AuthorTopic: Bitten by the sidescroller bug... (Read 200112 times)

Howard Day · **on:** December 08, 2009, 07:09:47 pm

...and I cannot resist its call. This all started when a co-worker of mine sent me this link: http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x9ol42 - it's a pretty neat animation, with a really nice art style. I watched and instantly thought: "This would make an awesome side-scroller/platformer.."
I kinda forgot about it for a while, then started doodling on my new laptop - you know, just to try it out.
I came up with this:

using 3DSMax 2009, and some camera tricks to come up with the orthographic, angled camera. It sparked my interest, and I continued to mess about, till I got this:

Then I sent that over to the co-worker who originally sent the video. She liked it, but declared that it needed more "whimsy". I instantly agreed and started adding things to the scene in my mind - trees, planter boxes, skylights, flapping flags, more pipes, a lot more greenery, etc.
After an evening of work, it transformed into this:

And I'm really liking it! I'm sharing here to ask for more ideas, suggestions, whatever. I have no idea what this will transform into, or if I'll even get *part* of an actual game out of it. It might just turn into a gloriously long mock up.

I still have the foreground/background layers to do, and I have some awesome ideas on where to take them...but I'd love any suggestions from you guys.

happymonster · **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2009, 08:03:33 pm

This is really nice! I love the bright white lighting on the roof surfaces. However this does mean that the grey ground looks very dull in comparison. What about making the normal ground area brighter and have more variation in brightness due to kerbs, tiled areas, platforms, etc.. I'm thinking of some kind of desert / arabic architectural style and highly lit surfaces with the modern future buildings you have here.

Does that make sense?

Jakten · **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2009, 08:26:31 pm

Yeah I agree that the ground should be lighter, it looks like it is in shadows right now. Also maybe make some of the buildings at different distances? It looks weird to me that they are all in a straight line.. or maybe its just that there isn't much room for a player to move. This is looking fanatastic though, I really like the building with the 5 on it. Could you post some wireframes maybe? I'm interested to see how much of the details are textured.

Howard Day · **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2009, 09:37:24 pm

happymonster: Okay, good call. I had kinda been neglecting the roof surface itself - all the detail I'm putting in in other places, the roof should have some too, right? Anyway, I'm away from my primary computer right now, so I only have what I stuck on the jump drive this morning. Here's a shot of that scene with a brighter roof...no real additional detail, but a brighter roof.

or even one with a color-adjusted roof:

Jakten: The buildings are pretty similar right now, but there will be additional layers in the background to help deepen the scene. Right now I'm imagining this being very similar to metalslug in the gameplay arena - strictly 2d, with no movement into or out of the plane of play - those wooden platforms are supposed to represent the gameplay path in some subtle way. Anyway, luckily I have the scene with the building you're interested in here with me - here's the wireframe:
http://www.hedfiles.net/wire1.png

Thanks for the feedback - I'll work on adding interesting floor decorations tonight.

Manupix · **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2009, 10:45:16 pm

Wow, this looks great! And thanks for the video too.

The trees look too green and too leafy, I'd suggest to make them look more 'urban', with sparse greyish leaves.

The flags don't mean much to me, they distract from the futuristic feeling. No better idea yet though.

Jad · **Reply #5 on:** December 09, 2009, 04:43:12 pm

Greenery ... well. I don't think it's too lush. It's just too plastic.

It's harder than concrete and metal because it's partly transcluent and being backlit as it currently is the light would shine through and make it a very nice warm luminous green, while the tops of the leaves would have less saturation and more sky blue in them - all in all the green deep super saturated color you've got going on would .. never exist. Yup, that's right.

Howard Day · **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2009, 04:12:49 pm

Jad, good call. So I've altered the texture on the leaves, as well as done a first run on more detail on the ground...

But there's still something bothering me - I realized that the camera angle was a bit too high - like happymonster said, it looked like the character would have more room to move around than a straight line...

I also played with the translucent material on the leaves a bit more, and I'm much happier with it now...I realize that they're very lush - but that's part of the whimsy.

I dunno - that looks pretty good. The only thing I see myself now changing is the horizontal angle of the camera - right now you'd be looking at the back of the oncoming enemies, and the front of your character. I think I might need to reverse that.
Thoughts?

ptoing · **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2009, 06:22:12 pm

Looks quite nice. The flags look like orange bacon strips tho, dunno if that is good :/

I think the leaves are still a bit too noisy, perhaps you can tone that down somehow.

As far as perspective goes the bottom one looks good, but I would flip it so that the faces of the buildings you see are the left side and not the right.
This of course is assuming the player walks left to right.

Howard Day · **Reply #8 on:** December 10, 2009, 09:43:12 pm

Ptoing: Mmmmm, fly high the banner of bacon-y goodness! Let the kingdom of pork reign supreme! No, good call, I've swapped it out with something a little less abstract...

and one with the anti-aliasing turned on - should help kill some of the noise in the trees.

I also switch the viewpoint right to left. Much better I think. I also flipped the building. I may not do this on all the buildings I've made - I almost didn't on this one, but there was too much cool detail on the right side that got hidden.
Also - here's a shot at an explosion I'm working on - might be a bit big for a small enemy death, but one of the larger ones should be perfect.

Thoughts?

Conzeit · **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:14:54 am

I have to say this is looking pretty good

I also have to say that I think you should tweak your lighting.As nice as that backlit sillouethy thing you got looks, leaving most of your foreground to be lit only by ambient light really doesnt say whimsy to me....

Dusty · **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:18:04 am

I think this has a ton of Mirror's Edge vibe in terms of color scheme, and a hint of Dragonball Z building design... I'm not sure why I get that feeling but it just brings back memories for whatever reason. I also have to agree with Conceit though, having the foreground in the perspective of shadows doesn't make a lot of sense, and looked better prior to the camera change. I also think I liked it a bit better when the camera height and angle was a bit higher, as now it's a bit hard to even tell that the things on the ground are boards, if not for the original picture.

I think you should work on the timing of the explosion some. Maybe the explosion should be faster, while the smoke lingers a bit slower and longer.

Indigo · **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:24:12 am

I'm very interested in how you made the explosion - care to explain a bit?

Howard Day · **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2009, 02:05:42 am

Conceit: Yeah, it's waaay prettier the original way.

Dusty: I will definitely cop to being inspired by mirrors edge - it's such a very pretty game, it's hard not to be inspired by it. As for Dragonball Z...I've never seen it - and I dislike most anime, so I can't account for any similarities. And yeah, the explosion timing needs work - that's just a first run to get the particle systems worked out.
Indigo: Yeah, no problem. It's a series of 3dsMax particle effects, with some procedural materials applied - that's actually true of all these scenes and models - there's only one bitmap used, the flag, in the whole lot. If you're really interested in the specifics, and can get your hands on the trial version of 3DS, then I'd be happy to make the file available if you'd like.

Indigo · **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2009, 03:03:32 am

I'd certainly enjoy taking a look at that.

Edit: Looking at the scene, I'd love to see a parallax-scrolling background layer behind these pieces. A bluer-desaturated cityscape full of this style of buildings would be absolutely awesome.

Howard Day · **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2009, 04:47:13 am

Indigo: Cool, here's the file: http://www.hedfiles.net/explodedemo.zip - you'll need at least Max 2009 to run that.
I played with the timing of the explosion - I think it's improved.

I also found the time to make my first enemy - well, mostly, still playing with the animations...

DEATHBOT!

Thoughts?

Indigo · **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2009, 04:56:25 am

thoughts? I'm in love. Really. Everything is really well-designed and animated extremely well. I want to see all these dang models on my screen so I can analyze them! yarrgh! Thanks a ton for the file. i'm going to look it over after I find Max. (i've been modeling in lowly wings)

big brother · **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:00:17 am

Where have you been all my life?

Also, I admire your streamlined workflow. This is a big chunk of assets to get to a reasonably polished state in only a few days.

Dusty · **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:03:54 am

Hmm, something about that bot bugs me. Its movement is almost like a limp of sorts, rather than something you'd see on a similar spider...

WM · **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:12:10 am

Quote from: Dusty on December 11, 2009, 05:03:54 am

Hmm, something about that bot bugs me. Its movement is almost like a limp of sorts, rather than something you'd see on a similar spider...

I think it's because the legs dont alternate perfectly; it's more of a sluggish gallop rather than spider-steps.

Howard Day · **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2009, 07:15:01 am

Indigo:Hope you're able to make use of it.
big brother: Eating cheetos. Thanks - it's not nearly as hard as it looks...
Dusty, WM: Yup, you're right. That first was just a first pass...

Much better, I think.
Thoughts?

LoTekK · **Reply #20 on:** December 11, 2009, 08:08:14 am

That there is just sexy. Loving the visual style so far, and that spiderbot looks awesome. There's a part of me that prefers the more staccato movement of the previous animation, though. I think that would work better with a bit of cleanup.

Nice explosion, too, though there's arguably a bit too much flame action at the source. I think if you want to keep some fire going, don't animate them as quickly (their current timing makes them look more like weird firecrackers going off; though I suppose you could call them secondaries).

Got any concepts for the player character?

Howard Day · **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2009, 08:47:59 am

Okay...added the guns and a prelim firing animation...

Thoughts?

rikfuzz · **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2009, 09:02:10 am

Quote from: Howard Day on December 11, 2009, 08:47:59 am

Okay...added the guns and a prelim firing animation...

Thoughts?

I love this style. The muzzle flash seems to go backwards though, and emits no lighting atm. The animation of the recoil seems a little odd too though it's harder to explain why.

Ben2theEdge · **Reply #23 on:** December 11, 2009, 02:50:18 pm

I think you need to be careful not to run into visibility problems - your enemies and your buildings have the same color scheme. Combined that with the high saturation/contrast and intricate detail and you get a severe camoflauging effect.

Jad · **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2009, 03:54:08 pm

Yes, I was going to say that - did the same guy build all the buildings and the bots? Well sure, that guy was YOU in TEH REALITY but think about it - I'd like a different but complementary color scheme on the bot. ' D '

Ben2theEdge · **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2009, 04:34:59 pm

You might even be able to get away with just doing an inverse of the building color scheme - orange with gray details. that'd still be pretty close but it would be a bit improved

Howard Day · **Reply #26 on:** December 11, 2009, 07:01:16 pm

LoTekK: Hmm. Well, I'm sure I'm doing more than one variation on the spiderbot theme, so maybe the difference in walk cycles can be one of the identifying features? I'll keep messing about with the explosion, too - I agree with the flickering going on at the source - much too busy. As for the player character...I have some ideas, but nothing solid as of yet. He's gonna be slightly taller than the spiderbot, maybe at most half-again, and in some sort of suit.
Ben2theEdge, Jad: Yeah, I agree - these little guys just get lost in the background. Ben - your suggestion of flipping the color scheme seems to have worked (mostly) perfectly. Nice catch!

- added flash lighting effects...I'll also continue tweaking the recoil animation...

- and a test with the little buggers in the scene - I think they stand out nicely, now.
Thanks again, guys.

Pawige · **Reply #27 on:** December 11, 2009, 07:12:09 pm

I think the problem with the recoil is the strange chain of events. The gun fires, flash comes out, gun slides back, gun stops sliding back and then stops and suddenly swings up. I would suggest either swinging them up immediately, or just ditch that entirely and just have the slide back. I really really really love this. Can't wait to see more!

CrazyMLC · **Reply #28 on:** December 12, 2009, 04:35:29 am

I have little to no experience in 3D, but I can say that looks amazing. I can imagine playing this on the PS3, and the graphics rival most of the games I have.
I can see very little similarity between your art and the video, but it seems to have sparked some amazing creativity!
I really like how this is coming along, and I hope you make more!

