AuthorTopic: Official Off-Topic Thread  (Read 312643 times)

Offline skw

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #370 on: August 10, 2008, 05:08:55 pm
yeah, dissuade Helm from thinking that nobody would care to read them! :)
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Offline Conzeit

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #371 on: August 10, 2008, 06:59:34 pm
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I didn't want to block any one's opinion, or thoughts; just felt someone was going to end up in trouble, as religious subjects tend to end up making things worse, especially by conflicting minds.

Trouble is a good thing to get in once in a while. A strike on an internet forum... it's not much if it sets someone to thinking more critically about some things. Staying out of trouble and not discussing a serious issue once in a while is more contributive to the withering of a community for me. I don't like these "NO POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS DISCUSSIONS ALLOWED" places. Sure tempers flare up and that can be controlled with moderation. But in the bysides people express themselves and engage in lucid conversation. It's not so bad.

And I thank you very very much for that! I just opened this thread and i'm feeling like I found a forgotten bag of candy or something. LOVE this kind of discussion and I feel a little funny about finding it here....here's hoping we have a "official Off-topic Spirituality Thread"

BOB: Considering the discussion started from Alan Moore's work, I am not at all surprised this is where it drove to  :D

Offline chriskot

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #372 on: August 10, 2008, 10:02:28 pm
I'm agnostic, but being agnostic doesn't mean I'd give a fifty-fifty chance for the existence of God, it's more like.. a very low chance in favour of anything supernatural in my case, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. So I consider the Christian God as unlikely as any other deity human kind has ever believed in.
I'm an agnostic, but lately I've noticed that most people slightly misunderstand the definition of agnosticism. To my knowledge, the true definition is that an agnostic is someone who believes that the existence of a god is something that cannot be proven or disproven. The idea behind this is that any evidence of a deity could possibly be broken down and described by conventional science, while any evidence against a god could have been divinely placed there. For this reason, agnostics are usually broken down into agnostic-theists (people who acknowledge that their absolute faith in god is irrational), atheist-agnostics (people who acknowledge that their absolute faith against god is irrational, like me), and undecided agnostics.

I've often found that a lot of religious folk seem to think that atheism seems like a sad, empty way to live, but I really disagree with that. I always thought that the idea that this sort of universe could arise by chance is even more elegant than a belief system that requires some sort of plan behind it all. It's beautiful, really.

I also like to see it this way: http://xkcd.com/167/ (I've actually had a very similar conversation with a friend once)

   I'm no moderator here, and I apologize if it felt like I was stepping on toes when suggesting it. And yes, I'm American, born and raised, and I REFUSE to believe that it's just U.S.A., whose religions make people uncomfortable to speak about en mass, regarding subjects like this.
I can't speak for any other parts in the world, but people here in Canada also often get pretty uncomfortable speaking about religion. That said, I'm also one of the people who enjoys this sort of conversation.

Talking of artsy and pretentious, I have a blog up! Johnnyspade (used to be Skurwy) is helping be translate my comics into english and slowly upload them all. Might be worth to read, perhaps to RSS!

Asides-Bsides

Come over, comment! I will be updating regularily.
I actually quite like it. The "Meet Babis" one in particular.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #373 on: August 10, 2008, 10:25:34 pm
I think a healthy disassociation with any sort of 'high meaning' is best in order to be healthy after a lot of searching. Self-awareness is inherently pathologic so the rainbow at the end of the existential journey more me is a reaffirmed belief in nothing in particular, and a stoic comfort in that.

This seems, to be honest, as much a way of running from the issue as blind acceptance of paradise, and full of criss-crossing logic. 

If self-awareness is, as you say, inherently pathologic, then there is something in there to be aware of, which directly contradicts the idea that there is nothing in particular, and there's nothing stoic about hiding from truth.

Perhaps this was a miswording?  It makes sense to me if you say that the pursuit of self-awareness is pathologic (because self-awareness is unachievable), therefor nothing is to be believed in and there's comfort in knowing that there's nothing.  Although I disagree with that viewpoint (as it takes the rather arrogant view that you could, in you twenties, know enough to know that there is nothing), it follows a process.

Personally I believe that it is the pursuit of this unattainable knowledge that gives life some meaning, and that the worst thing that a person can do is to either have no doubt that a belief is true, to never fear and therefor never be tested, or to be absolutely certain that a belief is false, to resign and never face the possibility. 

The middle ground is what I've been calling faith: facing directly the culmination of all of your fears and offering yourself to them wholly.  Accepting both that there could be nothing or everything, and that it is your "job" as a living being to seek the truth.
And yeah, enjoying the squirrels.


