pixeljoint weekly challenge: fighter sprite.[Finished]

[Ryumaru]

very wip.
for pixeljoint.
comments and critique appreciated muchly.

[AdamAtomic]

1 - Major, perpetual, constant anatomy problems.  And they're the kind that even I know how to fix - this is bad!  Here is a little flip-flop anim to show you some changes that I think would help the character a lot:



The only thing I was too lazy to fix is the angle of the head - try doing that pose with your head facing that way in real life.  It f*ckin HURTS!  I know he's tough (you can tell by the anime hair) but nobody's that tough.  Let him relax a bit!  Maybe chin in the air?  Nice start, but I think you will find its faster to fix the proportions and major shapes FIRST before getting too detailed.
EDIT - his right elbow is still too low even in my version, but I'm too lazy to fix my own edit even

[Ryumaru]

wow, that edit basically took away any uniqueness of his physique. its probably much more anatomically correct, but if i have to change that much for corrective sake i might give up on this sprite. the only thing i can see me being able to alter is the waist area. the proportions of your edit are not what i intended at all. his long limbs are gone, his slenderness is deystroyed.
thankyou very much for the edit though, but i think its just way too far from what i intended.

[AdamAtomic]

I'm gonna be blunt: what you call "uniqueness" I call "the same messed up proportions that are used in 3/4 of anime and the fanboy deviantartists because they can't bother to learn the difference between good stylized physique and bad stylized physique".  Drawing dudes wrong is not unique!

EDIT - I do concede that my guy is thicker in general than yours, I did not mean to stray that far from your original intentions.  But the overarching issue is that the things you've chosen to stylize are done so in an isolated fashion - you gave him long arms, but short legs.  A long upper torso, and a tiny lower torso.  No neck, tiny head, and shoulders that are almost disconnected from his ribcage entirely.  One of the keys to using stylized anatomy in your characters is to distort them in a logical fashion that maintains some of the key proportions that are part of being human!  If he's got long skinny arms, then he'll probably have long skinny legs, and big hands (your guy has pretty small hands and skinny but VERY short legs), and a longish neck as well.  Temper your creativity with a little analysis and you'll be able to make some very big strides forward (despite those short legs!).

[Ryumaru]

i made a little overpaint of what i made to be under the clothes, and the things that you wrote actually help me more. i wanted long skinny legs, but found that i did make them short, the clothes made it hard to tell.

this probably sounds like bull shit but this is totally not the generic anime bull shit you see, i dont even want to get mixed in with that stuff. it seems i just took a different path that lead to a similair point.
thankyou for the help : D

[ndchristie]

my friend sarah's boyfriend is very similar to your goal here i think, ill see what pictures i can drum up for references.  i can tell you right off, his chest is too high, his shoulders are too high, the region around his shoulders is too bulky, his neck doesn't exist, and his back is broken.  I'm afraid this may require a complete reworking if you want it to be at all realistic.

adam yours is a good edit but his forearms are too short and he has that unique ability of anime characters to pull his head back so far that he pushes his chin inside his own throat.  i make the same mistake with my characters and im never quite sure how they manage it without extreme discomfort.

[Helm]

Besides the good critique on this by Adarias and Adam, I have to say that the hand, the left hand (ours), is at a broken position. Besides that, the biggest problem I have with this is the neck+head+lack of face

[Ryumaru]

the newest update a bit better?

[Feron]

his pecs are too high.  I am of similar build and my pecs end half-way down my bicep. not at the base of my shoulder.  Also the legs seem a bit short.

the trouser should flare a bit more on (his) right leg, not follow the curve entirely round.  I agree about fascial definition, nothing big just a few more dark pixels would do.

The bottom "spike" fold on the shirt would also be practically impossible to fold like that, and considering that shirt is tight-fitting, shows nothing of the anatomy below.

[yosh64]

hey

Maybe I can learn some things from this, as I seem to be blind to some of the advise/crits mentioned here. Well most so to me is Adarias comment "and his back is broken". I really can't see a broken back from this? do you mean he litrally looks like he has a broken back? I dunno, maybe it would help if you further explained your advise, because as an outsider who might see things in a simular light as Ryumaru, I find it hard to identify with everything said. But I dunno.

