AuthorTopic: [WIP] Egyptian woman  (Read 15109 times)

Offline Perihelion

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[WIP] Egyptian woman

on: July 15, 2009, 07:45:36 am
Most recent version:



Original version, although it's somewhat embarrassing now:



Clearly this is unfinished, but as line art is typically one of my weaknesses, I figured I should stop and get some input before proceeding. I know her head is big, and the bird (an Egyptian vulture, btw) is smaller than it should be, but oh well. Feedback so far? Palette (I cannot make hair black to save my life)? Dithering (excessive)?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 08:09:43 pm by Perihelion »

Offline PypeBros

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 08:22:20 am
the head so far is impressive, and her lips are the only thing i would change. She doesn't look much egyptian (by my standards, e.g. cleopatra) except for the jewels and rather reminds me of a Julia Roberts / Jennifer Lopez mix.

I'd suggest you rethink the silouhetto around that head, maybe increase the neck's height a little to make her more mysterious, stretch shoulders accordingly to have a proper scale. That shouldn't cost you too much at this stage.
Her pose is a bit odd, though, uncomfortable both for the lady and the vulture. Why would one extends her arm that way to let a bird rest on it. Usually, either you keep the bird on your shoulder easily (think of Captain Whatever's parrot) or you give him your (protected) fist so that you can give him a boost taking off (think of a hunting falcon).

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 08:41:06 am
The pose was because I made her shoulders too small for the bird to rest there and didn't change it for some reason. I think I might go back and redraw the shoulders in the proper proportions so the bird can rest on it properly.

Before I shaded it, the head actually really looked like Halle Berry for some reason. Gah. I spent a while looking for pictures of Egyptians trying to get the features right, but yeah, it didn't really pan out. :\ I might give it another shot later. I'm making the hair darker, which helps, but it's still sorta weird.

Thanks for the input!

EDIT: How exactly would you change the lips? I found a few facial reconstructions of ancient Egyptians online, and they all had very full lips.

Also, I screwed around with the palette a little. Still not happy with it, but thoughts? The highlights on her hair will hopefully be a little less brown once I get more colors, but we'll see how it goes. Anyway, it's 5am, so I'll mess with it tomorrow.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:01:40 am by Perihelion »

Offline JJ Naas

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 10:38:22 am
Her haircut seems very modern, with the parting and exposed forehead. Good references are a bit hard to come by, because only statues are visible from the front and even Nefertiti's head is covered with a crown, but I guess this kind of a bob haircut is pretty much what their hair was like.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:41:40 am by JJ Naas »

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 11:31:09 am
Well, the character isn't an authentic ancient Egyptian. Pseudo-Egyptian character from something, and she has reasons for wearing her hair short. Thanks, though! It is pretty modern, which might not suit my purposes. I tried a bunch of other hairstyles and didn't like them, but maybe I'll revisit it again.

Oh yeah, that sleep thing I was going to do...

Offline ndchristie

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 02:17:27 pm
Cleopatra was a Macedonian woman, not an Egyptian.  nobility typically wore short haircuts to allow for the extravagant horsehair and wicker wigs that we think of as Egyptian 'hair styles.'  The same actually was true of roman aristocrats, who like their Egyptian counterparts would have worn what we'd today call a pixie cut under a wig.  Real hair was not only difficult to maintain without modern products, it was also a great way to get lice and, for the aristocracy, did not offer the the same flexibility of wigs (which could be chosen or changed for occasions with minimal effort).  Nefertiti herself was likely to be bald, as was the custom of rulers and again allowed for the wearing of wigs and crowns (she even, it is suggested, wore a false beard on some occasions, like Hatshepsut).  Cleopatra may have worn her hair in the classical Greek styles, like the other successor-states, but this would have been unbecoming of a roman woman and her western ambitions would likely have shaped her attire.

Ancient Egyptian faces we generally know through sculpture rather than written description, and the blood lines had changed considerably even by the classical age some 800 years after the height of the egyptian empire.  because such works are generally canonical stylizations and not realistic representations, we can assume that the styles are accurate but that the facial structures should give us no more insight than an ancient greek kouros statue.  In their own art they made quite sure to differentiate themselves from semitic peoples, blacks and anatolians by hair styles, clothing, and beards, but much of the facial structure was kept the same.  We can make some observations though based on archeology, most clearly a prevalence of weak chins, high cheeks, almond eyes, and a smooth brow.  It is not unlikely either that the faces depicted, while unified and stylized, were based on prevalent facial structures and contemporary concepts of beautiful people, more like a fashion plate than a cartoon.

