AuthorTopic: Invoicing  (Read 7564 times)

Offline Frychiko

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #10 on: April 14, 2007, 02:58:19 am
It is bollocks. I stand by that. Whether you go down either path, you have to tread carefully. You can screw yourself easily by underestimating on fixed pricing, or estimating too much and finishing early and it is difficult to estimate how long you'll take at times. Hourly rate is definitely not a special case.

If you work too fast, you'll be cheating yourself.
If you work too fast, you'll have more time for other paying projects, or time to yourself. I see what you mean though, though I never look at this as a bad thing. You'll probably impress your employer and get more work from them, or they may recommended you.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 02:59:54 am by Frychiko »
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Offline AdamTierney

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #11 on: April 15, 2007, 04:50:33 am
You'll probably impress your employer and get more work from them, or they may recommended you.

Yup. There are a few guys I work with that are definitly not cheap in their hourly rate, but they're so fast and professional that they're totally worth it.

Offline Doppleganger

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 04:39:20 am
I'll have to agree that hourly pricing is the way to go. There are a few instances where it's not, and these are usually just 1 day projects being done for a new client.

I've charged hourly for quite some time now, and not once have I come across somebody asking for loads of paperwork or disbelieving me. The fact of the matter is, if you are reputable and can give a rough estimate of the time it's going to take, most employers won't make a deal out of paying you hourly.

Most of the benefits of hourly rates has been stated so I'll just leave it at that for now.

Offline AdamAtomic

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #13 on: April 16, 2007, 05:55:25 am
It sounds like there is not just *one* way to go.  Most of the jobs my company gets require firm bids, not estimates, so hourly is out of the question for our particular contracts, but it sounds like it is working out great for you guys!

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 11:08:03 am
What's up Chilko! ;D

haha. thanks for all the feedback guys, Chiko specially for laying the controversy

Back to the original topic, I asume none of the guys who charge hourly have a time tracking software to keep the timings for them?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #15 on: April 19, 2007, 02:21:57 am
It has always been my understanding that the freelance industry (not just games, mind) is run mainly by pieces and not hours because it is just so much of a hassle to try and track hours even for on-site work.  Also, almost all of "them" (the non-freelancers i mean) either are salary employees (management) or by comission (company artists).  I haven't heard of full-time employees in the industry who work hourly, though i wont pretend to know all the ins and outs.

When it comes to fine arts, hourly wages are nonexistant.  You either name your price for a client or they make a bid, but it is always a fixed fee.

For long term projects, what i have seen is that the pieces get broken up fewer times.  someone who is only doing a single character might have his contract broken down by animation set.  Someone who is making an entire game might get payed per character, or if they are simple, may have a single entry that is just considered "characters."  It is important to know exactly what each of these entries will entail as far as size, number, and detail of images so that you can make a proper estimate.  Knowing your client well is a big tihng, too - redoing work sucks especially if you didnt plan on it in your named price.

The big problem I have with hourly wages is that they scream "I am lowly!  I am part-time!  I am working class!" which is NOT the way most people would want to present themselves to a company they want to negotiate with.  To be treated fairly you need to come to the table as big boy who knows what's up and is ready to play the game.  When they put you on a clock, they own you.  They are the boss, you are the worker.  You will always lose.  In order to make the most of a buisiness deal, you need to tell them exactly what you will do and for what.  You tell them what it will require.  I dont mean be a bitch about things, but respectfully let the client know that you are the professional that they are contracting because you know how to get the job done.  Impress them.  If you are the best guy for the job you will get the job most of the time, and they will tell their friends about who they hired and how good your work is and how they found a very organized, professional freelancer - not one of those unreliable strangers who works by the hour could turn out anything under the sun.  It really will make a difference in how you are seen by the people whose business you need.



none of this applies to people who know you well, becuase they know exactly what to expect from you and they will treat you fairly because they know you personally.  If your client is also your friend, you are lucky.  This will not happen for every job though - and it most likely wont happen for most jobs.



Really, the best way to do things is the way the msot successful artists and businessmen do things - by pieces, not by hours.






Original topic - Invoices are extremely simple, especially if you already know what you have done, If the program can tell you how many hours you worked, you dont need it to automatically "export" an invoice, as im sure you already know based on the fact that you dont have one doing that for you.  I mean seriously, what is it, a half line of text? :P
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 02:26:15 am by Adarias »
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Offline Frychiko

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #16 on: April 19, 2007, 09:40:19 am
Sorry Conceit, I just do everything manually (notepad, excel)
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Offline AdamTierney

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Re: Invoicing

Reply #17 on: April 21, 2007, 03:34:50 am
Actually, my company has plenty of fulltime freelancers. I freelanced at WayForward for a year before I became salaried, and at least 8 months of that was as a fulltimer. I agree that in terms of negotiation and exuding professionalism, a set price is probably better. But what you end up having a lot of on handheld games is tons of little unexpected art chores that need doing, and for those it's great to have people around who are hourly that can work on anything at any time, without having to negotiate pricing over and over. They're not seen as lesser (at leats not at my company) and they get their full 40+ hours a week, they just haven't been formally hired yet. Some people at the company even choose to remain freelance, because they prefer the freedom - a freelancer is under no obligation to do anything beyond their immediate workload, while a salaried person is.