AuthorTopic: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima  (Read 29939 times)

Offline Akzidenz

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #20 on: December 30, 2006, 10:27:01 am
Why is it defined as non-art? You seem to imply that art is only art if the original artist considers it such, and I don't consider that to be the case. So I guess my own response to your question is that there is nothing that is, with absolute certainty, 'non-art'.

I completely agree with you. I think our views on this are pretty much identical:

If someone working on a game considers what they're doing to be art, it is. If someone plays a game and they see art in it, there is. And the two are not mutually-dependant.

I'd been responding to Helm's post above mine - my interpretation of his comment was "art is defined by the artist," whereas I don't believe that to be true.

Ebert was making the point that games shouldn't be considered art because there is choice and control on the part of the viewer/gamer - it is not a wholely, pre-decided medium. I don't personally believe that makes it non-art, in the same way that art installations are not invalidated by presenting the participant(s) with options.

I think Ebert's reasoning is bizarre, if for no other reason than the fact that he himself is a film critic/buff. Film and music (especially since the dawn of rock n' roll) are both (at their best) forms of "high," non-commercial art, but they demand a deeper connection from their viewer. Personally - although I have yet to see a game that really makes use of the medium to its fullest - I feel the medium of the video game takes that concept a step further. Demanding interaction from the audience in order to even experience the art is.. incredibly powerful. The limitation is that video games are a medium used solely for commercial art, but like other good commercial art they have the ability to leave a lasting impact on their audience.

I mean, shit.. anyone who's played the Final Fantasy series past IV or so has been trained to fear the idea of superpowers/supergovernments because of the dangers that a corrupt superpower presents. People who play MMORPGs, especially those who play excessively, are living their lives in a pseudo-anarchaic political and social environment. Even games like Katamari or Loco Roco have lasting impressions on (at the very least) the subconscious.
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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #21 on: December 30, 2006, 10:59:04 am
I mean, shit.. anyone who's played the Final Fantasy series past IV or so has been trained to fear the idea of superpowers/supergovernments because of the dangers that a corrupt superpower presents.

I agree.  There is a certain art to brain washing and manipulation.



There are many different types of art, some appeal to your ears, others to your eyes, some to your touch...throw them all together and add a bit of viewer-interaction, and you have yourself a video game.  I say it's art, argueably not an accepted form of high art, as say painting, or composing, but indeed art.
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Offline snake

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #22 on: December 30, 2006, 01:53:30 pm
I have no doubt that video games are art.

Games is the mixture of every "traditional" art type with the ability to controll it and experience it. In some aspects you could argue that games are still considered a tool, or simple entertainment. I feel this can't be entirely true as classical music were made for specific functions, but now are highly regarded works of art. Same with ancient pottery (as mentioned.) The notion that it has been made by more than one person can't be right, as most of todays greatest monuments were made by hundreds, maybe thousands of people. Think of the great pyramids, Sagrada Familia (and still in progress). Even in the case where there was one man/woman giving orders and presenting his/her vision, isn't that what a director does? A combined piece is still something on it's own.

I reckon this is split into two questions. What you regard as art, and what the art-institutions regard as art. In many cases the general public will change it's view on art once it becomes official, when an institution comes to the conclusion that a certain method of expression is to be regarded as something fantastic on it's own. I doubt everyone in the world knows why Mona Lisa is to be regarded so highly, regardless if it should or not.

When it comes to games, it's common to only compare the medium to certain games, putting everything in the same box. Paintings have sub-categories, do games? Is Pac man the same as Fifa 2006, Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft or Solitaire? In most RPG's you have a story to tell, music and aesthetics that could in some ways send a message like a painting. What about freeroaming games with no ending or goal? They don't have a story, but have messages and an altered reality of yourself that do create an emotion or trail of thought. But what about the really small internett or board games? Can everything be regarded as the same thing?

Offline Rox

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #23 on: December 30, 2006, 02:59:09 pm
A video game is not a piece of art to me. Aspects of it may be. The gameplay may be so balanced and masterfully designed, it's an art compared to everything else. The graphics are obviously artistish. Music and sometimes sound direction is audial art. Storytelling is an art. But the game itself is just a game. Interactive entertainment. A collection of aspects that may or may not be considered art, formed into a final product that ISN'T art. Yeh.

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #24 on: December 30, 2006, 06:05:31 pm
I visit gamesareart.com a lot so I personally got fed up with this argument and dont really care anymore.

its pointless, there's no point to realizing wether it's art or not.

 it is what it is, calling it art would only serve to give us status quo.

What kojima meant was the game as itself he doesnt see as art, he sees it as a place for art to live. *shrugs* whatever suits him.

Offline sharprm

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #25 on: December 31, 2006, 12:44:12 pm
My definition of Art: Something that isn't useful and rich people will pay alot for to show off their 'taste'. So games aren't 'art'. They are
a great way to spend your time, and they can be made by very talented people, but I don't think they should be called art. If you include everything that takes skill and expresses something as art, you might as well say that the dubbing of 'funniest home videos' was art, which
would be silly wouldn't it?
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #26 on: December 31, 2006, 02:52:30 pm
It sure is art; have you ever played Final Fantasy 7, 8, 9, 10? Or ironically, Metal Gear Solid (1)?
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Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #27 on: December 31, 2006, 09:58:31 pm
I think games are art. If you make a piece with your heart, it's art. Only money-spinners are not art. If, say, Helm, made a video game cutscene pixel and printed it on canvas, I would buy it as art. Art is the passion and sweat of the artist. Therefore, if a game is made by a person or persons working from the heart, it's art. Art is in the eye of the viewer.
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Offline Stwelin

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #28 on: December 31, 2006, 10:47:24 pm
If, say, Helm, made a video game cutscene pixel and printed it on canvas, I would buy it as art. Art is the passion and sweat of the artist.

If you read the article, Hideo Kojima says that there is no doubt that there is art in video games. What he is saying is that he does not consider the actual production as a piece of artwork.  As he said, he considers himself as a owner of a 'museum' in which the art is showcased, however, the museum itself is not a piece of art (don't bring up architecture, it has nothing to with the analogy.), mearly a shell.

Offline Rox

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Re: Video game is not art - Hideo Kojima

Reply #29 on: December 31, 2006, 10:54:59 pm
Metal Gear Solid? What does that have to do with anything? It's a masterpiece of a game with a brilliant story and execution and easy to grasp game mechanics. But that's it, isn't it? It's a freaking good game. There's nothing artsy about it. Oh, in fact, let's see what Dictionary.com's definition of the word is!


Quote
   1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
   2.
         1. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
         2. The study of these activities.
         3. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
   3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
   4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
   5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
   6.
         1. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
         2. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
   7.
         1. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
         2. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).
   8.
         1. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
         2. Artful contrivance; cunning.
   9. Printing. Illustrative material.


Yeah... In my definition, since a long time back, everything that requires doing or making, can be considered an art (for a year, I wrote down a slogan, "Living Is An Art" on all my school books), but the creations themselves shouldn't be considered pieces of art, in my opinion. So, I'd say games still aren't art.

Or maybe... my definition lies rather in the mindset of the creator... Some sorts of music are art, but not all. Nothing that's on national radio nowdays can be considered art. But Beethoven sure made art. And I guess Jazz is some sort of abstract stuff. Because it's just barely music. Eh, complicated stuff.