Trouble with Noses

[ndchristie]

Adarias: more nosetril studies.

my instantaneous reaction was "well, i know it's far from perfect, but it's not that strange for a nose, huh?"

but then i went over to my mirror, and compared my nose to my drawing's....
...and my second reaction was "wow, this is not a nose! damn..."

...which got me to thinking, and i realized that engrained in my mind I had(have) a completely false idea of what a nose is (a downpointing arrow rather than a nose), and it's going to be damned hard to correct that...

...thinking some more, i realized that entirely unresolved issues like this that were prefectly acceptable in high school are going to be crippling in college this september...

...so i began with a basic study on a piece of spare card and a quick drawing form observation about the general sizes and relationships of things, attempting to formulate more accurate shortcuts for use away from references, and plan to keep these up along with other structural studies until i can do a decent job away from my mirror.

     

some of the lines: the region of the nose is 2 near equal parts, one extending from the center of the eyes to the middle of the nose being of bone, and the other extending form that point to the bottom of the nose, being soft.  green - all lines of the face in profile appear, if continued, to lead to directly in front of the nose.  yellow - the brow and the chin are above and below each other almost directly, and a line from the center of the mouth to the center of the eye should define the backwrads reach of the nostril.

then i went back and did what i should have done first, try to adjust the most recent problem piece (apologize about the bad image, i used a friend's phone:
became

there's some issues still, the darkest that was there before wouldn't completely erase, but i think that this does make it to the "better than it was before" zone?

I have reached the conclusion that the nose essentially is a regular pyramid (the bone part) below which are suspended a round bulb of the nose and two egg-shaped nostrils.  between them all is a fit off what i suppose is fat or something that adds further volume (this in particular i had never really known)

does anyone see anything wrong with any of this?  I really would like to kick this terrible nose habit if i can.  Also, does anyone know any good refernces?

[Helm]

never before has a man done so much with so little critique. You'll go far.

I don't know enough about noses myself. What you unearthed in a day is pretty much all I've learned slowly up to now. I just know if it looks good or not to me. I should do more studies too.

[Conzeit]

wow. haha...you're the kind of critique-ee I hope to have one day, ask me for advice on anything any day 

I probably aint amazing about nostrils either, but I think...you're trying a bit hard to UNDERSTAND the thing...rather than feel trough it, remember it is a flap...think of how it would grow, play with your nostril :p feel that roundness at the top and how it constricts at the botton...

hell I would probably try grabbing some clay and doing some nostrils to see if I can make them by doing an almost rectangular nose, and  then with a little pin or pencil open them up....as if you were picking the nose :p I mean that...seriously, switching mediums like that is amazing to understand something.

I think you probably KNOW much more about it by now...but your drawings seem a bit...cerebral to get it to me :p

[huZba]

I should draw more noses too... far too many times i've takent he liberty of omitting a lot of detail to make a nose look reasonable. When i get home, i'll do some proper noses and see what happens. How about having a "nose-workshop" right here?

[Dusty]

Hmm, I'm not sure as I've never studied noses or such. But the nostrils still seem way too visible, giving the nose almost a pig feel. Since the nostrils are most of the time under the nose, they're not really always able to be seen unless you look from below the face. Also, the tip of the nose doesn't seem all that defined, and being the most protruding part of the face, I think it needs to be shown as such.

[LoTekK]

One thing to pay attention to is that noses differ wildly among our species. One only need to do a quick search on Google Image to see that clearly. Dusty, your comment about nostrils would be fair game if noses were homogenous, or if we're talking about "ideal" features, so to speak, but I've met plenty of people whose nostrils were quite flared, or turned up at the sides, etc.

Adarias, one thing I've found very helpful, and this is going to sound like commonsensical advice, is to just hit google image, grab a bunch of random images of noses or faces, and focus only on the nose (you may like to do the same with the other features). Just nail the shape of the nose, the forms and volumes.

i realized that engrained in my mind I had(have) a completely false idea of what a nose is (a downpointing arrow rather than a nose)

Here's the thing: noses can be downward-pointing arrows. The thing you want to be taking away from this is not that a downward-pointing arrow is not a nose, but that not all noses are downward pointing arrows. Again the key is that noses differ wildly amongst our species (with certain trends common amongst different ethnicities). There is no one generic nose, so to speak, there isn't even a sole "perfect" nose. Hooked, pointed, broken, upturned, button, etc. Plenty of variations are what make our art interesting.

bone

Cartilage, my dear boy. Cartilage.

edit: bear in mind that imageshack doesn't like me, so I was having trouble viewing your update. Got it now.
New nose looks a bit better, but you appear to have lost some volume at the base of the nose, and it's thus looking a bit squished (tip of nose to face). Even the flattest of noses would have a tad more space than what your forms are suggesting currently. I don't know if you're working from reference (real person?) or what sort of look you're going for, but a more homogenous look would probably see a slightly more prominent slope of the nose. Currently it feels very vertical.

[Dusty]

Yes, quite a few people do have flared nostrils. But I don't really think it fits with the rest of the facial features in his drawing. Also, between the nostrils being flared up like that, and the lack of depth on the nose, it looks very flat, as though someone has smushed her nose in. I stick with my original comment, yes, many people have flared nose's, but for some reason it just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the face on this one.

[LoTekK]

Nah, I agree with you, Dusty, I think I was just being argumentative to make a point for the sake of making a point. :p

[Ryumaru]

i was reading some comments of an artist over at conceptart.org. his advice for such things is really just to draw them from life every chance you get. doing so you dont have to understand any mathmatical measurements and proportions everything will just come naturally.
of course im probably the least experienced artist here and that might be complete bullshit, but maybe give it a try?

[LoTekK]

i was reading some comments of an artist over at conceptart.org. his advice for such things is really just to draw them from life every chance you get. doing so you dont have to understand any mathmatical measurements and proportions everything will just come naturally.
of course im probably the least experienced artist here and that might be complete bullshit, but maybe give it a try?

No, that's good advice in general. Photos are a convenient way of getting reference, but life drawing will always trump photos. Always.