AuthorTopic: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)  (Read 10636 times)

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #30 on: March 02, 2015, 02:33:47 am
Look up some images of skeletons, it'll help. The main thing you're doing wrong and I guess I didn't explain very well is that the line which represents the shoulders and the hips is sort of an imaginary line that connects each socket. In the case of the hips it's a pretty simple representation of the pelvis but the shoulders are more complicated, you want to really be representing the tilt created by the spine but you can also move your shoulders independently of this (the extra movement comes from the clavicle and the scapula). In real terms the big problem is you have your "femurs" meeting at a point where in reality they never do, this makes it look like her crotch is way lower than it should and her hips too low and thin. And yes there are two major masses in the head, the cranium and the mandible (jaw).

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #31 on: March 02, 2015, 03:16:08 am
Ryumaru, thanks for clarifying.  The key word I think is natural.  I think it'll click more when I study and try to draw anatomy closely.  I got some great iphone apps that show awesome rotatable skeletons and muscles.  it'd be superb if it allowed mechanical motion to see how things move though

32, I think it is just hard for me to understand your guidance at my level.

I'll focus especially tomorrow on studying the hips and shoulders.  i probably should cut back on the forums until i advance a little in anatomy since the forums are about improving as a pixel artist  :-X

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #32 on: March 02, 2015, 03:35:43 am
Sorry if it's a bit confusing. Have a look at this pose. In this instance his shoulders are level, but both are raised so you get a u shape. You need to take into account both things as one tells you where the shoulders are and one tells you which way the torso is tilted.

Right now you've drawn the lines coming down from the neck but they should be sort of coming out from the v of the neck (in 3d space it would also be half way deep into the body), you can think of it like a 3rd segment to the arm if it helps.

Put simply with the legs you currently have them both emerging from the same place like a /\ shape whereas there should be a space between their origins like /\
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 03:37:25 am by 32 »

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #33 on: March 04, 2015, 04:23:37 pm
I tried to improve the anatomy once more.  Perhaps the changes aren't dramatic enough though.  And I still am confused about the legs and pelvis, as in the current pose and perspective, there will be more of a V where legs hit the pelvis?  Areas I tried to fix the (our right) shoulder, the legs and proprtions, and the neck and head position as well as how the neck relates to the shoulders.  Just switched from mousepad to an intuos pen tablet.  It is a lil hard to use currently :P

>>




are there any solutions so the hands upper arms and hands don't get so lost in all of the camo and torso elements?  It doesn't appear to hugely affect the sprite, but I'm wondering if there are better ways
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 10:39:16 pm by Friend »

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #34 on: March 05, 2015, 12:01:20 am
Looking good, love the camo ;D. Anatomy wise it's getting there but this hips are still a problem area. Simply put, no, they would never appear as a v from this angle. Have a look at this. That space between the two joints is important. Thing is the lower body looks anatomically correct, it's just too low in relation to the torso.



The red line there is what looks like the anatomically correct hips to me. If you cut the legs up to my red line and moved that line over where you've drawn the hips you'd find it looks far more accurate (though the crotch would need to go down a bit).

Also your head is still too small and round, from this angle the head is more of a tall, rounded rectangle than a circle.

In relation to losing the hands that's because of your silhouette, generally speaking you want to make sure parts don't overlap other parts, this should really be taken into account much earlier when you're choosing the pose and the angle. The pose should be clear even if you removed all the detail and changed the image into a silhouette.

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #35 on: March 05, 2015, 12:42:41 am
yea, the original attempt was atrocious.  Hey, this is good news!  I can actually see that now :)  Has to be a good sign  :lol:

Maybe tomorrow I will feel the same way about the anatomy in my current version, because yes, right now I do not see it in the slightest, even with the hips.  In fact, the hips look too high to me rather than too low. 