What I can say is that the new color scheme has made the bot much easier to see, and the walker seems to walk funny, for most 4 legged animals its left-front, right-back, right-front, left-back, mainly for stability.
To me, at least, how you have it looks unnatural, but still manages to work! I still think it needs some fine-tuning, however.
The guns look very precarious, lolling about, etc. Its a nice effect but seems a little exaggerated.

Tuna Unleashed · **Reply #29 on:** December 12, 2009, 05:59:10 am

this is absolutely gorgeous. I love how much atmosphere and style you convey without any really off the wall effects or cellshading.

9_6 · **Reply #30 on:** December 12, 2009, 06:05:15 am

The 3-coloured kind of thing you have going on reminds me more of mirrors edge where everything is red, white and blue rather than what I have seen in that video.

publicenemy1 · **Reply #31 on:** December 12, 2009, 09:16:19 pm

Hi Howard,

the mockup looks very professional. What happened to your Possible Space Shooter Mockup... ? Is that game still in the making?
I work as a programmer for other kind of software but lurking to get a opportunity to work on a game.

So if you need someone for a game prototyp please send me a mail.

Splode · **Reply #32 on:** December 13, 2009, 03:34:17 am

Absolutely beautiful.

The weapon needs a lot of work though.
- The bug braces too quickly.
- The gun's delayed recoil after firing is both odd and also excessive. Maybe if you had the gun on a sliding mechanism, so it moves backwards when it fires, rather than upwards after it fires (which looks unnatural)
- This is just a possibility, but maybe the guns swing around too much when the bug walks?
- The entire fire animation seems to happen too quickly. Let us enjoy those fantastic effects for a little more than that split second!

Howard Day · **Reply #33 on:** December 13, 2009, 09:16:41 pm

Pawige:Yeah, I think I exaggerated the firing movement too much...Here's an update.

, and I'm glad you like it - I gotta say, it would be nearly as cool without all the feedback I've been getting - and for that I thank you!
CrazyMLC: Thanks! I dunno if I am gonna change the walk order, but I agree on the guns....re-do:

Tuna Unleashed: Aaah, the wonders of radiosity.

9_6: Yeah, I went ack and looked at the video again, and was kinda surprised how little it resembled what I had come up with...
publicenemy1: Thanks. The space shooter thing is pretty stalled right now - I think it a combo of both I and DKH being distracted by other things...as for you kind offer, I think I shall have to turn you down at this point - I already have far too many projects I'm working on where people are depending on me to deliver assets - I'd hate to add yet another one to the list of disappointments.
Splode:I hope the previous 2 animations meet your expectations. As for slowing it down, I dunno - I've had the experience that whenever I slow animations down to showcase the awesomeness that occurs, it always looks really weird in game...Nevertheless, here are the newest animations at half speed...

And the latest version of the explosion:

and one with a little moar whumpff at the begining.

I'm working on the background buildings right now...

I know about the tree. Already fixed!

Conzeit · **Reply #34 on:** December 14, 2009, 11:38:20 pm

I recently looked into the original vid a little more...to be honest with ya, I originally thought that your interpretation had no true connection with the short (which plays a bit more like an intro).

http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x9ol42 what's most like your background is the shot at 0:07 and the architecture is all slightly wonky, it was hand drawn and it shows...I believe you should tweak the verticals of your building so that it isnt really vertical, so that it looks just a little off. Also....you should keep in mind all of the buildings in the original have a very artisan looking aspect to them, unlike your building which somewhat feels prefabricated, it feels like a futuristic fantasy prop that could be maybe in megaman or similar.

There is a feeling of childlike curiosity all over the short which is wholly missing from the mockup. When I think of a game version of the short, I think http://adamatomic.com/canabalt/ only less punishing and with a bit of exploration into it...

The distancing from the short is also true for the spider sprite. If you want to keep the same kind of ambience I think you need a few hand drawn elements in the sprites or atleast elements that imitate hand drawn stuff (think viewtiful joe's scarf) or maybe the ocassional cel shaded element

I dont even know if you're going for the short's ambience anymore but I wanted to give u ideas in case you did even in the slightest. With work of this scope I feel the need to make crits of the same kind of scope :p it's all as inspring to me as the original short was to you and I wouldnt know where to start to do something like this, much kudos

Howard Day · **Reply #35 on:** December 15, 2009, 12:53:19 am

Conceit: I gotta say...I'm pretty content with going my own way on this one. The original video was great for inspiration, but the goal was never to copy it 1-to-1. I've done far too much of that in my artistic career, and its good to go my own way a bit on this one. I love that it inspired me to start the project, but I hold no more loyalty to the original video than that.

Conexion · **Reply #36 on:** December 15, 2009, 06:47:32 am

Brilliant work. I love how cohesive it all feels, and the style is wonderful. I must ask, how do you keep the render colors so consistent? I use Cinema 4D myself, but have had the same troubles in my experience with 3DMax. I find I can either shade the models by hand without lighting, or use a standard light and get a million shades.

Great work though. Have you considered maybe making the shadows have a ting of blue to complement all of the orange going on?

CrazyMLC · **Reply #37 on:** December 15, 2009, 07:08:29 am

Speaking of blue, the blue on the spiders is very dull but they look like they should be sci-fi glowy lights.

Howard Day · **Reply #38 on:** December 15, 2009, 10:12:47 pm

Conexion: Thanks. As for the render colors, that's a combination of an orthographic camera ( one with a viewing angle of effectively 0 degrees) and a Directional light (light with no position in the world, just an incoming angle). I let the advance lighting/radiosity do all the cool bounce lights and color bleeds. Not nearly as tricky as you might imagine. The shadows are quite blue-purple right now, and I think they're saturated enough. if not, I can always up that at a later date...
CrazyMLC: yeah, ever since I switched 'em over from red they've been sort of lost. Here's an update:

along with the inspiration to up the interest in the blue lights was the decision to change the muzzle flash to orange/green. Looks much more Raptor:Call of the shadows-y now...

And I thought I'd give you all a bit more of a look under the hood - here's the spider bot animation at it's original resolution:

And he are two untouched render frames direct from MAX..

And all together now!

Conexion · **Reply #39 on:** December 15, 2009, 10:18:03 pm

Awesome stuff! Good to hear, I'll need to play with that myself

And I should have clarified - I meant the shadows cast by the spider-bot guys.

Howard Day · **Reply #40 on:** December 15, 2009, 10:18:56 pm

Ahhh, yes. That is an issue. I shall see what I can do.

Okay - added some color to the bot's shadow... Not nearly as easy as I thought it'd be. Joy.

And in the scene -

CrazyMLC · **Reply #41 on:** December 15, 2009, 10:58:29 pm

The hull, especially close up, seems rather shapeless. I think it might look better with some accenting bumps on it.

And the legs also have a similar problem...

EDIT: Blast! Photobucket strikes again! Sorry about the jpg.

Gil · **Reply #42 on:** December 15, 2009, 11:17:03 pm

I just realised that Larwick would love this

It's like Rustbug: the movie or something.

I love reading these posts. Thanks for the full renders, very delicious to look at. I'll start dishing out comments if I see something go wrong, but for now, I think you're on top of it.

Howard Day · **Reply #43 on:** December 15, 2009, 11:39:02 pm

Ah, Rustbug. Believe me, I was not trying to copy that.

CrazyMLC: I'm gonna leave the shape as is. For reasons already brought up by Ben2theEdge, the more detail I add, the more difficult it will be to read the shape of this think against the background. As it is right now I feel like it's at the bare minimum of readability - any more detail and it'll just be lost. That's my feeling on it, anyhow.

ndchristie · **Reply #44 on:** December 16, 2009, 12:02:32 pm

About the firing - it's a little odd. Basically the flash shouldn't move with the recoil, and the recoil should be pretty much instant. Right now it's a bit slow, and the flash somehow changes position like it's a solid object.

here's how i might do it with 3 references i found after (turns out on film the flash pretty much happens with the gun still in place, this might be the way to animate too)

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2007/2/Slow-Motion-Muzzleflash-227935.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GljxcqqNeYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOvqG_eTxq4

CrazyMLC · **Reply #45 on:** December 16, 2009, 10:47:23 pm

Guns really only flip up when being fired because of the way the wrist reacts to the force of the gun pushing back, and because the pivot point of the gun is on the handle, meaning the point that is actually firing is above the pivot point, meaning the gun will alway shoot up a bit.

For the muzzle flash its really just a flame being ejected out of the muzzle, right? I would imagine it would leave a trail of fire.

ndchristie · **Reply #46 on:** December 16, 2009, 11:52:08 pm

I took the more classic recoil motion (which relies on the way the wrist moves) because it is recognizable, but that's really not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the fact that the energy blast is made up of particles which are not attached to the gun, and would flare out from where they were emitted and not drag back with the gun in recoil as they are currently.

CrazyMLC · **Reply #47 on:** December 17, 2009, 12:04:42 am

Yeah, I was just pointing out the mechanics, and if you look at the graphics of the spider-bot the hinge holding the gun is below the barrel, so the gun should, in theory, tilt up a bit, unless the hinges really tighten up for shooting or something.

Howard Day · **Reply #48 on:** December 17, 2009, 01:54:33 am

ndchristie: Thanks for that. I'll see what I can do to adjust the fire animation. More lag on the muzzle flash. I'll also be putting together an idle animation tonight.
CrazyMLC: Yeap, the gun recoil needs some work, too.

And here's what I did today, so far: New background

And re-vamped the first background

So, gonna head out for a bit, then check back in with some new animations...hopefully.
EDIT:
Boom.

Okay, and he idle animation:

- and everything together!

Jakten · **Reply #49 on:** December 17, 2009, 07:39:03 am

Wow Howard this is absolutely astounding, I could watch this mech all day the walking animation looks fantastic!

Watching your most recent firing animation the kick back seems weird. It looks okay on the machine but the guns should kick back sooner I think. I think it might make it look like it has more force.

Can't wait to see the idle animation!

LoTekK · **Reply #50 on:** December 17, 2009, 08:27:46 am

What might help with the firing animation is a slight alteration to the the timing. Try having the guns straighten out before/during the "crouch". Right now it feels a little odd because it's almost as if the bot is sliding forward in order for the weapon to stabilise/straighten. Having it straighten earlier also allows you to make the recoil kick in earlier as well.

WM · **Reply #51 on:** December 17, 2009, 05:15:17 pm

Quote from: Howard Day on December 17, 2009, 01:54:33 am

...
Okay, and he idle animation:
...

Right now the it seems as though he's flinching/jerking himself around. Instead of having the legs moving the body in the idle, have the body slightly rock, which in turn moves the legs. The legs should follow the body's movement.

Not only am I astounded by the quality of your work, but how fast you can produce it! It's insanely productive!

CrazyMLC · **Reply #52 on:** December 17, 2009, 09:01:13 pm

Maybe you want to add in a looking animation with the little headlight on the front?

For an actual idle animation in an actual game you probably want to make a long idle animation along with a few little quirks to lead up to, like standing for a while, then a random quirk, like looking around.

You might want to make a starting/stopping walking animation, you could use the stopping right before the shooting to get rid of that slight choppiness.

(Getting so attached to this little guy.

)

Howard Day · **Reply #53 on:** December 18, 2009, 01:14:39 am

Jakten , LoTeKK: Both excellent suggestions. Here's the re-vamped firing animation...

WM: Good crit - I've attempted to address that here:

- much less movement overall.
CrazyMLC: Multiple idle animations is a great idea. I'll get on that after I do the next thing on my list - the spider-bot projectile, and impact animations...
Everything stuck together.

