I am retiring as a moderator of Pixelation - Also, Changes!

[Helm]

Hi! I've decided after many years that it's time for me to step down from active moderation. This shouldn't really warrant its own thread, but just letting everybody know because I'll be effectively demoted soon and I don't want anyone to think it's due to any bad blood or whatever with the rest of the moderators. Far the opposite, I have warm feelies for everybody involved.

Here's the thing - I think Pixelation needs new blood on the managerial side. Every time we find new people to turn into mods, they are great additions but they can't fundamentally change Pixelation or move it forward because there's a lot of inertia they have to work against. I am part of that inertia! That we haven't had the Pixelation skin for years now is inexcusable, for example. And since I didn't learn css and finish the skin myself, it tells me I no longer have the drive to keep pushing Pixelation forward.

And when there's lazy (or preoccupied, or, or, or) people on top, those that could really provide for dynamic change don't get their chance. So, I wholeheartedly urge the rest of the mods to take over - or if they want, recruit further from the userbase - and steer Pixelation to the direction it needs to go to remain vital and useful.

I will be staying in Pixelation as a normal user, contributing critique (and getting critique) and various ramblings as usual. I will have no official powers whatsoever.

To make this thread proactive, I urge everyone that is active on the forums to contribute as to how they'd like to see Pixelation carry on in the future, how they'd like to see it change for the better and what they'd like to keep the same.

In this spirit, let me be the first to contribute

Things to change:
1. Make Pixelation pretty again
2. Thank you notes for useful posts, as in 'x,y and z user found this post useful' to promote helpful critique
3. More activities, challenges and commercial critiques

Things to not change:
1. Inclusive atmosphere towards newcomers
2. No condemnation about stuff that isn't exactly pixel art, instead education and proactivity

Thank you for your patience over all these years. I learned a lot.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

Later Helm, you've been awesome!

[Crow]

Damn, you remind me again what should've been done for way too long already. The thing with the skin is, uh, a tad complicated. Working on it.™
Again, I'm a bit sad to see you leave the team, but I'm also happy you'll be sticking around

[ptoing]

Thanks for having stayed around for as long as you have, you were/are a lot of inspiration and a great friend. Will be nice to having you around, but knowing you can ease your mind from the mod work.

I reckon that once the skin is done I will mainly be in the background as well, tho as long as I feel like it I will keep the hosting and make sure this place has a home. Tho I think it probably is time for some new blood.

[NaCl]

You helped make this community the amazing place this it is! Thanks for that.

[Cyangmou]

Yeah Helm, we will see sou around anyways =) (hopefully)

let's have this again:

[Probo]

Well done Helm!

@Cyangmou Maybe there could be a a challenge/competition to design aspects of the website's new look?

[Reo]

Thanks for this time Helm! I realize that you're not leaving for good, but I'll to take this time anyway tell you what an inspiration you have been these last few years.
You have introduced me to new and different concepts and thoughts not only in art, but music as well.
I've come to many realizations and conclusions from your writings both here and from other places and they have sparked ideas of my own.
Your writing and all the different artists I've encountered through it have come to mean so much for me that I have a hard time expressing how grateful I am for it all. And I haven't even mentioned your own art yet! You've been a pretty cool Pixel Art/Heavy Metal uncle ( in the best possible way)!
So thanks a lot for these years ( and the years to come!) Thanks for Moebius, Thanks for Fates Warning, for Voivod and Sanctuary!
I hope you'll continue to inspire and that I'll get the chance to inspire you in turn!

[Mathias]

This is interesting news! Mature move. Hope it works for the better.

Your contributions were/are really important to me. You already know that.




Guys, he's asking you to make specific points about what to change/not change . . .

. . .
To make this thread proactive, I urge everyone that is active on the forums to contribute as to how they'd like to see Pixelation carry on in the future, how they'd like to see it change for the better and what they'd like to keep the same.
. . .

Ok!

Things to change:

1. Skin. PLEASE SKIN. Skiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin.

2. Here's a new thing -
(Sven, you probably don't recall, but this is that thought I had the other day which I'd planned on dropping on you once I had it written up. Looks now is the time and place, though. So . . .)

IDEA FOR NEW PIX: Make a thread just for the compiling of and the "reviewing" of good artists.

