AuthorTopic: The Knight  (Read 7024 times)

Offline NightyBR

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The Knight

on: November 23, 2008, 06:42:25 pm
Hello  :D

I'm new around here, although I know some of you from pixel joint.
So, I'm here to show a WIP:



My reference was an armor from "TDA's Armory", a mod for TESIV: Oblivion (Here.)

So, feel to critic the crap out of it =D

Thanks.

Update



Progress:


23/11                  23/11                  24/11
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 02:37:48 pm by NightyBR »

Offline Madre

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Re: The Knight

Reply #1 on: November 23, 2008, 07:25:58 pm
his legs should be more longer
seen a new world

Offline Atnas

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Re: The Knight

Reply #2 on: November 23, 2008, 08:03:43 pm


Longer legs, smaller head, get rid of the noise, and find a more balanced pose. The one he's in is going to fall over in no time.

Shade with solid colors, then worry about detail.

Offline Madre

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Re: The Knight

Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 09:13:37 pm


more longer in did

yes
as Atnas say.
1st the shadows
then put the lights
seen a new world

Offline ndchristie

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Re: The Knight

Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 12:27:18 am
although it's been said and slightly addressed, the pose is really quite boring.  why are his arms all stiff down by his side?  It's neither relaxed nor ready nor professional (nor any way a man might want to be).  try at very least bending the elbows :P.
A mistake is a mistake.
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The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline NightyBR

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Re: The Knight

Reply #5 on: November 24, 2008, 02:50:55 am
I can't get this legs right. I tried ti follow the example, but I'm not sure if it worked.



Now, to the shading.
Thanks everyone =D

Offline balls01

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Re: The Knight

Reply #6 on: November 24, 2008, 08:29:09 am


more longer in did

yes
as Atnas say.
1st the shadows
then put the lights

the colors you chose seem abit dark are they not?

your choice of color, is your voice of color
BallsArt

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: The Knight

Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 11:57:03 am
It compeltely depends on how you handle reflections, are you going to reflect a furtherly invisible environment? It may be very well possible to have green around the highlights on the right, and lots of blue coming from the top. The scene could be in a dark cave, creating this dark tone, with the highlights being blue from the sky visible far away, or more red from some torchlight. You can go everywhere with this, as it is metallic and reflective, yet not perfectly smooth enough to reflect clear shapes and images. There is freedom in this which you should try to grasp entirely, and then choose what you're going to do. There are nog constrains, who knows your armour is made of chrome, and everything is (nearly) 100% reflective, or perhaps it is painted. You don't have to decide on that yet, as basics can (and probably should) be finished first.

Offline NightyBR

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Re: The Knight

Reply #8 on: November 24, 2008, 02:31:12 pm
Actually, I really didn't care about the background, since as you can see in the reference, the armor isn't reflective.
BUT, I like the idea of making a background. Maybe, when I get the legs right, I might think about it.

I know this is no excuse, but I'm color blind (not totally), so I have some problems in the color picking. Still, I really want to try making the armor so the reflections are kind of "visible".

I'll work on it today, and keep you posted.

Thanks lots.

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: The Knight

Reply #9 on: November 24, 2008, 03:15:24 pm
In your reference the material is that of semi-polished stone, rather than metal. Oblivion's engine's just too bad to have decent reflectivity, especially on dynamic objects like this.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: The Knight

Reply #10 on: November 24, 2008, 03:32:42 pm
The material is perfectly fine for heavily worn wrought iron or unpolished steel.  Oblivion has it's share of highly polished units.  Not to mention this is a shot from a render most likely out of an editing program and not the game itself, so you can hardly bash the game for its lighting when there's no example of that here to critique.

the legs are ok but this really hasn't addressed feeling the pose, which was the purpose of the edit.  The legs themselves are a piece in a larger puzzle.
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline NightyBR

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Re: The Knight

Reply #11 on: November 24, 2008, 03:45:08 pm
Maybe I'll work on the arm/pose later, but now I'm focusing on the background.
I didn't want to make a cave/dungeon, so I started sketching a forest.



It's the first time I use this method to sketch, so I have no clue about what to do next.

Thanks.

Offline Willows

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Re: The Knight

Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 09:17:33 pm
Exceptionally boring composition for yer background there, nightie ;)

Looking at it yourself, couldja say it is interesting to look at? Does it look like a natural environment? Does it make you feel like it could be real?

Chances are, no. That's totally cool, though, 'cause those are daaamn lofty heights to shoot for and it's a bit of a walk to get there; a walk I've barely started walking on myself, but I like to think I'm far enough along to help a brudda out. Beware, this is probably going to get image- heavy.