Thoughts?

CrazyMLC · **Reply #54 on:** December 18, 2009, 02:23:24 am

Seems much more like an idling robot than a hyper-active child.

Shooting animation looks much better as well.

Really great work, always a treat to look at. Here's hoping for more!

LoTekK · **Reply #55 on:** December 18, 2009, 02:33:53 am

Hell yeah! That's feeling all powerful and punchy now.

Also, I'm generally a fan of OTT muzzle flashes, so the one you've got warms my heart, being all blindingly-bright and huge. :p

Howard Day · **Reply #56 on:** December 18, 2009, 05:15:48 am

Thanks, guys. I'm glad I'm finally starting to hit all the right notes.

And here's where I got with the weapon effects...

Thoughts?

EDIT: Stuck another option for the weapon blast up there.

Jakten · **Reply #57 on:** December 18, 2009, 05:41:20 am

Ohh man! That firing animation has so much power now, I love it!

The effects look great but the energy it shoots looks kinda noisy, it might not look to bad up against its proper background though. I gues it depends on what kind of energy its shooting as well, right now it kind of looks liek electricity which is fine if that's what you wanted. I think if you wanted it to look like fire it should have more flow to it.

I think the reason why the idle animation looks twitchy is because it has a recognizable beginning and end. I think it would look nice some where in between the 2 you posted with a seamless loop. I liked how the legs seemed to move randomly in the first which you didn't really do in the second one.

By the way are you acctually planning on programming this into a game or is this just generally a mock up? Because I really want to play this!

Also do you have ideas for a main character? I was wondering if you plan to take inspiration for him or her from Baidir as well.

Lord Ash · **Reply #58 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:16:44 am

thank you so much, I have been trying to get here with bryce and poser for a long time. I am glad to see other using 3d to help them, I am doing my best to understand what is different about these from mine, and between all the different versions.

Howard Day · **Reply #59 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:19:25 am

Jakten: Thanks! I stuck an updated version of the fired bolt in the last post. I agree with you - it looks really noisy and undefined. I will revisit that idle animation tonight. I have a couple ideas of specific animations I can do to split up the idle animations...
As of right now, this is just a mock-up. I'll see how much farther I get...that will decide whether or not I try and put an actual game together. As for the main character, I have a confession to make - I don't have a lot of character skills. I may try and put a human character together, but I have some ideas closer to a dude-in-a-suit, which would make the animation a hell of a lot easier for me. But I'm more than willing to try and expand my skills.
Lord Ash: Not sure I understood your post...are you asking for a rundown of all the different 3d programs?
Anyhow, here are 2 more variations on the bolt impact, as well as a mid-air collision version. I stuck the original in there for reference...

Thoughts?

CrazyMLC · **Reply #60 on:** December 19, 2009, 12:54:05 am

Well, I would imagine the smoke would inherit the velocity of the projectile, meaning it would fly over to the left. Also, most explosions make big shockwaves, so the smoke would be subject to a lot of force, and remember, hot air rises. I'd imagine this plasma smoke (HUZZAH!) would be super heated, so it would also be rising pretty quickly.

The last thing I dislike about the smoke is that is seems to be a lot of blocks of smoke compacted together, smoke is a gas, so it could be seen as a large solid object with parts separating off of it.
(My best example I have on hand):

(Hooray for 3 year old easytoon animation!)

Howard Day · **Reply #61 on:** December 19, 2009, 01:57:28 am

CrazyMLC: Okay. Here are some updated versions. I also decided to make the big, main explosion less realistic than it's previously been... Curlicues!

And in the environment:

Any better?

WM · **Reply #62 on:** December 19, 2009, 02:20:55 am

That smoke is pretty washed out; unless it would go against the specific garaphical style you're working with, I suggest putting some darker purple in there (particularly near the end of the explosion).

ptoing · **Reply #63 on:** December 19, 2009, 05:23:16 am

That is true. Explosion smoke usually is very dark, pretty much black.

That said the explosions look really cool, tho I have to say the small lighter stuff you have in front of it at the bottom does nothing for me, I'd like to see how it looks without that.

Conzeit · **Reply #64 on:** December 20, 2009, 01:10:08 am

all this stuff is looking amazing....really incredible, you're actually making me feel pretty obsolete O_O

I agree about the darker explosion smoke, also if there's any way you could have swirls of smoke as the smoke fades away it will strenghten the effect.

The projectile is the one that needs most help, I would suggest you make it pulse instead of throwing all those particle backwards...think of hotaru's projectile (alt link) in Garou Mark Of the wolves.....

This is slight but I think the way the smoke in the spider's smoke effect also goes too fast from white to dark gray, it looks amateur compared to your energy projectile impact explosion

Howard Day · **Reply #65 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:11:03 am

WM: Yeah, good call. I was trying for a more whimsical explosion feel...but that obviously wasn't working.
ptoing: Well, I didn't go all the way black, but I went much darker. A also minimized the white bits in the foreground.

I've also spent hours dicking around with GraphicsGale, trying to get it to interpret the alpha in my exported frames properly. It seems an utter crapshoot - sometimes it will work fine, with no tweaking whatsoever, but sometimes I simply cannot get it to recognize any color but pure white as the transparent color. Which screws up the hotspots on the explosions. I apologize for the anomaly, but I am at my wits end on how to fix the darn thing.
Conceit:Thanks, man. Here's an updated version of the projectile...

And I also did another idle animation - although this is more of a "taunt" animation...

I imagine this being accompanied by a loud electronic roar.
And the new anim in a sequence:

Thoughts?

CrazyMLC · **Reply #66 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:28:55 am

Smoke looks much better. Taunt animation is kick-ass.

alspal · **Reply #67 on:** December 21, 2009, 04:42:09 am

The first explosion is looking a lot better. I'm not sure about how it contract's after expanding - doesn't make much sense to me? Or do explosions actually do that?

Jakten · **Reply #68 on:** December 21, 2009, 05:06:00 pm

Yeah I think when an explosion dies out it usually continues to expand or rise unless it is full of debris then it will sink down with some smoke still rising.

I think it looks okay though, usually when something explodes the smoke doesn't dissipate very fast and he can't keep the smoke on screen for very long because it will be distracting. I think it might look better if it dissipated outwards though, possibly rolling upwards.

Some reference
Another with falling debris

micintexp · **Reply #69 on:** December 21, 2009, 06:23:52 pm

May I ask a question so all of these are made from GraphicsGale O.O?

Thats so damn awesome for making it with such a program :O

ptoing · **Reply #70 on:** December 21, 2009, 06:41:27 pm

Looking much better

About the transparency issue, couldn't you render it in max against a background colour which you don't use otherwise without the stuff antialiasing on the outside?
That should fix your problems pretty well i would say

(In case it works)

Opacus · **Reply #71 on:** December 21, 2009, 11:57:15 pm

I think this isn't really allowed, but, I just want to express my love for this.

I don't have any critique, just love.

The models are amazing. Well designed, great colour scheme, fantastic animation. Reminds me of Larwick's rustbug, cept in 3d.
Really, really cool.

Howard Day · **Reply #72 on:** December 22, 2009, 08:09:22 am

CrazyMLC, Opacus:Thanks, glad you like!
alspal:yeah, it's a function and result of how I was doing the particle effects... here's an update.

Jakten:Thanks for the ref!
micintexp : The images are assembled in Graphicsgale and exported to GIF format. They're initially generated in 3DSMax 2009.
ptoing: Sort of. The problem is that these particle systems use filtered textures for the explosions, and if I turn that off it looks really bad. With that on, however, I have no control over the interaction with the background. At this point I've just turned the alpha off.
So, made a new enemy! Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the BUMBLEBOT!

endless_dark · **Reply #73 on:** December 22, 2009, 08:21:43 am

I see awesome stuff here, keep it on cause this is gettin epic

Opacus · **Reply #74 on:** December 22, 2009, 10:23:30 am

I think you're having some transparecy problems with the explosions.
Your background is probably white, and lightest colour in the explosion is also white. So now there's some strange holes in the explosions.

CrazyMLC · **Reply #75 on:** December 22, 2009, 10:28:55 am

I think the wings should be translated into 3D rather than 2D effect.

Howard Day · **Reply #76 on:** December 22, 2009, 05:51:28 pm

endless_dark: Thanks, glad you like it.
Opacus: Yeah, as I mentioned in my previous posts, I've been having some very annoying problems in GraphicsGale when I import and try and color-reduce to b-bit. I've updated the explosions, but now all the smoke seems fun-kay. Can't win for losing, it seems.
CrazyMLC: Uhhh, what? They are a 3d object - twin rotor blades to be precise. Here's the animation at a higher res, and one of the frames from the animation...

Does that help explain what's going on? I think I may have overdone it a bit. If it's not immediately obvious what the moving parts are, I may have to reconsider how this is put together...

CaKsTeR · **Reply #77 on:** December 22, 2009, 07:52:55 pm

There's a pause in the blades at the loop frame, breaks the sequence a bit.

Looking amazing though

Sherman Gill · **Reply #78 on:** December 22, 2009, 08:20:27 pm

In the small animation it's impossible to see that the near rotor overlaps the robot. If you make that more visible I think that will solve your clarity issues?

Howard Day · **Reply #79 on:** December 22, 2009, 10:05:37 pm

Better?

ptoing · **Reply #80 on:** December 22, 2009, 10:10:53 pm

Much better. You still have issues with the transparency tho. Hm, idea. Couldn't you render stuff twice? once render the image without alpha or whatever, and then render a 2nd pass where the model or particles are fully white and the background is black or other way round and then use that as alpha mask.

Howard Day · **Reply #81 on:** December 23, 2009, 03:27:59 am

Well, ptoing, the actual rendered frames exported from MAX are fine. The only transparent issues I'm having are in regards to showing you fine folks the animated results of my work...a minor annoyance when it comes down to it.
So - first pass on the firing animation:

Thoughts?

ptoing · **Reply #82 on:** December 23, 2009, 03:37:22 am

Shot looking good. For the rotors I would probably render them seperatly and have them be 50% or so transparent in game on top of the sprite, I think that would look more effective.

CrazyMLC · **Reply #83 on:** December 23, 2009, 04:44:06 am

Ahhh, the rotors make much more sense now.

I think it would look much better if the hydrolic cylinder was holding the gun in place, so the awkward recoil that I see doesn't happen, and the bee just swings back a bit. I'm also thinking a smaller 'caliber' should be shot from the swarms of bees, maybe more machine gun style?

Zoggles · **Reply #84 on:** December 23, 2009, 07:22:29 am

I haven't actually commented here, but have been lurking and watching the development. I seriously love the style you have got going on here particularly you mechanised enemies.

The Bumblebot: I love the overall composition and especially the design. Nice powerful sting that beast has. As for CrazyMLC's comment about the smaller caliber.. I think that would best be left to a Waspbot cousin of this one. The rotors still have slight readability issues though.. I had to look at all the various images of it to fully appreciate them. Are both rotors spinning the same direction? Just wondering if making one clockwise the other anti-clockwise would help or hinder.

The Deathbot: Beautiful movement - especially the 'taunt' animation. The only thing that I find awkward is the huge amount of flash on the hull. It seems rather excessive for the size of gun mounted on the top. While it might give a great effect when you only have the one enemy (like you did at the time) I can't help but feel this 'huge' flash will diminish the fear induced by potentially bigger weaponry on later enemies. In fact, the guns do seem smaller than the cannon on the bumblebot yet the kick and flash are much stronger.

