AuthorTopic: My first ever animation  (Read 21642 times)

Offline Snippa

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My first ever animation

on: May 08, 2007, 06:29:35 pm
yeah... it's horrible I know, go ahead & rip this bad boy apart.
->->->
 (old)                        (newest)

->->->->->

Head should be moving a bit when he walks you guys think? heh
arms are horrible I know :)
shoulders are good (I THINK)
Legs I'm not sure about
Chest, I'm not sure about... maybe it shouldn't be animated or maybe animated differently?
Not too concerned with the overall look of the sprite outide of the animation, it does need work yes, but I have alot of work ahead of me and I need to make sure I can animate decently. :)

There appears to be a bit of an error in the animation on the right side by the arm, not sure what caused those pixels there.

this was done with 4 frames. idle frame used twice to make it look a bit smoother.
Thanks in advance for the help guys.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 01:53:07 am by Snippa »

Offline Sharlenwar

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #1 on: May 09, 2007, 12:04:46 am
Well, to me the chest could be animated a bit less. If it was a female, then I wouldn't mind the sway of the taa taa's. Possibly could had a sort of head bob into the animation, would make it seem more natural.

Good job so far! Of course, what do I know?  :P

Offline Dusty

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 12:11:49 am
I think the problem is you're looking for shortcuts with this animation by just moving pieces of it around. It hardly ever works like this, especially with people. You're going to have to actually redraw the body parts for the animation to work right.
And to be honest, you should get the sprite itself critiqued and fixed up before moving on to the animation.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 12:30:14 am
I think the problem is you're looking for shortcuts with this animation by just moving pieces of it around. It hardly ever works like this, especially with people. You're going to have to actually redraw the body parts for the animation to work right.
And to be honest, you should get the sprite itself critiqued and fixed up before moving on to the animation.
Not really looking for shortcuts... as I said, it's my first ever animation, so I really have very little idea on how to go about making it look right, I'm just trying different things out at the moment. I'm aware I need to redraw the parts in every frame, thats what I've been doing for the past 6 hours or so.
The sprite itself is fine in my opinion.. yeah it's a bit pillow shaded, but I'm really not concerned with it, most of it will end up being covered up anyways.

Please try to be helpful next time you critique something, and not just be a critic. Thanks.

Offline Gil

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #4 on: May 09, 2007, 01:08:23 am
His comments are very valid. Frankly said, that's not a human, but a blob. And by shifting regions of pixels around you won't make him walk. Try getting at least a little anatomy into everything.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 01:12:11 am
His comments are very valid. Frankly said, that's not a human, but a blob. And by shifting regions of pixels around you won't make him walk. Try getting at least a little anatomy into everything.
Valid? yes, Helpful? no.
This is not a crit of the sprite, but the animation, please try an keep it on topic, thanks.

Offline Terley

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #6 on: May 09, 2007, 01:28:10 am
What did you expect him to say? Dusty pretty much said what I was thinking, and most likely what many more people were too..

For a first animation I think you achieved what you set out to do, you made something move.... They may not be very realistic movements, but then again your sprite doesn't relate to reality too well, there's no getting round that and it's clear your not willing to take critique on the quality of your sprite.. You've got to understand that the graphics and animation go hand in hand, if the image doesn't make sense then it's going to be very hard to animate well, its especially difficult to critique without bringing up improving the sprite somewhat.

It doesn't look like you took much thought into the animation to be honest, even for a first atempt you should have taken a look at what your own body does whilst your walking, look for tutorials, study other sprites Instead of jumping straight into it and posting for critique.

Im not sure what more to say, without doing most the legwork for you, totally redesigning your sprite, and building a full tutorial on how to make a sprite walk..
I've not got anything interesting to type here..

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #7 on: May 09, 2007, 01:38:42 am
its very hard to make a good animation of a poor sprite.  you've got some of the basic ideas down pat, but id suggest animating something more detailed, so that it's easier to achieve a fuller range of visible motion.
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Offline Gil

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #8 on: May 09, 2007, 01:42:34 am


Add some dynamics to it, and make it move like the collossus it is, and you could somewhat salvage it...

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #9 on: May 09, 2007, 01:56:40 am
What did you expect him to say? Dusty pretty much said what I was thinking, and most likely what many more people were too..

For a first animation I think you achieved what you set out to do, you made something move.... They may not be very realistic movements, but then again your sprite doesn't relate to reality too well, there's no getting round that and it's clear your not willing to take critique on the quality of your sprite.. You've got to understand that the graphics and animation go hand in hand, if the image doesn't make sense then it's going to be very hard to animate well, its especially difficult to critique without bringing up improving the sprite somewhat.

It doesn't look like you took much thought into the animation to be honest, even for a first atempt you should have taken a look at what your own body does whilst your walking, look for tutorials, study other sprites Instead of jumping straight into it and posting for critique.

