AuthorTopic: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid  (Read 14031 times)

Offline Dusty

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[WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

on: September 22, 2008, 11:10:44 am
A pyramid I'm working on. It is intended to be Zelda-esque, especially in terms of perspective. I choose the colors of the pyramid, but brown/orange is my weak-spot so I'm not really sure how it looks. The BG-color is not my choice, but that may be changed later. This is one large image, so I'm not limited by tiles or anything.

I think I'm pretty much done the front. I still have to do an entrance, but I think I'm going to move on to the other faces of the pyramid for now.



I'm not particularly fond of the rear face. I wanted to portray the same shape in the bricks as the front face, but I think it just ends up looking like the space between the bricks is excessively large. I don't know how to fix this, though.

I guess I should also post this. The person whom I was doing this for wanted me to look to this for inspiration:

Though I think the only thing similar is the structure(which lacks a whole rear). It's from Zelda: Four Swords.



bumpdate (9.23.08)
Worked on the sides a bit. I don't want to progress anymore though in case I'm going in the wrong direction.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 07:51:15 pm by Dusty »

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 09:58:56 pm
This is not very helpful but i notice that your cracks cross multiple bricks whereas the zelda cracks are restricted to each individual brick. Maybe doing it their way is better. Also the zelda bricks on the side are smaller than those on the front.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Dusty

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 10:04:17 pm
This is not very helpful but i notice that your cracks cross multiple bricks whereas the zelda cracks are restricted to each individual brick. Maybe doing it their way is better. Also the zelda bricks on the side are smaller than those on the front.
Well I'm not trying to really clone the Zelda pyramid, but it was basis of the idea. I actually tried to make sure mines was a little more logical in design. See, each side has the same amount of bricks and I definitely didn't see a reason to make the bricks on the side smaller.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #3 on: September 23, 2008, 10:25:16 pm
Maybe its to give the illusion of perspective. Something else I notice is that the line for the centre of the bricks on the side keeps moving up.I have no idea how to draw a pyramid i leave it up to you.

edit: thats why they shrunk it. So that the line from one line of bricks and the line on the row below the row below lines up. If that makes any sense.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 10:28:27 pm by sharprm »
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 10:37:22 pm


What I did hopefully will seem pretty clear to you.

Offline Dusty

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #5 on: September 23, 2008, 11:36:10 pm


What I did hopefully will seem pretty clear to you.
Damn that looks so sweet... but I honestly don't know what to do.

Zelda 3 is really screwed perspective wise. Some structures show all 4 sides, while some take a perspective like yours. I guess that would mean I can choose either one, but I'm not entirely sure yet.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 11:39:53 pm by Dusty »

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #6 on: September 24, 2008, 01:03:29 am
I made the top edges catch highlights.
I greatly diminished the 'depth' lines between tiles, you don't need two pixel rows there.
I made it darkest in the crevices where light would not creep through.
I put a highlight under the crack to suggest sharpness.
I put more darkness in selective parts of the cracks.
I fixed the perspective of the sideways tiles. The zelda inspiration seems wrong to me.
That's pretty much it, does it make more sense now?

Offline Dusty

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #7 on: September 24, 2008, 01:37:42 am
I made the top edges catch highlights.
I greatly diminished the 'depth' lines between tiles, you don't need two pixel rows there.
I made it darkest in the crevices where light would not creep through.
I put a highlight under the crack to suggest sharpness.
I put more darkness in selective parts of the cracks.
I fixed the perspective of the sideways tiles. The zelda inspiration seems wrong to me.
That's pretty much it, does it make more sense now?
Heh, sorry I did understand everything you did. I was just at odds at which perspective to go with. While the Zelda one seems wrong, the rest of the world is kind of in that perspective and I'm not entirely sure if using the same perspective as you would look too out of place.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 01:47:09 am
I think this type of thing would look ace!

Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline tehwexxl0rz

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #9 on: September 24, 2008, 02:19:10 am
I agree with sharprm's perspective suggestion. :y: While Helm's perspective is more correct, sharpm's edit seems to follow the "rules" of the distorted perspective of the Zelda games. The angle you've been using is too close to top-down.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #10 on: September 24, 2008, 07:09:22 am
I dont think helms perspective is correct at all. The lines on the sides are parralel to the line on the edge. It would work a block that is sheared but not a pyramid. (or it would work for a triangle extrapolated back but not a pyramid).
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #11 on: September 24, 2008, 02:00:28 pm
Helm's perspective actually would work, as you go down the pyramid the number of bricks on the side increase. notice how each layer is a little bit smaller than the one below it. So if you built the whole thing this way it would work and the perspective would be automatically correct. The only difference is that he's building the pyramid using "real" blocks instead of just texturing flat planes.
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #12 on: September 24, 2008, 02:59:01 pm
Both the original pyramid and dusty's one are not in proper perspective. They are game art that is ment to be using tilesets to simulate an object with a slightly believable height. If you want to draw a realistic pyramid, use vanishing points. If you want to draw game art, find a median between reality and applicability in game art. I believe the zelda sideways lines on the blocks are at a very odd angle and I indeed would suggest 45 degrees. It's a matter of artistic sensibility, not reality.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #13 on: September 24, 2008, 10:23:03 pm
I think why i think zelda perspective is okay is because I am assuming we are building a pyramid with smooth sides - like how they were built
new. You guys are looking at a old pyramid, after those finishing stones have removed. Zelda looks fine to me assuming its a smooth pyramid. I think helms would only work for a stepwise pyramid.



edit: whatever perspective you go for dusty, think about making the bricks lighter as you go higher.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 10:25:09 pm by sharprm »
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 12:20:38 am
I really can't understand that graph you posted.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #15 on: September 25, 2008, 12:29:37 am
You are using square bricks. Like the mayan temple.

The Zelda pyramid looks okay in my mind if they are using sloped bricks. Like a new Egyptian pyramid.

The diagram just shows that if you use Helms edit but connect the same point on each brick (like if you made sloped bricks) then it conforms
to the Zelda perspective. 
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline The B.O.B.

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #16 on: September 25, 2008, 01:19:58 am


   Actually, no, I think you contradict yourself with this graph. Sharprm, both your edit, and the Zelda pyramid, really have no solid structure, or follow a basic structure of a pyramid. In fact, the way you've laid them out makes it seem as if they are just streched, computer skin textures, rather than following proper perspective. Kinda' unnatural if you ask me. Also, Look at your "yellow" angle line you've drawn to compare the brick's direction, as they go up: Helm's is the basic kind where the bricks being laid will eventually lessen in numbers, causing a tip in the center, as each brick's vertical side is nearly identical in angle, where as the bricks in your edit interrupt/cross the main edge of where the pyramids large combined sides meet. If we were to look at the structure of your pyramid from birds eye, the top portion would probably NOT be centered in the middle of the square(which is kinda' what Egyptians were shooting for..), but rather a slanted pyramid where one face is larger than the other, causing the point at the top to be off-center. It's not hard to follow, really.
   I think what's being said here is Zelda's pyramid is just there for the sake of being "pretty" detailed art, but poor structure.(kinda' like a reality check for fighting games where for some reason, big boobed, half naked women are not harmed by giant axes, and swords, even though they have little to no armor...just there for the sake of being pretty really, but come out a macho humorous satire of an actual warriors body, in the end)
   If the artist here truly wishes to follow just the pretty details of the said Zelda game, rather than basic building blocks of an actual Pyramid that give it DEPTH, than I think Dusty should be a bit more specific with where he wants critique on his initial post. Otherwise, it tends to confuse people...

...

...or it could just be me, I don't know.
my back hurts...

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #17 on: September 25, 2008, 01:42:58 am


I only contradicted myself when i said "whatever perspective you choose" - they are the SAME perspective. The only way to stelle this is with 3ds max and i can't be arsed.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Dusty

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #18 on: September 25, 2008, 02:33:48 am
Well, thanks for the discussion everyone... In the end though I can only choose a couple of perspectives -- Helm's or my current one.

Any other perspectives will have awkward angles that probably won't be able to be fixed without a ton of manual work. I'm having a little bit of a hard time trying to work out what Helm has done(in execution... I know what he did, I'm just having a hard time actually doing it right), but when I do figure it out I'll be sure to post it.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #19 on: September 25, 2008, 02:36:26 am


Industrious little japanese fellas that worked on Zelda >> Helm. Accept it.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 05:02:39 am
I'm sure the Zeld artists >> me (whatever that means, I'll take your word for it) but I seriously don't see how it has anything to do with the matter at hand?
Your position isn't lucid because you do not ghrasp the SCIENCE behind what you're attempting to do. This isn't the case of me not understanding what the Zelda people did, it is in trying to find ways for it to work, possibly better than in the original version.



If Dusty wants the exact viewpoint of the Zelda screen, these are some of the options he has available to him. I would personally go for C. because it's a compromise between actuality and game art.
If we wants OMG REALISM, something closer to A (though not eyeballed but actually plotted) is the way to go.
If we wants to make easy tiles to use fast, he should go with B.