Buildings/Scenery: The almost toy-like appearance works so well and adds so much charm. I can almost imagine you posted scenes as a panoramic 360° scene from walking around the top one such large building.

-Z-

Ultimaodin · **Reply #85 on:** December 24, 2009, 04:53:51 pm

Okay I want to say how simply amazing this is!

for the bug bot I'd suggest making the wings thinner but longer. This should then improve the readability, not to mention it usually gives off a false perseptions that te blades spin faster. (due to the fact that the outer circle of the blades have a father distance to travel in the same period of time.

A for the firing, I think it would be better off with some sort of mini gun or another mini-projectile that doesn't have such a large single shot recoil. (that woul make keeping flight rather difficult.)

Plus the variety of weaponry will make the enemies more unique.

Ok so you got a spider and bee/wasp. Now if only you had a centipede.

Seriously though keep up the good work.

rikfuzz · **Reply #86 on:** December 24, 2009, 05:06:12 pm

Quote from: Howard Day on December 23, 2009, 03:27:59 am

Well, ptoing, the actual rendered frames exported from MAX are fine. The only transparent issues I'm having are in regards to showing you fine folks the animated results of my work...a minor annoyance when it comes down to it.

If you mean the ingame sprites are using alpha, then show the animations on a non-transparent background, so your alpha pixels don't go solid. I think you're getting a lot of crit on how the blur looks in the 1bit transparency gif rather than how it'll look ingame.

Howard Day · **Reply #87 on:** December 24, 2009, 10:58:25 pm

ptoing: Thanks. That may end up being what I have to do.
CrazyMLC: Thanks. As for the awkward recoil...that's kinda the effect I'm going for. I'm not expecting something called a "BumbleBot" to be particularly badass. I *like* that it looks somewhat unstable.
Zoggles: Thanks. The rotors are counter-rotating right now - that's the only thing that makes sense, given torque issues. As for your (and others) concern that the flash might be to impressive...well, that just means I need to step it up on the big bad boys later on, right?

That is a challenge I think I will enjoy. As for the roof bits - I'll be making and showing some roof edges and transitions to break everything up.
Ultimaodin:Thanks. I kinda like the width of rotors as they are - that they look almost too small to actually keep it in the air, is awesome to me. Really adds in the "bumble" part of the bumblebot. As for the width of the blurred portion of the rotors, good call. I'll narrow that down pronto.
I like the Centipede idea. Maybe for a boss?

Okay, so all the transparency issues have driven me a bit nuts. I've started using another gif-making program to try and get around them. This particular program also supports APNG, so if you have a browser that supports it, you should see correct-alpha animated version of the GIFs.

How's that work for everyone?

Photocopier · **Reply #88 on:** December 24, 2009, 11:24:27 pm

Using opera here and it works fine, good job btw

Lizzrd · **Reply #89 on:** December 25, 2009, 12:10:35 am

Looks much better than previous versions.

Howard Day · **Reply #90 on:** December 25, 2009, 12:55:33 am

Okay, that's good to hear.
Here's an update of the bumblebot with new rotors..

The projectile for the spiderbot:

And the various explosions...

Thoughts?

Ultimaodin · **Reply #91 on:** December 25, 2009, 02:06:49 am

Wow the level of epicness just doubled, and these were already pretty Epic. The new APGN's look sweet. What program are you using for the APNG's? I'm sick of using Jasc animation shop still.

I like the new rotors, they look smaller and don't lap the character much but I find them more distinguishable. Good job.

Conzeit · **Reply #92 on:** December 25, 2009, 02:07:05 am

Did you only apply alpha to that projectile? I have to say that projectile is looking much much better, though the opposite is true for the blasts, dont go overboard with the alpha...

Howard Day · **Reply #93 on:** December 27, 2009, 01:29:37 am

Ultimaodin: Glad you like. For the APNGs, I'm using GIF Movie Gear - the demo version, currently, but I think I'll purchase the full. I am glad the new rotors read well, it was becoming a major concern of mine...
Conceit: Yep, those are what the exported sprites from MAX look like, just animated. when you say don't go overboard on the alpha on the explosions...what do you mean exactly? The explosions do need to fade out, right? I'm not sure what you meant by this.
Anyhow. Been going kinda slow, just done another couple of play area art pieces.

I think I need to do a projectile for the bumblebot, a taunt/alt idle animation, and a death animation. I also need to come up with another enemy type - on the light/melee only type. I'm thinking something buld around a rolly-polly, with a green lighting taser attached.

Ah, yes. Then I need to make the player character. I've kinda been putting that off because I'm not completely certain about the colors and style, but I think I'm snagged onto an awesome idea and I probably need to run with it.

7321551 · **Reply #94 on:** December 27, 2009, 02:26:43 am

I truly like this.
I thought the same thing about the explosions.

Quote from: Howard Day on December 24, 2009, 10:58:25 pm

This one seems sharp when it fades out, and the small clouds are visible as discrete units. Very appealing.

Quote from: Howard Day on December 25, 2009, 12:55:33 am

In comparison, this one seems less sharp, almost airbrushed.

Also, when designing the backgrounds, particularly the buildings, you might want to consider methods of faking perspective utilized by old games, such as the selective angling of elements... here's an example.

Howard Day · **Reply #95 on:** December 27, 2009, 03:52:16 am

That demonstrates it perfectly. Luckily, changing one number fixes it handily. I've also lightened up the smoke a bit - It was too realistic as it was, and I kinda liked the...goofy looking version more. Not a big change, but there you go.

And I gave the BumbleBolt a shot.

It's close to the spiderbot, but the real difference will be in the impact animation.

Thoughts?

Conzeit · **Reply #96 on:** December 27, 2009, 06:20:01 am

what I meant was that I liked the explosions when they faded out by chunks without alpha http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=9591.msg105083#msg105083 it looks unique and pixelart-y.

The alpha fadeout looks more commonplace...I might be alone in that but that's what I think...honestly the new explosions I think have only improved in having darker smoke, the rest looks too unspecific to me. if you were to use the alpha smoke, I think it'd be a better use to have a smoked piece of the floor keep on releasing that translucent smoke for a while, that helps it look realistic (I've been to riots and even small potato bombs leave smoke for a while)

Howard Day · **Reply #97 on:** December 27, 2009, 08:27:12 am

Conceit: I see. Well, I'll do another pass and see if I can come up with the look you're expecting.
Anyhow, I did a pass on a bumblebot taunt animation.

Thoughts?

Lizzrd · **Reply #98 on:** December 27, 2009, 09:51:03 am

Can't see the images.

Gil · **Reply #99 on:** December 27, 2009, 06:40:44 pm

Firefox 2 displays static images instead of animated. Can someone confirm that Firefox 3 shows these?

Howard Day · **Reply #100 on:** December 27, 2009, 06:49:31 pm

I'm using Firefox 3.5.6, and they show up just fine.

CrazyMLC · **Reply #101 on:** December 27, 2009, 07:44:01 pm

Chrome over here, static images.

Photocopier · **Reply #102 on:** December 27, 2009, 08:20:30 pm

Opera version 10.10 is still showing everything absolutely perfectly.
I like how the taunt looks but I'm not exactly sure how it would work ingame, When do they taunt you?

Dusty · **Reply #103 on:** December 28, 2009, 01:58:00 am

Quote from: Howard Day on December 27, 2009, 08:27:12 am

Conceit: I see. Well, I'll do another pass and see if I can come up with the look you're expecting.

I agree with him. The new smoke fades into airbrushed clouds instead of the crisp pre-rendered look of the rest of the images. It's way out-of-place, and even if it wasn't for the game, half of the animation is crisp and solid and then the last half is a blur of clouds.

Howard Day · **Reply #104 on:** December 28, 2009, 08:30:28 am

Alrighty, here's an updated look at the explosions, as well as a first pass on the bumblebolt impact anim...

That more what you guys are looking for?

Lazycow · **Reply #105 on:** December 28, 2009, 02:00:00 pm

Quote from: Gil on December 27, 2009, 06:40:44 pm

Firefox 2 displays static images instead of animated. Can someone confirm that Firefox 3 shows these?

Seems like these are PNG-anims. Firefox 3 can display them, while programs which do not support png-anim, are only displaying the placeholder-image in the PNG-file.

ndchristie · **Reply #106 on:** December 28, 2009, 03:23:15 pm

I feel like the explosions were pretty good about halfway through, but that they took a major turn south when you started applying light to them. They became incredible hard shapes that don't make much sense I feel.

Dust is not a very hard material even when it's quite thick, and it tends to be extremely matte (because it lacks a surface), see if you can't get them to stack so that there's basically 2 zone (smoke in light on top, smoke below that's shadowed) with very rare instances of lighter or darker where it's particularly sculptural.

Howard Day · **Reply #107 on:** December 28, 2009, 07:36:39 pm

You guys are very difficult to please. I like it.

So, here's the latest version, trying to please everyone:

How's that for an attempt?

Conzeit · **Reply #108 on:** December 28, 2009, 09:24:21 pm

lil wasp dude is perfect now...I think among aniPNG and the alpha explosions everyone's neglected to say that :p. I agree with Adrias, the light effects and the alpha dissolution on the explosions took the fun out of them, do you have the 3d versions of the ones I linked to anymore? The new ones seem bubbly as they fade out....and the fire is also meh-er

Howard Day · **Reply #109 on:** December 29, 2009, 05:08:07 am

Once more, unto the explosions.

Better?

Xion · **Reply #110 on:** December 29, 2009, 05:56:25 am

Quote from: Howard Day on December 28, 2009, 07:36:39 pm

You guys are very difficult to please. I like it.
So, here's the latest version, trying to please everyone:

How's that for an attempt?

This one was my favorite. The newer, lighter ones look bubbly. Bubbly in a different way than this one. Bubbly in the kind of way kids blow clouds of bubbles, only a little more violent and with a bang.

CaKsTeR · **Reply #111 on:** December 29, 2009, 06:17:50 am

Agree with Xion, the newest version looks like bubbles dissipitating into nothing. I think you were better off with the one previous to it.

I'd criticize more, except that I can't find anything wrong with any of the animations. I'll leave the nit-picking to the pros

.TakaM · **Reply #112 on:** December 29, 2009, 06:42:45 am

Quote from: Howard Day on December 29, 2009, 05:08:07 am

These ones almost look like they belong underwater.

Quote from: Howard Day on December 27, 2009, 03:52:16 am

I think these are the best ones.

Keep up the amazing work btw.

edit-
Consider this a vote for #2, the translucent smoke shows more depth and ultimately fades away the smoothest, I think #3's smoke is too solid and would look rather distracting in game.
But to be honest, any of them would be fine

twodayslate · **Reply #113 on:** December 29, 2009, 06:52:03 am

Quote from: .TakaM on December 29, 2009, 06:42:45 am

These ones almost look like they belong underwater.

Keep up the amazing work btw.

Could not agree more!

Howard Day · **Reply #114 on:** December 29, 2009, 08:19:42 am

Wow. Okay, seems like everyone has a different take on how these things should look. Well, I'm putting it to a vote.

1:

2:

3:

4:

And if there's no clear winner, then I most likely will just choose one. Right now I'm pretty much leaning towards #3. In the mean time, I'm going to lave it alone for a good long while. I'm going a bit insane doing all these variations.

9_6 · **Reply #115 on:** December 29, 2009, 08:24:47 am

Definitely 3.
Smoke doesn't reflect light like it happens in the other variations imo.

Photocopier · **Reply #116 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:15:26 am

3, I think the paler ones just look unrealistic.

Crow · **Reply #117 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:18:38 am

Out of the four, I'd say three as well. I believe that the highlights on the "earlier" smoke particles are too strong though. All of the four animations have that problem. This makes the smoke particles look a bit like metal balls at one point. Not cool.

