Official Off-Topic Thread

[huZba]

It's difficult to forget your own experiences that have enriched your life so you can connect with 10 year olds that have never kissed a girl just so you can see how the final fantasy stock storyline is evocative and meaninful to them.

I don't mean you should engage in regressive activity. I don't need to connect with 10 year olds to enjoy the same things they do. I don't want or need you to do anything you dislike of course, it's up to you, just suggested something i find enjoyable and i enjoy numerous things. Do refrain from defining people by their likes and dislikes though. Someone is possessive obsessive, 10 year old and bad with girls for liking FF7? That's a childish way of thinking imo.

I think more people should be more honest about what they think would make good gaming for them and design that instead of pandering to the tried-and-true lowest common denominator that is 10 year olds with a playstation.

True, it just happens to be that FF part of my good gaming. There's a great many things to take home from the series. If something i like also broadens the audience, my my that's a good vessel to bring something new to the table. Use a piece of a common denominator to deliver something i fancy but don't find in these new games.

Other people need to take the responsibility and create art that is meaninful to them and not just made according to a winning formula. This creates great-seller games that are formulaic, and is hurting the quality of games. Every final fantasy game that goes out and sells well is delaying the progress of this art form by 3 years or something. These games survive because we're uncritical about videogames

Parts of the winning formula are certainly meaningful to me.

Want progress, better quality? Throw a stick in the gears not by playing the games you hate and bitching to the fans about how shit their favorite thing is, but rather take what you know and create something better. If others are doing bad on purpose it shouldn't be too hard. I'm not going for the you do better argument, but rather that it is possible for you to at least try. I know plenty of people and gaming companies that do their own thing and easily stay alive.
Want better entertainment? Engage in better entertainment rather than checking out what 10 year olds play and go on a rampage to make the 10 year olds game better for you. "Holy HELL I HATE PUDDING, What the hell are they thinking of when making pudding, they should make Tryffels with chocolate sauce on top, christ! all you pudding lovers are unintelligent"

There are insane amounts of tryffels out there, go and play them.

Don't feel like it? Stop playing games and do something more fun like take a bicycle ride around a lake and reflect on simple things that make your day better.. I'm perplexed that you play so many games just to hate them to bits fully knowing you'll end up hating them. But hey, if that rocks your boat, have fun.

The only way I can understand that a person such as you says they can enjoy a FF game (as you're neither 10 nor devoid of experience, I hope) is that you've created a tolerance for them over the years, and are able to switch your critical capacity off while playing.

Just settle with not understanding me.
Sometimes simple themes and worlds can be the best fun to be had. Stuff like Bleach,Naruto and One piece, all inspired by DBZ.
Some just don't GET it, simple as that and there's nothing wrong with it.

Some enjoy a bottle of guinnes and grilled sausage while watching golf, which doesn't sound like a deep and engaging activity, yet it has the potential to be just that.

@Takam
DBZ can create the most amazing adrenaline rush if you can find the hook. It's the simplest of stories on one of our basic needs, which is to become greater, stronger and ascend to the next level. The show has ridicilous stretching, no real story and shaky animation, but it doesn't stop it from being awesome for me. You shouldn't feel like an idiot about it either... sounds like social pressure is getting the better of you. When working out to physically train for military service, i used to watch DBZ music videos or movies for kicks, and the kicks were fantastic. Eventually i got a near perfect score from a strength test only officers and a few beefcakes above me. Oh good times... i'm as strong as a macaroni now though 

@Sonic Reaper
Yess, xenosaga, awesome, though suffers from being broken as a game, yet a game is the best way to convey that particular story. EP3 was the most intact piece, yet it's hard to enjoy if you didn't play the two previous games. Kind of suicidal way of putting together the saga, but they did take it to an ending of some kind. Every string was pulled to keep it alive, but eventually it wasn't enough, but they did try their best without a doubt.

[Helm]

I don't mean you should engage in regressive activity. I don't need to connect with 10 year olds to enjoy the same things they do. I don't want or need you to do anything you dislike of course, it's up to you, just suggested something i find enjoyable and i enjoy numerous things. Do refrain from defining people by their likes and dislikes though. Someone is possessive obsessive, 10 year old and bad with girls for liking FF7? That's a childish way of thinking imo.

