AuthorTopic: The Ongoing War  (Read 13102 times)

Offline Shrike

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The Ongoing War

on: January 26, 2009, 05:18:03 pm
Do you like Graphics Gale or ProMotion better?  Why?  I've always used Graphics Gale, but after watching several of Helm's awesome videos which he did in ProMotion I though ProMotion is more powerful, but I'm finding the interface and shortcuts seriously cumbersome.  Specifically, I'd like to have the right-click be a color dropper, as this was immensely useful in GG, but I can't find the shortcut in the preferences.  Is there an other shortcut for it?

Post here please, keystroke help or which program you prefer.  I'd be willing to pay the money for the ProMotion Full, although, I want to know if it's worth it or not.  Help?

Thanks!
Shrike

Offline ptoing

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 05:26:30 pm
In Promotion you can quick colourpick with ctrl-click. The thing is that the interface of Promotion is based on DeluxePaint. I used that back in the Amiga days, so I got used to PM fast, and I love it.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Gil

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 07:07:02 pm
I don't like ProMotion at all and since I can afford to take a long while to work on my art, I don't need all the complex stuff right now. So I stuck with GG, which I like a lot in terms of workflow.

I do plan on making my own version of a GG lookalike, since I think the updates on GG are a little too slow for my liking. There's a bunch of stuff I need that we aren't going to see quickly in GG. Basically, there's a few annoyances I have while working with GG in terms of working paletted and undo features.

In ProMotion, the absence of right click color pickers and the layout were some things that annoyed me, but the biggest drawback in PM is definately the lack of pixel-snap on the pencil tool. I can't pixel without having pixel-snap on the pencil tool.

Offline dekutree64

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 08:03:20 pm
I've worked with Promotion some, but haven't really gotten to know it well enough to judge it on features. But that fact alone gives Graphics Gale a big boost in my opinion. There was basically no learning process needed, beyond discovering what shift and ctrl do in the palette editor.

The main gripe I have with Gale is the limited number of brush sizes. It would be much better if you could just set the diameter in pixels, ala oekaki. Maybe select shape too, but I rarely if ever find myself wanting to plot giant squares anyway. Also, oekaki-style mask/remask would be nice.

What I love most are the drag-and-drop palette editor (not perfect, but better than anything else I've tried), easy setting of different grid dimensions, easy working with layers and frames.

Gil, what do you mean by pixel snapping? I thought you just meant that when zoomed in, it shows you where the pixel will be drawn if you click. But I just opened PM and it does that too.

Oh, and another thing that would be nice is automatic conversion between frames and sprite strips. Although I suppose special-case tool like that are what lead to a cluttered interface like PM in the first place... Actually it looks like PM does have frames to strip at least. I really should spend more time with it. It probably is the better tool, but GG has an amazing balance of power and simplicity that keeps the battle going.

Offline Panda

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 08:12:45 pm
ProMotion for me.
I've been using it for around 3 years, and I find it awesome.
Easy to use, robust and a rather complete package.
Once you learn the shortcuts you use often, you'll be pixelling fast.

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Offline ptoing

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 08:14:42 pm
PM has both animation to spritesheet as well as the other way round (but that is fiddly). To make the latter easier I will for sure take that to Jan (seeing as I was a beta tester for PM 6), so he will implement it in a future version. This for me is one huge selling point for PM as well, I am in direct contact with the one person developing it and can utter my wishes, many of which have been heard in the current version.

Also, pixel snap, what? You always see exactly what you will be laying down in PM.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Gil

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 08:45:31 pm
Not on my version of ProMotion. Maybe it's an older version, I should try the new one then.

Also, Gale can do the animation to strips too, though it lacks the other way round.

Offline ptoing

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 08:48:52 pm
Can you take a screenshot of what you mean? I do not get it really. In the versions I have used (4.7 up) you always had your cursor and under that you have the current brush, which is whatever you picked up or stuff like singlepixel, 2x2 and such. And that always pixelsnaps in whatever zoom you are.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Shrike

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 11:40:44 pm
Woah, I wasn't expecting so many replies!  I guess it really comes down to what you're most comfortable with, since I'll get the most out of what I can work best in, but I'll give ProMotion a shot, and try working with it some.  I'm just finding it very difficult, but all the greats are using it so I guess I'll work on it more.

