AuthorTopic: Concept Art for Square-style RPG  (Read 4450 times)

Offline silverhk11

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Concept Art for Square-style RPG

on: September 22, 2017, 09:22:47 pm
Not gonna lie, I'm pretty new at this and terrified to post up because I see a lot of really awesome artists and critiquers up here, but at the same time, that's one of the reasons why I want to join the community, and maybe someday I'll be good enough to contribute back.

I'm working on putting together some concept art for a game in the style of 16-bit Square titles, specifically Secret of Mana. Here's the first composite I've put together so far. I'd love feedback on a few things, including the character models and scene composition. It's supposed to be the interior of a train car. Very minor point - I know the tiling got messed up on the floor so boards are not falling properly, but not bothering to fix it at the moment.

Thanks for all suggestions in advance!



Also, sorry for just a link, but I can't seem to figure out how to display it directly and I can't find that information in any of the help/instruction posts. :(

« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 11:03:59 pm by Ryumaru »

Offline eishiya

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 09:35:55 pm
It looks very bland. What sort of mood are you going for? Warm and inviting? Cold and hostile? Tidy, grungy? Spacious, cramped?

Just because wood is "brown" and metal is "grey" doesn't mean you should actually use those colours. Take into account the light source(s) in the scene and the mood you want for that environment. Make the environment communicate more than just "this is a room".


The characters have a lot of single-pixel... folds? highlights? It's hard to tell and just looks noisy. Try to keep the single-pixel details limited to easily identifiable ones such as eyes and buttons, and use larger shapes for potentially-ambiguous details such as folds. If there's no room for a detail to read clearly, then don't include it - it's better that things look simple but readable than complex but noisy/unreadable.


Also, you'll probably get more feedback if you embed the image into your post using IMG tags and the image's URL:
Code: [Select]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/jvERroa.png[/img]You may also want to post the image without pre-zooming and without the grid lines, so that people can critique and edit the piece more easily.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:38:47 pm by eishiya »

Offline silverhk11

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 10:41:08 pm
I think I fixed the pre-zooming and gridlines issues, but when I try your format, it just leaves a blank space in my post. What might I be doing wrong?

Have some questions about the other parts of your post later, gotta run atm. I'll try your formatting right below this.

Offline eishiya

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 10:42:17 pm
Your image isn't working because you're using the wrong URL. You need the URL of the image, not the page it's on.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 11:06:41 pm
I just edited your post to show the image with the [img] tag :] A usually fool proof way to do it is to right click on an image and choose " copy image address" and paste it in between the tags.

Offline silverhk11

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 03:24:50 am
Thanks for the fix, I get it now! :)

To your point about the room, I guess I'm not totally sure what I want to communicate, just kind of trying to create the inside of a train car at night haha. So I made it dark. Light sourcing is definitely a challenge for me in terms of how it affects the color scheme, I tried to do some of that on the crates, but I essentially just made it a lighter brown, not sure exactly how to alter the colors. 

As far as the characters go, one thing I noticed as I studied Square sprites is that many of them get extremely confusing if you try to zoom in and look at the pixel detail, but when you zoom out they come together very clearly and cleanly, so I was was working to imitate that style. I'm not sure if that's a stylistic thing or if it's just considered bad technique nowadays (or frankly, if I'm just not nailing it). I've read a lot about the different ways to segment pixel art, and Square just does it very differently on their 16-bit characters.

Offline astraldata

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 11:57:03 pm
Glad you went ahead and posted it. I was where you were at one time, and it took me posting, doing weekly challenges, and reading lots of other people's topics before I got the hang of everything I needed. The weekly challenges were the most helpful for me though, in terms of execution -- it made me pull my head out of my own work to see it the way others would see it, not to mention the 'challenge' part teaching me how to manage colors.

Speaking of managing colors, Square did this really well -- the reason the sprites are near-unreadable when you zoom in close is because they pack a lot of detail in a small space with those colors. The reason they read well is because Square put in a lot of trust to the CRT televisions that these games would be played on. The CRT's would blur the pixels together and you'd essentially be 'painting' with light because the CRT's would naturally blend them and make them look more organic, so you never really saw what the squares themselves looked like -- you'd just be 'painting' a picture!