Anyhows, from a pixel and design standpoint, I think it looks quite nice.

I do think the legs are better now, although his crutch is rather small, but I think this might be a style choice. Hmm, regardless of style, the left (his right) arm looks too long, and not in accordence with his other arm. I also think the left (his right) wrist looks odd, and the fingers behind look too bright, making it a bit hard to read. But yea, I think the weight of his body and arms look a bit large compared to his legs and head. The hair looks a little flat to me, and I think the boots are obviously still wip.

But yea, I really like this, and I think it's quite well pixeled ^_^. Overall, I think after you refine the proportions and such, it will actually improve style.
---

I was just thinking... it's like... his legs are long, and skiny, which is fine... but... then his body looks a little too big/wide for them... and then his arm's look a little too big for his body... but I think his head is okay, looks about the right size for something between the size of the legs and body. Hmm, I hope all that made sense. But yea, I know from experience that it can be hard to see your own proportional problems, but when you do you will laugh at how funny it looks. Well the proportions for the thing I done a while back were way worse than yours, and I still failed to initially see them.

edit
Sorry I think I went a bit far with my first comment. I think the only thing that was really not clear to me is about his broken back :\. But yea, I don't mean to go off topic, maybe it's just me, and Ryumaru understands your advise about his broken back.

another edit
, and <- changed shading a tad to my liking, but nm
Well I done a quick edit for ya, although I screwed most of ya pixels up in the process. I just tried to make the proportions more consistent. Obviously this is very unrealistic, but I don't think you were going for realistic. Anyhows, you may want to see what others have to say about my edit, as I'm no expert on such things. Ohh, I really can't understand the logic behind all your shading either, but I guess this is what makes each artist different , hehe.

cyas

[gliding]

Hmm, I also agree with most of the mob regarding the "uniqueness" of this piece, Ryu.
My advice would be for you not to quit on this; try making a real effort to understand these crits. No one says that you can't add style, however, this guy could really use a major tune up anatomically.
Hmmm, other than that, I'm liking the colours- especially on the guy's hair and (his) left arm.

[Helm]

Patented Helm anatomy non-destructive edit TM:



PSD file here http://www.locustleaves.com/fightepsd.psd

[Ryumaru]

yosh64: i didnt get the broken back crit either, ill have to wait for adarias on that one. thank you very much for the edit, your shading style is actually similair to what i wanted to achieve but ive never done anything like it before -_-
ill try and learn from edit well.
gliding: i understand the crits, its just that most of those crits took away from his body structure, although my first attempt wasnt anywhere near correct they took away what i wanted it to be.
helm: thankyou very much aswell for the edit. i really wanted to keep his hand in that position but i cant seem to make it not broken so i might have to go with something like in yours -_-.

thankyou for all the help on this people, ill update soon. pixelation is such a great place for quality critique.

[eck]

maybe you already knew (dont have time to read the whole topic) but i thought the background had to be transparent?

[Ryumaru]

the colors of the background are all of the same brightness value, and there is a cool, warm, and nuetral for that value. it just better helps me create pallettes that would work on a multicolored background, which fighter sprites do.
edit:
forgot to say that it will be made transparent at the end, when im animating and such

[Froli]

This is a great learning experience. I've seen people would give excuses, not listen to the critics but you are taking initiative. You'll sure benefit from this in the future

 

[ndchristie]

yosh64: i didnt get the broken back crit either, ill have to wait for adarias on that one.

Have you ever met a man with a perfectly straight spine?  the way your forms are turned, he has no choice but to live in a world of pain

[Ryumaru]

hah, point taken adarias.
ill still be might not have fixed all the issues yet but heres the image as it stands now:

i probably wont submit it as an entry to the challenge but will continue working on it as a learning piece.
update:

[Helm]

mainly number of colors/color edit. You don't seem to want to apply the anatomical crits as far as the arms go so I didn't edit those. Very many interchangable shades, many near-blacks.