Im not sure what more to say, without doing most the legwork for you, totally redesigning your sprite, and building a full tutorial on how to make a sprite walk..
What I was expecting was some pointers on shading certain ways in each frame, moving the arms a certain way - or making them appear to move a certain way, or something along those lines.
What I wasn't expecting was for people to be complete asses and be unhelpful. I thought one of the rules of these forums was something along the lines of "if you're going to critique someone's artwork, be constructive"... and another rule was to not be an ass?

Quote
Rule 1:

As it was and as it always shall be: Don't be an ass!
Quote
Rule 4: Stay on topic.

Off-topic respite from critiquing is catered for in the same-titled thread on the General forum. If a topic seems to be hampered and derailed consistently by OT discussion, users will be warned, topics split or even locked, depending on the degree of damage done.
Quote
When critiquing, remember:


To highlight both the good and the bad about the piece. Comments without actual points of how to make the piece better are near-useless for the purposes of this forum. Pixelation is not a Gallery Showcase forum. It strives on helping people get better. Even if something seems faultless, look closer. There's always at least minor nitpicks to offer. In contrast, a post full of critique and not a single word on the merits of the piece, while would be very useful to an artist, might also upset him or demotivate him. Therefore please remember to say what you like about a piece as well.
To be articulate. When possible, go into detail explaining the reasoning behind your observation. It's one thing to say 'that arm looks broken, lol' and another to explain how the underlying muscle structure would work and why it gives you the impression it's broken, and finally, which would be probable means of fixing it. Optimally, the latter is what we're going for.

Anyways... I HAVE been working on the sprite to make it look better, which is why I am not concerned with the way it looks, I mean, it is pretty obvious that the animations with the arms is completely horrible.

Terley, you are right that I didn't put too much thought into the animation, but really for me it is very difficult at the moment to even think of making any pixels move around in what may seem like a realistic fashion. I have been looking around for tutorials as well as other similar perspective sprite animations, found one that has helped out quite a bit. (which is another thing I was expecting, being pointed in the right direction to find good examples)

I don't expect anyone to do any edits, because usually I will end up doing them in my own style anyways, though edits are always welcome.

Adarias, your crits and comments are always welcome and very much appreciated.

Gil, that's hilarious. As a whole, not exactly what I was going for... lol But the arm and head movement there is pretty much almost exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

Offline Dusty

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #10 on: May 09, 2007, 02:11:05 am
I gave points on how to improve it. Whether or not you got too offended by them is not something I can change.
I said you needed to redraw the body parts moving, not just move parts of the sprite around. I thought it was pretty clear what I meant, I wasn't intending to go into a full paragraph on it because I'm not that skilled at animating myself, but the point was still clear.

I also stand by what I said about the sprite. You might not want critique on it, but it can make a difference when you go to animate it. I don't know why you got so defensive about what I said, if I wanted to be an ass about it I wouldn't have tried to help at all. I mean, no offense, but I think I gave just as much, or more, points than Adarias, and you thanked him... but alas there's no point in that discussion.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 02:31:10 am
Maybe it was just the way you worded it dusty, but to me, you came off as being an ass, offering no help.

I actually didn't thank Adarias though, I welcomed his crits. Adarias's crits have helped me in the past to improve my skills... perhaps it was bad timing, but I do appreciate his help whenever he can provide it.

Since theres all this talk about improving the sprite, I figure I may as well show you all my updated sprite then.

There it is, though this thread still isn't about the looks of my sprite. ;)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 02:35:10 am by Snippa »

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 05:10:05 am
Update:


starting to look better, but I still need to work on the arms and the legs a bit... looks like more of a run animation than a walk animation at the moment.
Just figured I'd post this as an update because I feel like I'm making a little bit of progress. :)

Edit: Maybe I should have mentioned somewhere that I learn by example rather than being told /shrug. I tend to learn very quickly when given examples or shown what to do.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 05:20:24 am by Snippa »

Offline Gil

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 02:24:15 pm
You missed the single most important thing. The head doesn't move up or down. Also, he's just kicking his legs, they aren't bending or anything...

Offline Dusty

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #14 on: May 09, 2007, 04:19:12 pm
Now you're heading in the right direction, but again, problems with the sprite do effect this. I don't know if it's what you're going for, but those shoulders are way too bulky and large. He ends up looking like a football player, so I think those need to be toned down. Also, unless this is a run animation instead of a walk, I think the lower arms are moving way too drastically. And it's already been stated about his legs and head. I think you got the torso movement done well though.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #15 on: May 09, 2007, 08:45:06 pm
You're right Gil, moving the head seems to have helped a bit.
Dusty, I thought the same exact thing, about him looking like a football player  :lol:
So I toned his shoulders down a bit, they look better I think. You're definately right about the arms as well, I went a bit overboard on them.

Here's what I have now:


Still doesn't seem right, the arm movement may be too little now? I'm not sure.
The legs, I don't think I'm getting the leg movement right still. I believe I have improved it by moving the leg that's supposed to be moving forward closer to the other leg (as far as walking rather than running), but I'm not sure how to make it look more like it's moving forward and taking a step.

