AuthorTopic: Doom Mod death animation  (Read 12858 times)

Offline xanthier

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • I need a lightsaber!
    • View Profile

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #10 on: October 06, 2005, 09:23:55 pm
When he died, wouldn't he be placed lower than he actually is?

They fall out of the sky, so I think he'll rest on the ground as long as the animation is over quickly.

Camus, I believe it is about 7-10 frames but I will have to check because I have the specific numbers at home. My animation program is not here atm. I want the top of his head to blow off, then his lower jaw to disintegrate before he crashes to the ground, however by default the monster's sprite will move toward the ground upon death, so I'm not sure I should have the animation move all that much, I only did so cause I wanted to show where the pieces land, not sure how to remedy that because it probably extends the image more than is necessary.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 09:32:30 pm by xanthier »
For this, a long time have I waited.

Offline Doomraider

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #11 on: October 07, 2005, 12:48:13 am
Use the new zdoom and use a decorate lump in the wad if you wanna change the frame crap and stuff. As for the animation, it looks awesome, in doom itll do it alot faster and just look right. By the way, did you add extra teeth to the cacodemon? Because it looks really creepy/awesome.

Offline FaeryShivers

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Happy Ufo Studios

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #12 on: October 07, 2005, 01:05:37 pm
but in the end the comment itself could be done by anyone



So could "Add more AA" and "use selective outlining"


The original post asks for ways to make it not jerky, more frames would accomplish this if properly done.
I don't believe it is fair for you to say that  saying adding more frames is as "useless" as saying "make it bigger."
I find that somewhat degrading. I often make pieces with lots of frames and then slowly cut them down, its a very good learning process. (Yes I realize its a doom mod and they have a restricted frame count but its still no excuse to say things like that.)

Sorry to "sorta" pick on you as well but I really don't think think your comment was fair.
-puts her meany face away-  :P

To get back on track here, Xanthier you may want to try what I mentioned.
Make it with a bunch of frames and then figure out which ones can be cut without
getting overly choppy. You need to distract the eye from any jumpy movements by having
other things to look at. You probably don't want to be  overly obvious about it though.
 The only part that seems really awkward to me is when his eye falls out ( I believe thats whats happening anyway
.) You don't have enough frames to make it move like organs would  move when they fall out completely,
so why not just make it "hang" out instead of trying to turn it on its side like that. Also
since you're endlessly looping the death sequence you may want to have it stay at the "death" frame for
a few extra seconds just so we can see how it looks. You may be suprised how much better it looks when you're
not constantly looping really fast.




« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 01:21:41 pm by FaeryShivers »

Offline Darion

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 234
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Portfolio bitch

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #13 on: October 07, 2005, 06:14:15 pm
When he died, wouldn't he be placed lower than he actually is?

They fall out of the sky, so I think he'll rest on the ground as long as the animation is over quickly.

I know that, but doesn't the original touch the ground earlier? Your particles fall farther down than the original.
@darionmccoy

Offline Conzeit

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1448
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Camus
    • conzeit
    • View Profile
    • CONZEIT

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #14 on: October 07, 2005, 11:23:09 pm
but in the end the comment itself could be done by anyone



So could "Add more AA" and "use selective outlining"

I completly agree, your point? I think they are all about as useless. You ask anyone I chat to and they'd confirm you I do not apreciate any of those comments. All of them, if not suggested for a very specific reason, are a total waste of time, because they suggest you spend extra time adding extra polish into a sprite "just because", and as we all know every pixelpiece could always be more polished, therefore  me all these are about like saying hey "make a better piece" only masked a little bit to fit the situation.

I do belive that there was something unfair in my post, and that was to direct it only to just poor little Fatal, because it wasnt like he just came and said useless crap, he was honestly giving his best crit, it just happened to be a nasty habit that he, as a new member picked up from the peers he looks up to, so it's not really his fault. Anyone who reads it, take it as a personal advice too, as I said, it's a good way to think in general.

if you find it somewhat degrading, maybe you should :p, I wont deny that I have done it too, but making a bunch of frames just to erease them IS a waste, as with any waste or defeat you can learn a lot, but it is not a good advice to tell someone to waste their time.

I dont think you really got my point, see, it's just like sals used to say, people tend to think smooth=good, when smooth=smooth, efficient=good, so adding a bunch of frames for no reason is just a waste of time.

If more frames were a solution for anything, any idiot could make the best animation if he just had the time to make 4029658365 frames, but that isnt the case, to animate correctly you have to be aware of the implications each one of the movements you draw make, and to be able to fullfill all these implications in the remeaining frames. Now, belive me, I say this because of my experience, adding frames to fix your animation can only mean trouble, because the problems will all still be there, you'll just have to fix them in a lot more  frames than what you had before, making it 10 times a bigger pain in the ass than before. Adding frames to fix an animation can effectively ruin it (I've done it myself).

to prove my point, Xanthier actually did what you suggested, a really long anim, and then cut them down. obviously it didnt quite work out.

now, I hope that's it for that subject, now Xanthier, I think in your case, the best advice I can give you given that you have few frames, is to make everything do what it has to do in only one movement. see, maybe you want the cacodemon to blow his head up and then fall, you'll have to settle with him blowing his head while he falls, and somewhere in there de-integrate his jaw as well.