Even though I'm pretty much resolved, and I might need more PM guidance, and it seems like this is quite a controversial and popular subject, so let's leave it open.   :)

Toodles!
Shrike

Offline ndchristie

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 12:12:49 am
while i tend out of habit to use an older program called IDraw3 (lots of the palette functions of promotion, plus intuitive selection, snapping, and - get this - right click to colorpick! :P) I find that promotion far exceeds every other program I've tried. in almost every regard.
A mistake is a mistake.
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The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Gil

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #10 on: January 27, 2009, 12:19:46 am
You are right, I checked it, ProMotion does have pixel snap. Paint doesn't seem to have any pixel underneath the cursor and I believe it's photoshop that has both, but lacks the snap.

So, I stand corrected on that part. Basically it's all just preferences anyway, whatever works. I found that working in PM just lessened my workflow a bit.

ProMotion is a lot more powerful and feature rich though. So, if you're looking for that, GG is in no way a substitute.

Photoshop and Paint are behind those two by a lot though. I used to work with an older version of Paint Shop Pro and that one is a bit in the middle. It has some nice features, feels good, but the animation is clunky and it really isn't made for pixel art.

Offline Feron

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #11 on: January 27, 2009, 12:25:18 am
Is promotion available for mac?? (without emulating or installing windows)

I've always wanted to try it, but not at the cost of changing OS.

Currently I'm a photoshop user but I'm getting tired of remembering to turn off AA and all those extra un-pixelart-friendly features. 

Offline Noveroth

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #12 on: January 27, 2009, 06:25:40 pm
I'm a graphics gale person, Right click dropper.

Offline Conzeit

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #13 on: January 27, 2009, 06:46:00 pm
said it before and I'll say it again the constantly playing preview in Ggale is like crack for me  :o

also the fact you can dock and undock the tools however you want...as well as assign any shortcut you want to anything you want

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 07:01:16 pm
Things I like about GraphicsGale:

- Right click color grabber
- Hold right for click insta-select
- Photoshop-style layers
- Onion-skinning!
- Easy palette manipulation
- Euphoria-inducing preview window (as Conceit mentioned)
- Can export animations as a sprite sheet
- Simple and intuitive

I really wish you could select different layers with ctrl+click like in Photoshop and it'd be nice to be able to adjust the brushes manually instead of having to pick from a few presets. But overall I prefer it over any other pixelling software.
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline Emtch

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 10:09:26 pm
I prefer graphics gale, because most of it's free and because I find it faster/easier to use.

Offline ptoing

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #16 on: January 28, 2009, 01:51:55 am
The whole faster/easier thing is totally subjective, mind you. I once tried GG and I did not like the interface for some reason. Also it is a matter of getting used to stuff.
If you watch Helm's mockup video you will see that he is rather fast with PM, tho I would say he is not working anywhere as efficient as he could have, in terms of workflow. And I am sure if he would do the same task now he would probably be faster. All a matter of getting to know a program.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Emtch

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #17 on: January 28, 2009, 04:23:24 pm
The whole faster/easier thing is totally subjective, mind you. I once tried GG and I did not like the interface for some reason. Also it is a matter of getting used to stuff.
If you watch Helm's mockup video you will see that he is rather fast with PM, tho I would say he is not working anywhere as efficient as he could have, in terms of workflow. And I am sure if he would do the same task now he would probably be faster. All a matter of getting to know a program.
I just said I personally find GG easier/faster.
I'm fully convinced ProMotion is a much superior program in most ways. I like the way graphicsgale works because it's similar to other programs I'm used to. But I don't like the interface.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 04:27:03 pm by Emtch »

Offline vierbit

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 07:51:40 pm
Where is the war?

I use Graphic gale for most things. I tried Promotion for while but canīt get really used to it.
PM is nice for a few things and has some relly helpful features.

But I am totally used to pick colors with the right mousebutton, speed up the workflow for me.
Or is there a way to get this in PM, and I am only to dumb to figure it out ???

Offline Helm

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 07:55:59 pm
You start to appreciate Pro Motion when you think 'gosh, I wish there was this sort of specific feature coded in it' and then you realize it is already, and it's useful, and you grow attached to it and then you try GGale and it doesn't have it and you have to do that same thing by hand again. It's like Photoshop in a way (for image editing). If you only use Photoshop for very basic things, the rest is bloat. But if you're interested in doing complex things efficiently and faster, Photoshop has features you'd probably like.

