CLOSED

[xhunterko]

More Tweaks
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/new/flippedmain.png
Newish body type
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/new/bodymainchange.png
Logo
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/twincoillogo.png
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/new/styletest.png
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/amainshomiuraandnpc.png
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/mainpossiblefin.png
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/mainafterpost.png

[NaCl]

I still think there is a lot of critique in your old thread you never put to use in the main character sprite. Look at Kclics edit and notice how yours is different. In yours, the legs are perfectly straight, going out at weird angles. Do you see how Kclics guy looks balanced? It is because the legs are at the correct angles, they bend at the knee a little, are the same size, and the torso is balanced over top of the legs. In yours, the torso is far back, there are no knees, and one leg is larger then the other. I would simply erase the legs and try to redraw them in a more natural way. I'm not going to bother with an edit because there were already great ones in the old thread, so just have an honest look at those edits and keep redrawing parts of yours.

As for your computer console, consider putting a little angle on it. Look at the reference and notice that it is tilted down a bit so you can see an edge, that really helps make the object look 3D, instead of flat.

[Dex]

Hey. I've made an edit to your main character sprite. I found it lacking in volume, form, and detail, so I whipped up a quickie to maybe show you what you could do with him!



First, I tried to make things seem more metallic and detailed. I wanted to make volumes and planes stand out.

Second, I changed the hand and the pose a bit. I didn't have time to finish the legs, so I might edit again later if you need me too. 

I also messed with the colors and tried to add better hues to the darker shades while leaving the ones you had alone.

Hope this helps!

[Kazuya Mochu]

oh, after so much effort in editing you still stuck with that same character shape!
oh well i supose its your style.

[xhunterko]

Better?



Or is it still the same "style". 

(I feebley tried to swipe Dex's shoulder pads. And in case you didn't guess, yes, I hate doing hands. Okay, done modifying post now.)

[donom]

Hello. I think you should practice perspective so you can see better what people are/were essentially getting at in their critiques. At least to me that seems to be your main problem at the moment..

[xhunterko]

Tried to use a lighter outline in some places. Used some of Dex's arms. Tried a method I saw on Pixeljoint for legs and torso.

(I seem to have a bad habit of making posts just as more promising threads are being started. I'll have to fix that one of these days.)

[NaCl]

You need to really look at the sprite objectively. It can be hard after you stare at it a while, but really try and see the flaws in anything you make. It is easier when someone points them out, but you are still not looking at the things people have pointed out. For instance, I pointed out that his legs were different widths. You don't really even need an objective eye to see that, you can simply measure them. I also pointed out that he was unbalanced. To solve this you must center his weight over his legs in a believable way.

The edits in your old thread are good, but are pretty much complete redos. You should study them extensivly and see how theirs deviate from yours. I decided to make a small edit, not a complete redo, because I think it could help you see what you need to change, instead of possibly being overwhelmed by a different sprite.

What I did was:
- Move his front leg back 2 pixels. Now his weight is over it, and he is more balanced.
- Thinned out the back leg so it's thickness was consistent with the front one.
- Slightly rotated his torso in the direction of the head and legs.



There is still quite a bit wrong with it. Firstly, all of your colors are 100% saturated. None of them should have 100% saturation, and you should decrease saturation for some of the shadows. Right now, you have a very slight luminance ramp, with the different between some colors just 2-3 difference in luminance. Eliminate colors that are very close, you should only need 3, maybe 4 shades for the blue armor.

One last thing. Kazuya said that perhaps this was just your, "style", but I disagree. I think style is intentional, while the mistakes you are making in the piece are unintentional.

[xhunterko]

I was going to put this up here until I saw your post. I still had GraphicsGale open when I checked this and saw what you had written there.



Since I still wanted to work on it, I decided to try out some of your advice.



What I initially tried to do, was follow Dex's advice on the torso. It's what I was trying to do, but I think he did it simpler. I think that accomplishes the rotating thing you mentioned. The legs were different widths because some games use that to point out the front and back legs. They also give the back leg a darker shade when they do that. That's what I was trying to do but I guess it wasn't working. Your legs however, make a big difference and look more natural.

Hue, saturation, and luminence ramp, all seem to go over my head in a big whoosh. I'm using the 15-bit color palette for this. The reason being is cause it's less colors. And people have said many times that using less colors is a good thing. It's also probably part of my saturation problem. (I'm also trying very hard for this not to look like a megaman x edit.)