I'm currently in school, and I've got two classes harassing me about composition. They've given me a pile of information on how to make things look awesome, and I'm still sifting through it to see what works and what doesn't, not to mention still trying to understand the storm of examples that were thrown at me. It's likely you're gonna experience something similar, but never fear! It's just a matter of time and effort, and you'll learn these things as well as anyone.

So what is composition? The best I could describe it would be the following:

"The positioning of elements within a scene in order to create a focal point while generating appeal"

Yep, scene. Not picture, not canvas... they're both 2d planes. Scene. A 3D area or room with a whole bunch of 3d objects arranged in such a way that it looks ridiculously cool. How? Let's start at the beginning.



BREAKING THE PICTURE PLANE:

Okay, the best way I can think of to describe this involves violently assaulting your monitor. Take an object, anything you have handy... heck! Use your hand! Pretend you can smash your hand THROUGH the screen so you could see your hand inside your picture plane. If you could actually do this, you'd be breaking the picture plane, which is almost literally that. Take an object, in your case probably a tree branch, and SMASH IT THROUGH THE LENS OF YOUR CAMERA (more or less).

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/tarzan/gall/tarzan_072.jpg

Check out how the treebranch in the above screenshot seems to come whistling past the viewer's head, breaking the picture plane and leading us right to what we're supposed to be looking at. It -could- be pushed a bit more (the branch practically touching the camera) but it gets the idea across anyhow.

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/tarzan/gall/tarzan_451.jpg

Check out the above for another example of breaking the picture plane. Yep, that table leg on the right. It's both pointing us straight to what we're supposed to be looking at, but it's also telling us that we're in the middle of the campground. If that leg weren't there, it would look like we're standing in an opening looking at a buncha monkeys walking across a line of random camping stuff.

No particular reason I'm using Tarzan, by the way. It just happens to be available. If you look for it, you'll find these compositional elements pretty much everywhere.


On to the next one! XYZ!

Brain-hurtingly simple, if you have a concept of the three axis..es... In case you're unfamiliar, X is horizontal space, so it runs left and right. Y is vertical space, so it runs up and down, and Z is depth, so it runs away and towards. If that's unclear, remember that the names of the axes aren't as important as the concept, and it's totally possible to understand the concept without understanding which axis is which.

http://www.moviewallpapers.net/images/wallpapers/2005/king-kong/king-kong-11-1024.jpg

Take the above shot from King Kong. It does NOT demonstrate XYZ effectively. The X axis is running perpendicular to our view, so it'd be a big red line between king kong and the T-rex. The Y axis is running up and down, as it should be, but the Z axis is running STRAIGHT AT US! AUGH! We can only really see evidence of the X and Y axis, but no Z.

http://www.softpedia.com/screenshots/King-Kong_1.png

Remember how last time we had the X axis running between king kong and the T-rex? We still do. That big red line is now running at roughly a 45 degree angle through 3d space! We can also see evidence of the Z axis (depth, running perpendicular to X) in the positioning of Kong's forearms. Huzzah, we've got all three axes visible! We've conquered the XYZ compositional element!

And yes, the Rex is also breaking the picture plane.

...but Willows, you cheated. You just made up a line between Kong and Rex and said it was the X axis! How come you have the power to just say that the X axis is running that way?

Tension. There's a technical name for it that I forget (Scene axis or summat idk) but the basic idea is that when two characters are interacting with each other, our brains form an imaginary line between them. So basically any time two characters are facing each other, they create a line of tension that can be "seen" unconsciously.

Another obvious example is any picture ever where you can see two perpendicular walls of a building. XYZ.


SCALE

Scale is another easy one. It's the contrast of elements in order to show relative size. The best/simplest/easiest way to do this is to directly overlap things that you want to contrast and the size will show. Take the above screenshot again, the XYZ one of Kong. See the chick? See Kong? He's huge, right? Scale.

Scale can also be accomplished by associating an unfamiliar object with a familiar one, something you'd already established the size of, or something that everyone knows the size of. Like this

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/toystory/gall/toystory_014.jpg

Here's a toy, here's a boy. We know how big the boy is (more or less), so we know how big the toy is.

PATHWAYS

Pathways is my fave. First time I heard of this, I thought yeaaaaah I know what pathways are! That's like when there's a... you know, road that you follow with your eyes that leads you to whatever you're supposed to be seeing. Right? RIGHT?

