AuthorTopic: What is best 256 color palette?  (Read 43093 times)

Offline Piotr

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #40 on: October 03, 2015, 07:24:58 pm
Expanded NES palette + programmer stuff (you can click images to zoom)

Offline Gil

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #41 on: October 04, 2015, 02:19:36 am
You should really respond to replies in your thread, what's the point of opening one otherwise? You complained that no one was trying to help, yet when I gave my opinion on your palette, you ignored it. Now Ptoing asks you a question, kindly asks again to reply and you just ignore him completely. So again, I wonder what you want to get out of this thread? It's very difficult for us to help you if you make it all so vague?

Offline Piotr

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #42 on: October 04, 2015, 06:25:17 am
You should really respond to replies in your thread, what's the point of opening one otherwise? You complained that no one was trying to help, yet when I gave my opinion on your palette, you ignored it. Now Ptoing asks you a question, kindly asks again to reply and you just ignore him completely. So again, I wonder what you want to get out of this thread? It's very difficult for us to help you if you make it all so vague?
Because I'm a kid, I keep forgetting such things. It was not my palette, but someone shared idea into web. I didn't ignore opinion, but I just considered it on mind. I was just thinking reply was not required. There is still my new palette without review.

Making a good palette is something you need to learn with practise. If you can not make a good palette for something specific from scratch, you wont be able to make a "best" palette. And again, "best" makes no sense in this case anyway.
What if I can borrow NES palette and extend it? I know it won't be best, but it will be very good. Or do you think it would be best?

But you have not answered my question as to why you want to do this yet.
Sorry, but too few information. I need a quote showing what I want to do.

EDIT: on the general topic of general 256color palettes, this looks interesting, and almost certainly better than the standard 6 6 6 or 8 8 4 colorcube palettes. My tests confirm it.
Thanks, I might consider it. This page reminded me of using 9-bit RGB and limiting 8 LSB combinations to 4 of them. In "Hardware Palette" section, red LSB was made by xoring green and blue LSBs:
00=000 (slighty dark or black)
01=101 (slighty magenta)
10=110 (slighty yellow)
11=011 (slighty cyan)

Offline Ai

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #43 on: October 04, 2015, 08:09:00 am
Making a good palette is something you need to learn with practise. If you can not make a good palette for something specific from scratch, you wont be able to make a "best" palette. And again, "best" makes no sense in this case anyway.
What if I can borrow NES palette and extend it? I know it won't be best, but it will be very good. Or do you think it would be best?

You still need to define 'best', since what palette is 'best' is a matter of application and personal taste.

For me, when I am considering generic palettes such as the one I linked above, I think in terms of minimizing visual error.

That is, my criteria is to take a large variety of images, quantize them to one palette and then to another; Compare those three sets (original, palette A, palette B); and the version which looks most like the original image, is the one I consider as 'better'.

Even in this example, it's apparent that simply 'best' is not a real thing; it is a process of finding two palettes, comparing their performance, and deciding that one achieves better performance than the other, for that specific usage.

Maybe this is a language-based misunderstanding, and the word you want is actually something different from 'best'?

Quote
Sorry, but too few information. I need a quote showing what I want to do.
What? He is asking YOU to explain what it is that you intend to do. You are asking about 'best palettes'. What is your purpose in asking that question?

To be clear: you can't simply 'have a best palette' that you use for everything. You can have a palette that you like and use for everything, but it cannot actually be 'best' for every use. All of the palettes we have considered so far will perform quite poorly when applied to a smooth airbrushed greyscale image, for example; but if you attempt to make them better at greyscale , then you will certainly make them worse for other uses.

Since that is the case, there is no possibility -- none -- for us to post any palette that is even 'good', never mind 'best'. Until you explain how you intend to use the palette.

If your intent is simply 'have a best 256color palette, and use it for everything' -- I'm afraid that is completely impossible. No such thing exists, and our current knowledge of human vision suggests that no one, no matter how clever, can ever invent one.

If your intent is more modest -- for example, you have a few particular projects you want to find a 'best' palette for.. That kind of thing is possible.
If that is your intent, please say so clearly.

Please excuse me for repeating myself, I just feel that I need to explain this idea in several different ways so that one of them will be communicated accurately to you.

Quote
EDIT: on the general topic of general 256color palettes, this looks interesting, and almost certainly better than the standard 6 6 6 or 8 8 4 colorcube palettes. My tests confirm it.
Thanks, I might consider it. This page reminded me of using 9-bit RGB and limiting 8 LSB combinations to 4 of them. In "Hardware Palette" section, red LSB was made by xoring green and blue LSBs:
00=000 (slighty dark or black)
01=101 (slighty magenta)
10=110 (slighty yellow)
11=011 (slighty cyan)
Yes, it's quite a clever solution.
However, it is not made by xoring green and blue LSBs, but red and blue LSBs. That's what the page says, at least.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 08:40:37 am by Ai »
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Piotr