Thank you for the input guys.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #16 on: May 09, 2007, 08:52:27 pm
if his entire frame is angled down away from camera, why do his motions follow a path straight for us?  is he looking at his feet while climbing stairs?
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Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #17 on: May 09, 2007, 09:03:33 pm
if his entire frame is angled down away from camera, why do his motions follow a path straight for us?  is he looking at his feet while climbing stairs?
Hmmm, you think I screwed up the perspective in the animation?
Think I should move the leg thats moving forward in more, closer to the leg that's moving back?
Or shade the legs differently, or both?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #18 on: May 09, 2007, 09:19:09 pm
if his entire frame is angled down away from camera, why do his motions follow a path straight for us?  is he looking at his feet while climbing stairs?
Hmmm, you think I screwed up the perspective in the animation?
Think I should move the leg thats moving forward in more, closer to the leg that's moving back?
Or shade the legs differently, or both?

both, and flop the foot down in the contact frames, and make the "vertical" pixel movement of the feet and arms greater :P
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Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #19 on: May 10, 2007, 12:06:33 am
 :huh:

Didn't mess with the arms... just tried fixing the perspective is about it. Seems like the legs need a bit more definition, but I think my eyes are going to bleed if I don't take a break soon. Hopefully it's a slight improvement at the least.  :blind:

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #20 on: May 10, 2007, 12:18:30 am
an improvement, yup :P, one more step on the road ^^

shut your eyes, take a deep breath, count to 10, and then take another crack at it when you're fresh :P
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Offline Gil

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #21 on: May 10, 2007, 12:53:23 am
The next thing I suggest you fix is the legs, the knees don't bend. Try to imagine what the light catching on the bended leg would look like.

Next the arms, they're pretty goo, but not really in perspective when swinging back. If you'd like an edit, just ask...

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #22 on: May 10, 2007, 05:39:14 am
If it's not too much trouble Gil, I would like to see an edit to see how you would change the legs.
I'm not sure how I would go about changing them right now.  ???

Starting to get tired of working on this thing, he still needs clothes damnit.  :mean:
Not to mention, I have to make him face in 7 other directions and walk those ways too.
Thanks for all the help so far guys.

Edit: Curious, how much do you guys think it would help, if at all, if I added 2 more frames, one more for each leg movement? Or do you guys see my current problem as having nothing to do with the animation being only 4 frames?
I *think* that adding another frame for each leg movement may allow for more movement in the leg, but again, I'm a complete noob at animating, so I may be wrong.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 06:57:30 am by Snippa »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #23 on: May 10, 2007, 11:10:35 am
if you add frames, use them to make the animation a complete cycle instead of a ping-pong effect.  that's the first step, since you can't have a very lively animation if he has to reverse each time
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Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #24 on: May 10, 2007, 01:25:37 pm
Edit: Curious, how much do you guys think it would help, if at all, if I added 2 more frames, one more for each leg movement? Or do you guys see my current problem as having nothing to do with the animation being only 4 frames?
I *think* that adding another frame for each leg movement may allow for more movement in the leg, but again, I'm a complete noob at animating, so I may be wrong.

If your plan is to make 8-directional movement, I would strongly advise that you stick with 4 frames. I think the problem is not so much the frame count. You have a problem that is common among beginning animators, which is that every south-facing walk cycle you have ever seen probably was in an RPG or an older game. That crappy, horrible, wretched Squaresoft RPG walk cycle is ingrained in your brain and when you sit down to animate, that's what keeps popping into your mind as opposed to the walking cycle of a real human being. You're on the right track, but you need to avoid the Squaresoft walk like the plague, and concentrate on what a real person looks like when they're walking instead.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 01:27:34 pm by Ben2theEdge »
I mild from suffer dislexia.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #25 on: May 10, 2007, 06:41:16 pm
if you add frames, use them to make the animation a complete cycle instead of a ping-pong effect.  that's the first step, since you can't have a very lively animation if he has to reverse each time
yeah, that's why I was thinking about that.

Quote from: Ben2theEdge
If your plan is to make 8-directional movement, I would strongly advise that you stick with 4 frames. I think the problem is not so much the frame count. You have a problem that is common among beginning animators, which is that every south-facing walk cycle you have ever seen probably was in an RPG or an older game. That crappy, horrible, wretched Squaresoft RPG walk cycle is ingrained in your brain and when you sit down to animate, that's what keeps popping into your mind as opposed to the walking cycle of a real human being. You're on the right track, but you need to avoid the Squaresoft walk like the plague, and concentrate on what a real person looks like when they're walking instead.
That's the plan, to make him move in 8 directions. Good point on the Squaresoft walkcycle, I probably have it burned into my memory and am not aware of it.

Here's my latest update:

I extended the legs moving forward to make the distance forward from the idle stance equal to the distance of the leg moving backward from the idle stance... if that makes any sense, and I'm not sure if this was a "step forward" (as far as completing the animation...heh), or what. I reshaded the leg that moves forward, and modified the backward arm movement slightly (reshaded & move it in closer to the body a bit).

Thoughts? Am I still just not getting it?  ???