We all love to find new artists that inspire us. I always want to see great new artists (well . . ."new" to me anyway) and what they're doing.
Yes, the compiling of artists' work is already done elsewhere. There are various artist sites where lots of portfolios can be found.
But! This idea is different. With this, the poster includes his personal thoughts.



To post, one must conform to these rules:

---1. To post about an artist, their work must be high-quality (yes, I know this is subjective) They don't have to be pro or anything. Their work must be exemplary, though.

---2. To post about an artist, their work must be a source of inspiration, for the poster. This makes it personal. Read #3 for why this is important . . .

---3. You don't just post a name. You don't just post a URL to their work. You post a review/analysis! Since the artist is one that inspires the poster, they're now much more prone to talk about them and make the post interesting, informative and contain insight about the poster him/herself.

---4. At top of post in big letters must be: name and general description/genre categorization. This increases usability of thread if just quickly scanning.

---5. Each post is basically a mini-review (can be however long you like), must include pictures of their work and your thoughts on them. Say whatever you like. Tell us why you think artist X is great. Each post is meant to not only expose Pix users to great artists, but also educate them, too.

---6. Same artist is allowed to be reviewed more than once. Why not. Part of the fun is sharing your point of view/thoughts.

---7. Disallow reply posts? Can others post their replies to an artist review post. If replies are culled, the thread would be much more "pure", easier to nav and find artists. But, would also be less interactive. I'd probably allow replies/give others ability to freely post/respond even if not a review.


--- Furthermore ---
First post in thread will contain the rules, and be updated with links to each artist post for quick indexing findability.

When an artist review post is posted and the Admin approves, the images posted are saved and referenced in the post from a safe location so they never die, like feature chest threads. Can't always trust users to keep the images alive or use a good host, unfortunately.
Should the post be locked, too? (is that even possible for a single post?)

We artists like to spend time not only creating but also conversing with each other about art. A designated, structured place to host dialogues about great artists is would be welcome.

______
I feel there's value here for Pix members. It's a slightly fish-out-of-water idea - Pix is a pixel art forum, but plenty of nifty NPA stuff goes on here, too. So, it's not that great a stretch.
Also think of SEO. I'd expect the page to rank OK on search engines, containing the searched for artist's name, along with having images, and also being updated from to time to time (all SEO boosting things) --- therefore more exposure --- therefore increased chance of new forum users.

To proceed - rather than poll users if this is something they'd like, and expect them to read the proposed rules and understand it, I think the thread should just be made and then let someone do the first example post, so everyone has a real-world visual example to help them understand how it works when they open the thread for the first time.
Doesn't need to be a gestapo moderated thread, but I think it would need some mod control in order to keep it under control and optimal for viewers.


So, there's that.
How about a music thread like that, too? Why the heck not.




Things to not change:

1. The waterfall of critique. That's the backbone of Pix. Keep it strong.

2. In-depth, philosophical art discussion (The Advent of the Cluster, ramblethread, etc). These seem important.



(dangit, helm! Cull your PM inbox out, sonny)

[RAV]

Personally, I don't find it necessary or preferable that you step down. I have not percieved you as obstacle in the way, not any of you.
Rather a bridge. Maybe a suspension bridge. But still helpful along the way. It holds even if it shakes.

When strangers meet so unlikely, coming from different backrounds, communication needs to normalize, that takes time and patience from everyone. Discussions happen, points need to be tested, but none ended in disaster as far as I can see. The persons involved have been too smart for it to not end fruitful eventually on all sides.

I have good reasons why I involve myself here rather than more "successful" places easier to get in. And that is because I see thoughtful good in here more. I prefer compact and competent communities.

If I cared about nothing but popularity, cheapskating to it by any means, don't you think I would have gone about differently? Rather I invested myself into a vision I believe in, that serves the art.

I do appreciate your attempt to set a sign with this, such that the actual message is understandable by the heart alongside head: the spirit of new frontier, instead of bunker mentality.



-------------------



For the longest time, pixelart was about cutting-edge graphics technology. Everything was pixelart, everyone trying to outdo the others.

After a while, the wealth of visuals was so broad, that to talk about it effectively, the language needed more differentiation. Just by being displayed with pixels now leaves overwhelming interpretation of the possible art. Thus you tried to identify what makes your aesthetic, to get a grasp of your craft. You tried to be descriptive such that it be useful to others. And these days we become more conscious that helpful description is not to devolve into forceful prescription, and that a living art eventually outgrows definition intuitively, for a new cycle of thinking and transmitting.


