AuthorTopic: Official Off-Topic Thread  (Read 280790 times)

Offline Rawsushi

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #750 on: September 06, 2007, 07:08:55 pm
If it makes you feel better, Helm, I feel that anime is a cancer on the art world.

There's good anime; it exists. I love Ghibli fiilms, but that's because it's quality is so far above and beyond typical anime, it's in a class all it's own. It's almost like comparing an episode of Scooby Doo with, say, Disney's Jungle Book. Oh man... and BAD anime art? I can't think of anything more painful to look at. Don't get me wrong; I watch some anime series. Hell, I have a shelf on my bookshelf dedicated to the stuff. Some of the stories are great, but the art is always laughably bad.

Seriously, what's worse than a bad/generic anime? Anime imitators. (See TOTALLY SPIES for a lesson in ultimate suffering.) If you really want to see the effect anime has had on the art world, visit DeviantArt sometime.
If only the artform wasn't so formulaic, maybe then there'd be less immitating.

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Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #751 on: September 06, 2007, 07:15:04 pm
I am your echo.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #752 on: September 06, 2007, 07:16:43 pm
the big differences are that rue has a very impressive (if slightly TOO by-the-book) level of cohesion and theme at work on his appearence.  Ramza from the original FFT went throguh a number of equally well designed costumes; in fact, the entire cast of that game is designed at a level that surpasses most other games.

not all good characters are from a different time either.  marche, despite his shockingly rendered behind, actually has a strong level of cohesion and adheres to design fundamentals.  other characters in the new game do well, though a lot of them appear to have been cut in half (cohesion strong within lower body and upper body, but each region seemingly takes from separate characters).  FFXII showcased a strange combination of exquisitely designed if emotionless characters (balthier, basch, possibly penelo although her outfit does not fit the rest of the game, and the judges, and even fran, though her design was less pleasing it was well constructed) and terribly designed characters (vaan, ashe, anyone of royalty, etc).

in a rush but there's always more to list




americanime is commercial garbage at it's worst, producing cheap knockoffs of cheap knockoffs and overmarketing it.  what ever happened to the good shows?
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #753 on: September 06, 2007, 07:21:51 pm
overdesign destroys suspension of disbelief for me. If I'm playing a game with an emphasis on gameworld then the characters should fit in the gameworld. Not models that do everything in their super-stylised poses all the time. Young people think if it looks 'cool' that's all it has to do, but I expect more from characterization than 'coo'ness. Basically what the Ren and Stimpy dude said in his blog post about anime. There's more to characters than appearing cool. They must be human. These... empty soulless things in Final Fantasy games are certainly not packed with human emotion. The most repeated main character line in these types of jrpgs is '...' for christ's sake!

Do the marketing teams think that young people can only connect with emotional cripples? If so, that's an awesome self-fulfilling prophecy.

Insert 'OMG U SUCK, MAN, FF7 WAS THE MOUST TOUGNGH LOEV STORY EVER I KRIED WHEN AERIS DIED!1' replies here

Offline huZba

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #754 on: September 06, 2007, 07:52:55 pm
When i read the ren and stimpy guys stuff, yeah i agreed, but i also remembered how i thought the old cartoons were totally not cool and Swat Kats was the coolest thing ever created. So there, me age uhh 12 (maybe? when was swat kats aired?) disagrees, me now agrees... maybe..  unless i feel like sitting back to take a dose of DBZ, which is awesome unless you're unable to channel it. What i'm trying to say is that superficial cool has it's merits as well, it works if you know you're doing superficial cool. Then there's the type of cool ren and stimpy guy described.

Final Fantasy works for me.Still I didn't play FFTA too far for the reasons described, felt soulless and empty.
Final Fantasy is an awesome series though, helm obviously tries to tune in on the wrong frequency and can't enjoy it, but what gives, it's not for everyone, i don't like every single game in the series either. Just watched the over 2hour final fantasy retrospective on gametrailers.com and it reminded how great it is.

Maybe you could try and study what's a reality for a whole lot of people other than you to understand new things. Tune your brain.

Offline .TakaM

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #755 on: September 06, 2007, 08:16:56 pm
DBZ... I used to watch it religiously, and it must have repeated here 20 times, a few months ago I hunted down everyones favourite episode where goku finally turns super saiyan (I feel like an idiot typing this :D)
but yeah, I couldn't stand watching it, everything was so weird, such little silence between sentences, then they'd show the water crashing up against some rocks for 30 seconds, and they'd always have the camera pan out to ridiculous lengths during seemingly epic conversations..
I really can't remember how I fooled myself into loving the show


I've never really gotten into Final Fantasy games, but from what I have played, all the characters seem rather standard stock, but they are presented in such flamboyantly unique designs that you're expected to look past it..
and when I say unique, I mean they're just wearing so much bizarre crap that it's mathematically implausible that another character would ever look the same.
That character I posted on the last page, if you took away everything except the overalls and regular sword, and maybe gave him a more unique face (if I bothered, I bet I could find that face on a thousand other characters) - he wouldn't look half bad.

I think it goes without saying, but the best character designs are simple in that, even if you draw them badly, people can still recognize them..
draw that FFTA2 character badly and it will probably look like a christmas tree
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Offline Blick

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #756 on: September 06, 2007, 08:38:54 pm
September 19, I begin my drive to Burien, Washington. I will arrive approximately 10 days later. Then I will be forced to figure out what I want to do with my life, for the time being at least.

Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #757 on: September 06, 2007, 09:04:03 pm
Quote
Maybe you could try and study what's a reality for a whole lot of people other than you to understand new things. Tune your brain.

It's difficult to forget your own experiences that have enriched your life so you can connect with 10 year olds that have never kissed a girl just so you can see how the final fantasy stock storyline is evocative and meaninful to them. In fact besides it being an excercise in frustration, I would also be learning nothing more than efficient methods to sell things to kids, which certainly isn't my job as I am not a marketer. I think more people should be more honest about what they think would make good gaming for them and design that instead of pandering to the tried-and-true lowest common denominator that is 10 year olds with a playstation.

I don't need to think like anybody else. Other people need to take the responsibility and create art that is meaninful to them and not just made according to a winning formula. This creates great-seller games that are formulaic, and is hurting the quality of games. Every final fantasy game that goes out and sells well is delaying the progress of this art form by 3 years or something. These games survive because we're uncritical about videogames. The only way I can understand that a person such as you says they can enjoy a FF game (as you're neither 10 nor devoid of experience, I hope) is that you've created a tolerance for them over the years, and are able to switch your critical capacity off while playing. Why is this a good thing to learn to do about videogames?!

I know, people gotta make a living, but that's not what we're discussing, here, is it? We're discussing intention and you are telling me I should intentionally try to think like people with fewer experiences or lesser intelligence, to feel empathy towards their empty lives and the vacant videogames they buy. Why? I know they exist, I know that they have their tastes, I have mine.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 09:06:47 pm by Helm »

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #758 on: September 06, 2007, 09:54:49 pm
Thank you for explaining yourself Adarias.  THAT's the kind of criticism I appreciate.  One that actually goes into detail why a design does or does not "work".  I can't say I agree with all it, as the artist at least tried in some areas to tie it all together (such as the flared sleeves and pant-legs), and I don't see the color as being such a big issue as you make it.  Mostly in this case because the FFTA games take place in a children's storybook.  What do you see when you look at children's story books?  Well the first thing that always comes to my mind is bright and cheerful colors, though, basic colors.  And that's almost entirely what the main character of FFTA2 is composed of.  If you look at it that way, I would be inclined to believe either the artist knew exactly what they were going for, or the employer had a specific image in mind, from which they could not largely stray.  I'm also further inclined to believe that is true because said same artist has and is capable of much more aesthetically pleasing and organized designs, but perhaps in this case, that's not what they were aiming for.  I think students, specically, who concentrate too much on the technical aspect of their craft get caught in a trap of overanalyzing and criticizing everything to death, without looking at the larger picture, and ignoring the nitty-gritty details for just once.  In the end, it will make you a better artist, but not all art is created equal, and not all art is created for the same use.  If you continually break down any piece of art, all will, at least at a very specific fundamental level, have some sort of error or design flaw.

Anyway, I'm not personally a fan of animé, but I more so have personal favorite artists.  Japanese-wise, I dig Ayami Kojima, and I know he gets a lot of flack, but I really admire Yoshitaka Amano for more or less always doing his own thing.  That's an artist that you KNOW very liberally designs whatever description of a character is given to him.  I think it was this peculiar characteristic that ultimately had him booted from being the main Final Fantasy artist.  Square needed someone that would more easily design characters that fit their bill, and characters that could be easily consumable by the masses, characters that we've already described as always looking cool, no matter what was going on.  In the process, there was a loss of a unique art style once brought to Final Fantasy, and what I like to think was a loss of softness, beauty and imagination.

And wow Helm I totally agree with you.  And I was in that same position you just described.  Around 10 or so and my main dish was Final Fantasy VI.  I thought it was amazing cause it dealt with issues, that at the time, I had no idea about.  Love, war, family, tolerance, and so on.  As I've gotten older, maybe just grumpier, but I find I am extremely critical of games.  Whenever I encounter something in a game that I find odd or displeases me, I always wonder, why is this so?  What could be done to make this better?  Why was nothing done in the first place?  And I guess the obvious answer is because the general gaming population doesn't care, or doesn't acknowledge those things I find problematic to be as such.  I don't even play games for storylines anymore, since these things have not evolved in the least bit.  At this age, I could write a better story, about things that are either central issues to me, or ideas that have yet to be touched upon by shallow videogame storylines.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 09:59:16 pm by sonic_reaper »

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread

Reply #759 on: September 06, 2007, 10:00:56 pm
One should still distinguish between the capacity to enjoy a game not necessarily being proportional to the game's perfection in every regard.  I've enjoyed a few Final Fantasy games recently (XII and III specifically) in spite of their many faults, because there were things they did well.  They certainly didn't do everything well, and they know it (at least XII's team does), but they're human.  They're still better games than 90% of what was released last year (not that that is excusing them, but some perspective helps I think).

I mean, critique is always important, and never more so than in the public marketplace, where single game releases can change the entire industry overnight (GTA III for example).  However, if you can only enjoy perfect games, you're missing out on a lot of great stuff!  Every game makes mistakes, but I believe there is almost always some little thing to be learned from most any game, and especially from games that are up in that top 10% of the year's releases brackets.  Heck there are even positive aspects to frat-boy DM-fests like Halo (not many, but they're there).

I guess what I'm trying to say is it is fine to find a game's every fault, but I usually learn more by trying to find what games do right.  In that regard, I think its a mistake to simply discard Final Fantasy as a franchise.  Does a lot of the internet give virtual blow jobs to everything FF on a regular basis?  Yes.  Does this automatically deprive the series of any value?  I don't think so, but maybe there is a piece of the puzzle that I am missing.  Does the internet art community need a strong anti-anime voice?  Probably.  But I would think that a strong pro-good-art voice would be enough?  I mean wouldn't that preclude bad anime by default?  I dunno...back to procrastinating!