Offline Gil

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #26 on: May 10, 2007, 06:52:30 pm
I'll give you an edit when I come home :)

Offline eck

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #27 on: May 10, 2007, 08:22:09 pm
his arms need to bend inward infront of his chest when he steps forward.
untz untz untz?

Offline Dusty

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #28 on: May 10, 2007, 08:52:56 pm
I think he just wants a walking animation, not a running, so I think that would be a little be too drastic.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #29 on: May 10, 2007, 09:05:01 pm
I think he just wants a walking animation, not a running, so I think that would be a little be too drastic.
Yeah, that's why I toned it down so much... I'm not trying to make him run, jog, or power walk. o.O lol
I'm wondering if moving the forward moving leg inward more would help, concerned that it may appear to be more of a female walk though if I do that. Guess I wont know unless I try though...

Offline Gil

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #30 on: May 10, 2007, 10:23:24 pm
There shouldn't be a frame where the foots are on equal heights, you never do that while walking.

Offline candiru

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #31 on: May 10, 2007, 10:38:21 pm
I didn't read the whole thread, but I think you should look at Gil's edits(the first one is hilarious btw) and correct the things that are out of whack in your animation - i.e., the legs don't bend at the knees, the arms don't bend enough in the elbows and don't move in a big enough arc...

Try to imagine how a human walking would look from that perspective - maybe look out the window at someone on the street.

When animating, keep in mind how the motion will be perceived as the frames change. The most important frames are the ones that stay visible longer - in a walk animation, these are the frames where the legs move the slowest, i.e. when a new step begins/ends and legs are wide apart.  The least important frames are the ones where legs move fastest - i.e., when one leg moves ahead of the other and they are close together. Of the three frames in your animation, two are important ones, and one (that gil mentioned) is not important and is actually hurting the animation. If you wanna add more frames (which you should for a sprite that large, I think) choose important ones. This will help you I think:

http://www.idleworm.com/how/anm/02w/walk1.shtml
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 10:41:21 pm by candiru »

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #32 on: May 10, 2007, 11:33:57 pm
It is amazing how much an effect such a slight change has on the animation Gil.
Here's my update:


So simple and easy. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
You guys think I should work on the arms more, or are they fine how they are? As I said before, I don't want them moving too much, he is just walking afterall.

I think I'm about ready to start working on the other directions unless anyone has any objections? :P
Thanks again for all the help and input guys, it has been a major help.

This updated version is so refreshing to the eyes after staring at him sliding for so long.

Offline Dusty

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #33 on: May 10, 2007, 11:58:01 pm
I say you've came a long way with this animation and learned a lot about form and movement, and even go as far as to say it'd be a good feature pixelation.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #34 on: May 11, 2007, 12:37:10 am
yeah, id say you've taken it about as far as this base and frame number will allow, though it would be nice to seee his hips rotate counter to the shoulderline.  any changes besides that now are not to the animation, but to the sprite itself - cosmetics rather than motions.  Once you have a really good sprite moving with clothes, hair, effects, etc, then you can try adding a fuller range of motion, but this nake guy is moving about as much as can really be expected.
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Offline Sharlenwar

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #35 on: May 11, 2007, 01:59:24 am
Well, the reason for the naked guy is because of the game engine. This character will be paperdolled, so that means he will be able to wear armour, swords, shields, etc. Thus, the nakedness is because I want there to be something underneath the clothes when you change your equipment.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #36 on: May 11, 2007, 10:32:04 am
Well, the reason for the naked guy is because of the game engine. This character will be paperdolled, so that means he will be able to wear armour, swords, shields, etc. Thus, the nakedness is because I want there to be something underneath the clothes when you change your equipment.

then i'd say polish the structure so that it has a bit clearer anatomy and then move on to the accessories post-haste
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Offline .TakaM

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #37 on: May 11, 2007, 10:44:35 am
This was originally going to be a PM response to snippa asking me for some help, but it got to the point I should just post it here.

Basically, I don't think I have the best grasp on animating, and everyone who has been helping snippa out has been a great help, so I don't think my input is really needed.
and even though your cycle is only four frames, I think this is a great reference for any walk cycle:


keep up the great work snippa, and I think once you've got your base finished this topic should be up in the news box ;)  :y:
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Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #38 on: May 16, 2007, 07:16:44 am
Update:
Been slowly working on the east walk animation... mostly trying to get the legs right.
The final east facing still sprite edit was made by Sharlenwar (tweaks to thin him out mostly, and a curve to the arm).
I feel the head could use a bit more work, but this is mainly just work on the legs right now to get him moving.

->->

I need to pick up the legs a bit, and I am about to go in and add the other half of the arm and face animations as soon as I'm done posting this... I'm very aware the first one looks like absolute crap lol ... it was saved like that pretty much just to try and get an idea of how the legs were going to look, and is just the "right" side of the sprite that is actually moving.

I'll have another update in a little while with the changes to the arms and the head, and probably the tweaks to the legs that will look like a more complete animation.
Any thoughts on the general look of the legs (aside from the fact that they need to be picked up more when he's walking)?