The first era was a birth of body: pixelart just was; on screen.

Followed by an era of pixelart becoming self-aware. To develop a personality it needed border conflict.

Maybe now is the time of maturity. Finding friends and family. And "giving back", after being given life and learning.


What happened happened. It needed to. We must accept it for how we came to be, and as long as we not dwell on it, but draw consequence, all is good.


Nowadays PA is to maintain an approachable presence within every type NPA. Pixelart is to test itself any other way, like it is a test to any other artist.



------------



I have a series of activities in mind that would provide for an interesting tour of pixelart outside its comfort zone. "When worlds collide".
These would be custom tool based challenges. On one hand it would serve me as a "live" testbed of my tech. On the other it would serve you as an introduction to new fields and creative opportunity to translate your skills.


But it's not about me. For another example, I think last time Arne tried that pixel art tutorial in which the public could participate with example content for that little game mockup/demo thing, was going well. It seems artists get more motivated if they see their art running reactive to their input. I imagine it could be fun making Activities/Challenges surrounding a little Demo of sorts for which content is to be made. I am sure others here could come up with little things likewise, whichever way of implementation. It should be very small, concentrated and accessible. This is no coder community, shouldn't try to be, but not much is required; it is about the assorted art input to a single thing. It does not necessarily need to be a mini game, but it must offer a straightforward way artists can put into their art, resulting to experimental effect; strange ways of utilizing and displaying pixelart, strange requirements of tailoring the pixelart to it; a new interpretation of challenge "limits" for artists.


I think this is the missing link. Pixel art has always been a joint venture of technology and art. The perceived stalemate and resignation stems from mental divorce and neglect.

This kind of proactive "workbench jam" requires a theoretic and practical flexibility and agility to PA that Pixelation, in its informality, has above PJ as gallery.

[Zizka]

I'm under the impression you're being a bit hard on yourself but you know yourself better than I do. 

It's great to read you'll still be around though.

2. Thank you notes for useful posts, as in 'x,y and z user found this post useful' to promote helpful critique

I'm always hesitant to post these as they don't provide criticism per see. I usually just PM people when they help me out. I was under the impression that posts like: ''Thanks for your criticism'' were sort of frowned upon as it doesn't really provide more insight. If I'm told this is encouraged, I'll certainly be posting more of those. 

[Crow]

I'm always hesitant to post these as they don't provide criticism per see. I usually just PM people when they help me out. I was under the impression that posts like: ''Thanks for your criticism'' were sort of frowned upon as it doesn't really provide more insight. If I'm told this is encouraged, I'll certainly be posting more of those. 

Well, I guess they could be considered as sort of one-lines. If your post does not only include your thanks, I suppose it's perfectly fine. For other occasions, a "thank you" button would be helpful, and I have talked with.. I can't remember who I talked with about that idea, but it's still sitting in the back of my head, so you'll get it eventually.

[Ellian]

Thanks for your hard work here, Helm.

Despite being more of a lurker than anything, I guess I can throw my two cents here, regarding ideas of things to change:
- Skin (as if it wasn't obvious enough... ahah); I've seen people talking about this for year with tons of big ideas and everything... but even if it's just a placeholder logo and some more... "personnal" color scheme.
It'd give the forums a bit of life, if you know what I mean.

- Along with Mathias' idea of reviewing artists: interviews. It's not much, but rather than just analazing one's work, wouldn't it be nice to actually ask the artist about what/why/how he works?
I have no idea if people would actually answer, and I know it'd be a lot of preparation work for the questions to be relevant to the artist, but still... I always found it interesting. Just saying!

- The Challenge & Activity section is clearly lacking, in my opinion. The cluster study thread, the Commercial critiques and the annual Secret Santa were wonderful additions to keep the forums lively, lately. It would be nice to see more of these kind of idea.


*creeps back in the lurking depths*

[breakfast]

I'm still pretty new-ish to these forums and pixel art forums in general, but I want to say thanks for everything Helm!

Also, I really like Mathias' idea to have a large artist thread where we get in-depth about what we like about certain artists. and I think Ellian's idea to have interviews with some better known artists to see how they work could be really beneficial to everyone.