I study the eastern Mediterranean for fun as well as in an academic setting, but most of this information can be found at any library (real or digital) and in a thousand and one places on the internet.  Google is your friend!
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 05:05:20 am
Wow, thanks for the info, ndchristie! Yeah, I looked at some of their art and sculptures too, figuring that they'd probably show a general sort of facial structure that would suit my purposes.

Anyway, I made the shoulders wider, redrew the bird's feet, and changed a few small things about the head. Is my anatomy straight? I'd rather change it now than after I shade it, haha.

Offline Quake

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 12:08:55 pm
Not sure if being historically correct, but I'm 99% sure that vultures, including Egyptian vultures were never tamed by humans.
I really do like the hair though, this piece looks like it's going somewhere good :D

Offline Cure

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #8 on: July 16, 2009, 02:40:02 pm
it's an Egyptian Vulture to fit the theme of the piece
via wiki: [The Egyptian Vulture] was the symbol of perhaps the oldest deity of southern Ancient Egypt, Nekhbet, who was considered the protector of the pharaoh, royalty, and Egypt and always shown with her extended wings. They referred to the bird as the Mother of Mothers, who hath existed from the Beginning and creator of the world. This vulture always was seen on the front of the pharaoh’s crown. 

I don't think this illustration is going in a history book...

I'd reduce the amount of dithering on the face as it gives a rough texture to skin. The bird seems to lean to the left a bit, maybe straighten him up (maybe he needs to be turned more to the side in order to fit on her shoulder?)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 02:43:14 pm by Cure »

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #9 on: July 20, 2009, 02:47:34 am

Fixed the face up some; dithering's much less obnoxious now. Tattoos are coming back once I'm done shading the chest. The bird is gone for now, but I might redraw it if I'm not bored of pixeling by then. If I don't, the arm is probably going away.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #10 on: July 20, 2009, 03:09:52 am
ndchristie: You know too much stuff.

Perihelion. I think this piece is coming along nicely. There is some slight banding under the eyes that you might want to watch out for. compositionally, I like the bird not being there, and I think it would take away from the piece if the arm weren't there.

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #11 on: July 20, 2009, 08:34:29 am

Is the dithering okay? I always put waaaaay too much on, but it blended a lot better that way, and it's not obvious unless you peer closely at it. :\

Ryumaru, I tweaked the eyes a bit, but I don't know if I can get rid of more of the banding. As for the bird, it's relevant as a character point. If I don't put it back, I'll probably put something else there, though. Hmmm. Bird is definitely being redrawn if I keep it, but we'll see how it goes.

Offline gliding

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #12 on: July 20, 2009, 02:16:00 pm
Hey Perihelion,

Here's an edit that I hope addresses issues I am unable to convey in words.
I like the concept so far, I just think you could use less black lines to define shapes i.e on the lips. I redid the nose slightly since I thought you overrendered the last one and I did a small edit on the hairstyle.

Good luck

Offline Mathias

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #13 on: July 20, 2009, 03:34:06 pm
The face is very reminiscent of Penelope Cruz. Be ready for people to think that. And she's not egyptian or macedonian, she's spanish.

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #14 on: July 23, 2009, 02:58:03 am
gliding: Thanks for the edit! I made the shape of the nose less glaring, and I played around with the hair, but I think I like it better as it is now. Tweaked the lips too.

Mathias: Thanks for your input, but I think I've done about all I can as far as fixing the ethnicity. I'm bored of it now!


I sort of hate the necklace, but I'm not sure why. Also, is the shading on the arm okay? I can't decide if I got the shape right or not. And the holyshitdithering continues! Overkill?

And now to figure out what I'm doing with the robe dress thing and redraw the bird and add a backbground... @_@ /me slits wrists
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:03:51 am by Perihelion »

Offline Quake

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #15 on: July 23, 2009, 11:07:31 am
using that as reference.
http://static-p4.fotolia.com/jpg/00/07/16/49/400_F_7164945_3R9OG5swvhHkjHbf1LN6Hn5EheSPBnn4.jpg

Just made the bicep lighter since that'd get some light as with the shoulder like you've done.


Offline politopo

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 11:50:25 am
your piece has gone a long way, and is really improving, but imho, you should try working on a larger canvas, because the body seems to be affected by the border effect, and thus its too small and compressed, compared to the head. But maybe it's just me being affected  ???
 :)

Offline Tobe

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 01:22:03 pm
Not sure if I'm right, but I think there's an anatomy issue.
Here's my quick and dirty edit...


The neck seems a bit too long for me...so I shorten it by 3-4 pixel maybe? Right now, its like... the neck growing on top of that necklace.
Also, I think the shoulder is too far away from the body, it looks like a separated object.

...and I also puff up the hair a little.