Edit: updated with the changes I stated I was going to make in this post, you may begin picking it apart piece by piece :P
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 10:04:11 am by Snippa »

Offline mangust

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #39 on: May 16, 2007, 02:54:33 pm
Hi.
He needs more brutal, like on front view. Work with forms you person than do animation.
Now you animation for different persons, not for one.
Animation from this side is too flat and not enough move shoulder.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #40 on: May 17, 2007, 03:49:57 am
Hi.
He needs more brutal, like on front view. Work with forms you person than do animation.
Now you animation for different persons, not for one.
Animation from this side is too flat and not enough move shoulder.
Your crits are pretty vague, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say.
I don't think I can really move the shoulders in this view, not like how they were moved in the other animation anyways. Any attempt I made at that would end up with the same result you already see, unless I'm missing something. o.O

Offline mangust

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #41 on: May 17, 2007, 08:24:32 am
Ok, I see. Look on this sketch.
With form i talk about this:

Animation sketch - see on move shoulders and foots

I think, you understand me now and i hope this is usefull for you.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #42 on: May 17, 2007, 11:15:41 pm
Ok, I see. Look on this sketch.
With form i talk about this:

Animation sketch - see on move shoulders and foots

I think, you understand me now and i hope this is usefull for you.
Problems I see with your edits:
Light source on the head doesn't match the light source of the original south facing sprite. There appears to be more light hitting the face in your edit. (not that my east facing sprite meets the exact light source on the head either, but it is closer)
The arm is WAY too bulky for what I want, I'm not trying to make a guy that's on steroids. hehe
The arm movement in your animation is unrealistic, people don't normally move their arms back that much when they are walking. I could probably make them move back a tiny bit more, but any more than maybe 1 or 2 pixels and it wont be right.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5783829621264963183&q=people+walking

You have a point on the shape of the head, I forgot to reshape it in this last edit (don't think i would go with the shape you did though), and I suppose reshading around the shoulders may help a bit, I'll see what I can do with that.

Offline Stwelin

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #43 on: May 18, 2007, 02:41:39 am
It may just be me, but i think you are acting a little out of line here calling out what's "wrong" with his edit.

Your own attempt wasn't any more realistic than his, so I cannot see how you even try to make that argument. Mag's edit looks more correct, perspective-wise, so nitpicking little things like the lightsource is absolutely ridiculous. Take the good parts of his edit and use them to create a better sprite.  ::)

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #44 on: May 18, 2007, 04:19:00 am
I agree.  The point of an edit is to help you, so take from it what you can, if anything, and disregard what you do not want to use.  An edit is not here for critique, it is not a piece of art, but simply a tool for you to use, if you wish.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #45 on: May 23, 2007, 06:32:19 am
update:

Shaped the head up a bit and messed with the shading around the neck/shoulders a little.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #46 on: May 23, 2007, 01:09:58 pm
he has nowhere near the same sizes as the frontview.  If it helps, draw him on a slight angle instead of a stright-up portrait, this will help you match up volumes
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Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #47 on: May 23, 2007, 01:54:37 pm
he has nowhere near the same sizes as the frontview.  If it helps, draw him on a slight angle instead of a stright-up portrait, this will help you match up volumes
Not sure exactly what you mean here...
I used that guide you showed me (well, not your guide, but my own with how you said it's supposed to work), and this is what I came up with. Everything fits in the guides as they should. Not sure what more I can do to improve it.

Did I screw up with the guides somehow?

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #48 on: May 23, 2007, 05:00:27 pm
look at snippa's post, your guy with the profile view looks skinny, not beefy!

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #49 on: May 23, 2007, 05:04:05 pm
look at snippa's post, your guy with the profile view looks skinny, not beefy!
:huh:
Who was that directed at? o.O

Offline Draco9898

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #50 on: May 23, 2007, 06:47:06 pm
Oppsie, I meant look at mangust's post on your person's FORM. :) From the side-view it just looks wrong as he's not chunky like the front-view. OR if he's really supposed-to to be skinny, then the front-view is wrong.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 06:48:53 pm by Draco9898 »

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #51 on: May 23, 2007, 06:49:21 pm
Ah, this character is meant to be slim, not bulky.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #52 on: May 23, 2007, 07:40:19 pm
OR if he's really supposed-to to be skinny, then the front-view is wrong.
Hows that? looks fine to me o.O

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #53 on: May 24, 2007, 10:39:29 am
please use the edit button.  Also, he is definitely bulky from the front, skinny from the side.  We know it looks fine to you, you made it, that's the purpose of critique.  We offer you observation that you might not have made on your own, and attempt to offer solutions you might not have found.

As for the guides, the side view character is directly side-on, and the front view character angled, so yes, if you believe you used the guidelines i suggested, you did not.

im off to class, but ill post the guidelines in a few hours
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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #54 on: May 24, 2007, 11:39:08 am
please use the edit button.  Also, he is definitely bulky from the front, skinny from the side.  We know it looks fine to you, you made it, that's the purpose of critique.  We offer you observation that you might not have made on your own, and attempt to offer solutions you might not have found.