I'm also part of TIGSource's forums, and on the Creative forum there they have a thread titled "Show us some of your pixel work!" which gets posted in every day. I know personally this is the thread I check out first when I visit those forums, as it is a great way for everyone to pop in and show what they're up to and have a place for quick critiques and comments without having to devote an entire thread just to their one current pixel piece they're working on. Something like this could benefit Pixelation I think, because as it is if someone wants to show what they're working on they have to make a whole new thread and it seems like this could be better contained within one thread that everyone is more likely to check out regularly.

[Cure]

I think it's good to make room for new blood, mods need term limits to keep them circulating. If you keep the throne for too long you can be deified and vilified.
Enjoy your newfound freedom.


What I'd like to see:
Mathias's idea seems pretty cool. I assume it's open to all media.
New skin, obviously.
More activities would be nice, but is the userbase large enough to support more? Seems we just adequately cover the current activities. "If you build it, they will come", I suppose.

re:breakfast's TIGSource-y idea: "The Colored Line Art Thread" serves that purpose iirc. A better-named and more visible thread would be nice though.

[Charlieton]

re:breakfast's TIGSource-y idea: "The Colored Line Art Thread" serves that purpose iirc. A better-named and more visible thread would be nice though.

See also the "casual pixel art encounters" thread. It didn't really take-off, though. Attempts to better facilitate this concept could probably be made.

[astraldata]

As a longtime member of the old forums, one of the only things I find sad about Pixelation is the fact that amazing critique is lost over time as posts fall away. We need a way to submit particularly helpful critique/posts allowing them to get posted in and/or linked-to from a single thread when they offer excellent insight on certain topics (such as animation or color). Even if we had to send them to a moderator, if the critique is general enough to help someone struggling with a concept like color or animation gain a new perspective or way of looking at it, the moderator could post it (or a link to it) in a larger centralized thread and sticky it for people looking up information on that subject of pixelart.

I learned pixel art from here many years ago, and I remember the old skin and the old members, such as you Helm. (My username used to be "Ace", but I can't seem to get it on this new board since I lost my old email password). I lurked a lot back then, because reading critique provided to others' work was sufficient and is what really helped me learn pixel art from the ground up. It let me see real-world examples of others' techniques without being decent enough to even know how to start with my own.

As much as I hate to see you step down, Helm, I'm certain that you've got your reasons, and I'm not going to question them. You've been an inspiration for a lot of us lurkers over the years, despite most of us never commenting about it. I've gained so much from Pixelation over the years, and I felt it's finally time for me to give something back to the community (which is why I've not been doing so much lurking as of late).

One thing I've always wished is that users could post challenges themselves, instead of having to go through moderators to do it. I personally have thought of a million challenges that would have helped me and many others, but always thought that there might be a reason moderators don't post weekly challenges like they used to (be it time, motivation, or whatever), so I never thought it was a good idea to attempt to bloat their inbox with another PM due to the rising number of "u do cool art! will u ma3k my game 4 me???" kinds of private messages. So I just sat on them.

I would think it'd be better to just let moderators delete stupid/pointless challenges that aren't helpful instead of requiring them to approve them first. I think this would really revive Pixelation because pixel-art is indeed a challenge in itself -- and that would help those seeking to learn it contain their art/examples in a single thread, and possibly even have the OP (and others) offer general critique during and after the challenge.

(That's just my two cents.)

As for a new direction for Pixelation, I'm in no position to suggest this, but I really do think some sort of an encyclopedia-style approach could be very helpful to the spirit of Pixelation (at least as far as useful critique threads on various subjects of pixel art and animation). I was lucky to be at the right place at the right time back then to catch the posts I needed to learn pixel-art, but it does seem like that sense of community has faded around here (minus a small group of awesome pixel artists), and due to that, some knowledge seems to be a lot harder to come by these days due to the most-knowledgeable people less-actively contributing to critique requests these days. Maybe that was because the old board died and many members never came back. Who knows. I just had a strong enough passion, respect, and appreciation for what you guys are doing here that I did. I'm doing my best to take up the slack because I appreciate what Pixelation did for me.

[Zizka]

I've done an interview with Pixel Pile Driver but he has yet to answer the questions  He's a great guy, hope to share the results shortly!