The fallacy is that because pixel art deals with a basic entity that is easy to manipulate in any program (the pixel) then every artist approaches making things with pixels in basic ways. It isn't so. There's dozens of little helpful things in pro motion for any artist that is serious about their work and willing to dig through the documentation to try them out. If you're not adventurous, you don't need it. Stick to GGale.

The danger of course is getting carried away with inexact tools in Pro Motion and arriving at faux Photoshoppery by way of index painting. And then arguing with the lesser informed about how what you did is all 'hand-pixelled'. But that's a moral boundary, not the fault of the program in any way.

Ptoing is right, I am ok-fast, but I could be faster if I sat down with the program more and learned it more. When time allows I will. Pro Motion is near inexhaustible as far as smart little features go and more keeps getting added because Jan listens to artists. GGale is for me, a great option for beginners. MSpaint is just some sort of strange sadistic joke.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 07:58:40 pm by Helm »

Offline Dusty

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #20 on: January 28, 2009, 08:40:50 pm
All this talk about GG convinced me to download it... one gripe: is there a way to change the cursor? I hate the pen cursor and I like the cross-hair-type when I'm using a pen tool.

edit: I like how it starts up instantly, especially compared to Photoshop which takes a minute to load modules and all for me(even though they both have nearly the same capabilities).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 09:05:16 pm by Dusty »

Offline Atnas

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #21 on: January 29, 2009, 03:02:52 pm
You can change all the cursors with reshack.

Offline Scribblette

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #22 on: April 24, 2009, 08:21:22 am
Regarding Graphics Gale, you can create custom pens as detailed in the help file.

Create 32x32 black and white bitmaps with white representing the paint brush, then store them here:

C:\Documents and Settings\ (your user name) \Application Data\Humanbalance\GraphicsGale\pen

Pro Motion boggles me about the same as trying to use that map cad software, Campaign Cartographer. It took me several minutes in PM just to figure out how to PASTE an image in there! It's under 'paste frame' and then it asks me questions about color palette and whatnot - I don't want to revert to 256 colors necessarily, for example - and that threw me off.

It needs a thorough reading before it can be used properly, I guess. I don't know what magic tools in it I need yet over GG, but I'm still a complete nubface. :|
Now reading: Animator's Survival Kit, Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain, Fun With A Pencil. No time to pixel!
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Offline Squiggly_P

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #23 on: April 25, 2009, 04:52:08 pm
I've personally never been satisfied with either of them.  I've not tried the non-free version of GG, so maybe the paid version is far superior, but if I had to choose between the two I'd say GG.  I tend to try out a lot of different pixel apps, tho.  Lately I've been using Alegro Sprite Editor more than anything.  Animation isn't the easiest with it, but the tools are straightforward.

Personally, I think the whole trend of basing every pixel art app on old pixel art apps is kinda dumb.  Lots of music apps have this problem, too.  There are so many free music-making tools, but 90% of them are all based on Fast Tracker or Pro Tracker...  apps that are 15+ years old.  Pixel art apps all seem to be obsessed with Delux Paint and a couple of other old painting apps...  Why not make something new?  I've actually been dicking around with C++ just so I could start working on a pixeling app.  There are some nice things about a lot of pixel apps, but none of them really feel right to me, or they're missing some fundamental function...

I dunno.  For now I'll just keep learning C++.

Offline lollige

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #24 on: April 25, 2009, 07:31:39 pm
Hmm, why didn't I read this before? Anyway, I recently wrote an article on my brand new blog about pixel software. I did not go in detail into Pro Motion, simply because I do not use it very often (I had some trial or so) and therefor can not write as an expert about it.
I however did ad another program noone seems to have mentioned: MTpaint
I really love it. It is extremely simple and easy, in that way that it has hardly any functions, and the palette editor is much more pleasing than the one on graphicsgale! Layer and animation support is however poor.

Read up the article here

Offline Squiggly_P

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #25 on: April 26, 2009, 04:39:36 am
Link was screwed up:
http://lolsoft.com/mrlollige/?p=27

You should try out Allegro Sprite Editor and add it.  It's got layers, animation and it's just simple to use.  The only drawbacks are the way the pallet behaves sometimes (changing the top color will destroy your pallet...  i think it's a 'feature' but it's lame as hell), and the frames and layers are only accessable by tabing to them, but that's just a mild annoyance most of the time.