As for the guides, the side view character is directly side-on, and the front view character angled, so yes, if you believe you used the guidelines i suggested, you did not.

im off to class, but ill post the guidelines in a few hours
I'm sorry, by what I said in my last post, I meant that he does not appear bulky at all to me in the south view (except in the very first image, before I got the animation correct), and I definately did not intend him to look bulky. More of a "fit" physique rather than chubby build or a muscular wrestler-like build. And that is how it appears to me when I look at it. Feel free to provide tips on improving the "fit" look I meant for him to have whether it's on the south view, this east view or my future work on this character.

I thought that I did use the guides right, but I have also felt like the perspective is off, of course I do want everything to be correct.
It's very possible that your character that you had within your guides threw me off when I looked at it.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #55 on: May 24, 2007, 11:45:46 am
the guides are what puts things in perspective.


here is the sample i startled earlier - sorry it took so long to post



this is what i tried to explain before about setting the circles.  The differences between this sketch and your sideview are not immediately obvious, but when you add in the "ticket que" with red lines for the path of the hands and black lines for the path of the feet, you can see where the difference is.  You have a very angled frontview but your sideview is straight-on.  If he exists in space, that which is "deeper" on the z-axis of the sprite should be higher in the frame.

Only thing i changed was that in my views i pushed the feet apart slightly; walking with your heels together just seems awkward to me, despite it's popularity



If you want him to be less like a wrestler, you need to seriously decrease the width of the shoulders and pull them down where they join the arms.  Only someone with serious muscles can have shoulders that broad and beefy.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 11:49:04 am by Adarias »
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Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #56 on: May 24, 2007, 01:21:40 pm
If you want him to be less like a wrestler, you need to seriously decrease the width of the shoulders and pull them down where they join the arms.  Only someone with serious muscles can have shoulders that broad and beefy.
Ok ok ok, maybe I wanted him to be a little bit more than JUST fit... I dunno, but I really like how the south view came out.
At first glance of those guides, I couldn't really tell much of a difference between your edit and my east view character except shading.
As far as how the legs are placed, yeah I messed up there for sure, I thought I had corrected the problem there in one of my last edits, guess I was wrong. Thanks for pointing that out.
Also, I didn't place my guides in the exact positions you did, but mine came out VERY similar to yours, so I guess I wasn't completely off.
Those lines you added for guides in the very bottom of the image, I of course, hadn't thought of.
It's nice to see sorta what my s/e view is going to look like too. -The corner views are what are really freakin me out about making this sprite, not completely comfortable with drawing on an angle like that. :P

I'll do some more editting of it in a bit and see what I come up with.

Also... by wrestler, at the time I was thinking along the lines of Brock Lesnar, Batista, Bobby Lashley, Scott Steiner... which is why I took a bit of weight off my character's arms. :P
I imagine this character's overall build to be along the lines of John Cena, Rob Van Dam, Ray Mysterio, just not nearly as muscular as Cena. If that makes any sense at all.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 01:35:42 pm by Snippa »

Offline Draco9898

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #57 on: May 24, 2007, 01:31:07 pm
I'd also like to point out his edit has pretty good chest anatomy, your looks like hes buff, yet his rip cage shows through oddly.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #58 on: May 24, 2007, 01:42:08 pm
I'd also like to point out his edit has pretty good chest anatomy, your looks like hes buff, yet his rip cage shows through oddly.
Wasn't really my intention to make his ribs show through, I guess I can make some edits to that area to see how it comes out. I really just wanted that area to be only a little bit more shaded to add more definition.

Offline piotrek255

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #59 on: May 24, 2007, 04:46:47 pm
the animation looks kind of stiff, if the cyclop-like robo move animation was your goal then its good, if not, then add more rotation to the upper arm part and shoulders, i would suggest lowering his chest a bit to give him more scary look.
my way of the pixel? -> minimum effort, maximum quality 0_0

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #60 on: May 26, 2007, 05:51:11 pm
Slight update:
->
(old)
Did alot of reshading, though it is probably hardly noticable, moved the "left" leg a few pixels higher, as well as the left hand.
I still see alot I need to do with this before I can consider it finished...

I'm not completely sure about the shading on the head.
In Adarias's edit, it seems like he changed the light source on the head when turning the character. It does seem to help a bit with perspective oddly, but I'm wanting the light source to be pretty much directly above the character.

I'll probably mess around with the shading on the head some later today. I think I may also need to thin out the legs a bit for perspective, or change how they move, I'm not completely sure.  :huh: Think I'm starting to get a headache from staring at this animation too long trying to figure out how to fix it.