[Cyangmou]

As a longtime member of the old forums, one of the only things I find sad about Pixelation is the fact that amazing critique is lost over time as posts fall away. We need a way to submit particularly helpful critique/posts allowing them to get posted in and/or linked-to from a single thread when they offer excellent insight on certain topics (such as animation or color). Even if we had to send them to a moderator, if the critique is general enough to help someone struggling with a concept like color or animation gain a new perspective or way of looking at it, the moderator could post it (or a link to it) in a larger centralized thread and sticky it for people looking up information on that subject of pixelart.

http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?board=11.0

last feature from 2009 - how can that be? It'd basically just be good to move finished threads into there which contain great sources of information.

[Dex]

Helm, you'll always be one of the most iconic people in the world of pixel art, you've done so much to push it ahead throughout the years and you've inspired all of us in a ton of ways with your deeper levels of thinking when it comes to how we design pixels and the in-depth examination of various techniques that can be employed. Thanks for making Pixelation what it is and I hope you'll continue to design various analysis-based pixel art threads in the future-- they're very informative, helpful, and usually very fun!

As for the state of the forum-- I remember back when I joined I would peruse the old challenge threads and other various activities to see some of the fantastic ideas that came out of small challenges with restricted palettes or dimensions, etc, etc. It was fascinating as a young artist to see those things, and they certainly inspired me and pushed me towards where I am today, and I thank Pixelation for a lot of that. So, more of those kinds of community activities where we can actively discuss, create, and participate could probably help to draw activity.

We certainly all should start posting more and providing more in-depth critiques for the userbase here. I myself haven't posted a proper thread here in a long time, and that's a shame, too, because the insights from this forum have helped me tons in the past. For some reason I find that pixel artists like myself who have been pixeling for a good while now and that tend to work on a larger scale aren't as likely to post WIP threads, and as such I'm going to try and involve myself a bit more with the community here in the coming future. Though I cite college art classes (along with all of the other classes involving mass amounts of work) as one of the factors contributing to my forum complacency, I still find that I have the time to browse every few days, so why not post critiques and discuss things more often? This is something I need to do.

I am excited to see a new skin-- it was a staple of the old forums, and it definitely made the place feel a bit more home-y and less drab. I definitely think we can work as a community to pick up the pace that Pixelation had in the old days-- the talent is here, the userbase is here, and the knowledge is here as well-- hopefully we can make things better for the future.

[Lanarky]

Thanks for all the work you've put into the forum, and if it wasn't for you and the ramble thread/clusters, I probably wouldn't have learned as much about pixel art as I know now. I'd been reading your posts years before I joined, all of them full of information that you were able to make fun and interesting. Pixelation might be a little different then before, but it has a a great looking future.

[PixelPiledriver]

Helm I really appreciate everything you've done here.
I owe you a great deal of mental inspiration.
Many of your writings and images extended my vocabulary to analyze and create.
Thanks. 

Changes:
Agreed with everyone, more activities would be great.
I looked at my activity planning thread today: Last Edit: September 20, 2012 
So yah I've been slacking a bit!
It has a list of ideas going, just didn't get around to writing them up.
It's been a rough couple years.
Will try to get back on that.

I'd like to deploy a couple different activities at once.
One that is community based.
And one that is more casual.

As far as other things...
I actually kinda like this skin. 
But I'm always up for something new.

Ptoing:

tho as long as I feel like it I will keep the hosting and make sure this place has a home.

Please do.
Let me know when payment time comes.
I'm always happy to donate.

Mathias:

IDEA FOR NEW PIX: Make a thread just for the compiling of and the "reviewing" of good artists.

You seem to have a clear idea of what you want this be.
So if you want to kick that off and show us how its done that'd be great.
I don't think I have the power to start new sections, but I am able to sticky.

RAV:

I think this is the missing link. Pixel art has always been a joint venture of technology and art.

I don't know exactly what you have in mind but if you put something together pm me.

Cyangmou:

last feature from 2009 - how can that be? It'd basically just be good to move finished threads into there which contain great sources of information.

I actually forgot this existed and I've only looked in there a few times.
Not really sure how that works.
I should ask one of the mods.

Breakfast, Charieton, Cure:

I'm also part of TIGSource's forums, and on the Creative forum there they have a thread titled "Show us some of your pixel work!" which gets posted in every day.

See also the "casual pixel art encounters" thread. It didn't really take-off, though. Attempts to better facilitate this concept could probably be made.

"The Colored Line Art Thread" serves that purpose iirc. A better-named and more visible thread would be nice though.