[Ryumaru]

helm: thankyou, but you should of known that if i have anything going for me its pallettes/ color conservation!
we are allowed 32 colors for the image and thats what im going to use. no unification of the pallette for being in the spirit of color swaps in fighter srites.
also, done with the still frame:

after i create the animation for the weekly challenge, i will go back and fix any anatomical errors i can and maybe make a version with a unified pallette.
edit: crap i forgot to finish the hand -_- oh well, in next update.

[Helm]

That scourge upon humanity, 'color swaps', enemy of good pixel art! Do as you wish, but know it makes pixels sad! 

[Delgneith]

I say it looks pretty good so far but a few things I could point out.
- His left leg looks completely snapped, well more so his ankle than anything. Looks as though his foot should point a lot more to our left.
- The way he's holding his "knife" looks a bit light and weak. Also why did you loose the cool semi-original arm wrap idea you had going on?
- I sort of liked how you had the belt shaded on our right in the second last version but you lost that when you added the "studs"?
- Jacket is a little dark for my tastes and I think Helm's version brought the right amount of brightness.
- Maybe his hair could use some highlights? Seeing as hair is usually shiny and has some spectral qualities.

[Ryumaru]

helm: i promise ill make a proper version, for pixel art sake!
delegneith: ill fix all those problems in the version after i submit. dont worry about the arm wrap, because it is part of his knife, its actually a moving set of things that connect to the knife and go into his veins, hence hes not actually holding his knife. it will be included when i animate it.

[Gil]

I don't like Helm's edit at all. The near blacks he talks about look grey-ish on my high saturation LCD screen, so those tones are very valid to me.

Also, palette swapping is art to me. I have struggled for months now trying to develop a consistent paletting library that integrates with the graphics library I want to use...


Ryumaru, the arms might still be a tad too long to look comfortable. A pixel or 3 shorter might already do the trick...

[Helm]

I don't like Helm's edit at all. The near blacks he talks about look grey-ish on my high saturation LCD screen, so those tones are very valid to me.

perhaps you need to calibrate your monitor then.

[eck]

yea, i have to agree with helm on this one.

[Stwelin]

mmm... Helm, i think i must agree with gil. my monitor is calibrated well (enough), and it does seem a little harsh. I think Ryu might have had maybe 1 unnecessary color, the closest one to his darkest, but other than that, they are all very readable if your monitor has a good contrast ratio (i believe mine is something like 800:1). I prefer the more subtle smoothness of Ryu's original attempt.

[Opacus]

Hmm, lots of mixed oppinions here. I myself prefer Helm's edit as it reads better.

[Gil]

As I see it (this might be subjective due to calibration, but still), Helm's edit does look better at 1x, due to the higher contrast, but loses its flair quickly at 2x. Ryu's edit is a little dark, but it does stay a lot smoother in the 2x and 3x zooms. I suggest he keeps the same ammount of colors, but adds the contrast we find in Helm's edit.

I also liked the distinct colour spaces Ryu provided. I see the harmony in using a unified palette, but is it always the solution?

You still need to work on the limbs, I find them to be very rubbery and elongated and generally broken. You can pull off the look, if you really nail the simplified anatomy. It's much easier to just correct the sizes of the limbs though...

[Ryumaru]

ok, changed the pallette a bit, plus some other very small edits.
i think im done with this piece, theres obviously still stuff i could fix but ill just be a defiant little teen like i should be :3

i dont hate it, so thats a good sign. doesnt happen very often.

[Gil]

I love it, if you're through with it, I might just do a last edit to the arms, as I feel you still didn't nail those. I love the belt and everything else though, good job...

[AdamAtomic]

Good progress Ryu.  I still disagree with a lot of the design choices, but there are aspects of the rendering that are very polished, so kudos on that!  I'm fond of the way you've done the hair particularly.  One thing you might want to fix still, and its a little thing, is his index finger there looks friggin HUGE.  Either its actually two fingers, or you need to lose a pixel and do some subpixel work to stop it from being too skinny.  It's just weirdly wide!