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #61 on: May 26, 2007, 05:58:09 pm
What's the deal here?  You've gotten multiple, very detailed crits explaining every problem with your animation, and yet you've taken next to no action on any of them.  You still have senseless dithering, bad perspective, stiff movements, a bad palette, and your front anatomy still doesn't match your side anatomy.  If you want to continue to improve, get off your high horse and start making some of these big changes!  You've been posting the same animation and the same excuses for weeks now.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #62 on: May 26, 2007, 06:20:09 pm
What's the deal here?  You've gotten multiple, very detailed crits explaining every problem with your animation, and yet you've taken next to no action on any of them.  You still have senseless dithering, bad perspective, stiff movements, a bad palette, and your front anatomy still doesn't match your side anatomy.  If you want to continue to improve, get off your high horse and start making some of these big changes!  You've been posting the same animation and the same excuses for weeks now.
???
I have been applying what I see needs to be applied... such has reshading, reshaping in certain areas, moved things that have needed to be moved that were screwing up the perspective.
How does the anatomy not match? I have followed guides shown to me to make sure everything is in place where it should be . I am on no high horse Adam, I just work slow and have been extremely frustrated with this.

My dithering has been pretty senseless yes, which is why I removed the majority of it in my most recent edit. My dithering is always senseless until the final product o.O heh
What is wrong with the movements? Seriously, you don't think that I should swing the arms back unrealisticly too do you?

My palette, will probably never suit most people on these forums, and I don't intend it to suit anyone but me, because that is my taste in colors/shades. Definately not perfect no, but the colors I choose are part of my style.

I am seriously trying... and aparently failing, at least when it comes to most of the people who have posted in this thread.

Also to Adarias: been wondering, what is the math used behind the 2nd set of guides you have there?

Edit: not to mention, probably 500~ of the views on this thread so far have been mine, studying edits and crits made on it... its really driving me nuts. :(
« Last Edit: May 26, 2007, 06:30:13 pm by Snippa »

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #63 on: May 26, 2007, 06:33:43 pm


These are the changes you've seen fit to make so far, in spite of:


Mangust's VERY helpful mockup of how to add a little more liveliness to the motion...



Adarias' fabulous example of the perspective and anatomy issues to reconcile your two views.

I know that this is your first animation, and you're right, this stuff is NOT easy.  But I'm seeing a lot of typing about "oh i want it this way, even though it obviously looks worse" and not a whole lot of actually paying attention to the loads of effort that people are putting into helping you grow.  No one is insisting on style changes or even attitude changes for the character.  All of the best crits have been for the character as you have designed him, according to the way that you want to do this project.  You have perspective, anatomy and motion issues, period, and people have illustrated for you exactly what these problems are.  Yet, you continue to edit a few pixels at a time, and then post excuses?

As far as the colors go, no one is critting the hues you've selected.  However, within those hues, you do not have enough contrast; it muddies your design and makes it very hard to read.  Also, you appear to be working on black, which is not helping you any; try working on gray and seeing if some of the contrast issues are a little more apparent!

I know that some of the artists on here sometimes crit things according to their personal preferences, but the advice you have received thus far is artistically sound an stylistically unbiased.  Cast a critical eye on your work, and you will continue to advance as you did when you started this sprite!

Offline eck

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #64 on: May 26, 2007, 08:51:06 pm
honestly, theres stylistic shading and color choice, and then there is just plain BAD color choice and shading.  my sprite introduces 1 new color, re-uses that one highlight tone you had on only one of his shoulders, that was exactly the same as the color right next to it XD, upped the contrast, hue shifted a bit, and reshaded much of his chest.



its a good thing you didnt pillow-shade, as i have seen done in sprites of a similar style, multiple times, because if you had, i think it would have looked a bunch worse XD

[edit:] [rephrased the last sentence a bit, as it was rather obnoxious before]
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 01:58:51 am by eck »
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Offline Turbo

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #65 on: May 26, 2007, 10:40:01 pm


Better palette, bad torso anatomy.

Offline Feron

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #66 on: May 26, 2007, 10:46:10 pm


 :0# - that edit does nothing for this piece.  At least the original has a plausible skin pallete, plus he did need over-contrasturisation.

I would work on your animation skills considering that is why your started this thread, and look at the techniques used on the individual frames when your more experienced. 

Keep going, theres so many helpful resources in this thread - all it needs is a little elbow grease and your animation will be a lot better.   ;D

Offline eck

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #67 on: May 26, 2007, 10:47:48 pm
right, so you prefered his better? :hehe: :hehe:
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Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #68 on: May 26, 2007, 11:38:55 pm
Getting off-topic here fellas.  Eck, the extra contrast you added helps the sprite, but little else.  I don't think you're ready to throw around comments like this:

Quote
the only way i think your sprite could have looked worse would have been if you had pillow shaded XD

...especially with an edit that barely helps anything.  Beyond that, your edit does not address anything that actually NEEDS changing that is of importance.  Snippa's focus right now should be perspective, anatomy, and motion.  Your edit addresses none of these things, and you threw in a rude comment on top of that.

Snippa, keep thinkin on the stuff we talked about on IM, I look forward to your next update!