Lizzrd · **Reply #118 on:** December 29, 2009, 11:41:52 am

make the smke on 3 more brown.

CaKsTeR · **Reply #119 on:** December 29, 2009, 03:13:56 pm

I vote 3, looks the best out of all of them

twodayslate · **Reply #120 on:** December 29, 2009, 04:42:43 pm

I can't decided between two and three

Sherman Gill · **Reply #121 on:** December 29, 2009, 10:24:36 pm

r4c7 · **Reply #122 on:** December 30, 2009, 01:41:50 am

Definitely three.

ndchristie · **Reply #123 on:** December 30, 2009, 01:55:24 am

#3 for sure, but i still think the smoke should be matte

WM · **Reply #124 on:** December 30, 2009, 02:15:22 am

2.5

(I would like to see what something halfway between 2's and 3's smoke dissipation effects would look like)

EDIT: If I had to choose between the two, I would floor my answer down to two.

Howard Day · **Reply #125 on:** December 30, 2009, 05:10:58 am

Wow, thanks for all the feedback, guys! I'm looking at #3 right now, with less lighting on the smoke, with perhaps a bit lighter and more transparent smoke towards the end of the animation.
In the meantime, I've made the death animation for the bumblebot. The idea here is that it's hit in mid-air, and spins into the ground and explodes. It will have a separate smoke and debris trail for added awesome.

I've also re-touched the weapon fire to better match the other effects...it's subtle, but necessary.

And I've finished the next enemy - the RollyPollyBot...I'm not 100% happy with the attack animation - I think it needs some work, but I'd still love any feedback you guys have!

I'll keep the vote on the explosion going for a couple more days - I'm in no rush to make a decision on this, because it's been such a pain so far to get something everyone likes.

Thoughts?

Howard Day · **Reply #126 on:** December 31, 2009, 03:55:02 am

Okay, did some revision on the rollypolly attack...

and some taunt and idle animations...

and everything together:

and I went back to the explosion...

Can't stay away.

Thoughts?

Konrad · **Reply #127 on:** December 31, 2009, 12:10:04 pm

I really like what you're doing here. The last explosion looks best IMO (alternatively #3). Though I guess that seeing them on a background would make deciding easier.
The "rollypolly" looks good, but I think the idle pose is a little strange. I think it'd look better if it lay flat on the ground and would lift it's head as taunt pose. But that's just my opinion.
Great work so far

.

CrazyMLC · **Reply #128 on:** December 31, 2009, 05:09:30 pm

For some reason the little appendage on the rollypolly really looks like a penis.
Creeping me out, dawg.

Anyhow, remember the animation I posted? When the smoke was dissipating it was swirling around. Explosions do that too.

Zweckform · **Reply #129 on:** December 31, 2009, 09:12:00 pm

Hello,

i like Nr. 4 for it keeps the style of the animation. Nr. 3 is nice, too but the smoke at the end does not fit 100% imho. Anyway nice work so far.

Dusty · **Reply #130 on:** January 02, 2010, 05:01:00 am

Quote from: CrazyMLC on December 31, 2009, 05:09:30 pm

For some reason the little appendage on the rollypolly really looks like a penis.
Creeping me out, dawg.

Really? First thing I thought of was a bee stinger, given the robot's similarities to a bee.

Lizzrd · **Reply #131 on:** January 02, 2010, 10:52:42 am

He was talking about the lil' rollin' one.

Howard Day · **Reply #132 on:** January 02, 2010, 11:39:18 am

It's supposed to look like a rattler tail - it's even striped to exemplify this.

Konrad · **Reply #133 on:** January 02, 2010, 12:25:23 pm

Quote from: Howard Day on January 02, 2010, 11:39:18 am

It's supposed to look like a rattler tail - it's even striped to exemplify this.

That was directly my thought, so I guess it's at least readable for me

.

Conzeit · **Reply #134 on:** January 03, 2010, 10:46:42 pm

lil' bug is way way too little for any of the details to be readable, this guy should be only general shapes. You're pushing the limits of 3d stuff posing as pixelart too far.

I get a general sense of lack of scale in all of the sprite art, as if you did every element in the same amount of zoom and then resized it to it's corresponding scale. There wasnt a need for alpha in the first explosions because

for example fades out in particles that are around a pixel's size while

fades out in big blotches of unconvicing bubbles, you should break these bubbles into smaller and smaller bubbles until they become around pixel size, that's what I do by hand when I pixel effects fading out.

I have to admit that if you MUST go with alpha explosions, this is a lot better because it actually gathers some depth from the alpha...I think if you're gonna do alpha fadeouts you should skip this brush aproach and render some semistransparent smoke swirls, make them gather as if encircling a sphere, wrap and twist as they fade out...I think you've probably seen what I mean in anime sometime.

I dont really like the wasp's explosion either...I'm not particularly fond of this wind-waker-ish curly explosions that you have now, I think you're fusing the first stages of the explosion all into one and it kinda takes away from the whole thing

skeme_IN5 · **Reply #135 on:** January 06, 2010, 05:17:24 am

i absolutely love all this stuff you are working on! i vote for smoke #3 btw.

Howard Day · **Reply #136 on:** January 08, 2010, 10:04:15 pm

Konrad: Thanks. #3 seems to be the crowd favorite!
Conceit: Wow, lots of critique there! So, As it turns out, I am determined to go the alpha route. I see what you're saying about the size of the particles and I agree - I'd definitely be going that way if I hadn't decided to do alpha. As for the alpha swirls - an excellent idea, and one I shall have to explore. As for the bumblebot blast, yeah, the explosion itself needs some work, I agree. As for the curly explosions, I kinda have to disagree with you - I love 'em and think they make the effect.

Okay, so I've been kinda preoccupied recently, I did get some work done on the main character, with any luck I should have something to show for that this weekend. In the meantime I did a quick run on a Hud element - the health bar. The little box is where your current item goes. The starting dull green bars are how much health you can have, the bright green bars are how much health you have.

Also came up with a name for the project:

And a first walk test for the main character...

It's very, very rough, I know. Still gonna be doing some major tweaking.
Thoughts?

sculptedpixel · **Reply #137 on:** January 11, 2010, 09:19:30 am

full of awesome as usual. I'd love to see details on your workflow from max (ie, what anti-aliasing settings, bg color, alpha matte / processing if any, sprite-software steps, etc.,) to these apng's - extremely impressive. I've been using 3dsmax since, well, since it was 3ds on dos

and this stuff just slays me with awesomesauce. HUZZAH.

On the gorilla: Perhaps more movement in the hips & back - it looks too solid / inflexible.

Stratto · **Reply #138 on:** January 11, 2010, 01:19:35 pm

Wow, I never expected the main character to be a mecha-Gorilla.
Would you mind explaining the title and the character?
So far, it's coming out excellent. Keep up the good work.

Jad · **Reply #139 on:** January 11, 2010, 01:37:13 pm

Main character irks me, design-wise. Not because I don't like my occasional mecha gorilla (I love the shit out of it) but because it looks so slow ): and the original video that you posted for inspiration was so full of speed and rooftop runnings I thought that'd be part of the inspiration for this project.

I really think you should add some agility to his general design. What comes to mind is an ape's focus on agile arms and how they serve as limbs made for movement as much as for environment interaction. An agile ape with much focus on arms. Well I dunno, that's just what my brain told me to tell you, if you don't feel my words, please do go ahead with your original vision and impress me, I'm sure you will <3

rikfuzz · **Reply #140 on:** January 11, 2010, 01:49:58 pm

I was personally really hoping for something more organic as the player sprite. Looks like it's going the opposite direction - to something even more boxy and mechanical than the enemies.

linx · **Reply #141 on:** January 11, 2010, 07:40:38 pm

Yes im deeply dissapointed with the main character. I was hoping he would look something like how he looked in the video :\

NaCl · **Reply #142 on:** January 11, 2010, 08:05:20 pm

Yeah, I have to agree that the main character is totally lame. This is personal opinion of course, but with how awesome everything is so far, having a friggin gorilla as the main character just doesn't do it justice. To me, it looks like there is this theme of conflicting technology and nature, or at least some awkward comprise between the two. There is this mechanical and sterile environment, with trees trying to fit themselves into that. I mean I guess it could be cool, but personally I think a bumbling buffoon gorilla is not right. Of course DK country had a gorilla, but I don't think anyone played that game for it's aesthetics, just the gameplay.

Love the color scheme on him though! That blue will look awesome in the orange environment.

Konrad · **Reply #143 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:02:48 am

Heh. I never expected a gorilla as main character

. Definately interesting. But I'm sorry to say that I'm not really fond of it. But I guess that depends on how you put him in the setting. So a bit more explanation would be nice.

Pros:
-looks cool
-more "realistic" possibilities to interact with environment (don't you hate it when HUMAN characters can jump around like tarzan in games

?)
-remember TOKI ? Cool game, although you're playing an ape

. It's something different

Cons:
-what's his weapons ? just fists ? Would be boring imo. And weapons attached to the "shell" wouldn't look good, I think.
-although I see enough possibilities to interact with environment, I see less or even NO possibilities for weapons, powerups, vehicles. At least none which I like. I guess spitting bullets like in TOKI has gotten out of style

.

BTW: Is it just me, or is he not completely facing right in this render ?

The character has to have a much more dynamic movement. Right now he looks like he's just "lingering around" (do you say so in english ?). It's not looking bad or unrealistic, but boring for the game. The movement of the main character affects the feeling for the game speed. A main character moving like this slows the whole game down.

Tried to find a video of a running gorilla on YouTube, but couldn't find a good video. Need some sleep now

. Perhaps someone else can help you out there ?!

Tuna Unleashed · **Reply #144 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:57:57 am

honestly i love the idea of a gorilla for the main character, but im also not huge on the mecha thing. i could see maybe a single mecha arm or something but the full robogorilla makes him seem no different from anything else. im also not big on the colour scheme

9_6 · **Reply #145 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:28:53 pm

How on earth are people supposed to dodge anything with such a ginormous main character?
Unless you just go all like "HULK SMASH PUNY BUGS GRRR" on them with their shots not really hurting you at all which would be awesome.

PypeBros · **Reply #146 on:** January 12, 2010, 12:45:03 pm

Quote from: 9_6 on January 12, 2010, 12:28:53 pm

How on earth are people supposed to dodge anything with such a ginormous main character?
Unless you just go all like "HULK SMASH PUNY BUGS GRRR" on them with their shots not really hurting you at all which would be awesome.

That was more or less the idea of Psygnosys' walker shoot-m-up, where you had a sort of "heat gauge" affected both by hits taken and shooting rate, iirc. And it was said to be quite an exciting game to play.

Conzeit · **Reply #147 on:** January 12, 2010, 08:08:34 pm

Quote from: Howard Day on January 08, 2010, 10:04:15 pm

And a first walk test for the main character...

Talk about a departure from the original video! I wasnt expecting a parkour kid anymore but jeez! not only is it a big robot gorilla, he's stiff as hell! do you really mean to make him such a slow walker? I guess his torso is stiff because it's a preliminary walk, but with that speed I can only imagine that working if it becomes more of a beatemup instead o a platformer.

Also, in sidescrollers we kind of have a standard of the characters facing the audience in 3/4 , 1/2 or full profile at most regardless of wether they're facing right or left, are you purposedly going against that by showing us the hero's back most of the time?

sculptedpixel · **Reply #148 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:20:09 pm

WOW! All this hate for the great ape!