About the back arm. I notice in your edit, it makes him look like he's leaning back just a tad. I tried to fix it by moving the arm a pixel closer. But that doesn't look right. Does that need fixing or is it just me? Oh, and did I solve the torso problem by using Dex's suggestion? I'll also try to work on toning down the colors. Would you mind suggesting a palette maybe?

(And let me point out something that me and kazuya know. Whenever someone uses the term, "That's just my style". What it usually means is, the artist is too lazy, afraid, or indignent to learn from his mistakes and make the sprite look better. It also shows that he's refusing to take advice and critique, even though it's patently obvious to others that he desperately needs it. Hope that explains my response to Kazuya for you.) 

Almost forgot, Thanks for the edits guys!

[NaCl]

Part of the torso problem was because the front plate was too far over. I think it looks rotated correctly now. Also I haven't seen any game change the thickness of legs to suggest depth, but the overall shade of the leg is good for making it go farther back.

If you are using GGale, then start picking colors with the HSL tab instead of RGB. Hue is just the color, saturation is how bright the color is (with 0 being grey and the max being a very bright version of that color). Luminance is how dark the color is. It can be kind of confusing and I'm still learning a lot about it, but basically things that are hit by light are high in saturation and luminance, and shadowed things are less saturated and have less luminance. So basically, take your midtone, or the color you want the armor to actually be, and make a lighter shade with more saturation and luminance, and then a shaded tone with less saturation and luminance. I'll edit this post with a possible palette when I get back home to my own computer.

I think what you're seeing with the leaning is that the torso is kind of far back. It is because I was sloppy, so try and move his entire torso forward instead of just his arm.

I agree about the "style" thought. Looks better, keep plugging away.

[Dr. Kylstien]

Left: I reduced and tweaked the colors. You had way too many blues, and I got rid of the darkest red too. In addition to the saturation changes the others suggested I added hue shifting: the brighter colors are greener and the darker ones purpler, which both improved contrast and allowed that darkest red to be removed.

Middle:  I moved the left (his right) arm in even more and moved the right arm out a little bit in an attempt to balance the two. I adjusted the right leg to look a bit more natural. I also tried to break up some banding, (shading closely following the outline) while adjusting the shading to fix what was lost in the color reduction.

Right: I had a little fun with the design, making it more colorful.

[xhunterko]

Hopefully, this doesn't look like just a copy over.



I followed your palette there. I liked the middle one the best, so that's the look I was going for. I thought the right edit looked like some kind of Rpg Mage battle sprite or something. I like the way you both explained things a bit. I tried to use the HSL for the Green type. I was going to use a different color for the secondary but red looked better. What I did to get the greens. Is, I first picked a green color that I thought closely matched the base blue. Which was the hue number.

Then, I picked the blue again, and merely changed the hue number to match the green I picked. For example. The lightest blue color in gale, has the HSL of 197, 71, 53. Then I went back to the Green, which in this case was 120. Then I merely gave the Green the same SL of the blue. In this case, 120, 71, 53. I did that for all the shades to attempt to match the colors. I think I see what you mean by 100% saturated now.

What I would like to know is. Did I learn anything from using your palette concerning the color change? Or am I just copying your edit and not improving at all?

[Dr. Kylstien]

Yes, the middle one is the one I was suggesting. I should have made it more clear that the one on the right isn't meant to be taken seriously. But no, copying my colors isn't going to help you much. In pixel art, it's important that every color count, which is why all your closely-spaced shades were wrong. Try making up your own colors without looking at my numbers, keeping in mind that you generally need at most 3 shades for any one color, and that darker shades are less saturated. Hue-shifting can be a deep subject, but for now just know that you can shift the hue up and down a bit from the base color for more contrast. Generally yellower highlights to bluer/purpler shadows looks good, since it mimics natural lighting.

Edit: Also, I suggest you look closer at the hood shading, you still have banding there and it makes the edge look sharp and geometric rather than natural.

[xhunterko]

Hue-Shifting: Hmmm,  So generally using the natural color opposites for highlight and shading? I'll see if I can't do something with that.

Hope this doesn't sound like a cop-out. But since the guys wearing armor, his "hood" is supposed to be part of it as well. I might change it though. (Ah well, I tried. I'll see what I can do about that banding. If I spot it.)

Anyways, thanks for the tips, hopefully I'll get this darn thing animated sooner or later. And some enemy types as well using this template.

[Dr. Kylstien]

Hope this doesn't sound like a cop-out. But since the guys wearing armor, his "hood" is supposed to be part of it as well. I might change it though. (Ah well, I tried. I'll see what I can do about that banding. If I spot it.)

