Official Off-Topic Thread

[bengo]

Look I'm gonna stop discussing this after here, but uh, no he's pretty much pushing his method as the BEST method, as if other methods can't be done well either. I would agree with him if he wasn't so quick to dismiss other methods.

[ptoing]

I just read that article and I have to say I strongly agree. I played MGS 1 and it is an OK game imo, but something as pure and enchanting as the games he mentions, (ico, rez, zelda 1, another world) it is not, and never really motivated me to try the other MGS games. If the story in MGS was written as a book I certainly would not wanna read it. And as such I think what he says holds a lot of truth.

Also the whole dilution through committee thing is very true and I seen this first hand working at 2 different games companies in-house, as well as making a game with friends (Thrustburst) where there generally was not a lot of talk at all in terms of WE HAVE TO PLAN THIS, we just did stuff after very short discussions and went with the flow, and I think we did well.

Sorry to say this bengo, but to me most of the stuff you said sounds like you were mainly trying to be confrontational.

[bengo]

(Urgh, alright LAST one this time.)

Your own opinion does not dictate the world's, the MGS series is one of the most popular gaming franchises and for good reason, besides, you've only played the Gamecube remake of the original if I remember correctly, you've never touched the rest of the series. So maybe its not your cup of tea, just as this game is not my cup of tea, it doesn't make it necessarily BAD, it just doesn't really interest me, I mean I honestly don't think it holds up to a lot either but I'm sure there could be some interesting elements within the game. For now all I've seen though are touch things to make them shake and QTE battles.

Games that have done the whole you know, adding in cutscenes/text/"talk" right:
Any decent RPG
Metal Gear Solid 3
Uncharted 2
Half-life 2
Any decent Survival Horror (Silent Hill, Resident Evil)

Hell even Metroid Prime had tons of information you could read upon in the game, one of the games he stated as 'doing it correctly', even Another World had cutscenes, even if they were short. Whats wrong with not trying to center around gameplay? Isn't that what Helm was originally arguing anyway? As long as its done well, it shouldn't matter the methods used, but thats not saying there aren't better methods to go around things.

Look I'm not trying to be confrontational I'm just voicing my opinion, yes my last few statements were rather crude but thats because I've gotten sick of talking about this. Differing opinions cause confrontation, fact of the matter is, I probably enjoy most of the games all of you enjoy, this game to me though just doesn't look very interesting and the whole article is just a rant by him, its not proving whether the game will be good or not (relative to me, obviously), as I've said, John K rants a lot too but he's not exactly an amazing animator, even if his articles have some truth but obviously even in this thread, a lot of people still enjoy his work. So I guess if you guys think good-looking visuals and touching trees to make them shake is innovative, good for you, I just wasn't very impressed with what I saw, also that fight they had, literally just a very simplistic QTE, why is that innovative? I'm gonna try and stop here, alright?

[Helm]

I don't understand why if you are being fed up with a conversation your reflex is to be dismissive and appear simple-minded. If you don't want to talk about something, then... don't. Post about something else, cool off, do some art, whatever. I never meant to get you riled up by returning to the subject, I just thought you might enjoy reading the dude's rant that was/is very relative to what we were talking about.

Keep in mind that the time people spend on the internet talking with you is time they could spend doing other things too. It's a courtesy when someone engages with you on a subject in a civil manner and is interested in what you have to say. If you become irritated by difference of opinion to the point where you just shoot off whatever you have in mind no matter how confrontational or poorly considered it is, you're basically insulting the other person by wasting their time and giving them negative vibes in return for their good faith. And that happens a lot in life, no biggie, just keep in mind that if you do this to me (can't talk about anyone else) once, twice, three times then I will just not bother asking you about your opinion on anything anymore. So if you don't feel like articulating and carrying on a dialogue, then, don't. That this is a public forum shouldn't mean you should feel the need to reply to everything people tell you or else 'you lose' or anything. The person to have the last word doesn't win, he's just the one that has most time to waste sometimes

[Gil]

I don't even get the discussion here. Games are not meant to be something or something else.

Some games are artsy, some are talky, some are blowy-uppy, some are break-blocky, etc.

I personally find MGS to be a drab, boring excuse for a game series, but some people like it. I find Another World to be godly in appearance, but sloppy in controls. I love the art in CastleVania: SOTN, but I dread the noisy gameplay. I actually like the N64 version of CV a lot more, though no one else in the universe does.

Just as with music, it's about taste. You can talk about the quality of the elements of the game, but not wether people are supposed to like it or not.

MGS has beautiful custscenes, some people just don't like cutscenes.

[bengo]

I don't understand why if you are being fed up with a conversation your reflex is to be dismissive and appear simple-minded. If you don't want to talk about something, then... don't. Post about something else, cool off, do some art, whatever. I never meant to get you riled up by returning to the subject, I just thought you might enjoy reading the dude's rant that was/is very relative to what we were talking about.

