AuthorTopic: Lizardman - please critique  (Read 1024 times)

Offline SeinRuhe

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #10 on: May 23, 2021, 02:50:58 pm
SeinRuhe - I was really happy to see this much response :)
I would love to see your lizard from the past!  and feel welcome to do your own take on this one for sure!
So about lights. That light ball next to it is very helpful. To me, on it it looks like the light comes from the top, on the lizard the light is from the top and sort of from the left. Your arm looks much better with the cluster of light rather than my strings. However, if the light would come from the top, or a bit more to the right, I find it a bit hard to figure out how the light would work on the arm, since the light would be somewhat more parallel to underarm itself. If it from the top and the arm is at an angle, wouldn't it look rather similar to how it looks now?
I really like your colors. I want to place this creature in a sort of dank and cold area, while I do feel yours is warmer and nicer to look at, how to think about the area it is placed in?
Thank you!

Well, this technique works both ways, the rule of thumb goes: If the light is warm, shadows should be cold. If the light is cold, shadows should be warm. This light behaviour really happens on nature most of the time, is just really subtle. There are lots and lots of exceptions and you can also completely ignore this, but is a nice thing to have to in mind to make colors look pleasing in a sort of easy way.



The way light interacts with planes is simple, yet really *really* really hard if you're still getting the hang of it. My suggestion in this case is to leave the rationalization aside for a bit and simply grab a flashlight, your cellphone, a candle or any source of light, lock yourself in the darkest place you can find and see how light interacts with your arm from any given angle. This exercise should give you the insight you are looking for.

The light ball is just a reminder for the lightsource direction, you can use it or not as long as you have the direction clear on your mind.

If you want to give a look to my lizard here it is, is really old and have lots and lots of mistakes so you shouldn't take it as an example!




EDIT: If you really, really want to understand how light works you could also read the book "How To Render" or "Color and Light", For what I understand seems like the concept that is confusing you is Light Decay/Falloff.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 02:59:32 pm by SeinRuhe »

Offline cels

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #11 on: May 23, 2021, 02:55:02 pm
Some examples you may find helpful, if you're not already familiar with them.

https://pixeljoint.com/p/61711.htm




http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/130816.htm
http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/139814.htm

It's possible to use the some of the same colours for near and distant limbs and/or keep a very restricted palette.

I'll leave it to the others (like SeinRuhe) to explain it, I just like to imitate other people.  :-[

Offline fskn

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #12 on: May 23, 2021, 05:12:37 pm
Okay, so let's pretend for once I'm not the lazy bastard that I truly am. Then if I wanted to emphasize the musculature of the creature, while still keeping some texture in there, I would do something more like this:



I don't think I would add the sternocleidomastoid (phew! what a word), though. Or wouldn't make it so prominent.

PS: I keep finding colors that could be used elsewhere on the creature...
PPS: "The grabbing hands grab all they can..." (they look more like scratching hands, though...)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 05:16:50 pm by fskn »

Offline spajjder

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #13 on: May 23, 2021, 08:27:08 pm
Really digging the new design fskn

and thank you again guys for your advice.

I started redoing the arm.. does this make any sense?



gonna move on the more parts... gotta say, feel hard not to copy once I have a guide right in front of me. gonna redo the hand a bit more, but tried to implement the muscles your guide showed bengo
Ill post again once i get some more done. Just wondered about the arm for now

Offline bengo

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #14 on: May 23, 2021, 08:49:06 pm
It's looking better! Forms are reading much more clearly and they make more sense.

If you need to mimic what I did that's fine whatever helps you understand. I gave you that anatomy breakdown for a reason. Just don't directly trace or copy it directly over. I don't think that will help you learn. Something that might help you would be understanding how the pectoralis major fits into everything:




The bicep will go in first, then the pectoralis major will cover that and then the deltoid will go on top of all of that. I tried my best to show it in my anatomy breakdown too. You're not really showing this bicep-pec-deltoid connection in your latest update and I think that would help that area if you did at least a bit. The pectoralis major does connect on the humerus (thats the upper arm bone) after-all so it's going to have to reach over there.

