AuthorTopic: What about attitude?  (Read 3753 times)

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

What about attitude?

on: May 09, 2014, 09:05:51 pm
Is any kind of attitude justified when criticizing?
Pixelation has always been a place of raw criticism, usually without any sugarcoating. But in certain recent threads there has been a lot of friction and some try to explain it by emotions getting in the way of objective discussion, but are we really that objective?
When you criticize it's easy to exaggerate to get a point across and as an artist there has always been things that irk me with certain aesthetics, making certain issues more annoying than others. Yet a lot of people here seem to think they are completely devoid of emotion and any emotions are brought in by the person reading the criticism.

I think one of the dark sides of this forum is elitism, I have no problem imagining that a lot of criticism fill a need of the person criticizing, which is too be right and show others how right you are. Mostly because I've felt those tendencies myself, but that also means I'm looking at this through tinted glasses, so I can only see this from my own perspective.
But when I try to read between the lines in some criticism it does seem a bit hostile.

I think a lot of people are also intimidated by this kind of approach because it seems defensive,  you're avoiding any emotional investment and expressions, so you don't have anything to lose on that front, yet the person posting their art usually feel extremely exposed and have put a lot of emotions into their work.

Offline Tijjer

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #1 on: May 09, 2014, 10:18:42 pm
Well...I don't feel as if theres any elitism or attitudes.  For example when everyone was helping me with my realistic charmander sprite I felt no attitude at all, just helpful tips and edits to set me on the right path!  ;D  The only time I've ever seen elitism is when I used to play L4D2 (such a**holes).  We also must realize its the internet, its rather hard to display emotions without the use of emoticons so its quite common for certain attitudes and emotions to end up flawed and misjudged.  Meanwhile I'll advise that voice in your head to talk at a more netural tone  :lol:

Offline cels

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 380
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/32715.htm
    • View Profile

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #2 on: May 09, 2014, 11:01:34 pm
Honestly, I do think this community has issues (as all communities do), but elitism isn't one of them. Compared to what you see elsewhere on the internet, the ratio of constructive criticism to unconstructive negativity on this forum is rather exemplary. I agree, some people tend to skip the sugar coating and be rather cautious with praise, but... that's alright. I don't need someone to tell me that my work is "awesome" if they take the time to do a 20 minute edit to help me, with no reward what so ever. That's good enough.

If anything, I find it rather astonishing how some extraordinarily talented people still find the motivation to help newcomers who don't know the first thing about art, let alone pixel art.

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 11:29:22 pm
Well I have no doubt that elitism exists here, I have experienced it in the IRC chat (not directed at anyone who was present, but still).
What I'm concerned about is how much it affects the way we express criticism, or how much we let it affect our criticism.

Have you ever read a thread and become increasingly annoyed at how a new member disregards criticism and speaks as if it doesn't apply or just think they know best?
I have and I've also felt somewhat pleased every time a pixelation veteran has come in and set them straight..

I don't think we are neutral and emotionless, because the more someone seems to resist criticism, the more relentless the criticism seems to get.

Offline RAV

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 293
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Blackbox Voxel Tool

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #4 on: May 10, 2014, 06:17:00 am
I think vets feel besieged from both sides: people complaining that they get no crits, people complaining that they get too much crits. I guess there is that feeling that you want to get it right and do good, but no matter what you do is bad. If you just took your time to write what you believe is the best possible advice, then a common phrase like "uh, but that wasn't what I wanted to know... thx anyway, try-hard", coupled with a certain selectivity, sure can read provocative; makes you look like an ignorant asshole for your help, to which you then naturally feel the urge to explain why "hey I'm not the ignorant asshole, you are!". etc. Ya know, "no crit"-complains and "over crit"-complains are troublesome just the same, but at least on the first you didn't waste your own time, you just watch it die down. But also, there's that emotional twist, where you see a newbie do the kind of mistakes and has the wrong mindset, just like you did and had so long ago, where you wished someone told you back then as straightforward as possible; and now you're basically trying to set things alright by arguing with that person as if it was your younger self, and get frustrated that this "you" doesn't understand, and that's where your care comes from. And then there's that phenomenon, even the best have one of those days where they maybe slip a little in a sentence, and when they do, it sure is getting made into a generalized definition of their character, and that feels unfair, as if all the better times are instantly forgotten, or like, when you're doing really good it stays relatively "unrewarded", but if you're doing not so nice, it gets dispropotionally "punished".