Nowadays this is rarely the case because everything is so HD that a blurry pixel is considered a negative thing. Even in pixel art for games on the PC, it's rare to find this kind of 'detail' packed into a single sprite because it tends to look muddy or jaggy unless zoomed way out to where you can barely see the pixels (OR you can use a nice CRT filter possibly? ;D )

Anyway, C+C:

Your characters don't look bad at all form-wise. You've pretty much got the look. The guy leaning against the wall is a nice touch too! The only real issue is your color choices -- you need some sense of hue-shifting (i.e. shifting toward the color of the light source for highlights and shifting toward the color of shadows for the shadows)

The biggest and most glaring issue with this besides the lack of detail or direction in the environment (relative to the size of the screen!) is the washed out colors and the abundant over-use of dithering!

Tiles can be tricky in general (due to their modularity) and tend to be the bane of my existence in regards to pixel art, but they follow *most* of the same rules that characters do -- with some exceptions:

Firstly, the perspective is orthographic (that is, depth is not really depth but height, depending on the overhead angle you choose), whereas characters can just about be at any angle and the viewer won't care.

Second, the characters MUST stand out, so tileset colors and details should *never* overpower the characters. Therefore you had the right idea to keep the BG somewhat desaturated, but at a certain point, "desaturation" == "uninteresting", so it is a constant balancing act between characters and their BG tiles!

Finally, you NEVER want stray (single) pixels in a BG tile because it draws the viewer's attention (think of how people are naturally able to see faces in ordinary things such as an electrical outlet or a car's grill and headlights) -- a stray pixel is like "hey, there might be a face over here!" and your eye is drawn to it -- and this is why extensive dithering is a no-no, /especially/ on repeating tiles. It's distraction city.


In regards to THESE specific tiles, you might want to make some kind of portholes to the outside world on the train (most trains have windows to prevent claustrophobia in its passengers) and perhaps some other bits and bobs laying about.

You'll want to also use some blues in the gray walls and purples in the red floors to show that there's some semblance of night outside (assuming you put windows in, or if there's ambient light bouncing around ANYWHERE in the train).

Finally, you'll want to establish a light source. It's clear you've got a Chrono Trigger 'inspiration' there, but even this game had a variety of shades to indicate the light on the floor and walls. Go look at one of the maps of Crono's room both before and after opening the window in his room. That should give you a hint of how to light an area with tiles.

Also, one final note about 16bit tiles -- even though many games appeared to use them as 16x16 squares, most tiles were actually 8x8 and worked into one another to help define things like shadows, borders, rims of objects, and other smaller bits and bobs hiding in the shadows. You should see the Star Ocean "commercial critique" thread here on the forums to see some of the tilesets they used in that. It should give you an idea of how these sorts of tilesets are setup.

Hopefully this helps! Good luck -- and great taste in games dude! :)
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Offline silverhk11

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 06:02:13 pm
Love the feedback overall! Thanks for the response. The CRT thing is interesting and explains some of why they did it that way, but I still feel a little iffy on that being a reason not to still imitate that style. Maybe I don't read these forums enough, but I've never heard anyone go back to Chrono Trigger on modern devices and say, "Dang, this game is ugly." In fact, quite the opposite! Usually people talk about how well the style has held up overall, and a lot of the sites I referenced to learn it still hold them up as ideal references. So I'm torn about how to proceed then, because this is a style I really enjoy and appreciate, in terms of whether to shift to a more modern approach to spriting.

"The only real issue is your color choices -- you need some sense of hue-shifting (i.e. shifting toward the color of the light source for highlights and shifting toward the color of shadows for the shadows). You'll want to also use some blues in the gray walls and purples in the red floors to show that there's some semblance of night outside." - This is still very confusing to me as a non-artist. Is there a good source to read on how to use color scaling in this way more effectively? There are some purples in the floors, for example, but obviously not enough.

"Finally, you'll want to establish a light source. Go look at one of the maps of Crono's room both before and after opening the window in his room. That should give you a hint of how to light an area with tiles." - did the tiniest bit of this with the crates, but I'll go back to the old masters again for some more inspiration. :)  This is pretty much of a first draft of everything, and lighting is on the list of things to study still, so thanks for pointing out a good source.

The 8x8 tiles is something I'm working toward, but in this case I'm going to be using 16x16 as a base for most of the things in this scene and then modifying them into different 16x16 tiles. Only one or two places on here where I did that, but I've definitely seen the value in switching to an 8x8 approach eventually. I'm not as fluid as I need to be when composing scenes yet (obviously as this is my first one ever), but I'll get there eventually.

Again, thanks for the notes! Still not 100% sure how to handle the washed out effect...hmmm. Will have to take a step back while I reconsider my global approach to it anyway I guess.

Offline astraldata

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 08:10:30 am
No worries man -- I didn't realize you weren't as far along with pixel art as you seemed to be based on the characters you posted up there.

Also I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but nowhere did I mean to imply that Chrono Trigger was an ugly game these days. I only meant that the purpose in which they put so many colors together in such tiny spaces was a rare (and forgotten) one in these days of HD digital displays. By no means did I intend to imply they somehow lost their charm, even on a PC screen either. Trust me, I love me some CT. I don't know anyone who's played the game who doesn't love everything about it.

Anyway, back to the C+C:

The biggest issue with the "washed out" look I mentioned (even if you did hue-shifting) is that your shapes don't have much volume because they don't have any sense of light source or ambient lighting or anything giving them genuine "form" to the viewer outside of outlines. Even if you copied the color palette from CT color-index by color-index, your train would still appear washed out due to this, as its environments have some creative desaturation in them to set the tone/mood of the game's overall feel.

You mainly need some ambient light and some specularity or highlights in the forms to help give them volume. The environments in CT are a great place to look for inspiration on that.

As far as color, it all depends on what sort of mood/tone you're going for and how hard you want to work if you want something more realistic-looking. I personally think that CT is a great inspiration for style -- as well as pretty much any Square SNES game back in the day -- because there isn't enough of that style in pixel art these days, and more people need to be exposed to it. So keep doing what you're doing, and don't let anyone deter you from it -- including me.

The sad thing is, that art is hard to study when you don't understand how to use pixels for more cartoony or simplified things first. That being said, if you learn how to do something like in the "Little Witch Academia" thread in this forum, and get really good at understanding how to overlay AA (anti-aliasing) on larger sprites, you'll understand why there seem to be random pixels everywhere in the smaller Square sprites -- they are just doing a more compact version of AA, using the same "layering" principles that painters use to block out forms, except in pixels, you don't have to worry about brush angle or line width -- you are simply blocking in colors and, bam, you're done. However, basic rules of art still apply -- for example, a great, readable, silhouette is a must. That thread I mentioned is a great example of a silhouette that is both interesting and readable.

One final note about color -- gray is a wildcard color in pixel art. It is used only to blend between colors and take on the color of nearby pixels, or desaturate other nearby saturated colors (without actually desaturating them), so its heavy-use in your image above is also quite a large contributing factor (in addition to the volume and lighting/color issues) to the washed out look. Plus, you just need something to break up the floor a little more -- cracks, spider-webs, barrels, trash, etc. etc. -- to help keep *it* from being the focus and draw the viewer's eye to the place where it needs to be.

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Offline silverhk11

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Re: Concept Art for Square-style RPG

Reply #9 on: September 27, 2017, 03:27:35 am
Awesome thoughts, thanks again. Very grateful...now it appears I have some new terms to learn. :)

And yeah, I'm literally brand new at this with not a speck of art practice the majority of my life to date.  Trying to pick up a new craft for fun so I actually have something to contribute to game design beyond just the mechanics stuff I usually focus on, so every word you use is pretty much a google search. Which is great, really, it really helps to be pointed in the right direction!

There's no question a lot more detail is required to generally make the space more interesting too, I more or less just wanted to get an idea of if I'm on the right track. If I'm on an ok track, then it's just a matter of learning and getting better. Definitely need to look up some examples of how people do metal. I didn't really even want to use metal on the walls, just was kind of lost as to what else to do in the immediate sense and decided to experiment.