That's not quite what I meant, sorry for the poor choice of words. What I meant to say is that it looks flat. (I was thinking sharp as in knife.)

[xhunterko]

Ah, kk that's a bit clearer now. (I think.)



Rearranged and tweaked more pixels. I would like to get some advice on general clothing. Since shiny metal armor legs shouldn't work for regular work clothes for a scientist or officer. Oh, and the hair sucks.

I also think I have the, er, hood piece fixed now right? The other thing I'm worried about is the base head. I'm fairly sure that it works with the helmet and all. Or do I need to change it a little?

EDIT: Oh, and I have a hard time handling expressions. Especially a "Surprise"/"OMG" look.

[xhunterko]

I'm trying to correct the "leaning way back" look. I also changed his shoe size a little. I'm not sure which leg positioning to go with still. But I like 3 the best so far. Except the arm. Gonna have to fix that.



As always, CnC please.

[xhunterko]

Just a logo. The middle, main character has been updated to the new style. I don't particularly like the pose I have the arms (for both) for the gun holding stance. But I guess I'll go on it for a bit. I'm going to change the gray to a kind of tan color maybe. The two enemy guards on both sides aren't current yet. I just wanted to throw something together for now.

As always, CnC if your available.

[Gil]

I made you an edit to show off some techniques that could be applied here. Mainly look at shading, color usage and anatomy. I tried to keep the character designs close to what you had.

[xhunterko]

Hey there!

I was thinking of trying something like that for the torso but wasn't sure how. I like the shading on the helmet though. Legs look just a tad, skinny. Anyway, thanks for the edit. I'll have to look at it closer.

[xhunterko]

Is this better?



It looks better to me. Still fussing over the helmet, thing.

Cnc please?

[Gil]

You really need to get the contrast down and pick a light source first. In your piece, the left leg has the light source to the left, the right leg has it to the right, the helmet is lit from the top, the torso from the bottom, the left arm from the right and the shoulder pads from the left and front.

The guy on the bottom right seems a bit more consistent in his shading and posture. The one on the left is leaning back though.

You have received a lot of edits, try looking at them sometime

As for palette, try to stay away from completely straight ramps, full saturation, etc. Also, try getting away from the primary colors. You use pure blues, reds and greens mostly. There's 255 different hues to pick from in most pixel art programs, you use only a range of 2 or 3.

And finally to answer your question: both helmets make some sense, it all depends on where your light source is...

[xhunterko]

If you can't tell a difference, then I've failed once again. I think I'll look for articles on shading and the like. The only problem is, that all you ever find is stuff for Isometrics, Rpgs, and Fighting games. Not too much platformer/shooter stuff out there. Anyways, I've got several article sites bookmarked. I can probably go through those while I do some Runecrafting(cough Runescape jargon cough). If you'd like to say something thats not already been said before, feel free to do so.

Thanks again.
CnC if your interested.

(oh, and I don't think i need anymore edits. If i can't tell by now, I won't be able to tomorrow.)
(Boy, is this turning out to be one looong credit list.)

[NaCl]

I'll say something I don't think has been said yet... do something new. You have made something you are at least somewhat happy with, and now you're afraid to deviate. I mean, the latest one looks virtually the same as the very first one you posted in the other thread. The amount he has actually changed is infinitesimal. You have squandered all the great critique, advice, and edits that have been provided. Also, don't just look for a tutorial the explains exactly step by step how to make what you want. That's worthless. If you want to learn how to shade, look into a shading tutorial for traditional media, or for virtually any media. You don't need a, "learn how to shade 50 pixel tall blue space ninjas in the side scrolling perspective" tutorial.

I'm not trying to offend you, I just think it hearing something like this is the best advice. Good luck.

[Gil]

I still can't see a light source, you shade everything on the edges only. There should be areas of darkness and light, while all your highlights are lines running down one end of a volume.

[xhunterko]

I find it amazing that one person can be given so much help and still not take a single step forward. I am closing the thread for now. I don't want to waste anybody's time anymore. Apparently I have no clue of what I'm doing and probably never will. Unless I feel like posting something again, it won't be on this thread. I really don't know why I don't understand basic concepts. Or know how to learn anything from basic crits and excellent edits. I appreciate everyone's time and effort with this.

Since I won't be able to get anyway with anybody's advice, I would appreciate it if the Mods would lock this thread. Thank you.

Sincerely, Xhunterko.
Apologies for wasted time.