If he can at all avoid having to show the back of the pyramid, I'd go with the stacked block version I suggested below because it works both visually as game art and convinces of 3d volume. Plus it's very easy to tile like B, without being stupid with the perspective.

Offline sharprm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #21 on: September 25, 2008, 05:20:25 am
>> means that I think the Zelda pyramid is genius and I don't see why people assume your blocks are better than professional japanese game artists.

I get the science. Its highschool maths.

Pretty graph. Pity your conclusion is to go for B, which is what I AM ADVOCATING! You've sidestepped the issue which is your blocks don't work.There aint as much pyramid above the halfway point as there is below. If your artistic sensibilities say thats okay, fine. I think its wrong. I think it'd look BAD on a big pyramid. If you've made a big pyramid and if it looks okay, fine. Otherwise, dont post just a corner piece to hide its flaws.

Heres a diagram with equal amounts of pyramid above and below, and you get fucked up stuff at the top.



edit: the above diagram is wrong, i need to have started with a different one, ill check it out and post later.

edit2: I guess helm's method CAN satisfy the criteria that zeldas did - cracks line up every second row and same amount of pyramid above and below the middle of the side.



Looks like the gap at the bottom should be larger than the gaps at the side, but then again that contradicts helm, and that goatfucker is always right, huh peoples?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 07:10:43 am by sharprm »
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Dusty

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #22 on: September 25, 2008, 05:35:28 am
Industrious little japanese fellas that worked on Zelda >> Helm. Accept it.
Don't mean to off-topic my own thread, but that's a terrible thing to say. Not only because it's pretty rude, but because you're making a pretty blind assumption. You assume the people that made graphics for LttP back in 1991 knew more than Helm does here in 2008. They may have, they may not have. Either way, art, and specifically pixel art, has come a long, long way since 1991. It's not bogus to think that Helm has more technical knowledge, and overall skill than the people who worked on LttP. In fact, I see much, much work posted here on Pixelation that tops the work of the "Japanese fellas that worked on Zelda"... in skill, creativity, and in knowledge(in my opinion). Using the fact these people worked on Zelda as a basis for proving your point is pretty flawed.

Offline tehwexxl0rz

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #23 on: September 25, 2008, 11:07:17 am
I would go with Helm's route B if only because I find the parallel lines more aesthetically pleasing. Of course the tilibility is also a bonus too.

On that note, have some tiles! :P Whipped these up based on Helm's example:



« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:12:25 am by tehwexxl0rz »

Offline Beoran

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #24 on: September 25, 2008, 11:22:59 am
To put my two cents into this debate, it all depends on the height of the pyramid, the type of perspective (parallel or with a focus point) and the angle of viewing. I'm assuming here that you want to draw a pyramid with "Egyptian proportions", that is depth equal to width, and height 60% of the depth.

Also, as you can see in the linked reference image "Zelda 3" uses a "one half" view, that is, a perspective from 45 degrees above, using a parallel projection without focus point. With such a perspective the backside of a pyramid with Egyptian proportions will never be visible, because the top angle is less than 90 degrees. With the same "Zelda 3" perspective, the backside of the pyramid will only start to show when it's less than 50% as high as it is wide and deep. That's why sharprm's pyramid looks a little flat.   Of course, I'm not saying that this is the /best/ possible perspective, far from it. :p Anyway, I also made a small drawing to explain what I mean, I hope it's clear.

My drawing (too much AA because done in a vector editor):


Zelda 3 Reference (linked because it's huge):


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/zelda/images/1/17/PyramidOfPower.png
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:31:29 am by Beoran »
Kind Regards, Beoran.

Offline Kazuya Mochu

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #25 on: September 25, 2008, 11:36:36 am
I think you are all tripping around the perspective issue and I cant say that anyone is completly right. still, its a game, and it should have readability over realism. if distorting the perspective does the trick then why not?


Kaz
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Offline Helm

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #26 on: September 25, 2008, 11:59:59 am
Did it burn your ass that I didn't like your comic about Bladerunner or something? I seriously went out of my way to not insult your tastes. Not only you make a lot of assumptions that turn out not to be true which mars your otherwise worthwhile criticism here, you repeatedly insult me as you go. You're free not to like me but can you keep it off the forum, please? I am trying to help Dusty, you're trying to help Dusty too presumably so I don't see where an agenda to insult me comes into play. I don't know who you think you are to me and what exactly I owe you so you can talk to me like that, but here's a suggestion: drop the attitude take a time out and reconsider what it is you're doing here. You have a strike.