Btw, I think the improvement is great. In the first post, I thought she looked kinda spooky. But the latest edit, she actually has some very attractive features : )

Offline Quake

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #18 on: July 23, 2009, 01:35:47 pm
Yeah, i was going to edit my post and say about the shoulder being too far out. Least someone agreed  :hehe:

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #19 on: July 23, 2009, 07:05:08 pm
Quake: Thanks for the input; I'll tweak it! Women tend to show muscle much less than men, though, and I've looked at a few pics.
http://static-p3.fotolia.com/jpg/00/05/26/54/400_F_5265466_Tfe5LR8Aep9wbZGqMNq4QQ9nnr7sxkZH.jpg
http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-16547494.jpg?size=572&uid=%7BA42B3C39-9A4C-4C39-A43F-249AFD75E439%7D

politopo: Thanks! And yeah, you might have a point about the canvas, but I think this is going to drive me insane if I add a ton more work to it.... @_@ The canvas needs to stay the same size 'cause I'm using this pic for something (although that's just an excuse; I could crop it), but I could hypothetically have the woman take up more of the canvas.

Tobe: Pretty sure the shoulder is the right distance out from the body, but it might be too separated underneath or not sloping enough. She's supposed to have her hand on her hip, so it looks kinda weird in isolation. For scale comparison:
http://www.themuslimwoman.org/images/hanan_turk_egyptian_actress.jpg

The diagram Quake linked also has the arm at a similar angle. I sorta wish I'd had it hanging straight down instead, but oh well! I'll play with the outline of the shoulder a bit. Hmm, it might be a little big. Thanks for the lighting edit! Will keep that in mind. And yeah, you're right, the neck is way too long. Haha, looks like I lost track of it with the necklace. I'll shorten it.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 07:11:56 pm by Perihelion »

Offline politopo

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #20 on: July 24, 2009, 08:49:46 am
It won't be "much more work", you just need to do the main sketch on the big canvas and then crop it, you dont need to do all the work... ;)

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #21 on: July 24, 2009, 11:59:18 am
The placement of the shoulder is fine, but id suggest to change the clavicle a bit. The reason the arm looks off is because you're leaving out a muscle in her back.

Offline honored

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #22 on: July 24, 2009, 12:02:55 pm
The placement of the shoulder is fine, but id suggest to change the clavicle a bit. The reason the arm looks off is because you're leaving out a muscle in her back.

Isn't the white doth on her shoulder a bit overdone?

Remember its skin it should not shine that much.(Unless she just came out of a bath.)

- Honored

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #23 on: July 24, 2009, 10:34:22 pm
 Shoulders very often have a round specular on them from the light reflecting off of it- this is even often apparent on pale people( me) and can be much more prominent in other ethnicities who may have more reflective skin. Although it may be a bit misplaced- should be a couple pixels to the right.

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #24 on: July 26, 2009, 01:51:39 am
I got some critique from an artist friend. I pretty much only changed the face in this update; I'll fix the other issues later.

Offline st0ven

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #25 on: July 26, 2009, 08:26:45 am
Hi! i like this piece. watching it evolve was kindof fun.

It looks like its cleaning up nicely, but theres a sense of form thats a bit missing for me, and i think that the saturation of the skin also feels a bit overly so as your values approach the shadier side of the spectrum.

I hope you dont mind the edit



Skin starts off sort of desaturated in its highlighted state and again in its shadowed state (mostly so), but the midtones that blend those values together are usually going to be your more saturated values. So i did a little shifting of the shadow hues to almost an olivish grey just to see how it felt. I like the results even just at a first pass wash.

Next i just took a multiply layer and splashed some paint over the right shoulder area where the head/neck may cast shadow, or where shadow may be cast on the edge of the face on the right, just to hit it with abit more form. i think this may be able to be exaggerated further to really round out the forms underlying topography and itll give it a bit more depth than it currently has.

I cut in that shoulder a bit too as the width was looking kindof too meaty / elongated.

please excuse the hastiness of the edit. id love to get into it but its your work, not my own :)

really nice to look at the detail in the necklace and earrings and the overlaying tattoo/henna design on the skin.

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #26 on: December 13, 2009, 12:05:44 am
I finally got around to working on this damned thing again. I really appreciate everyone's critiques, especially st0ven's wonderful edit--it was incredibly helpful!--and I apologize for not taking them into consideration sooner, but I got really burned out on this after working on it for so long and kept meaning to pick it up again but never did.


Anyone have any further critiques? If not, I think this might be done. Couldn't have done it without all of you, so thanks a bunch!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 12:23:10 am by Perihelion »

Offline WM

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #27 on: December 13, 2009, 01:26:46 am
The edges of those highlights on the fabric across the chest are pretty hard; maybe break up those hard edges with some minimal dithering? Other than that, this piece is great: wonderful choice and application of color!