Size, animation, orientation - these are all very preliminary things and can be easily tweaked. ROBOKONG as a player-character - I think it's pretty unique and could be fun to be this giant robo ape terrorizing a town full of smallish sprites (who have no hope of stopping, nay even slowing, giant robot simian terror!).

I don't mind the concept, I'm sure it'll turn out fantastic as everything else here as you polish it up.

linx · **Reply #149 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:32:29 pm

The reason im so dissapointed in the Ape is all this time he was making the monsters i was imagining playing as the character form the original video, not a giant gorilla

Howard Day · **Reply #150 on:** January 12, 2010, 09:38:04 pm

Wow. Lots of dislike in here.

So, to explain the thinking behind some of these ideas...
Yes, the walk is slow right now - it was mostly a test to make sure the rig worked. The final animation is meant to be much quicker, more acrobatic, and smoother. I've since improved the rig to include bending the torso, neck, shoulders, and made the feet smaller, so I can do more with the motion of the legs. There's also a major element missing right now - the gun. As originally intended, this guy would have a shoulder-mount weapon (that upgrades as the game progresses) that independently tracks enemies. Something along the lines of this:

And yes, the Karmans from AT 43 have been among my main inspirations for this guy - them and Cygor. I'm still very much in progress of working on this character.
The scaling of this guy is also off - the camera was improperly set up - It's about 25% closer than it should be. The "facing away from the camera" issue is another thing entirely. I was trying to be utterly consistent in the camera angles used by these sprites - which lead to the camera being slightly behind the character. If I'm honest, I sort of like this - seems a neat diversion from the standard sidescroller formula where the main character is the main focus of the scene. This way you're more focused on what's going on *in* the scene, than what your character's doing. *However*, I have tried the camera facing the other way, and it doesn't look nearly as jarring as I might have thought. I'll do a post with both options whenever I get the animation and character to a good point.

As for the name of the game, here's the basic story:
Your character is an uplifted, human-level intelligence scout gorilla (who's been genetically altered to have several other animals survival traits, sense of smell, hearing, balance, reflexes, that sort of thing think 50% Cougar). You're returning to your home planet for debriefing. While in orbit, you signal your controllers of your arrival. As soon as your signal is sent, your ship is targeted, fired upon, and shot down. You wake up next to your wrecked scoutcraft somewhere outside the city. Your goal is to find out what happened to your controllers, and why all the dwellings and city outskirts seem to be deserted.
Thus the name - Absent Eden. There are no people here, just psychotic utility and police bots. All of them intent on eliminating you.
Not the most original, but hey.

One final note: After reading some of the criticisms posted in response to the gorilla, I considered replacing the gorillacat with a more conventional character - even an anime-style guy pulled almost directly from the video I posted as inspiration. I ran this idea past my friends here at work, guys and gals who's opinion I trust enormously, and I was threatened with physical violence if I replaced the monkey. So for now, the monkey stays. I shall try and make it more interesting, however.

Give me a few days to work out the animation. It's not my strong suit (I've never really animated characters before) and I'm still learning.

Conzeit · **Reply #151 on:** January 12, 2010, 11:15:20 pm

hahahaha, monkey's good. The walk just seemed unworkably slow :p then I looked at that "walker" game and realized it would be ok if it worked more like a shooter game...which from that picture it looks like it might be what you do.

Maybe I should wait to get the frontal look of the lil fella, but I feel like you should try more options with the design before settling on this. I like the gun monkey pic you posted, and the other gorillas of the AT-43 and they fit with what you got with the bad guys, but the gorilla seems like he isnt up to the quality of either your previous stuff OR the AT-43 series....it's your hero after all, you should think about it a bit more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZItE4FQU784&feature=related

Real gorillas are fun too, maybe you should watch them a little so you make your own caricature of them and your own armor configuration

I'm liking the look of the spiderbot more than the Gorilla the way it is right now. I feel like the model itself isnt too attractive looking, the shapes are sort of clunky instead of emphasizing the basic forms that compose him (as opposed to the wasp or the spiderbot) so the blue/white lines lose their purpose too since they stop drawing your eyes around the basic shaps and instead just sort of add directionless detail. Also, the thing that differentiates him the most from the enemies (other than color) is his biologic parts, and they're looking pretty drab and boring right now...think of all this and try diferent designs before settling on this one!

IDK how you might want to do the gun...but I think it'd be fun if it was something gorilla-ish, like maybe he doesnt fire it by pulling a trigger but by smashing it on the floor, or smashing it against his head or something lol....maybe it could be stick shaped or ball shaped...it'd be fun to have something like that so maybe with diferent items he smashes it in different ways and different attack patterns come out :p

EDIT:

Quote from: Howard Day on January 12, 2010, 09:38:04 pm

Give me a few days to work out the animation. It's not my strong suit (I've never really animated characters before) and I'm still learning.

wow, really? you mean spiderbot and such were your first tries? that makes it all even more mindblowing!! I'll readjust my crits accordingly when you post the blu ape then =D

linx · **Reply #152 on:** January 13, 2010, 02:53:56 am

--Starts plotting on how to kill the co-workers--
Gorilla just seems too big for this. I expected this to be fast pace

Konrad · **Reply #153 on:** January 13, 2010, 07:35:41 am

Quote from: Conceit on January 12, 2010, 11:15:20 pm

..., but the gorilla seems like he isnt up to the quality of either your previous stuff OR the AT-43 series....it's your hero after all, you should think about it a bit more!

I'll second that. The AT-43-gorilla you posted looks much morge organic and as if he's wearing an armor/shell.
Your gorilla looks really flat, and more like a robot. I'd prefer the organic look.

I think it'd be cool if the armor/mechanical parts would resemble powerups. So in the beginning the gorilla would look more or less like a normal gorilla, after collecting powerups the bodyparts get covered with mechanical parts (i.e. high-jump-upgrade > mechanical legs).

CrazyMLC · **Reply #154 on:** January 13, 2010, 08:04:57 am

Well, the gorrila idea doesn't make too much sense to me, but I like the theme of mammals vs bugs.

Howard Day · **Reply #155 on:** January 13, 2010, 09:39:26 am

Conceit: Okay, I definitely agree with you on the quality thing, and I hope I've at least touched on that in the latest set. And yes, these are indeed the first character models I've ever made in their entirety. I've made a couple of torso only models before, but not done a whole lot of animation. It's all a learning experience.
linx: Hey, now. I guarantee that they're tougher than you are. Anyone who can make it through crunch time on 3 sequential Tomb Raider games are not to be F**ked with.
Okay, latest animation set, both from the front and the back. I've removed the armor on the nearest arm, added the back mount for the gun, added the cat ears, and a host of other changes.
Moving a lot quicker and smoother now, too. Re-scalled, as well, though I'm noticing that the back view one is...slightly larger than it should be. Damn these touchy cameras.

As always, thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

Konrad · **Reply #156 on:** January 13, 2010, 12:19:38 pm

- Why those ears ?!
- I rather liked the darker fur. Something in between ?
- I think the legs should extern further.
- Can you give the legs more volume ? Rounded, not flat ?

Larwick · **Reply #157 on:** January 13, 2010, 01:23:50 pm

Hey Howard, i was really happy when i found out your protagonist was a robo gorilla! With big, clunky sound effects this could be really effective. I think i had the same physical issues with one of my characters once, in that they were very big and clunky - but i think you may have solved it with the massive gun

The pink ears don't really sit right with me either, it just seems odd and hard to understand - i don't think that if i saw this without any clues i would be able to guess they were cat ears. It almost looks like a big cartoon wound.

Would the shoulders look better with some kind of highlight patch on the top? The upper arms look a bit monotonous at the moment with the hair texture imo. I keep thinking maybe i prefer the dark hair but i'm still unsure.

I've been lurking on this thread since the start, your work is really great, i appreciate you sharing it with us.

Howard Day · **Reply #158 on:** January 13, 2010, 11:46:20 pm

Slight update. Dunno if I've made it worse. Something on the rear legs is looking worse. Got rid of the ears.

CaKsTeR · **Reply #159 on:** January 13, 2010, 11:57:49 pm

His hind legs are hesitating before they actually make contact with the ground. That's probably a major contribution to what's making this run odd.

alspal · **Reply #160 on:** January 14, 2010, 12:57:27 am

Really like the main character choice!
Maybe there could be more movement in the waist area? Although his armour seems to restrict that. I'm not really sure how goriallas move but it seemed a bit stiff.
It almost seems like he has 2 different types of fur on his arms (the lower and upper areas), the fur also seems like it's made of crystals

big brother · **Reply #161 on:** January 14, 2010, 04:49:48 am

There should be more vertical movement I think. The head and torso almost seem stiffly held in place. In a kind of bounding gallop, I would imagine that the head would move in a nice arc over the frames. Also, it'd be nice to see his facial features more exaggerated, enhancing the simian quality for this scale. Your world seems kind of cartoony, and the furry detail doesn't really jive.

Tuna Unleashed · **Reply #162 on:** January 14, 2010, 05:16:00 am

the back legs are really floaty. i like the character design way better now, but i agree darker fur would help. nice progress

Howard Day · **Reply #163 on:** January 14, 2010, 07:02:58 am

Konrad: It's a GorillaCat! ...I don't know why those ears. I thought they might look good. I was obviously wrong. I like the robo legs, they're gonna make more sense when you see the gun.

You're right on the leg extents.
Larwick: Glad you like it! The ears were obviously a bad choice. As for the upper arm, I think what's jarring about that area is the extreme range of motion of the biological arm right next to the almost non-moving torso armor. I stuck in a sort of shoulder pad to help dampen that movement.
Jad: Thanks for the support! I think I'm well on my way to proving that the idea is solid.

CaKsTeR: That should be fixed in the latest.
aspal: Glad you like! I'm definitely still tweaking the overall movement. And good call on the specular on the fur - it was too much. Removed.
big brother: Done - added in there. I'll hit the facial features when I do the close up talking portrait. Sometime in he future.

Tuna Unleashed: Fixed and fixed.
So a while back someone asked about the Max settings and workflow that I'm using. It's pretty simple - I'm rendering the images at twice the final resolution with Blackman AA. I then shrink the images in post using nearest neighbor sampling - that's the only way I've found to get these nice, crisp edges. The lighting is one directional area light, and max's advanced lighting radiosity.
Here's a preview of the next image set - quickly done with none of the cool stuff turned on.

That's your first look at a player gun. It's one of the high-level ones, if not the highest-level one.

Thoughts?

I'm rendering the final quality frames now. I'll post 'em up when they're done.

CrazyMLC · **Reply #164 on:** January 14, 2010, 07:21:51 am

The legs and event he torso needs some work imo, and the palms should be pointing inwards a bit more.
the stride seems a bit off, heres a reference video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHi3xYS3cOs

I like the legs but they seem very plain and archaic when looking at the beautiful, flowing armor and electronics of the spider and company. Gorillas are a lot like humans, and the belly should stick out a bit more than it is now... unless this is a super weightlifter gorilla!

The gun looks big and cool, but also very bulky and heavy, and it seems to be more on the gorilla's left side, and that would probably make walking, or even standing, very hard.

Stab · **Reply #165 on:** January 14, 2010, 08:17:04 am

Thoughts!

First off: Fantastic, ridiculous, if I can concoct stuff at this level of quality some day, I'll die happy.

Second: For your Gorilla... if the function defines the form, then what is his body armour/cyborg-ness doing? What is he supposed to be doing?

The rest of your work seems to make sense in this regard. Not much seems incongruous; everything is where it should be, reads easily, and supports a function.