But you're right, it is understandable that people try to defend their free spirit, even in the face of well meant critique, and it is worth reminding ourselves, that for a maximized ambition in self-improvement, and minimized roadblocks for inspiration and creativity, everyone should try to preserve their humility, and that different people have different limits at a time, to take into account for nurturing their growth at the needed pace.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 07:33:44 am by RAV »

Offline PixelPiledriver

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 997
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Yo!
    • View Profile
    • My Blog

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #5 on: May 11, 2014, 12:15:10 am
I've seem to have sparked something with my comment.
Quote
Don't feel.
Think.
Open your mind to what people say.
Even if it is not what you asked for.
Emotions come naturally.
Often they are reactions.
Thinking is secondary and therefore sometimes challenging.
Emotion and logic are a balance that go hand in hand.
Emotions help to point out things of interest in your mind, but logic evaluates what they mean.

The idea here isn't to be emotionless.
It's to be serious. --> a combination of emotion and logic, not just one or the other.
Read a full block of text.
Highlight keywords.
Run tests on the parts you find interesting.
Draw connections from old thoughts to new thoughts.
Ask questions to yourself or others.
Repeat.

This will still lead to emotions.
--> You can be happy with the information provided, and enjoy the new thoughts you have.
--> You can be frustrated with the information, it was incomplete, broken, or you were not able to understand it.
But those emotions should get a secondary pass of logic as well.

Quote
Is any kind of attitude justified when criticizing?
I don't think I really believe in justification.
I know that isn't useful.
But just want to openly admit that I can't help in that part of the conversation.
It is of course open to discussion.

Quote
Honestly, I do think this community has issues (as all communities do), but elitism isn't one of them.
If you want to talk more about this go ahead.
Some of it was covered a few months ago if that's what you mean.
Or maybe it's something new or better formed at this time.

There are many thoughts and comments here I have not addressed in the above.
Will try to think them over some and respond.
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline cels

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 380
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/32715.htm
    • View Profile

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #6 on: May 11, 2014, 12:44:29 am
If you want to talk more about this go ahead.
Some of it was covered a few months ago if that's what you mean.
Or maybe it's something new or better formed at this time.
Yes, I'm referring to the discussion that took place a few months ago. I said my piece then, like many others. I don't think there's any point in restarting the discussion, because I feel like the situation was analysed pretty well by the community as a whole back then and I'm now very much at peace with how things work. Adjusting one's expectations always makes it easier to appreciate the positives.

I also think a lot of people walked away from that discussion with a quest to make things better, which they are.

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #7 on: May 11, 2014, 01:59:46 am
I've seem to have sparked something with my comment.
Quote
Don't feel.
Think.
Open your mind to what people say.
Even if it is not what you asked for.
Emotions come naturally.
Often they are reactions.
Thinking is secondary and therefore sometimes challenging.
Emotion and logic are a balance that go hand in hand.
Emotions help to point out things of interest in your mind, but logic evaluates what they mean.

Well I completely agree with that, but what I'm saying is that it goes both ways.
And I don't think we can be 100% detached from emotion..

Offline Conzeit

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1448
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Camus
    • conzeit
    • View Profile
    • CONZEIT

Re: What about attitude?

Reply #8 on: May 11, 2014, 05:12:48 pm
I think I agree with Seiseki. it matters a lot.

You really shouldnt come off as  talking from a high horse. I have a very hard time with this XD.

When you're being taught something it's very easy to deify the person teaching you, so I think it's important to show you're failable too if you're giving a crit, often in trying to communicate an idea you can come off as someone who's creating a bunch of hoops for people to jump trough before they can be as good as you are.

I'm curious Seiseki about exactly what you mean with Elitism.

I dont think we do that, I really really dont but people ALWAYS get that impression.
I remember with a guy that I brought here to learn about pixels he really felt that there was an elite squad of pixelers that would never devote his time to him no matter how good he got.

Honestly I think my personal behavior with him was much to blame for that, as I never praised him even though he made great progress, one day I did and I could tell it was a great relief for him.

I guess we have to remember to try and analyze the ways in which people do things right as much as they dont. I know I tend to think that the things being done well are obvious because they made that good stuff happen so it must have been purposeful,  while the mistakes are not obvious, they clearly missed it or they wouldnt have put it there, so I tend to not point out succeses.
 
Then I critique so much people may think I'm saying they did EVERYTHING wrong, when you're trying to give them as many ways to improve as posible.

I know I dont have as thick a skin as I'd like. even good c&c can hurt your ego, specially if it's a suggestion that is true but really doesnt help you move in the direction you're going with your piece. you'll probably have to keep going with that in there but you'll always look at it and say blech :p