I have a daily sketch blog with some other artists and it's quite nice.
A daily sketch here will be the first casual activity I try to get up.

astraldata:

One thing I've always wished is that users could post challenges themselves, instead of having to go through moderators to do it. I personally have thought of a million challenges that would have helped me and many others, but always thought that there might be a reason moderators don't post weekly challenges like they used to (be it time, motivation, or whatever), so I never thought it was a good idea to attempt to bloat their inbox with another PM due to the rising number of "u do cool art! will u ma3k my game 4 me???" kinds of private messages. So I just sat on them.

I don't really have a good reason why you can't post in the activities section.
But anyone is welcome to post an exercise/activity/challenge in the General discussion area and if it gains momentum it can be moved to the activity section.
A thread I started a long time ago before I was a mod got turned into an activity.
http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=14000.0
Also don't be afraid to pm.

Zizka:

I've done an interview with Pixel Pile Driver but he has yet to answer the questions 

I have a terrible memory.
Remind me again next time we chat.

[Zizka]

Oh yeah, I'll donate too. I kind of ducked out the last time to pay and feel ashamed about it to this day. Don't worry, I'll make up to it in the next payment. If there's a person who should contribute financially to the forum, it should be me, considering how often I've used (will use) it.

[Atnas]

Wow, that was surprising news to return to. You've made pixelation a wonderful place to learn, Helm, thank you so much for your contributions over the years. Your attitude towards art and critique has always been one of the more influential voices in my head and is why pixelation will always hold a soft spot in my heart.

I think this is a good move for pixelation as well. I was only mod for a short time, and only for the initial purpose of secret santa at that, but any energy I put forth into anything besides moderating posts, such as working on the skin, or even trying to foster growth and participation in IRC, seemed to vanish. No amount of energy I put in resulted in any changes, and while this isn't the fault of any one person, it definitely seemed like pixelation represented an immovable force despite lower participation numbers. In retrospect I didn't try very hard at all, and I wish that I had, but I was dealing with a lot of things in my life and couldn't begin to think about an online community's wellbeing in addition to my own problems.

A few years ago st0ven and I tried to launch a forum called 2DHD for HD game artwork, as both of us saw pixel art as a dying medium, one that couldn't be expected to provide a full livelihood. Due to an ironic lack of interest and another failure on my part to push the site to completion, that site never came to be. We had really high hopes at first, but it was too much of an endeavor.

Basically, I love pixelation. I miss the critique I used to give and receive here. I miss being excited every day to check out the cool stuff being made in the art forums. But I find myself less interested in pixel art, and much more invested in other forms of computer art, such as painting and 3d.

I want pixelation to embrace new mediums, and not as an afterthought. A focus on pixels will always be a given, but HD game art and 3d are and have been the future for a while, and if the site is expected to not drop activity by 50% every couple years, I think it's very important.

[ptoing]

So as you might have noticed I made Atnas a mod again, because he said he wanted to be active again. GO, GO, ATNASRANGER!

[Phlakes]

2. Thank you notes for useful posts, as in 'x,y and z user found this post useful' to promote helpful critique

We need a way to submit particularly helpful critique/posts allowing them to get posted in and/or linked-to from a single thread when they offer excellent insight on certain topics (such as animation or color).

Theoretically these could probably be combined, with some kind of leaderboard thing (but without the competitive connotation) that shows the most thanked posts in order, along with a separate post that has something more organized. I'm guessing it would be insanity/completely impossible to get working on the technical side, though.

[Ryumaru]

Things to change:
- activate the feature chest again. to be honest off the top of my head I can't think of a thread that fits it, but I know there has to be some ( I can think of one that will get there at some point.) I really like the idea of threads that have golden critique in them being preserved forever ( can we just have a redirect with all of pixelpiledriver's critique with a bright flashing sign on it?)
- pretty much everything everybody else said.  Commercial Critiques are great. I'm proud of the little bit of traction the pokemon one got and it seems like one user is using some of the work inside for a ROMhack after asking permission which is a great use for such things!

Things to keep the same:
- Your old man pixel cluster rambling. It's all had immediate changes in my process even if I eschew some or most of it. The line tool thing for creating line art ( sounds even more obvious said like that) is especially helpful for tracing scanned and resized artworks with minimal clean up.
 
edit:
shall we have a MOCKUP MONDAY?

[Mathias]

Mockup Monday, you say?

Weekly activity, weekly routine you say?