There are many reasons for liking something, but we should look at the social trends and not the exceptions first when we're talking about game design. I do say that most people that find a ff storyline engaging do so because they simply have not experienced something better yet. This is an effect that is carefully calculated and encouraged by big-time game designers. Don't make a game too good, we'll spoil our players!

The graphics race is on, because it sells video cards and such, but we've been able to have a different race, one for good storytelling and good gameplay for the longest time, and the big companies are not in that race. Because that race is not based on technology people buy, but standard skills and concepts that have existed for many years. It takes TALENT and UNDERSTANDING to make a good game. Those aren't in endless supply, and they cannot be upgraded two years from now by buying a new talent card.

Just because you enjoy something doesn't mean it's not generally hurtful to gaming and shouldn't be seen and critiqued openly as such. Final Fantasy games hurt gaming.

Parts of the winning formula are certainly meaningful to me.

For me too.

Want progress, better quality? Throw a stick in the gears not by playing the games you hate

I don't actually play a game once I've played it to the point where I know I hate it. I drop games like babies all the time. I have no time to lose. But I do play, try to understand them and keep the relevant concepts in my head because game design is probably more interesting than game playing nowdays for me.

and bitching to the fans about how shit their favorite thing is, but rather take what you know and create something better.

'Bitching' to people about wrong things is a social obligation.

If others are doing bad on purpose it shouldn't be too hard. I'm not going for the you do better argument, but rather that it is possible for you to at least try. I know plenty of people and gaming companies that do their own thing and easily stay alive.

It is extremely easy to make a game with a better story than Final Fantasy #whatever. It is not however, as easy to have better graphics than it, or music, or presentation. Beause that's where they throw their money and that's what they're trained their audience to go for. Don't you see a self-fulfilling prophecy going on somewhere in there? In the end, who is to blame?

This industry is sick. Good games happen because people go against the grain in a huge way to make them happen, don't you forget it.

Want better entertainment? Engage in better entertainment rather than checking out what 10 year olds play and go on a rampage to make the 10 year olds game better for you.

I am not trying to make a for 10 year olds game better. You are misunderstanding my perspective of the situation. 10 year olds playing final fantasy is fine (well, not 'fine', but it's a different discussion) but when 30 year olds are so strongly conditioned to shit gaming that they play final fantasy games when they're 30 then we have a cause-and-effect chain here. WHERE ARE THE GAMES FOR 30 YEAR OLDS? They're not making them. If they can keep the player's critical capacity to 10-year-old-level by simply not providing any alterantives forever, they will. Gaming isn't an 'art', it's a product!

[sonic_reaper]

The last part of your post is whack quoted randomness    I'm guessing that was unintentional.

Like I've said before I've stopped playing games for storylines so very long ago.  After a certain point/age I think many people (if they've explored the world beyond shoddy and poor videogame storytelling) start to write their own storylines, either on paper, or in their head, that far exceeds anything they've recently experienced in videogaming.  At least ideas and concepts will live on.  Games are packed full of interesting themes, even if the writer of said game was unaware of them or they just happened to come about as consequence.

[Dusty]

Last game that had me pretty interested in the story was Shadow of the Colossus. FF games and such, while I try to keep track of the story(you have to, to know what to do), I generally skip through most of the chit-chat, and at the end of the day, don't really care. SoC made it where they didn't force it down your throat, yet they gave you enough to work with, and enough to keep you interested in the end.

[.TakaM]

Pretty much, when I want a story, I'll read a book.

Movies, I've grown to hate movies that seem to set telling a story as their priority, and love the hell out of movies that focus on the characters and atmosphere.
Same for games, I don't give a damn about the story, I want to feel like I'm experiencing whatever story there is through the gameplay and atmosphere.

of course, I still enjoy a good story, but it's not the reason I'll watch a movie or play a game

[Darien]

I'm sure they were bull-crap, though. And isn't it mind blowing, that humans can only make sounds associated with the alphabet? The first time I realized this, I felt so...limited.

I'd say it's the other way around: humans only create alphabets for the sounds they use.

Pretty much, when I want a story, I'll read a book.