For example, the Deathbot. From a few seconds of looking, my brain picks it up as a tough, frontal-defense robot, built primarily to stand its ground and repel a number of medium-to-small, relatively slow targets. This idea of the robot is gathered from the way it appears to be crafted. It has a single, nonrotational optic up front, mounted low and moderately well defended, as well as two frontward-facing guns, seemingly well-protected legs and an energy core placed behind it all where it's very unlikely to be hit at all. Your design of the character is fantastic, and tells the viewer a lot of things that probably won't even register unless he thinks about it.

In comparison and using the same analysis, I wanna look at your Gorilla. It has a giant friggin' cannon, which is very clear in intent and purpose. It appears to be built to charge headlong into a battle and exploderize everything by virtue of the fact that its gun is so large aiming is just a suggestion, not a necessity. It is incongruous, however with itself and its own percieved function by the way it is crafted. If it IS a beast (Cyborg primate whatever) meant primarily to juggernaut its way in there and leave bits of robot strewn across the earth, then why are its two most important physical forces entirely unarmoured, save for two bracelets that remind me more of restraining devices than anything else? Also, why is there more protection on the rear end, where nothing is likely to even be scratched, let alone permanently damaged?

The character's design isn't telling me what it's meant for. My heart says it's made to rush in there fastlike and crushinate (Also, I feel like I read this somewhere), but the character design isn't supporting that thesis, or offering another suggestion (If the gun had a longer barrel, and the gorilla had freaky optics, I'd think sniper gorilla. If it was clutching a nuclear warhead, I'd think kamikaze gorilla.).

What I'd be playing around with or attempting to do would be to push the idea that this gorilla does not believe that "slow", "backwards" and "stop" are anywhere in the dictionary, and that forward progress despite any obstacle is the only way to go, ever. The character doesn't project any definite idea right now, and I think that's where it suffers most.

Howard Day · **Reply #166 on:** January 14, 2010, 08:41:06 am

Alrighty - the final quality sprite. Not final, just final quality.

CrazyMLC : I'll play around with the arms/hands a bit more. And as much as I like the way the legs are made right now, I'll take another look and see if I can't come up with something better. As for the size and placement of the gun...I'm willing to forgo total realism in this case, in favor of sheer awesome. Remember - that weapon is a late-game deal, most of the game will be played through with weapons far smaller and less cumbersome than that.
Stab: You bring up some excellent points - and if I'm honest, I don't know how to properly address them. The only thing that comes to mind is some way of showing the player that that gun mount was not originally intended to *be* a gun mount. Something along the lines of at the very beginning of the game, right after the scoutship is shot down and you, the player, wake up - having some sort of mangled comm gear that he tears off his shoulder. The player is supposed to be a scout returning from a mission. That's actually key - he's never intended to *be* a frontline weapon, but a passive, furtive observer. Thus, his hindquarters would be armored, for running away, legs altered, enhanced, so he could be faster, yeah? And a neat-o satellite dish with some bad-ass binocular attachment would make a lot of sense. And the shoulder mount could just be a generic mounting point, like an AC socket. This all makes sense to me, sure - but I'm really close to the character and the project. You're right - the key is communicating the knowledge I have to the player.

I'm rendering out another take on this, from the rear view. I'm fairly certain that I'll be using the front view from here on out, but I thought some might like to see.

9_6 · **Reply #167 on:** January 14, 2010, 08:54:24 am

Quote from: Howard Day on January 14, 2010, 08:41:06 am

The player is supposed to be a scout returning from a mission. That's actually key - he's never intended to *be* a frontline weapon, but a passive, furtive observer.

A gorilla bigger than the biggest enemy (so far) is meant to have the role of an passive observer?
That's like taking the hulk and giving him the job of a scout.
Does not compute.

Also if it's meant to be a scout, robotize its frond legs and de-armorize its chest or something to communicate mobility cause right now, that's way too much armor for something that's not meant for battle.
But then again, that's way too clunky and heavy looking for a scout, with or without that gun!
How could you, out of all possible mammals, pick a gorilla as the "passive observer"?
Gorillas are neither stealthy nor (do they look) agile. They're gorillas! They're hell of strong! They're the most hardcore apes in existance!

Tuna Unleashed · **Reply #168 on:** January 14, 2010, 01:26:49 pm

imo you should have the gun mounted on his back. i mean i know its exaggerated but... wow, that might be a bit much. he ought to topple over as long as he's going under mach 10. i do like the gun though

CrazyMLC · **Reply #169 on:** January 14, 2010, 02:13:12 pm

The reasons Stab posted are very, very good, and I think represent why he should find some new armor, but knowing your reasons, Howard, make it make sense.

Still, I think its in conflict with the huge gun... you say that this one will be later in the game, so how about having the armor be upgradable to fit in with it?

One thing is, arms are part of gorillas' stride, so why are they left unenhanced and organic?
They're also needed for movement, so I'd think keeping them intact would be top (or second to top? >_>) priority...
The legs are hard to read, I can't tell if they're in really boxy armor or robotic legs.

The torso armor, apart from the the hip area, looks like a single piece of armor, the chest and spine need a lot of room, and you see how in medieval armor its all segmented to allow motion, I think you should apply this concept, especially for a scout.

The socket would make much more sense in context, I think seeing other gorillas/people attached to the bottoms of planes, etc, ready to be dropped off, or or having is be part of the seat belt for the plane he crashes in, or something like that. If you do something like that you probably wont have to worry about it, but for even a civilian/scout to be using it, when they're not supposed to be constantly using guns, there'd have to be a lot of use, or need, for it

One way you could get away with the armor being like it is is having a personal shield on him.

Or, how about he makes/finds new armor, or cobbles things onto it to make it fancier?
On his ship he crashed in, was there no suit of combat armor?
Does he not come across any deserted police stations with police armor?

Like I said earlier this is evolving into a game i'd love to play, heres hoping it gets made!

I liked seeing the mock-ups with everything on the screen, can we see one with the gorilla, HUD, etc? Pleeeease?

Howard Day · **Reply #170 on:** January 14, 2010, 10:47:59 pm

Alright. Update to the animation.

I'm pretty much gonna leave it there for the time being. I'm gonna go back and try some new things with the legs tonight, and some more background plate stuff to calm me down.

After that I'll try sticking some of this together for another still-image mockup.

Conzeit · **Reply #171 on:** January 14, 2010, 11:33:50 pm

I think that barearmed gorilla is looking very good, I also like the lynx ear, they blend more with the design than those cat ears...the hero is looking pretty good now.

the cat ears and the gun sort of clash though, the gun's paintjob together with the wires on the back and the cat ears make that whole area look a little too crowded. I think the yellow/black wires call too much attention and are thematically less important because they are just MORE of the character's cyborg features, while the Lynx ears are the only hint that the gorilla's genetically modified, therefore far more important. You need to take the focus away from the wires (I'd remove them) and make those ears stand out a little better, they get lost on top of the gun.

Also, I cant see the gorilla's face you need to make it more caricutarized, or give him some cool glasses like those toys you referenced.
This is is an aspect of pixelart that you should keep in mind "design 4 size", you're designing for the final aspect ratio that things will be shown in, so you should put only the details that can be shown in your intented resolution, not less not more.

The animation lokos pretty good, it just lacks analysis of refferences. I really think you're understimating how you can make your own design a lot better if you refference real life and draw your own caricatures, rather than try to do what others have done.
Look at this gorilla walking from the back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8afAqnar3qw&feature=related check this after 2:02

Gorillas dont walk straight, one leg goes in between the arms, the other goes to a side. They are in a spot between pibed and cuadruped that's why their walk is flawed.

their whole walk is them putting their arms forward, pushing down...then swinging their body diagonally to avance. You should incorporate some way for your guy to move his shoulders, there's a LOT of that oll over a gorilla's motions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDxA8-01cp4&feature=related
they throw their arm forwars with a lot of force, and then they tense them to push their torso and legs off the ground..(this is the point where they're highest in their walk and you sorta diluted it) then they swing to a side and fall.

Your walk right now kind of assumes that the tiny legs are powering it as much as the huge arms do, which obviously cant be so it looks floaty and sort of unnatural.

Stratto · **Reply #172 on:** January 15, 2010, 12:48:00 am

I suggest making his back legs a little bit bulkier.
In my opinion, the yellow cables on the back look pretty good and I tink you should keep them, but make the antennas more visible.

Stab · **Reply #173 on:** January 15, 2010, 01:24:35 am

You've sold me on it, Howard. Now that you've explained it (and I'm sure it'd be explained in the game as well), I'm having a much easier time reading a sort of "reluctant hero" in your main character.

Conceit's got good points about the animation, though (Though you misplaced your links, Conceit! It's the 2nd link that has runs after 2:02

). I'm not sure I entirely agree that aiming for a realistic (according to the video Conceit posted) run is a wise design choice, as it looks to me a lot more like two midgets doing the wheelbarrow than a powerful, fast run.

Iunno. I can't make any informed judgements, and I think the catlike run -is- the way to go, but Conceit is very right about it floating.

I'll do some experimenting, you'll hear 'bout it if I get anywhere.

-e- nope, I got nothin'.

Gil · **Reply #174 on:** January 15, 2010, 02:34:44 am

This game would be so cool if you just control the gun and not the running. Gorilla just goes stomping away and you have to clear the path.

Seems pretty easy to program actually, have you thought about actually creating the game or is this purely art side?

Howard Day · **Reply #175 on:** January 15, 2010, 01:51:51 pm

Okay, guys. It's really late here. Ridiculous Animation Update.

And I did a background plate...

And some screenshots of the prototype...

As I said, it's really, really late here - I'll try and post responses to everyone sometime later.
Keep 'em coming, though.

CrazyMLC · **Reply #176 on:** January 15, 2010, 01:59:42 pm

Dgawwwwwww...
Ack!
*cleans drool off of keyboard*

Wow, thats really nice when its all put together, but I find its kinda hard to make out the arms in the prototype screenshots.

Konrad · **Reply #177 on:** January 15, 2010, 04:33:06 pm

Weeee. I wanna play this on my peecee !
Looking good

.

big brother · **Reply #178 on:** January 15, 2010, 04:41:46 pm

The gorilla run is looking better. His upper body still defies gravity, especially when both his hands come off the ground (his body starts to dip, but then stops itself BEFORE his hands touch the ground again). It might be nice if the gun had a little more weight, like he leans toward the left side during his run. It's hard to believe something that big isn't heavy.

twodayslate · **Reply #179 on:** January 16, 2010, 05:15:33 am

Need testers I hope!

linx · **Reply #180 on:** January 16, 2010, 06:05:07 am

I'm waiting for that gun's fire animation

Howard Day · **Reply #181 on:** January 17, 2010, 01:12:13 am

9_6: Key words: "So Far".

CrazyMLC:I'm actually considering having a "block" type shield. Simple power-recharge mechanic to make it interesting. That's make the bracelets the shield emitters.

Conceit: Thanks. I think I'm gonna stick with the less-realistic animation style I've got going now. Thanks for those walk/run refs, though - those are in fact hugely helpful. as for the guy's face - I need to re-do that anyway. it was based off a rather crappy reference, and I know I can do better.
Stratto: Yeah, I'm still playing with the legs. haven't come up with anything noteworthy yet, though.
Stab: Thanks - glad I was able to convince you. Now to convince everyone else!
Gil: That is...extremely interesting. I hadn't considered that idea, but it's definitely one I'm going to have to. Would be a really neat gameplay mechanic!
CrazyMLC: Yes! I'm working on fixing that - I'm making the arms slightly brighter and more steel-gray. hope to update that shortly.
Konrad : Right now everything I'm making is designed and formatted for the PSP.
big brother: YES! Thank you, thank you, thank you. That is exactly the problem. Hopefully fixed in the next update!
linx: still playing around, but I'll have something to show soon.