Offline PypeBros

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #27 on: September 25, 2008, 01:03:04 pm
My drawing (too much AA because done in a vector editor):


This is an interesting base, imho. It takes into account the fact that something at 45 when viewed from the ground cannot keep 45 when you're elevating yourself. It is still a bit "distorded" and my eyes prefer not seeing it completely or they shout "that volume cannot exist", but a pyramid in a game would be too large to fit a single screen, which is (imho) why the Z-perspective is accepted by gamers. Altogether, it is more "spiky".

I also see an important feature of helm's pyramids which is that "corner" stones are really corners rather than being criss-crossed rectangular bricks as you would see them on a regular wall of a regular house. The rightmost pyramid on the following picture fail to do so, and imho this contributes to giving it a look of "wall texture flattened on a pyramidal object".

Offline ptoing

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #28 on: September 25, 2008, 01:58:17 pm
Just modelled the "perspective" used on the Zelda ALTTP "pyramid" in 3D Ortho view, then switched to perspective, and then rotated. Looks like ALTTP plays somewhere near R'lyeh.
Just made a variation. There probably are more ways to model this in 3D to make it look peoper in ortho view, but I doubt it can ever make any sense in perspective.



Point in case. The stuff in Zelda looks how it looks because it has to tile easy and with as little tiles as possible and still represent what you need to see well. REPRESENT, not depict realistically. The indented stuff helm made could be made to work no problem as well. Tho this are not matters of perspective but of cleverly fudging it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 04:31:48 pm by ptoing »
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Offline Indigo

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #29 on: September 25, 2008, 06:37:44 pm


Industrious little japanese fellas that worked on Zelda >> Helm. Accept it.

the whole debate about the perspective (or the 2:1 vs 1:1 ratio aspect on the sides) is entirely pointless in my mind.  They both are equally as broken in perspective, yet both work out the same in-game.  Sharprm's example here is not accurate to how it would look in-game.   Not to mention helm's edit was hardly about the perspective as much as it was about the rendering of it.

for the record though - I do think the 2:1 ratio would be better for this type of situation, though it offers no structural difference - just aesthetic.

(excuse the very very quick edit)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 06:49:52 pm by Indigo »

Offline chriskot

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #30 on: September 26, 2008, 12:54:54 am
Is anything in this game going to happen on top of the pyramid? The reason that I ask is because I always assumed that the weird perspective on the Zelda 3 pyramid was to provide some atmosphere from the top.



The perspective on the Zelda pyramid is intentionally skewed so that you get a view of the sky from the top, instead of just the other side of the pyramid (which wouldn't be quite as interesting). It's a neat trick, but if you're never going to be at the top of the pyramid then I can't see any real reason to use that perspective.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 12:57:26 am by chriskot »

Offline Conzeit

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #31 on: September 26, 2008, 01:13:07 am
It's not bogus to think that Helm has more technical knowledge, and overall skill than the people who worked on LttP. In fact, I see much, much work posted here on Pixelation that tops the work of the "Japanese fellas that worked on Zelda"... in skill, creativity, and in knowledge(in my opinion).

I doubt that is the case...but I also disagree that Zelda art is better than anything posted here. We ocasionally do stuff that is better than in videogames, but not because we are mighty pixel gods or anything of that sort.

I think that if there were a discussion in the Zelda team about the pyramid it would be more along the lines of "fuck dude you need to get this done by TODAY, this fucking piramid has taken 3 days already and we still have to do that boss..."etc. The fact that is usually the driving thought behind game art probably influences any and all impressions you might have about the art from either of the  sources.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 01:16:55 am by Conceit »

Offline Dex

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #32 on: September 26, 2008, 01:17:46 am
Wow, this turned into a fairly large argument. Right now, I'd say Helm's edit shows what you need to do with the tiles and the shading.

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Re: [WIP - 9.23.08] Pyramid

Reply #33 on: September 26, 2008, 07:56:34 am
One other thing i note in Zelda's pyramid that is worth keeping is how the "vertical" lines of the side bricks are parallel to the rear edges of the pyramid.
<-->

This helps the player believing that the structure is "normal" despite skewed perspective etc. on the rightmost pyramid of what indigo called "helmsperspective", you have those line forming a nearly 90 angle, which completely ruins the perception of the volume. Whatever you pixel on the rear side of that pyramid, it's gonna to look awkward (imvho).


the leftmost pyramid on this third picture follow the "bricks // rear edge" and it has a strong effect in making me believe in the volume. Yet i still belive that it won't give you the feeling that you see a square-based pyramid unless "front edges" are sharper than 45

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I also disagree that Zelda art is better than anything posted here
Have we all forgotten that "megaman mockup frenzy" ?