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #28 on: December 13, 2009, 05:22:05 am
Er, is this any better, or does it need more still?

Offline NaCl

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #29 on: December 13, 2009, 05:46:47 am
I think this piece is excellent, the way you did the hair, skin tones, detail on the jewelry is all awesome.

My critique is the shoulder! It's never looked right from the first. First of all I think it's too skinny. Looks like the skin is directly against the bone where the bicep should be. Then, the connection into the torso doesn't look right. It's too much like a ball at the top of the arm, and it doesn't look like it fits naturally into the socket.

Anyway I wouldn't worry too much about fixing this, it's not a huge deal.

Offline WM

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #30 on: December 13, 2009, 06:36:39 am
I was actually talking about the four largest patches of highlights, two warm and two light, on either side of the chest. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Anyways, I think that what you did work on also helped.

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #31 on: December 13, 2009, 07:06:28 am
NaCl, yeah, I know, that shoulder has been the bane of my existence. I think I might just give up trying to fix it, because I've tried and don't really know what to do to make it look right. :\ Alas, I am better at pixeling than drawing. She is supposed to be really skinny, though.

Oh, yes, WM, I see what you mean now, and I agree!

« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:52:33 am by Perihelion »

Offline NaCl

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #32 on: December 13, 2009, 08:09:28 am
I gave it a quick once over:



I think resting the arm against the body makes it look more natural. I think the main problem of your current is the shadows around the ball at the top of the shoulder. They make it look like it is farther forward then the rest of the torso, but that muscle actually only comes forward slightly from the torso, if not going back (depending on the posture).

Offline WM

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #33 on: December 13, 2009, 07:30:54 pm

...

Oh, yes, WM, I see what you mean now, and I agree!



 :y: perfect!

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #34 on: December 13, 2009, 08:11:09 pm
Yeah, it does look a lot better, WM; thanks for the tip!

NaCl, I was trying to avoid completely redrawing the arm, but I finally caved and did it. Changed the dress a bit too and haven't cleaned it up yet, so don't mind the weird bits. Before I clean the arm up, do the placement and highlights/shadows and whatnot look right? Something still seems off to me, but I don't know if that's because something is wrong or because I'm so used to it the other way.



EDIT: Okay, I did actually clean it up, but I'm still not sure of it. Shoulder highlight is perhaps not round enough. Opinions?



You know, idk, I sort of preferred it how it was before. I might go back to that version even if it's less anatomically correct.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 10:56:36 pm by Perihelion »

Offline NaCl

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #35 on: December 14, 2009, 12:07:16 am
I think it's still too tight, looks like she is raising her shoulder and clenching her arm. Give some slack so it looks like her arm is relaxed, and natural:



I think it's about time for Helm or someone better then me at anatomy + explaining these things to come in here and show you how to fix it. I don't think you should give up and go back to the old way though, because honestly it the arm made an otherwise great piece only good.

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #36 on: December 14, 2009, 12:11:03 am
I could just cut it out of the picture... >_>

But, yeah, thanks for your help. I'll keep poking at it, I guess, but I've been studying photos and not really getting anywhere, so maybe I'll give it a couple days and come back to it with fresh eyes. Haha, I'm a bit tired of it by this point, but it'll be worth it when it's done.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 12:17:18 am by Perihelion »

Offline WM

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #37 on: December 14, 2009, 12:52:03 am
I think that the deltoid just has gone flabby. Gimme a sec and I'll upload what I mean...

EDIT:



There you go. Just a little definition to the delt went a long way, imo.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 12:57:11 am by WM »

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #38 on: December 14, 2009, 08:13:54 pm
Okay, I did this:



I think that looks better, but there's still something off about it, and idk what. My main problem with the piece at this point is that it's boring, but oh well, maybe I'll make something more exciting next time.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 12:29:37 am by Perihelion »

Offline Manupix

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #39 on: December 14, 2009, 11:40:41 pm
Boring??? Well, how about some background now, maybe with that bird in it?
Or some illustration of this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hxS7rJjnpRg7yRU6vHm8b4KZHB8A

This has come some way, congrats!

Offline Perihelion

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Re: [WIP] Egyptian woman

Reply #40 on: December 16, 2009, 05:13:34 am
Thanks for the suggestions, Manupix. I think I've already put enough hours into this, though, and sitting on it is making me antsy. I'm gonna call it done. I may revisit it if anyone can point out the thing that's bugging me, so feel free to continue with crits, but I'm gonna put it on my PJ already.  :blind: