AuthorTopic: [WIP] Woman (naked)  (Read 7273 times)

Offline Satsume

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Re: [WIP] Woman (naked)

Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 08:30:40 am
i don't mind Night :) it's cool to see many edit for understading my mistakes.
ps: your edit is awesome :O
Anyway in lineart step my work doesn't seems how suck like the final step, maybe i've failed to see =/
And mhm some times i begin pixel with stratch/sketchs (how pixelpiledriver did) and some times start with putting piece of colors, how you describe.
Trying to do better in my next works! thanks to all, really  ;)

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: [WIP] Woman (naked)

Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 11:29:25 am
Some great edits here. It's kind of interesting to see when people draw faces, because they'll often mess up proportions based on how much attention certain features (e.g. eyes, nose and mouth) takes up in their mind. They'll shorten everything above the eyebrows, for example, because they're not hardwired to pay much attention to that part of the head. But people are hardwired to pay attention to people's eyes, so they draw them bigger.

My two cents on this topic:

"Right" might apply to idealized photorealism and how everything is drawn "idealistically right". However in reality there are lots of tiny and not so tiny differences in faces which just give the person a certain look and that's usually quite far apart from what the classical idealized notes on anatomy tell us.
Let's say Loomis' Figure - compared to a "real" skeleton/human it's strongly idealized in some aspects.

While unintentionally shortening everything above the eyebrows might make a Loomis figure odd, it could be fitting for a caveman-character and clearly underlines that he won't have a lot of intelligence (just sayin)
Same goes for the eyes - drawing bigger eyes can lead to another impression of a character than having small eyes - just considering why most anime styles tend to have huge eyes and no noses.

It's something I struggled a lot with, but limiting yourself on the "right" proportions which are "idealized" can definitely lead to very boring and exchangable cast of characters with very less overall diversity - it just makes one archetype so to say, while for character design diversity is key.

It's a mighty tool to know a lot of the proportions to each other and be able to cross-check them, that one exactly knows where he/she is exaggerating and where not.
However correct proportions and photorealism can get an end in itself if it comes down that the goal is to add a lot of character to a human figure rather than a realistic depiction of a subject.

Getting the meaning across can be handled much more effective with a less realistic style, which just emphasizes on the details one needs to communicate and exaggerate those to make it even clearer.
Because the more realistic all gets the more it will be received as realistic and the less realistic it is the more can get broken regarding to proportions and flow of the pose - then it's just a matter of the right balance of the level of stylization the style one goes for has.

A lot of cramped in  detail also can turn out ugly if it's something a particular person don't likes.
Let's just say I dislike skinny women (which is of course a highly personal opinion) and then I look at nights edit where the ribs are drawn in. The ribs are actually there in reality but only if the overall body fat is really low - so I will dislike it because I dislike that type of realistic figure. If the ribs weren't in a t all that question might never come up.
The more important question the artist should ask is what does he gain from drawing them in if the goal is not just illustrate the detail for the sake of detail, but in order to communicate a well-thought-out character.

To pull off those considerations of stylization really effectively one needs to have a strong understanding of realism, while it might never be as explicitely shown in the final stylized illustration.

The goal here clearly wasn't realism at all. But Satsume, you might really benefit from doing some realistic studies and applying some of the observations you make there to your stylized work.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 11:37:21 am by Cyangmou »
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Offline Daimoth

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Re: [WIP] Woman (naked)

Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 01:50:52 pm
While unintentionally shortening everything above the eyebrows might make a Loomis figure odd, it could be fitting for a caveman-character and clearly underlines that he won't have a lot of intelligence (just sayin)
Same goes for the eyes - drawing bigger eyes can lead to another impression of a character than having small eyes - just considering why most anime styles tend to have huge eyes and no noses.

It's something I struggled a lot with, but limiting yourself on the "right" proportions which are "idealized" can definitely lead to very boring and exchangable cast of characters with very less overall diversity - it just makes one archetype so to say, while for character design diversity is key.

I prefer fantastical or stylized anatomies even when the subjects are rendered realistically. And I mean stylized expressively, not just empty tweaks. Frazetta's was great at that specifically. And while I'm yapping (woot tangent), why do so many artists create generically beautiful women? There are idiosyncracies in every person's tastes, after all. It's the same generic beauty shopping mall mannequins have.

Broadly speaking, discipline is obviously a good thing. But turning oneself into a human camera is a great way to sterilize your art. People will be impressed, sure, but they won't care . And that's what ultimately matters, I think. Obviously this doesn't apply to every field. If you're doing conceptual art for Boeing or something, by all means, be as technically precise as possible.

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: [WIP] Woman (naked)

Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 04:36:10 pm
This spoiler will derail the thread, but take it as rambling.

Frazetta's was great at that specifically...

Broadly speaking, discipline is obviously a good thing. But turning oneself into a human camera is a great way to sterilize your art. People will be impressed, sure, but they won't care . And that's what ultimately matters, I think. Obviously this doesn't apply to every field. If you're doing conceptual art for Boeing or something, by all means, be as technically precise as possible.

I think that Frazetta's work not necessarily is overall photorealistic - there is an influence of realism, that for sure.
However while a lot of the work  is realistically renerded imo the overall proportions used are sometimes much more reminiscent of idealized American Action Comic figures. Even the strong placative style with broadly used black areas and how clearly cut some compositions are underline this impression.
Is his work realistic enough to be believable? I think so

While if you look at Vallejo it's a lot more realistic, much more detailled and a lot more exact - it's also going much more in the direction of photorealism.
Vallejo seems to come from a completely different perspective than Franzetta - there are very fine gradients (Franzetta doesnt have that "quality" at the same level in his works - he just uses simpler gradients and it's also fine) and very realistic proportions and little details (but Vallejo needs exactly those fine gradients for his richness in details)

In terms of subjects and color choice those 2 artists seem to be very similar to me, but if it comes to their technical approaches and value priorities not at all.
And it's also hard to say which style I ultimatively prefer, because both are very nicely balanced in terms of techniques and how they are used.

Fact for pixel art is that it doesn't support fine gradients.
By having limited colors (in whatever form) the quality of any gradient will suffer. Ultimately limited colors cause bands.
There are 2 ways to avoid banding:
-either using tons of colors that the gradients are so smooth that the banding will rather look like a gradient
or
-to use as few colors that you carefully can control the outcome of the banding and shape the cluster edges effectively.

Ultimatively both is possible with pixel art, but making fine gradients is a huge timesink and that's why we see this quality quite rarely in pa. And it's also a lot more efficient and easier to pull this technique off with another medium.

Pixel art further limits one on line quality and placement, which is further bad for realism. Here it might also be much smarter to go in the more expressive direction, just because there the question with a low resolution is rather "do i ifll in the pixel at the left or the pixel at the right" but for very realistic depictions you need subpixels in the middle that everything looks good.

That mindset of me is the outcome of a very long experimenting process where I intentionally tried to break a lot of those limitations.

As mod I ultimatively have to say that we should go back to discuss Satsume's art in this thread - however if anyone would be interested in discussing the spoiler topic further just pm me and I will start a thread with the quotes from here in the general discussion.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 04:41:17 pm by Cyangmou »
"Because the beauty of the human body is that it hasn't a single muscle which doesn't serve its purpose; that there's not a line wasted; that every detail of it fits one idea, the idea of a man and the life of a man."

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