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #44 on: October 04, 2015, 09:18:01 am
You still need to define 'best', since what palette is 'best' is a matter of application and personal taste.
You already know what is the meaning of single word "best". If you mean something different, use better wording, depending on what you mean:
"You still need to define 'best palette'."
"You still need to help define 'best' for some 4-year old kid with ideas."
Quote
EDIT: on the general topic of general 256color palettes, this looks interesting, and almost certainly better than the standard 6 6 6 or 8 8 4 colorcube palettes. My tests confirm it.
Thanks, I might consider it. This page reminded me of using 9-bit RGB and limiting 8 LSB combinations to 4 of them. In "Hardware Palette" section, red LSB was made by xoring green and blue LSBs:
00=000 (slighty dark or black)
01=101 (slighty magenta)
10=110 (slighty yellow)
11=011 (slighty cyan)
Yes, it's quite a clever solution.
However, it is not made by xoring green and blue LSBs, but red and blue LSBs. That's what the page says, at least.
Read closely:
Red_Bit_0 = Bit_2 XOR Bit_5
Red_Bit_1 = Bit_0
Red_Bit_2 = Bit_1
Green_Bit_0 = Bit_2
Green_Bit_1 = Bit_3
Green_Bit_2 = Bit_4
Blue_Bit_0 = Bit_5
Blue_Bit_1 = Bit_6
Blue_Bit_2 = Bit_7
It says Bit_2 XOR Bit_5. Bit_2 is green, while bit_5 is blue. But whether it's made by xoring one pair or another, it's same colors.

Offline Piotr

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #45 on: October 04, 2015, 10:50:52 am
Since that is the case, there is no possibility -- none -- for us to post any palette that is even 'good', never mind 'best'. Until you explain how you intend to use the palette.
I wish there was a web site where you can make and share palettes from 2 to 256/65536 colors (including a possibility to use png images containing all the colors in palette), uncompressed image formats (modes) to fit in some graphics memory size (for example 320x200 16 colors fits in 32KB), an adapter containing multiple of them and possibility to make images fitting these modes. Then the purpose of "best palette" is making images/game screenshots for this site. Then this thread could serve as place in which users could choose one of these suggestions.

Offline Ai

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #46 on: October 04, 2015, 12:29:34 pm
You still need to define 'best', since what palette is 'best' is a matter of application and personal taste.
You already know what is the meaning of single word "best". If you mean something different, use better wording, depending on what you mean:
"You still need to define 'best palette'."
"You still need to help define 'best' for some 4-year old kid with ideas."
'best palette' is what is implied by that sentence, yes.


[/quote]
Read closely:
Red_Bit_0 = Bit_2 XOR Bit_5
Red_Bit_1 = Bit_0
Red_Bit_2 = Bit_1
Green_Bit_0 = Bit_2
Green_Bit_1 = Bit_3
Green_Bit_2 = Bit_4
Blue_Bit_0 = Bit_5
Blue_Bit_1 = Bit_6
Blue_Bit_2 = Bit_7
It says Bit_2 XOR Bit_5. Bit_2 is green, while bit_5 is blue. But whether it's made by xoring one pair or another, it's same colors.
[/quote]
Oh, yes, sorry, I didn't notice that bit_2 was referenced twice.

Quote
I wish there was a web site where you can make and share palettes from 2 to 256/65536 colors (including a possibility to use png images containing all the colors in palette), uncompressed image formats (modes) to fit in some graphics memory size (for example 320x200 16 colors fits in 32KB), an adapter containing multiple of them and possibility to make images fitting these modes. Then the purpose of "best palette" is making images/game screenshots for this site. Then this thread could serve as place in which users could choose one of these suggestions.
Okay.  This is good, this is more definite.

In that case, it seems to me that you indeed are not really looking for a 'best' palette, but rather, want a collection of different 'good' ones. For example, Arne's 16color and 32color palettes seem like they would fit into your idea here, and so does the EGA 64color palette and even the CPC 27color palette. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of those.

A second point I wanted to raise is: I'm aware that support for palettes larger than 256colors is much rarer than palettes <=256colors. Have you looked into what software can perform the necessary adaptation?

I also wanted to ask if you have tried GrafX2's RGB restriction option?  It seems relevant to your broad goal of exploring these restricted palettes.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Piotr

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #47 on: October 04, 2015, 01:57:44 pm
Quote
I wish there was a web site where you can make and share palettes from 2 to 256/65536 colors (including a possibility to use png images containing all the colors in palette), uncompressed image formats (modes) to fit in some graphics memory size (for example 320x200 16 colors fits in 32KB), an adapter containing multiple of them and possibility to make images fitting these modes. Then the purpose of "best palette" is making images/game screenshots for this site. Then this thread could serve as place in which users could choose one of these suggestions.
Okay.  This is good, this is more definite.

In that case, it seems to me that you indeed are not really looking for a 'best' palette, but rather, want a collection of different 'good' ones. For example, Arne's 16color and 32color palettes seem like they would fit into your idea here, and so does the EGA 64color palette and even the CPC 27color palette. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of those.

A second point I wanted to raise is: I'm aware that support for palettes larger than 256colors is much rarer than palettes <=256colors. Have you looked into what software can perform the necessary adaptation?

I also wanted to ask if you have tried GrafX2's RGB restriction option?  It seems relevant to your broad goal of exploring these restricted palettes.
It's recommended that palette size is a power of two. E.g. if palette uses 10 colors, it either can be increased to 16 colors or requires inefficient modulo operations. The CPC palette can be increased to 32 colors, while filling in gaps (e.g. brown, two more grays, one desaturated color and ramp fill color).

Offline Ai

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #48 on: October 05, 2015, 12:12:31 am
... Do you even have a complete working system for this website, yet? Or, at least, profiling data for some working quantization code?

If you did, making it faster might be relevant.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 12:30:14 am by Ai »
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Piotr

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Re: What is best 256 color palette?

Reply #49 on: October 05, 2015, 08:27:54 am
... Do you even have a complete working system for this website, yet? Or, at least, profiling data for some working quantization code?

If you did, making it faster might be relevant.
I didn't say this website exists, just that I wish that it existed.