Do not add any frame that doesnt move the anim fordward, for example your starting frame goes in a completly diferent direction than the rest of em, you really dont have time for that, you'll have to learn to make every frame lead into the next, trace the routes every part of caco will take (I mean in your head, but do it phisically if you have to) and then draw all the movements following those lines.
also, you have all the guts falling, and then caco suddenly snapping to the ground, that looks choppy, if you want to have his guts fall first, have them both fall, while maybe his guts do so a little earlier/faster than the rest of him.

for example, you want the brain to blow up, dont make it blow up, and then fall down, just make it blow up. if you want the jaw to de-integrate, make that while it falls too, because you probably dont have enough frames to make anything turn around.

And you probably think this a little wildcard of my own because I always use this advice, but I just belive in this so much I think everyone should try it. drop the freaking details. I dont understand how everyone keeps their sanity while animating with all that detail, make sillouethe animations first (if you are working with one more object, you can color code them to diference them, but still use sillouethes only), THEN add in all the detail and fancy knick-knacks, you'll be far less confused, and the core of your animation will be far,far more soid.

Offline FaeryShivers

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Happy Ufo Studios

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #15 on: October 08, 2005, 01:11:26 am
but in the end the comment itself could be done by anyone



So could "Add more AA" and "use selective outlining"

I completly agree, your point? I think they are all about as useless. You ask anyone I chat to and they'd confirm you I do not apreciate any of those comments. All of them, if not suggested for a very specific reason, are a total waste of time, because they suggest you spend extra time adding extra polish into a sprite "just because", and as we all know every pixelpiece could always be more polished, therefore  me all these are about like saying hey "make a better piece" only masked a little bit to fit the situation.



Everyone gives those types of comments at some point or another, and a lot of times they ARE called for. My point is you shouldn't be telling people not to make those comments at all. Just tell them to get more specific or give more than just that. It gives the wrong impression of what a critique is. I don't want to take up a bunch of Xanthiers thread here but now you're pointing out that my suggestion didn't work? He did something similar to what I said, but not quite (if you look he added more frames BEFORE my suggestion was posted.) I also think its funny how you basically in your last post said the exact thing I said to xanthier, yet my suggestion "obviously" doesn't work.

You shouldn't come into other peoples artwork threads who are looking for C+C  and tell other people what not to post in them.
You don't know if Xanthier likes those comments or not, let him speak for himself.
I personally like some of those comments as long as they are specific.

Offline Conzeit

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1448
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Camus
    • conzeit
    • View Profile
    • CONZEIT

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #16 on: October 08, 2005, 02:06:07 am
gah, I didnt mean your actual crit to him, I mean what you said about doing a lot of frames and cutting them down later. That was un-necesary though, I shoudlnt have said that, I apologize.

I see your point about me being overly negative for no reason now tho, yeah. that kind of comment can be used to do something useful, so it doesnt make sense to just tell him to not do it at all.

Quote
You don't know if Xanthier likes those comments or not, let him speak for himself.
I personally like some of those comments as long as they are specific.
thats kind of what I said, only I worder it  more negatively too =/ I kind of said, dont make them, unless they are the only way to fix a problem, you are more along the lines of make them only if they are the only way to fix a problem

this is getting kinda nasty tho, if I upset you with this post too, we better take it to pms.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2005, 05:16:24 pm by Camus »

Offline FaeryShivers

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Happy Ufo Studios

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #17 on: October 08, 2005, 04:27:58 am
Nah, I understand what you were saying Camus, I just think that it could be misinterpreted especially by someone
so new to art. But yes lets get out of Xanthiers thread with our trash before he beats us with a pointy stick x_x

Offline Peppermint Pig

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 495
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #18 on: October 08, 2005, 02:12:48 pm
Stop, you're both right...

The best solution now is for each person to demonstrate their method. I don't think there is a single solution for everyone. Until someone has been working on sprites for a very long time, it's important to make mistakes and test things. The Sals method relies also on adjusting frame rates, and that arguement holds less weight here. FaeryShivers is not out of line by suggesting the creation of additional frames. One can even blob the frames to save time. When your frame rate is set, this has to be considered for someone who's less sure of what the best 'key frame' is going to be. Everyone agrees that finding the best motion is the solution.

While AA animation is typically considered for subtle sub-pixel motion, it's a matter of incorporating AA/Shading as a means to obtain motion blur effects, which can help with fixed frames.

Offline AdamTierney

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 308
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Adam's Page

Re: Doom Mod death animation

Reply #19 on: October 10, 2005, 02:32:42 am
The Sals method relies also on adjusting frame rates, and that arguement holds less weight here. FaeryShivers is not out of line by suggesting the creation of additional frames.

Lurk lurk. Actually no, consistent framerate should always be used. If someone talks about using different frame rates, they're misinterpretting what I've mentioned. Animation is all about slow ins & outs, weight, timing & volume. Once you learn those four things, you're set. I didn't make any of that up, they're the time-tested principles of animation. And it's not about more or less frames, it's about where you put them. Slow ins & outs means not spacing the frames equally throughout the distance travelled, but rather using more frames for the pauses, and less frames for the fast and broad.

- Adam
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 02:34:17 am by AdamTierney »