Keep in mind that the time people spend on the internet talking with you is time they could spend doing other things too. It's a courtesy when someone engages with you on a subject in a civil manner and is interested in what you have to say. If you become irritated by difference of opinion to the point where you just shoot off whatever you have in mind no matter how confrontational or poorly considered it is, you're basically insulting the other person by wasting their time and giving them negative vibes in return for their good faith. And that happens a lot in life, no biggie, just keep in mind that if you do this to me (can't talk about anyone else) once, twice, three times then I will just not bother asking you about your opinion on anything anymore. So if you don't feel like articulating and carrying on a dialogue, then, don't. That this is a public forum shouldn't mean you should feel the need to reply to everything people tell you or else 'you lose' or anything. The person to have the last word doesn't win, he's just the one that has most time to waste sometimes

Well man I guess this forum just doesn't get my point of view, I feel like I'm going to have to completely break down WHY the video game is bad. Look I tell you what, I will watch the videos and come back to you later with WHY exactly this game is nothing special. I mean sure others can like it but I'm going to show you why I don't.

[Helm]

Well you're talking to me, I don't stand for this whole forum.

And you can't tell what a videogame will be like to play from a bunch of videos. If you want to make a case, wait until it's out or something.

[Mathias]

(been offline for a whiles but I's back)

This is an interesting and very relevant subject to me, yet I don't feel it really merits much in-depth discussion because it's so subjective (art VS gameplay).

But I'll add my subjective slant to the pile for the sake of the "consensus" occurring here - gameplay is everything.
Art doesn't matter.
A game can typically be re-skinned to look entirely different without affecting the gameplay at all. At it's core, a GAME better play well. Amateurish "programmer art" can be compensated for by brilliant gameplay. But can wretched gameplay be compensated for by brilliant art? - No. Because it's a game. You're not perusing an art gallery. Art isn't enough to constitute a worthwhile gaming experience.
Though I readily admit, I play many games just to see the art. But because my motivation is based on wanting to see the gfx, I'm no longer "playing" the game, as intended anyway - I'm just browsing an art library, like looking at an artist's website gallery. And the "gameplay" is only an obstacle to me seeing more art. Thus is the case with Machinarium - I don't care to solve the puzzles, I just wanted to see the art in it. At that point it's no longer a game for me, it's a "website gallery". Now had Machinarium been created to have gameplay I actually enjoyed (sorry, not a puzzle lover) it would be a perfect game . . . in my opinion. There's that subjective element again.

Swords & Sorcery (or whatever) has a wonderful pixel art style and I want to see every pixel in the game. If the gameplay is uneventful and boring as Bengoshia assumes, will I endure it just to see all the gfx, eh probably not. Or maybe I will, who knows. It might even depend on my mood at the time. We humans are pretty temperamental; we can't be trusted.

So I guess it has much to do with what is be satisfied in the player, when playing the game. Games today are taking many forms. We've all seen those "art games" or "interactive media", etc - i.e.  The Graveyard. What a game is, is rather ambiguous. Defining "game" isn't important, it's what effect is had on the player that matters - and whether or not the effect is what the developers intended. Machinarium's devs didn't intend for me to use their game as a "website gallery" but that's all it is to me.

Then, to each his own. What a game is and what's important depends on the individual. K, so much for not meriting much talk.


**EDIT  -  wait, does this mean I agree with Gil!?!?

[7321551]

I'm pretty sympathetic to that line of thinking, Mathias, but I think I'll play devil's advocate a little, to explore this a bit.

Art doesn't matter.
[...]
Amateurish "programmer art" can be compensated for by brilliant gameplay.

What if all of the representational images were replaced by rectangles - the protagonist is a fuschia rectangular hitbox fighting chartreuse rectangular hitboxes on a teal backdrop, accompanied by dead silence (sound has sort-of gotten the shaft in this discusison). Would the gameplay really be sufficient to keep you immersed?

In my case, I've been repelled by several games with incompetent graphics & stopped playing - occasionally even before I had time to fully observe the gameplay, which is unfortunate.

Here's one way to resovle this: excellent gameplay mechanics are necessary but not sufficient. Competent graphics are also necessary but (definitely) not sufficient.
The base requirements are excellent gameplay & merely competant graphics, so it's still weighted toward gameplay, which seems right.

The relationship would be sort-of analogous to composition & arrangement in music - Composition is of primary importance: it's what people will mostly associate with the tune in question - the complicated relationship between melody/harmony & rhythm. Arrangement - the outline of which instruments will play which role & in what manner - is a secondary consideration, & yet a poor arrangement, ie. the decision to replace lead marimba with a melodic farting cow, can ultimately be a game-breaker.

[ptoing]

What if all of the representational images were replaced by rectangles - the protagonist is a fuschia rectangular hitbox fighting chartreuse rectangular hitboxes on a teal backdrop, accompanied by dead silence (sound has sort-of gotten the shaft in this discusison). Would the gameplay really be sufficient to keep you immersed?

Noiz2A by Kenta Cho (ABA Games) is almost completely vector squares (as are many of his other games, it is just especially square). Tho the gameplay still is fun enough if one likes manic shmups. It is all relative. Of course for something like Shadow of Colossus or MGS squares would not work, because there is more to those games than gameplay, and that is characters. Making a player somehow relate it and empathise with a square would take some pretty hardcore magic.