[Feron]

this ones going in my "special" folder 

[ndchristie]

omg, ryu doesn't hate something of his own? :O

i like the way this came out.  only...is he supposed to be holding the knife, or is there some sort of magic that keeps it near his hand?  might want to wrap his fingers around it 'fit's supposed to be held

[crab2selout.png]

Incredible progress, Ryu! I'm almost in disbelief as I look at the progress shots. the change is incredible. BTW, anyone ever heard of this, that the length of your foot is equal to the length of your forearm? I tried it out now and it seems pretty accurate for me. Idunno, something I was thinking about while looking at the feet on this.

And I gotta say it, that's hawt(as a drunk, idiot celebrity on her way to jail might put it)

[Helm]

a hand is 3 heads, a leg is four heads.

[Gil]

My edit, as promised. Lots of small edits actually, HIS left leg and foot and both arms changed...

[Helm]

as long as we're talking nitpicks, those pants being so tight on the crotch that they project wrinkles on top of the leg is unlikely, since that part of pants usually is flat on tight pants, as it follows the contours of the body.

[The B.O.B.]

a hand is 3 heads, a leg is four heads.

Wow. I'm guessing your fellow country men's hands are able lift motorcycles, and crush adolescent children, if they're that big!  (I'm guessing you meant "arm"?)

Any hoo, I agree with the above statements. This piece came out wonderful. The only thing I'm not digging, which again is a personal preference, rather than technical critique, is the red blade(if that's what it is) and the red swirls emanating off of it. I've just never been too particular of red effects for some reason, which are sometimes used in capcom games, like Darkstalker(vampire hunter, what have you...)
Either way, I like the design, although his left leg has suffered a stylistic warp, it looks fine as is...

[Ryumaru]

so much positive commentary, im in awe. almost makes me want to take the extra mile and fix all those nitpicks. maybe i will, well see.
thankyou everybody for all the helpful critique, edits, and comments!
i luv u guys.

[Ryumaru]

ok, heres the final version.
edited the crotch so that the area is more flat per helms suggestion( as well as added a pocket)
made the arms even just a tad bit shorter. moved the bicep on his right arm, and took away some mass from the tricep on his left arm.
the pallette should be clean, so anybody that wants a go at a pallette swap feel free! what would he look like with black hair and a red vest? see for yourself.

i think im finished. gotta quit sometime.

[Delgneith]

That looks pretty awesome man. As far as palette swapping goes, your file is not index well. You have more colors in the palette than in your little side palette and they aren't in ramps. I'd suggest cleaning that up if you want swaps

[Ryumaru]

dammit, are you serious? i get so many other colors from swapping in paint. i really need to learn to get the job done with promotion more. -_-

[Feron]

just messing

[Gil]

I looked at it in GraphicsGale and the palette was one big mess. You really need to fin a way to do your palettes correct if you want to have efficient color swaps...

[JWW]

way too many near blacks, i say brighten it up some.

[ndchristie]

everyone that brightens these darker shades makes it look jagged and ugly.  You cannot simply cut out a range of values and expect the old shadows to work, youll have to completely repixel the areas now just to make them look pretty much like they did before.  also, each edit that brightens it just ends up with a ton of values in the mid-gray region, which makes it look even muddier.  i say keep them, because the alternative is not attractive, and if you were to change any ramp to be a significantly brighter color, you will want those shades to help you out.

[Ryumaru]

if yall didnt know, his vest is BLACK, and the lighting isnt very bright.
not to mention, i called it finished
i wouldnt have problems with pallettes if i would start my pieces in promotion instead of paint.

[Gil]

Took me about 10 minutes to clean the palette up in GraphicsGale, so it's not a biggie. Current graphic libraries, such as SDL don't play nice with palettes anyway. You have to force them, and you have to drop alpha blending to make it work.

Anyway, I agree, this is finished, good job...

[uridicy]

Side note: Are there some tutorials on cleaning up pallets/optimizing colors?

I do really like the color choices and the shading myself.

[Helm]

Ideally you should incooporate tight palette control and optimization every step of the way when you're pixelling. Not be messy as hell and then spend 30 minutes at the end trying to make the palette come down to an acceptable number of colors.