Well, not exactly. Sort of, but not really. No, not at all. Pathways are places you or the characters could physically go in 3d space within the scene. Though these can be as simple as roads, they're far more exciting if they're something you can go IN and AROUND and UP and THROUGH. Examples:

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/junglebook/gall/junglebook011.jpg

Look at this! Imagine, now, that you have no idea where the panther is gonna go. As far as you know, something could come RIPPING out from behind him with a mind to kill, and he'd have to beat a hasty, dodgy retreat. He could run down the branch he's on, vault to the trunk of the tree, vault off the trunk of the tree UP to the smaller branch to the left of the trunk, vault OVER AND BEHIND to the base of the large branch that travels left and... you get the idea. The scene has tons of pathways, tons of places to go over and through and around and behind.

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/atlantis/gall/atlantis534.jpg

Oops pathways. It's like a jungle gym/playground. All kinds of stuff your characters could do, keeps the unpredictability alive!


REPEATING SHAPES.

For some reason, I usually struggle to find examples of this one. It's simple, though. The idea is that the viewer will naturally look at any repeating shapes, largest first, and follow them backward in size. Knowing this, it's fairly easy to use it as a powerful directional force.

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/101dalmatians/gall/101dalmatians_740.jpg

Look! A whole bunch of little dogs! And look, there's mom, leading the way!

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/dumbo/gall/dumbo_402.jpg

You'll naturally get dragged to see the elephant in the bed in the middle.


HOTSPOTS AND THIRDS

Ohhh the magical thirds. Think really literal. If you put something on a third, people will see it. A third is a line running along a literal third of your canvas (so if your canvas is 9 inches wide, you'd have a third running vertically at 3 inches, and another at 6 inches) Hotspots are the intersections of these thirds lines.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/SaboteurGreg/Thirds_Lines_Art3.jpg

Mash. Kid is right on a hotspot, can't miss 'im. Where the line of monsters start is also on a hotspot. The leading monster, also on a hotspot. It's pretty in-your-face. I find that extreme foreground things work rather well if you can chuck 'em on thirds without obstructing your world. Also, having your entrances and exits on thirds works better than having all your characters enter/exit from offscreen. Don't ask me why, I don't know! It just works that way. The magic of art, I guess ;)


THE BILLIARD BALL EFFECT

Kay, this one takes some mindbending to get around. Billiard ball is an arrangement of elements that deflect you around the picture, either in a sequence or in a containing matter. Billiard ball's main purpose is to keep the viewer from leaving the scene, and its secondary purpose would be pointing the viewer to something important.

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/SaboteurGreg/?action=view&current=BBall_Art4.jpg

That should give you some idea of what it is, yeah? Yeah! If you actually understand what I'm talking about from that one paragraph and one picture, you're a deity. Another important thing to know about billiard ball is that it doesn't give a crap about 3d space.

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/SaboteurGreg/?action=view&current=BBall_Art4_lines-1.jpg

There, that's far more useful. Not only does it show you that you shouldn't try draw straight lines with a mouse, it also shows you how the dominating shapes in the background all reflect you back toward that central ship. They contain you in the shot and show you where to look, like a good billiard ball effect should.

http://magicalscreencaps.com/images/tarzan/gall/tarzan_451.jpg

Also billiard ball! Yep, that table leg that's breaking the picture plane is ALSO keeping us from leaving the scene. The gramophone / musical whatever it is on the left is doing the same thing, reflecting us back into the shot toward the monkeys, as is that wierd little bookstand to the back on the right.

As I said, it takes some mindbending to wrap your head around that one. Chances are, I've still got it somewhat wrong! NEXT.


...wait. There is no next. That's all I've got!

As you've noticed, there's lotsa overlap in these compositional elements, and the lines really aren't all as cut-and-dried as I tried to make them out to be. Hopefully I've instilled you with at most a hazy idea of what you should be thinking about when you're planning a background or scene. From this point, practice and experimentation is prolly gonna do more for you than any more words will! Take another stab at your background here, and use as many compositional elements as you can!

(Would it piss anyone off if I converted all those links to IMG tags?)

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: The Knight

Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 09:43:39 pm
Splendid information :O That's all i've got to say. Good luck on this background for now :)

Offline NightyBR

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Re: The Knight

Reply #14 on: November 28, 2008, 01:06:09 am
Willows, thanks a lot for the help. I am sure I will be able to put all of those techniques in my pics from now on.
I tried using all of your points to make a new background, but with the same concept.


I tried using the "Breaking the Picture Plane", "XYZ", "Scale", "Hotspots and Thirds", and a bit of "Pathways".
The red dot is where I'll position the knight once the background is ready.
That white stickman will be a dead guy.
That gray thingy in front of the tree will be a treasure chest.

Hope it looks better.

Thanks again.