AuthorTopic: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima  (Read 25531 times)

Offline Cow

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 04:26:40 am

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 05:07:32 am
personally, I think it is all relative to the individual. A person who doesn't look for the art in something will not see it, but those who do, will percieve it. It's easier to see art in things which intend to pull you towards it and make you think "why?"..

Offline Rydin

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 05:59:37 am
An artist who influences me a lot once said that all art is theft.  I feel one would have to be pretty ignorant not to see how much video games steal from movies...therefore videogames are art :P...... :lol:

In all seriousness though, I think video games CAN be art, it's just the fact that almost all of them aren't.  Art is usually made by one person, and pretty much every commercial video game is made by groups of at least 5, ranging to the hundreds.  This is why Feron was right; you can't compare Grand Theft Auto III to the Sistine Chapel, as one took hundreds of people, and the other, only one single person.

There still are games made by 1-2 people, and some of these games tend to be near art...anybody who has heard of Kenta Cho knows exactly what I'm talking about...  Games that double as art DO exist, its just very hard to find examples of it commercially, and I think the same holds true for most movies, too.  If you want some sound examples, look into some freeware games a bit: they're there.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

Offline Akzidenz

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 07:03:28 am
personally, I think it is all relative to the individual. A person who doesn't look for the art in something will not see it, but those who do, will percieve it. It's easier to see art in things which intend to pull you towards it and make you think "why?"..

Art is absolutely relative.. the difference here is that contemporary fine art (and for that matter, most forms of commercial art) is considered by - and presented to - the public as something which should be seen and appreciated as "art." Whereas video games are still absolutely seen by the public as a form of mindless entertainment. And that's one of the things that's preventing video games from growing - if the artists responsible are conscious of the fact that their work will not be seen as the art they intend it to be, and especially if they don't believe that the public is willing to accept any strong move in a new direction, they're limited in the worst way.
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Offline Helm

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 07:39:00 am
Art is whatproclaims itself to be art.

Offline Akzidenz

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #15 on: December 30, 2006, 08:05:49 am
Art is whatproclaims itself to be art.

What would you call a person who perceives a piece of non-art to be art, then?
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Offline Rydin

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #16 on: December 30, 2006, 08:06:46 am
A dadaist.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

Offline Akzidenz

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #17 on: December 30, 2006, 08:12:04 am
A dadaist.

Dadaists considered themselves artists at the highest level.. the "anti-artist" mentality was just a rebellion against the sort of contemporary art that was going on in the early 20th century. Which is really ironic, considering that the Dadaists knowingly (and later, towards the death of the movement, admittedly) imitated and were heavily influenced by other artists that were working during/before 1916 - the Futurists, especially.
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Offline AdamTierney

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #18 on: December 30, 2006, 09:12:17 am
You cant really compare Dali, Rembrant, Van Gogh and others to some metal gear solid screenshots.  I totally understand whats hes saying.  Game-art has a purpose, physical artworks are merely forms of expression.

That's a bit of a generalization. There are games out there that are absolutely a form of expression, with the purpose of expression first and foremost (if not the only concern of the artist). And there is 'art' that is created for an audience, to elicit a specific reaction of even produce a profit. Games are a medium, and mediums can't be defined by concepts as narrowing as audience or intent. You can make the assertion that 'most games' are this way, and 'most art' is this way, but it's not absolute regarding the medium. The same way cartoons aren't just for children, comics aren't just for adolescents, etc.

What would you call a person who perceives a piece of non-art to be art, then?

Why is it defined as non-art? You seem to imply that art is only art if the original artist considers it such, and I don't consider that to be the case. So I guess my own response to your question is that there is nothing that is, with absolute certainty, 'non-art'.

To be fair, Kojima is somewhat misconstruing Ebert's quote. Ebert was making the point that games shouldn't be considered art because there is choice and control on the part of the viewer/gamer - it is not a wholely, pre-decided medium. I don't personally believe that makes it non-art, in the same way that art installations are not invalidated by presenting the participant(s) with options. And bear in mind, Ebert was probably thinking Pac-Man when he said this, not Shadow of the Colossus, and might sing a different tune were he to actually invest some time into modern games. But he wasn't broadly putting the artform down in his original quote. He was just saying that since audience can influence the end product, he doesn't personally consider it art anymore.

Kojima too isn't discussing quality, but just motivation. He stresses the idea that people creating games are doing such to turn a profit, in order to please an audience and not create a personal labor of love. This is a pretty assumptive point of view (as I know plenty of game makers, specifically in the hobby community, who are making games for themselves with no public anticipation whatsoever). In fact, I just did preliminary design on a DS game that, if it happens, is a huge departure from what the licensor would expect, and fans of the license would expect, simply because I felt like taking this particular license in this particular direction, audience be damned. Does that make it art? I dunno. It's still licensed content and that really undercuts the artistry to me right there.

It's all pretty complex. I guess my stance is that broad generalizations on the subject usually stem from ignorance about games (Ebert) or cynicism/realism (Kojima). If someone working on a game considers what they're doing to be art, it is. If someone plays a game and they see art in it, there is. And the two are not mutually-dependant.

- Adam
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 09:39:44 am by AdamTierney »

Offline Filax_666

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #19 on: December 30, 2006, 10:04:50 am
Art is usually made by one person

Yeah, like that is true...I know a lot of great artists who do collaborations all the time and that doesn't mean they stopped making art when they joined. There are people who do most of their work along with someone else!

I'm not going to say anything about this now, for my opinion is not yet totally defined. I'll see where this goes to and maybe speak later...