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #69 on: May 27, 2007, 12:05:44 am
there's little math to it, other than it is based on the idea of a 2:1 isometric projection, an angle close to your original sprite, which means that a square in this projection resting in a horizontal plane will be twice as wide as it is high, and when measured against a vertical line (which represents the z axis btw), the angles for the x and y axes are of equal measure, in this case, a slope of 1/2 (see: 2:1 projection).  For an object rotating around fixed point  remaining equidistant form it, such as any body part rotating around the center of balance, the path of its rotation can be charted by a a regular circle.  Because we are in 2:1 projection and the 'orbit' lies within a horizontal plane, the path is represented by an elispe which is twice as wide as it is high.  the elipse is centered on the central point at a height equal to the percieved height of the body part.  Blue in this particular case represents shoulders, green the hands, purple the head, and yellow both the waist and feet.  important veritices, such as the shoulder and hip joints, hands and feet, are marked on the original sprite as well as the rotations.
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Offline eck

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #70 on: May 27, 2007, 01:54:05 am
Getting off-topic here fellas.  Eck, the extra contrast you added helps the sprite, but little else.  I don't think you're ready to throw around comments like this:

Quote
the only way i think your sprite could have looked worse would have been if you had pillow shaded XD

...especially with an edit that barely helps anything.  Beyond that, your edit does not address anything that actually NEEDS changing that is of importance.  Snippa's focus right now should be perspective, anatomy, and motion.  Your edit addresses none of these things, and you threw in a rude comment on top of that.

Snippa, keep thinkin on the stuff we talked about on IM, I look forward to your next update!

i have to dissagree once again.  a blob-like sprite with a perfect walk cycle is worse (to me) then a well made sprite with a lame walk cycle. 

rude?  i ment it more as a complament that he didnt pillow shade =/ [edit] looking back at it, i guess i did phrase it a bit badly, ill edit.[/edit]

things that NEED changing?  excuse me if im wrong, but wouldnt it have been a beter idea to create a decent sprite, with solid colors (not mine, mine was like 3 minuite editing, just to show that the colors needed changing) then to just start animating a bad sprite?

speeking of off topic, i dont think ive seen you post any advice at all.  i think it is YOU that is going off topic.

i have made my point, and given my critique on the sprite, as i am terrible at animating, so i wont post anymore unless i get 'called out' again
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 01:57:05 am by eck »
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Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #71 on: May 27, 2007, 04:36:11 am
1 - No one is advocating a crap sprite with a good walk cycle.  Many people are advocating a simpler, unpolished sprite with a good walkcycle.  There is a difference.

2 - You most certainly did not mean that as a complement.  It was snarky BS, and you'll keep things like that to yourself from now on.

3 - Again, no one is advocating animating a crap sprite.  Many people are advocating the use of a less polished sprite so that problems with anatomy and motion can be fixed more quickly.

4 - I did not post my 20 minute IM conversation with Snippa, so I will ignore your comments about my allegedly useless posts and lack of advice.

Eck, if you find a good artist who does advocate polish before solid fundamentals, be sure to let me know.  I have yet to meet one.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #72 on: May 27, 2007, 11:07:04 pm
if novella-type posts from various artists containing valid critiques are making little (but important) headway, it might be better to stick to those.
Eck - your edit doesnt really address the key issues of the piece, and the snippy remarks aren't very helpful either, but that's no reason to stop posting.  I've seen your stuff and know that you have enough knowledge to give decent advice, it would be a shame if you refused to share the whole of your knowledge because you quick paintover got roughed up a bit.


Snippa - looks like your the only poster in yourr thread observing the sabbath ^^.

For your next update, i would work on getting some more rotation of the hips and shoulders in the sideview sprite (which will be shown by shifting the shoulders horizontally a piel or two.)  you've got alittle bit right now in the front shoulder, but you can move it even more than this, and remember that other shoulder will move counter to it.

Keep pushing forward with the basics before focussing on individual frames.  General to specific is a tried and true method for learning the structure and mechanics of a piece.

as far as projections go, i would highly reccomend this book as a comrehensive to the basic concepts and practical applications.
http://www.hurststheheart12.com/product.php?isbn=0078457483
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Malor

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #73 on: May 27, 2007, 11:39:34 pm


 :0# - that edit does nothing for this piece.  At least the original has a plausible skin pallete, plus he did need over-contrasturisation.



Agreed, I think the other pallette works alot better with this peice.
Quote from: Adarias
I'm not going to pretend this is a small task either; certainly none of us here can claim to have accomplished it.  it's the realm of masters.  still, it's what we all have to try for.

Offline Snippa

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Re: My first ever animation

Reply #74 on: June 10, 2007, 01:44:19 am
update:


Changes:
Removed the 2nd lightest color (actually just remembered the final frame still contains it, i'll remove it later), added a darker color for the far leg & arm.
Fixed the position of the far leg & arm.
Gave the shoulders some actual movement.
Beefed up the arms by 2 pixels.
Gave him a nose (after a comment made by .TakaM).
Tried to match the hip movement with the shoulder movement (suggested by Adarias).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 01:51:39 am by Snippa »