I never understood this segregation.  When I read a book, I want strong story, characters, and atmosphere.  When I watch a movie, I want  strong story, characters, and atmosphere.  When I play a game, I want strong story, characters, atmosphere AND gameplay.

I never separate characters from story, either, it seems to me most good stories are character driven.

Taka, can you give me some examples of movies that focus on characters rather than story, and vice versa?  I'm not sure what types of movies you mean.

[.TakaM]

hehe, as I was typing that, I knew I was coming off a bit rash, to be completely honest, my tastes aren't that black and white.
But for the different mediums, I just think they should have different priorities.

I play games for gameplay, watch movies for atmosphere, and read books for stories.
I don't mean to come off that I don't appreciate a good story in a movie etc, I certainly do appreciate it, but I just prefer a movie that engrosses me through the atmosphere.

I would probably say Dazed and Confused is my favourite example of the atmosphere, minimal insignificant story, just character interaction and atmosphere

[Darien]

I agree with you about how different mediums should have different priorities, particularly in the ways they tell a story.  Plays, for instance, tell stories primarily through dialogue, while movies tell stories primarily through visuals.  I don't think video games ever latched on to their own way of storytelling, it's been pretty much inserting a movie in between gameplay segments so far, I think.  It'd be great if someone created a game  that told a story primarily through gameplay, that might be something that actually would propel video games into a more serious medium.
 

I'm not sure if I consider Dazed and Confused as a non story movie or just one with several smaller stories, though I see what you mean.  Though to be honest I'd have to see it again.  Lost in Translation, if I'm remembering correctly, isn't really a story movie either.  In either case they still have threads of stories, even if the emphasis isn't on them, and they are stronger threads than what we usually see in video games, I think.

[ndchristie]

I think there is a big difference between making what you know will be liked and allowing what you know you won't be called on.  Designing for little kids is NO REASON to forget about the importance of design, and falling back on the fact that you've made better games is no excuse to make a crappy one.

A good game to look at too is kingdom hearts; all of the characters are designed to fit their kiddy, stereotyped roles perfectly and attractively.  The FFTA2 kid is just plain broken.

Square is a company that began with games that contained absolutely no emotional content (early FF and seiken densetsu), moved through a period where emotions and complex topics were occasionally engaged (FFT, FF6, 8, Bahamut Lagoon), and then went back to their gradeschool entertainment (ff9, 10, 12, FFTA, KH).  However, even at their best, most of the characters were 2-dimensional and NEVER showed real emotions aside from confusion and stoicism (which are interesting but they only go so far).

Konami did better with Suikoden II, a game which actually had engaging characters, but even so was by literary standards underdeveloped.  One particular moment, killing Seed and Culgan, touched on the idea of the futility of war etc, but it is NOTHING compared to "I have killed the printer, Gerard Duval."  Part of the problem i think is that videogames have only been around for a very small amount of time and have yet to be accepted as a venue for literature in the way that film, drama, or actual writing is.  What is a videogame that makes it very different from a play with audience participation?  Why are they not designed to the same standards that such productions are? Why do crappy games come out after about a year of production when amazing games could come out after 4 or 5 the way books do?  The market is overly concerned with the "smash hit" and "hyped-up" products that it manages to take all the shamelessness of the television industry and mix it with the exclusiveness of the music industry.  At best, they also have the cinematics of the movie industry and the excitement of sports, but where oh where is all the real art?  (btw i know there are some games that fulfill the art concept exquisitely, im not talking about the number of fantastic games that are produced each year, but the industry as a whole)

I can also understand how many things do not fit into the game concept.  The Cider House Rules would nto be a videogame, nor would citizen cane, but what about, say, shakespeare?  any of his plays could be made into RPG, Rhythm, Adventure, or other things without losing sight of the mastery with which they were written.  Hell, half of the games out there are just mediocre comedies or tragedies, with the occasional epic.

whatever happened to games like parapa the rappa or grim fandango?  why didn't psychonaughts revolutionize the industry?  why do people still obsess over frigging WoW and Official Game of the Movies?

[am_pm]

There are some games that actually give a 100% real effort in having every element of the game be fulfilling, Bioshock, while new, is an example. It makes real references to books like Atlas Shrugged.

I miss Parrapa the Rappa.