I've got about a half-dozen others as well that are in various states of useability.  Grafx 2 is another of those apps that is heavilly based on another app's design (is it a port?).  I like MTpaint, but it's got some weird design as well.  The number keys are zoom levels, but 1-4 are 10%-100% and the next level with 5 is 400% and then 6 is 800%...  what happened to 200 and 600...  and why would you want to zoom to 10% or 25% when editing pixelart anyway?  1-4 are pretty much wasted levels, and the others aren't really useful.  100% and 400% are the only really useful zoom levels...  the rest you have to use the menu or manually zoom to it.  It does have some neat effects, and if you want to achieve a pixeled sort of look, but aren't really familiar with pixel art you can make some pretty neat pseudo-pixel-art with it rather quickly.  The vertical pallet is odd as well, and i dunno if it's common or if my computer just sucks, but it's got glitches with some of the tools.

Pro-Motion is weird...  it LOOKS like photoshop or the gimp, but aside from that, it's completely alien in the way it behaves.  Actually, it sorta intimidated me.  You go to make a new image and it pops up this form with tabs and a million settings.  I still don't know if I understand half of it, so I don't know if I'm screwing things up or not.

Anyway, I'm probably taking this way off topic and sounding like a whiny biatch, so I'll shut up.  It might be interesting to explore future GUI / interactivity of pixeling apps, or just apps in general.

Just curious, how many people use a tablet to do their pixeling?  I've tried it a few times, but it just doesn't feel right to me.  And I wonder what it would look like to use vector art to create pixel art...  aliased vector art that could be rotated, scaled, etc...  maybe textured...

Offline Scribblette

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #26 on: April 26, 2009, 07:05:20 am
I'd rather it if Photoshop had those little fixes too, if it was to hold my interest. Namely zoom levels being in 100/200 etc, an option to prevent anti-aliasing only 'outside' an image (not so pixel art, but still handy for small screen games), and I forget what else with my GF blasting away in Fable in the background.

I use a Wacom Intuos 3 wide screen here. I'm not much of an artist to state it has 'improved' my work, but it is quicker than using a mouse and more accurate on hand-free... what's the word... hand... free - oh, free hand, bah - free hand curves. MOST OF ALL, however, is it prevents me from cramping up my hand or wrist. If I feel even the beginnings of a twinge or discomfort, I switch between mouse and tablet. Helps when working without breaks.

I'd think issue with vector art = detail = shrunken detail = messy pixel art. Program can't manage to 'know' what works best as an illusion as human eye can - or some such, maybe.
Now reading: Animator's Survival Kit, Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain, Fun With A Pencil. No time to pixel!
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Offline Ai

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #27 on: April 26, 2009, 08:10:58 am
Just curious, how many people use a tablet to do their pixeling? 
I do, it makes drawing much more natural, same as with CGing.

Quote
And I wonder what it would look like to use vector art to create pixel art...  aliased vector art that could be rotated, scaled, etc...  maybe textured...
It would look like Yoshi's Island bosses, naturally :) or Out of this World. (both of which were a little messy, as scribblette suggests.)
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #28 on: April 27, 2009, 01:51:49 pm
I use a tablet almost universally for pixel art. With a bit of practice it's just as precise as a mouse and it's way better for making organic shapes.
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline Conzeit

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #29 on: May 01, 2009, 07:59:09 am
I use a tablet almost universally for pixel art. With a bit of practice it's just as precise as a mouse and it's way better for making organic shapes.

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEV MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE OUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRR TAAAAAAAAAABLEEEEEEEEEEEEET
 
Ok, to try and make something useful out of this, Madgarden had an idea to make a pixel app that employed vectors in favor of pixels....feel free to harass him into doing it, I will thank you for it and he will tell me to mind my own  vucking busyness :p
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 08:02:57 am by Conceit »

Offline crab2selout.png

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Re: The Ongoing War

Reply #30 on: May 02, 2009, 12:46:37 am
I use a tablet almost universally for pixel art. With a bit of practice it's just as precise as a mouse and it's way better for making organic shapes.

GEEEEEEEEEEEEEV MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE OUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRR TAAAAAAAAAABLEEEEEEEEEEEEET
 
Ok, to try and make something useful out of this, Madgarden had an idea to make a pixel app that employed vectors in favor of pixels....feel free to harass him into doing it, I will thank you for it and he will tell me to mind my own  vucking busyness :p

how would the vectors play into it? Is there a thread somewhere where he explains the idea?