In othr news, where do all these junky MMO's come from?  Do people actually pay, and get paid, to make them?  I'm talking about the sort that get linked to in every sidebar ever made.  It's crazy!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 12:21:14 am by ndchristie »
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Offline Rox

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #374 on: August 11, 2008, 12:52:05 am
I've often found that a lot of religious folk seem to think that atheism seems like a sad, empty way to live, but I really disagree with that. I always thought that the idea that this sort of universe could arise by chance is even more elegant than a belief system that requires some sort of plan behind it all. It's beautiful, really.

I've reacted to that, too. The idea that atheism seems depressing and lonely. And empty. You know what you can do when something feels empty? You fill it up with something. I'd recommend something that doesn't unearth you quite as much as religion wants to do. There's plenty of other things to do that! Like art and music and video games!

In that sense... Religion, to me, seems a lot like a really big, narcissistic hobby that wants to take over all other hobbies. I recall reading a pamhlet handed to me by some Jehova dude a while ago. Upon reading it I noticed halfway through a little article on music that it was trying to make me look upon music as a miracle created by God. Because music is so beautiful and magical and touching, it has to be divine.

... I wonder, could I apply that logic to video games, too?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #375 on: August 11, 2008, 01:38:34 am
... I wonder, could I apply that logic to video games, too?

Not really, imo, in that most videogames present a rather unhealthy way to spend time and have the player completely absorbed in attaining some nonexistant (or inconsequential) goal.  Music, on the other hand, is often a social, human force.  Although there's certainly plenty of music that involves wasting time and isolating yourself, i don't think that's the sort of thing they were talking about.  Also, although some games do encourage social interaction, its mostly a perverted form, in the sense of mmos, or an unnecessary form, in the case of party games.

I used to play a lot of videogames, from RPGs to RTS to MMO to FPS and i consider that - essentially - a waste of my life.  It gave me a place to hide but little else.  Again, not to say that people don't sit in their room alone and waste their lives trancing out to music, but that's not to be recommended either.
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline sharprm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #376 on: August 11, 2008, 03:00:25 am

Not really, imo, in that most videogamesreligions present a rather unhealthy way to spend time and have the playerfollowers completely absorbed in attaining some nonexistant (or inconsequential) goal. 

QED God didn't make religion.

Not only do they take credit for music, but also anything else 'good'. There was this religious guitarist who had a motorbike accident, did something nasty to his hands. The doctors operated on it but said that he may never be able to play again. But he did recover, and was playing religious songs at present. It was GOD who healed his hands. Forget about the doctors. Forget that maybe doctors don't emphasise the possibility of recovery if there is low probability. GOD gets full credit.

Anything bad, put that down to GOD's anger at the gays and atheists -- or maybe it was Satan -- or maybe bad things are just GOD testing you -- there seems to be different opinions as to why bad things happen.
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #377 on: August 11, 2008, 03:43:53 am
I do relate somewhat, with the idea that atheism is empty. Mostly because when I have asked basic philosophical questions to people who declare they are "atheists" they just dont care. Because.....simply that is something that is not engaged in everyday life, and it doesnt deserve any thought, the purpose of being is irrelevant because hey...I dont have time for that, I got to get my paycheck.

Most religious people, dont care either. They believe they already have the answers. Why? because the religous leader said this and that, and it's very clear in passage number xxxx and xxxx.

So what I really have a pickle with, is not really either of the perspectives.But with the fact that they both have in common, that the very purpose of things, doesnt deserve any thought or investigation.

I hate atheist vs religious arguments because of this too. Often it becomes a contest of which absolute truth is better, and then of course nobody really wants to concede any credit to the opposing side...and it deteriorates into berating the opposing side trough increasingly ignorant tactics.

What I REALLY REALLY care about though, is that it isnt just a philosophy, that isnt a I "THINK" this works that way. I believe that everyone should take it very seriously and seek any means necesary, to have a truly spiritual experiences. There is more than one path for this, but people sort of put it in the back burner because it either isnt actually real, or they already know the answer.

 I believe it is CRUCIAL that what they believe it isnt something they THINK it's out there, but that they know whitout doubt from experience that it IS there. I feel like you havent really lived if you never have this.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 03:53:56 am by Conceit »

Offline The B.O.B.

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #378 on: August 11, 2008, 03:55:33 am
   The whole Christian rock, and televangelist that's out there is what really grinds my teeth about how people tend to screw religion. I see these dumb things on television, and ads for Christian rock, the gospel, with crowds of people holding their hands out in the air, whilst sweating, with robotic smiles. It's as if they use money to attain power for the "better of their religion." It's for charities and helping our fellow Christians in need. But then you hear in the end, that the people running these things end up in some illegal activity and going to jail. It's nerve wrecking for me when I see this, and feel like a jerk when I say it but, to me, they look weak.