Now for something slightly different!
http://www.hedfiles.net/AE/index.html
IT MOVES! Hit "a" to turn the logo on and off.

Thoughts?

Pawige · **Reply #182 on:** January 17, 2010, 03:16:36 am

Bloody lovely!! The gorilla's animation and design looks much better in motion and on the background. One thing I think that might help is slice the farthest background up into a few pieces and scroll them very very slowly. At the moment it still seems a bit flat.

|
\ / Uhhh... What?

Stab · **Reply #183 on:** January 17, 2010, 03:35:43 am

Perhaps not the best place to initiate a discussion (or, more appropriately, "rant"), but it is relevant to what's going on here... an' pixelation is one of the few hidey-holes on the internet where you can pose your thoughts and have reasonable hope for an informed reply!

So, I begin.

How much does it matter?

In this case, the "it" is the feeling of weight of the gorilla. In the context of the game, how much does it matter? The animation, as is, looks... well, like a gorilla running. it doesn't necessarily look like a slaughterous, 900 pound cyborg primate feline, it doesn't necessarily project each of our specific images for what it -should- look like*... but at the end of the day, in the context of the game, it -is- emitting a mood and seems to be performing the actions it is supposed to be performing.

It is/was also being judged primarily (by myself, at least) as a stand-alone animation, without regard for the context it was in. If/when it is seen in its home context, I have a hard time believing the already small errors of weight in animation will be all that easy to pick out, or noticeable... especially considering the player will likely have more important things to worry about, such as robots shooting LASERS at his FACE.

This is my opinion, though. I was raised and have always taught myself in a more or less absolute, black-OR-white yes OR no sort of way. The reason I'm raising my voice here is because there's quite a few minds (helm-who-must-not-be-named (

), NDChristie and/or Adarias (I still fight with your name change!) would be the two most vocal) who comment upon and point out the merits of subtlety in game design and art in general. I've never outright disagreed with that notion, but there are times when I struggle to see its strength, and times where I see the pursuit of subtlety be damaging to the process in general.

Off on a bit of a tangent, here, but I'm sure I'll work my way back to... uhh... somewhere.

"It's the little things that count" is a saying that comes to mind. I don't disagree with that saying. It is one that popped up occasionally in my formal education, and every time I heard it I could think of examples where it rings true. Take the entire "knytt" series as a shining example. There's a ton of subtle environmental interaction and sound effects and... things that all wonderfully support the main theme of the game. Most of 'em you don't even consciously register until you realise that it's the subtle things that are sucking you in, and start looking for 'em. It works brilliantly, and why it works brilliantly, I think, is directly connected to a saying that was welded to my chest by my formal education.

"YOU'RE POLISHING THE TURD". The reason "knytt" works so well is because its core is solid. The concepts, gameplay, and progression all work, and all the little subtle things compliment the fact that the core is solid, and make the whole game enjoyable (for some). To get away from the game theme, and back to why/how I find focus on subtlties to be detrimental to the whole process is this: Often, I find myself (and other artists) focussing on something that essentially amounts to "polishing the turd" (NOT YOU, HOWARD DAY! I'm off on a tangent, just needed to clarify that this does not pertain to your work!). For 'zample, how often have we seen (and done!) someone working really hard on a human face, trying to convey this precise emotion, drawing and redrawing and redrawing the smile and CURSING THE SKIES BECAUSE THIS FRIGGIN PORTRAIT ASDFFFFFFFF... only to have someone walk in and mention "Hey, your perspective / proportions are off!"

Same thing goes for people attempting to draw drapery over volumes they don't understand. Adding the interaction of subtlety over a core that is broken is only going to result in it being shiny poo.

I think I did that thing where i answered my own quesiton. Lemme check. Yep!

Subtlety matters, but the biggest thing to remember is that subtlety adds, not masks.

HOW this relates back to the topic and subject and whatnot (Kay, Howard. This is you again!) is that either our, the critic's view of the core is bustigated, meaning we don't know something he does that makes it work... OR the core of the beast is bustigated, meaning it is not designed or constructed in a manner that makes sense or reads correctly to the viewer.

Personally, after a bit of observation, I'm opting for the latter. Unless the character is redesigned in a way that supports more believable subtle motion (Primarily, I think, the allowance of shoulder motion would do wonders. I'm not too sold on the rotating disc shoulder joint, as it doesn't allow for much chest rise/fall on impact, and I feel that a lot of the weight in four-legged creatures of this nature is shown by the shoulderblade breaking the contour of the back/neck.)

OF COURSE, that is just criticism in the context of Howard Day's pursuit of believable animation as an artist. I don't have any criticism for the animation in the context of the game, as I think it works well now, and adding anything further to it will excessively complicate matters without reaaaaaaaaally adding that much.

This post was something of an experiment. Thanks for allowing me to let my train of thought do a couple laps around the mountain!

CrazyMLC · **Reply #184 on:** January 17, 2010, 11:52:39 am

Its all moving a bit fast, if the spider bot was walking at it's speed and the gorilla at its, they would just smack into eachother.

The background is really nice but maybe you should make it a tad larger, so it can also scroll slightly.

A nice effect you could add is a slightly jerky motion with the camera, like every time the gorilla takes a leap forward the camera jumps forward, you know? Just a little subtle effect like that would help a lot.

Howard Day · **Reply #185 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:37:58 pm

Pawige: Good call! I broke up the background and added a bit of atmospheric haze while I was at it.
Stab: Sweet god man.

Thanks for the...support? I do greatly appreciate all the feedback I've been getting. I think it's made te whole thing WAY better, so keep it coming!
CrazyMLC: Well, I am gonna give this guy a normal walk animation, this is more of a sprint. I already split up the background - the link should be updated.

http://www.hedfiles.net/AE/index.html
Updates: The monkeys got new fur, new animation, and the background is now far more dynamic.
Here's the new ape anim:

And the first run on the gun animation - both walking loop, and firing animation.

Thoughts?

Stab · **Reply #186 on:** January 18, 2010, 12:50:51 am

I don't think the off-timed double barrel recoil is helping you much, if any.

Also, I think it'd probably be wise to stick some sort of recoil absorption method on the pivot, so the character doesn't rip his own shoulder off every time he fires. Exaggerated and too powerful, but an edit:

http://megaswf.com/view/9ca90f9d0cd1dbd1540cea733cbfdd8d.html

Ehh, or maybe the double barrel recoil is cool. Iunno.

http://megaswf.com/view/59222dc505cd9e974b2d0de77581be2d.html

sculptedpixel · **Reply #187 on:** January 18, 2010, 02:06:17 am

Nice Howard, really nice. I like the recoil-effect on the weapon; the orange thing below screams laser-targeting system to me

Perhaps if you offset the barrel's recoil more - so it was bang / BANG - a few more frames between the two barrels firing / recoiling...

The fur is nice - I think that will stand out a lot better against your BG elements. I think there should be some more hip rotation resulting in some up/down motion on the hips as he plants and pushes off w/ his feet - something to consider. Perhaps some more specular highlighting - it's a tad dark in your processing build linked above; hair at this scale is hard to duplicate though - and should be anistropic if shiny..... hrm.

What AA & rendering engine are you using for these? Scanline? I gotta say, the antennae thingies aren't my cup of tea, but they help convey the motion - I'm curious to see if they'll get lost with the cannon up on his shoulder or what.

KEEP IT COMING

Howard Day · **Reply #188 on:** January 18, 2010, 03:05:59 am

Update - made the muzzle flash more ferocious, and added some recoil.

Howard Day · **Reply #189 on:** January 21, 2010, 10:16:47 am

So, yes - still working on this, after being delayed intermittently by apartment floods, buying a new house (TIMING!) and virus infected jumpdrives and work computers. Joy. Anyhow, I started working on the intro sequence - not a whole lot of gameplay here, but lots of pretty. Here are two shots from the intro.

That's the scoutship approaching Eden - just before it's shot down. And yes...those *are* a pair of DualShokCannons strapped to the nose of that thing! Now we know where that big-ass gun comes from!

Konrad · **Reply #190 on:** January 21, 2010, 04:15:00 pm

Love the ship design ! Is there space for a landing gear between those dual cannons ? Not that it's required anyway

.

bengo · **Reply #191 on:** January 21, 2010, 11:07:46 pm

God this looks awesome, this is gonna be a game right? I wanna play the shit out of it!

Howard Day · **Reply #192 on:** January 22, 2010, 06:59:20 am

Thanks, guys. Here's the first run on the first scene of the intro. http://www.hedfiles.net/intro01.mov - 21MB H.264
sculptedpixel : I am indeed using scanline in MAX 2009. For AA settings, I render at 2x the needed resolution with Blackman type antialiasing, then reduce post-render to 1/2 the resolution using nearest neighbor smoothing. This is the only way I've found to get really nice crisp lines.

Thoughts?

CrazyMLC · **Reply #193 on:** January 22, 2010, 08:06:04 am

I really like the movie, though there is a problem, the panning and movement of the camera is really choppy.

If you look at it, the beginning is, 'Alright, move down. Wait. Move left. Wait.'
What I'm trying to say is that the camera's movement needs to be fluid.

Other than that I think it looks wonderful, especially the ship and the planet.

JonathanOfDrain · **Reply #194 on:** January 22, 2010, 09:16:58 pm

Quote from: CrazyMLC on January 22, 2010, 08:06:04 am

I really like the movie, though there is a problem, the panning and movement of the camera is really choppy.

If you look at it, the beginning is, 'Alright, move down. Wait. Move left. Wait.'
What I'm trying to say is that the camera's movement needs to be fluid.

Other than that I think it looks wonderful, especially the ship and the planet.

I felt like that was intentional, though we can ask Howard about that. I thought it had a robot feel too it like footage from a surveillance space camera. Though if it wasn't from that POV it was indeed choppy and needs to be retouched.

Howard Day · **Reply #195 on:** January 23, 2010, 09:15:25 am

Eeee. Yeah, that was a mistake. The original camera movement came from me trying to make an orthographic camera work, and didn't clean it up after I did manage it.
http://www.hedfiles.net/intro02.mov -21MB
Updated version, new camera movement, touched up effects and planet.

Conzeit · **Reply #196 on:** January 24, 2010, 03:51:18 am

Welll howard, I've got to say I really really admire how headstrong you've been about this whole thing
we all oughta be doing our own projects like this instead of fartin around :p

Dude, I think by now you owe it to yourself to make a thread at TIGSOURCE or the game developers refuge or SOMEWHERE and get yourself a programmer. I think they would start commenting on it too and you'd feed even MORE from that and round out the game as a whole....I'd love to see this stuff playable someday!

Gil · **Reply #197 on:** January 24, 2010, 06:58:42 pm

I'm a programmer at Game Developer's Refuge and I'd love to give this game a crack, but let's not push Howard until he's ready to think further than the creative process.

Howard Day · **Reply #198 on:** January 26, 2010, 08:02:46 am

Conceit: Thanks, man. For te record, I've always intended to program this sucker myself. I'm gonna use MMF2 since I'm a klick'nplay user from waay back when, and that cause/effect mentality is one I understand well. In other news, I'm still working on the intro, on and off, but I'm also finding inspiration in the oddest of places...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/darkkazmo/4302802555/

alspal · **Reply #199 on:** January 26, 2010, 09:02:57 am

Quote from: Howard Day on January 26, 2010, 08:02:46 am

I'm gonna use MMF2 since I'm a klick'nplay user from waay back when

ahh, good choice.

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