AuthorTopic: faces and long posts.  (Read 7661 times)

Offline Helm

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #10 on: March 28, 2007, 04:20:07 am
I agree with Helm (are you sure you didn't understand what he said?).

I had an idea but the quote was vague, so that was my way of asking him to elaborate on the statement, as well as the relevant point I wanted to make in the case it was pertinent.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #11 on: March 28, 2007, 09:37:27 pm
faceless: haha, i wont develop them then. for this piece though they will stay, i would only go for something extremely anatomically correct if pixeling was the only art i did. why cant i have my little bit of fun in pixelart and leave all the proportions, angles, relations and etc for traditional art?

Offline Helm

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #12 on: March 28, 2007, 11:50:04 pm
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why cant i have my little bit of fun in pixelart and leave all the proportions, angles, relations and etc for traditional art?

I dunno... because posting here means you want to become better at pixel art?...

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 12:12:31 am
so shouldnt the focus of the critique be near exclusively on pixel tech unless there are such glaring issues with the piece non pixel wise that they need to be addressed first?
thats what faktablad did and ill try and post an udpate soon. i dont think any more needs to be said about the whole" realistic first, then distort"

Offline Helm

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 12:30:32 am
Perhaps some would feel so. I find the extremely odd facial structure and anatomy distracting to the degree that it would come first, yes. When you look for example, at Mia's avatar, you won't complain about anatomy because it's very clear he's using light and form adeptly to create his otherwise completely unreal piece of work. But I see yours and whereas the pixel tech isn't wrong or anything, you don't seem to grasp even the volumetrics of a human face yet, let alone purposefully distort them. I think it's a cop-out, this whole 'I am not trained, therefore I have no bad habits' thing. Not being trained is a bad habit, and defending ignorance is a bad habit. I would suggest studying facial construction and anatomy extensively, then reworking this piece until it's significantly more in control.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #15 on: March 29, 2007, 01:13:11 am
I have found that many honest people have done drawings which are very distorted who care not for what is correct and therefore produce pieces which are visually interesting.  The majority of these are people who already have a strong background in realism, but there have been outliers.  The people who tend to say "Im not going for realism so don't tell me" tend to be people who are perhaps subconciously insecure and try to cover up inexperience with arrogance, but again, sometimes there are people who really just for one peice are not concerned.

I have also found that the majority of people who go on about how you must know forms to distort them (a popular remark) are about one year into their schooling (or even before) and are vomiting back up their professor's words without though and often without usefulness, merit, or even sometimes understanding, and they are throwing ti out there not for the benefit of the artist or the piece, but so they can pat themselves on the ass for knowing better, others though are genuine and think that the advice is proper and well-suited to the topic.

Chris - you are still early in your process but you already have a very strong grasp of greater anatomy.  everyone here knows that you are very conscious of form and anatomy.  you also say that you haven't truely studied the forms of the face.  Some things im sure - the exaggerated chin for example - are purposeful distortions, but if you don't have a strong foundation, do you really know what all is on purpose and what is lack of understanding?
Because you so often concentrate on accuracy and we talked about how you were trying to pixel quickly - not draw accurately, im willing to believe that this is one piece where you simply put aside your typical aims in favor of trying to put out good pixel technique quickly.  the fact that you have not recieved many crits on that aspect means that you achieved your goal much more than you thought earlier, which brings me back to our discussion about not hating your work :P

Helm - we all know you have a lot of experience and I agree with your words here, that the underlying principles are not developed.  However, i would say that this piece is the exception to the rule, which is that ryu is typically well-focussed on the important things.





Basically that was a long-winded way of saying that you both make good points and could listen well to each other. 

From what you've said ryu this piece has probably gone as far as it will, and should you be lacking inspiration i would strongly encourage your next piece be a study of the structure and form of the human face, both to help your own goals and to help the rest here settle :P
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #16 on: March 29, 2007, 01:19:51 am
oh wow i didnt mean to cause such a discussion, with the authors im sure itll be an interesting read. until i do though, heres an update:

Offline Helm

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #17 on: March 29, 2007, 01:33:16 am
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Helm - we all know you have a lot of experience and I agree with your words here, that the underlying principles are not developed.  However, i would say that this piece is the exception to the rule, which is that ryu is typically well-focussed on the important things.

There's a lot of users on this forum that I've watched and tried to help since their very beginnings here and Ryumaru is one of them, so I think I'm quite intimately in understanding of his progress and more importantly his shortcomings. I think Ryu has placed a lot of attention to the male anatomical physique sure, but in a very strict environment that would potentially hurt him in the future unless he branches out. Namely, the cyclopic being in a dark bakground. He's done many, many variations of that, and they've been getting better but I'd be really glad to see him draw a woman on a couch or a cat playing with a ball or someone picking up the phone or two young lovers making out on the hood of the boy's car in midnight or whatever. Not more cyclopean beings with bulging muscles, outstretched or in an idle pose.

So when he does something new, namely a human face, although it's still red and in a dark background, I take a personal interest in encouraging him to work it until he grows, not just hid behind excuses like 'I don't care for realism here'. You say Ryu works the forms and anatomy much and this is an exception so it's okay it's not 'realistic'. I say it's the first time after his avatar where I see him draw a human face and I know how shit-scary it can be to tackle something new, and how the first impluse is to abandon and go back to drawing in your comfort zone. I once said "I'll never draw girls in my life!" after such a preliminary - and hilariously failed - attempt. So what Ryu needs to hear is not comforting words. He should be applauded for trying new things - and human faces are some of the msot important things to learn to draw - and at the same time pushed to do it do it do it again, more, better.

About the truism 'master the form before you break it', I'm rather suggesting 'have a comparatively okay control over form before you break it more than you already do subconsciously' which is a moderate statement that doesn't require me to be of any particular skill-level to suggest as a good method. How long I've been critiquing or drawing is irrelevant and I do not like ti see it being mention in the same breath in which we're discussing artistic critique. If pixelation has taught me one thing, it is how people who might not be good artists sometimes have suprizingly sharp eyes for critique. I don't take a lot of pride as an artist, but I do like to think I've got a sharp eye for critique.

edit

ryu, two crits. First of all, eye too close to nose. Second, wouldn't you say under the lip it wouldn't catch much light, given the position of the lightsource. Look at it as a geometric primitive.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 01:50:49 am by Helm »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #18 on: March 29, 2007, 01:53:02 am
Ryu - good update.  Can't wait to see the next one :P

helm makes some good points in his drawing - pay particular attention to the regions near the mouth, how the skin falls around it, and also to the eye socket - how the crest fo the bone pushes out from the skull before offering up the weak temple.

Helm - IMO experience is a testament to one's ability to think and critique from their own thoughts, not those of others.  Chris seemed a little dismissive in a previous post, so I ment nothing other than that you have a long track record of offering personal, genuine critique, and that your advice was far more than the secondhand rhetoric many might offer.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 01:58:27 am by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: speedpixel.

Reply #19 on: March 29, 2007, 01:53:38 am
thankyouthankyouthankyou for that edit, helm. google search for lips produced nothing but women lips with no form anglular forms whatsoever.

edit:
also, to humor your words helm, heres a profile that ive started. very early on but just thought id show now

based off of myself but im not trying to achieve a likeness.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 02:16:06 am by Ryumaru »