P.S. I would consider Selout (selective outlining) or getting rid of the line in areas altogether.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 08:54:41 pm by bengo »

Offline fskn

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #15 on: May 23, 2021, 09:24:45 pm
Besides that, I think you should make the trapezius more obvious. The separation between it and the deltoid.

This part here, which funnily enough I have the perfect gif to illustrate:



Of course your monster does not need to be super duper fit, buuut...

Offline spajjder

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #16 on: May 24, 2021, 09:29:08 am
Hello again

I tried reworking the arm a bit using your reference quite heavily
does it look better?

not sure if the bicep clearly goes under the pec.
Also a bit confused about the bicep brachialis relation.

Tried to implement some light hint of scales and I added one more color for the undersides of the arms and to smooth of some other places



*edit  perhaps i can make the trapezius a bit bigger... hm.
Muscles are good fskn... :)  Not sure why, but I think they might not read so well from a distance now. should I use darker lines?

I actually am trying to make this guy here, but a bit modified.  thinking of adding the weird chin thing now that I added shadows under the jaws

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedroth


edit 2

Changed a bit more

Now on the left the trap is bigger, not sure what looks better

started to work on back leg and changed the tongue and chest a bit. Also slights changed the pecs



edit 3



So here it is... left one has larger trap and the chin flap thingy.

Wonder what you guys think look better

for the chin flip thing I looked at this

https://images.uesp.net/2/2f/ON-concept-Daedroth.png
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 03:54:33 pm by spajjder »

Offline fskn

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #17 on: May 24, 2021, 05:27:31 pm
The thing is that the deltoid should connect to the clavicle (in the front, and the top of the scapula in the back, going around the shoulder) at the side, not at the top. At the top there's bone showing up. So there should (IMHO) be a clear separation there at the collar bone.

You could see it like this too: The deltoid starts at the same height as the pecs. Not above.

Here are some references I gathered for you:
https://imgur.com/a/do23h7m

Also check out these models that you can spin around and study on Sketchfab:
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/ecorche-male-musclenames-anatomy-33162ec759e04d2985dbbdf4ec908d66
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/anatomy2-39d4ecb5f3cd4485b534405d7714d4a3



EDIT:
Okay, my turn on drawing the muscles on top of the monster.



So, on the arm, the deltoid goes over everything. Then comes the pecs, and then the mass of the brachioradialis and extensor carpis radialis longus on top of the brachialis and biceps brachii. The brachioradialis kind of connects with the tendons of the triceps on the back, apparently...
The biceps brachii sits on top of the brachialis muscle, which acts kind of like a cushion behind the biceps. It's not just that thin stripe there (in blue).



This is the part I was talking about that, I believe, needs a better, clearer separation.
BUT... This is pixel art we're talking about here, and because of the resolution some of that may not appear.
AND... Some of what I drew is my interpretation of your own drawing.

Now that i look at it, there's something funky going on with the leg too. That muscle that comes straight down at the front of the leg, the rectus femoris doesn't go down as much as a muscle.
Here's an illustration so that I can keep on being lazy and not draw it myself (also wouldn't be as accurate):



---

Here's a couple more illustrations of that:






And one of the back of the torso, because why not:

« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 06:53:20 pm by fskn »

Offline spajjder

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #18 on: May 24, 2021, 06:38:36 pm
So I looked at the 3d model.

If I look correctly, my whole arm is too high...
Since the colar bone are at the same level where the deltoid ends not where it starts...

edit

Not sure... does this look better?  i changed the legs and the arm.. the pec entry over the bicep and under the deltoid looks... hm
not sure if I should light up the path from the colar bone to the bicep or not



« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 07:26:02 pm by spajjder »

Offline fskn

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Re: Lizardman - please critique

Reply #19 on: May 24, 2021, 06:53:48 pm
So I looked at the 3d model.

If I look correctly, my whole arm is too high...
Since the colar bone are at the same level where the deltoid ends not where it starts...

Yep, exactly!