And yes, the head is still funky, but I did not really work with the head yet, so that I can see is a bit too small and yes, will not be a ball :)

About the rule with the non-overlap, what a boring rule!  ::)  I will be sure to break that one constantly :)

Also, I really appreciate the help, and I'm really putting all of my effort into it... I wish there was more I could give back in this situation...On pixel joint I can help out somewhat those just starting, but here I feel like I can't really do anything but take and not give. 

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #36 on: March 05, 2015, 02:18:57 am
Problem is you've built the current version on top of that skeleton and it's very clear that the problem carried over to my eye.

I think there is some confusion is coming from the difference between hips as in the hip JOINTS and hips as in the widest part of the lower body. I'm talking about the joints and I think you're talking about (and drawing in the skeleton) the "hips". Though I think those hips are pretty well placed on your current image, If you squish the area between the belt and the crotch and pull the legs up you'll probably solve some problems.

Silhouette awareness is obviously not a rule but it is one of the most powerful tools you have to create clear poses, space and negative space is something that should constantly be on your mind. If you're going to break it you should be aware of how it's effecting readability. You can combat overlap issues by making sure the values between the overlapping objects are distinct or with outlines etc. Right now your silhouette is pretty confused around the overlapping arm and it's hard to tell what's going on with both the arm and the jacket as a result. I don't think the jacket would be sitting back that far unless she's in the process of spinning around or in a very strong wind. May I suggest on the next one to do a nude? Clothes are going to make it harder to spot mistakes.

No worries, glad you're finding it at least somewhat useful :D you're definitely getting rapidly better. Your pixel tech is good, I'm sure plenty of the newer people around here would appreciate any advice :y:

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Re: thoughts on a "finished piece" (C+C)

Reply #37 on: March 05, 2015, 02:19:37 pm
Problem is you've built the current version on top of that skeleton and it's very clear that the problem carried over to my eye.

I think there is some confusion is coming from the difference between hips as in the hip JOINTS and hips as in the widest part of the lower body. I'm talking about the joints and I think you're talking about (and drawing in the skeleton) the "hips". Though I think those hips are pretty well placed on your current image, If you squish the area between the belt and the crotch and pull the legs up you'll probably solve some problems.

Silhouette awareness is obviously not a rule but it is one of the most powerful tools you have to create clear poses, space and negative space is something that should constantly be on your mind. If you're going to break it you should be aware of how it's effecting readability. You can combat overlap issues by making sure the values between the overlapping objects are distinct or with outlines etc. Right now your silhouette is pretty confused around the overlapping arm and it's hard to tell what's going on with both the arm and the jacket as a result. I don't think the jacket would be sitting back that far unless she's in the process of spinning around or in a very strong wind. May I suggest on the next one to do a nude? Clothes are going to make it harder to spot mistakes.

No worries, glad you're finding it at least somewhat useful :D you're definitely getting rapidly better. Your pixel tech is good, I'm sure plenty of the newer people around here would appreciate any advice :y:

Im finding the help extremely useful really.  It just happens it takes me a day or two to process the help to the point where I can begin to see it xD  In fact, I think I saw the problem last night before bed.  I think how I have the hips place currently, it would be very uncomfortable to be in the given pose.. Her balance to me seemed leaning backwards rather than slightly forwards, which would be really weird to have such an aggressive pose with the balance shifting back.  It'd hurt..

I did a very very quick and mindless edit of simply repositioning the hips until it looked better to me.  I didn't really focus on trying to understand the underlying anatomy, since you're right, it is really hard to see it with all of the clothes and textures in the way.  Anyway, even moving the legs around mindlessly gave me clues into what I need to train my eye to see anatomy that functions.  I suppose stuff like proportion and correct forms can come later.  Right now I feel my anatomy mistakes actually create dysfunctional models and poses.  I will go completely nude next time  :D

Anyway, I think if it is not "there" that at least a simple change helped it a bit.  I also increased the height of the head, which should when I get into pixeling it give more than just the cranium.