   Maybe this is from a hermit's point of view, as I'm not much the socialite anymore, but I feel people who "pray to God for help" make themselves weaker by believing a force they'll probably never understand and NEVER meet. Honestly, if I were God and I were seeing how many people and creatures were purposely making others suffer, I too wouldn't give a rat's ass about who dies, who lives, and who is rich or poor. I just winded you up. It was your choices that decided where your little feet would take you the day you died, not mine. You screwed yourselves over, stop looking to me to fix it. FIX IT YOUR DAMN SELVES.

   The description of God is a funny one as well, as many cultures "know" how he/she/it looks like: come the f*** on, now. We've seen the master of life, and omg, he resembles us! Or, he or she looks like a creature we've seen in the wild! Or it kinda' looks human, but with animal heads, with human emotions! Or alien's named Xenu(lol). For all we know, God is a giant molecular cloud that moves around outer space, universes and dimensions, passing other gases causing explosions and elements to fuse into one giant core, creating planets and whatnot. Maybe this "God" cloud just came to be after years of black empty space, rocks and gases finally mixed, and over the billions of years it began slowly to form some strange, albeit simple, thought patterns of structure, and began building planets, with orbit, and germs that evolved into species and animals who THINK they understand what created them and know how they got here: But we don't, and never will. This knowledge isn't attainable, as cynical as it may sound, and our willingness to keep striving for more answers only leads to more questions. Obviously the previous description is silly thinking, as God may not exist, or may be some pig-snake creature somewhere. Point is, I don't know. No body knows. So it'd be nice if we stopped acting like we knew and just lived our lives with one another.

   Not to mention the story of Jesus and having it retold over and over, and making us ashamed of what happened to him. And we're supposedly supposed to be a different and more elegant people now after he died for our sins. "He died for our sins!" Seriously, if you think about it, would your thought patterns really differ from the Romans and Jewish in the era of Jesus? Long haired bearded guy, with followers claims he is the son of God. And his word is right. Overhearing a response to these teachings in the background " I would've believed Jesus in his day, and followed him." Come on now. Centuries have passed, and we STILL don't know how to take these accusations. For example, we see cults where bearded men walk around with followers saying they are the messiah embodied, and their word is right: general public hears it, and cries "What a f***ing idiot." Guy supposedly performs miracles, but public calls him a magician at best. What if Jesus really did have divine powers and he walked the streets of New York, trying to preach the truth to the lucky citizens in attendance. Nothing would change, we would still call him a crazy hippie, abomination against God, and other unique names. Though we probably won't go so far as to kill him, there wouldn't be much difference from then on till today. So ask yourselves, " Have we ever spiritually evolved? " Just find it sad that we have evolved on so many aspects, EXCEPT spirituality and religion: we've been stuck at the same spot we've started out since it began. This has got to tell you something about religion and it's aspects.

   Thing about religion is, it's a good way for one to live in social, civilized life with others. Taking it literally word for word is non-sense in my opinion; but I'm ok with people living their lives this way, as long as it doesn't involve "recruiting" others to join them. THAT is effin' annoying.

...man, I sound evil when reading these paragraphs. I think Pawige was on a religious trek when he left. I'd really be interested on hearing his beliefs, as most the posts here, seem to be on the other side of the fence.
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Offline Conzeit

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #379 on: August 11, 2008, 04:07:30 am
Bob...dont use "christianity" and "religion" as the same concept. it's bad enough that "religion" and "spirituality" are considered the same!
Dont give up on concepts like god and such just because people use it to manipulate eachother, look up different religions and if the concepts they go by ring true to you, try whatever form of "prayer" "meditation" or "ritual" they have, and see if it makes an effect on you, keep what has a good effect and discard what doesnt.

I personally dont mind whatever face any single person may give the god...as long as they did it themselves. We're probably never going to come up with a completely accurate depiction of something as...generalizing....as god,  but when people give it a face it's a way of expressing their own quirks in the form of archetypes, and that's swell as far as I'm concerned.

The way I tend to think of prophets like Jesus and Buddha and such, is as guys who were really spiritual and got it quite right. Who's words upon their death got adapted and marketed for whatever social needs there were at the time, and by now are so diluted they probably have lost their meaning. So you can pick up stuff from them, and test it....but if it doesnt work there's no need to hold on to it.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 04:20:12 am by Conceit »