Look at all the play PJ's weekly challenge gets. Something like that perhaps . . .

[Ryumaru]

That would require some sort of award system. Perhaps little icon ribbons next to your name? Conceptart.org does that with character/creature/panel/environment of the week. Would be cool. Perhaps to keep in the spirit of pixelation's hardy critique the judges could give a short write up on the winning pieces saying what was done well/ what could be done better.

[ptoing]

I like the idea of mockup monday. Do you wanna organise it Ryu? Wanna be mod?

[NaCl]

I feel like awards, points, leaderboards, etc... only encourage insubstantial contributions. What makes this forum special, to me at least, is the focus and substance of what happens here: people sharing their knowledge to help others grow. The cornerstone of the forum is this critique process and I think any change should be to support this process.

I do however think Atnas makes a good point about HD and 3D art. I wouldn't agree that pixel art is dying, but if we could build the same productive community around these forms of art, in addition to pixel art, I think that would be nothing but good. One simple change could be to separate the low-spec forum into two different forums. One for HD art and one for low-poly 3D. Right now that forum is a very awkward mixed bag. I think that awkwardness is one thing preventing growth in that area of the community.

[RAV]

Yes. Well. The first part is right. And the second isn't wrong either. Yet together they are in direct conflict to each other as things stand.

We must be disciplined in our thoughts here. This is a "chicken -- egg" dilemma, what comes first, the Activity or the people?
The answer though is the Activity of the first few people. But not just any activity, and least of all any activism.

Pixelation is well past the point of just creating some more forum sections to gain traction anymore. The creation of the "Low-Spec" forum was more to try and accommodate the varied interests of remaining members somewhat. But the problem is, Pixelation does neither have the manpower of competence in this field of art nor enough publicity, to be an attraction in that, when there are already other established communities providing all that much better.

Aside from the nostalgia of the hard core, there is no compelling argument for such artists to maintain a presence in that here. If there were any hope, action comes first, a critical mass of a distinct art had to build up creative pressure enough that needs to vent into its own section, rather than hoping that a new section motivates creativity. So this is a classic Münchhausen bootstrap out of the mud. Someone has to bite the bullet, with a lot of exclusive content high profile, although it has little expectations in return, in the hopes of generating expectations returning.

But frankly, so far all we got are symbolic acts of talk. Jump-starting this place out of this func requires a little miracle,
it requires a bold visionary step into no-man's land, it requires bloody work that's a head and shoulder above "competition".

Rather than camping on another's turf, we have to create our own turf anew from scratch. Blue ocean strategy, rather than biting it out in red ocean.

What do we have? Awesome pixel power. Knowledge in traditional arts.
What do we need? A unique difference to what others are doing, drawing on our strength and playing into the current Zeitgeist.

Pixelation should have been the TigSource in the first place.
Or it should have actively tried to profit from Minecraft.
In so far that it is re-imagined towards your sensibilities.
That creative symbiosis is to be invigorating for both parts.
But that calls for professional coding in league with professional art.

So ideally, Pixelation would research its own interpretation of 3-D, prove it successful with exquisite presentations, and become the premier experts on it for creative advice. I can play my part in it, but really, that is quite some serious work, that needs support and space, more than a red headed step child adopted and parked, It needs a dirty dozen of artists putting in some love.

In the past year, I have given glimpses of demonstration and explanations.
And maybe that sounded like being about me, when it is really about you.
In my eyes, this is about more than personal preference or ego, keep that in mind.

So what do I want? What does this mean?
If I felt this would fall on fruitful grounds here, I'd like to release a series of demos as an evolution of voxel graphics that is semi-equivalent to eras of pixel graphics.
Like, if we lived in a parallel dimension of realities, and witnessed just now the invention of graphics from scratch, what would we have done differently, what would this have looked like.
It's not so much about feature suggestion, I have my roadmap to roll out. but on each step you'd try to make the best out what you got, each new part would introduce a game changer.

This kind of work is no joke, it requires serious effort of me, so what kind of effort can I expect from you supporting it here? I do believe that this place has the best potential for it.

[RAV]

On another note, the Daily Sketch thread starts out well.

This of course has good reasons: everyone of you is naturally used to drawing sketches, everyone is qualified to comment on it, everyone is easily motivated, because it's not something fundamentally new to you and without a high barrier of entry. This is much less true for regular 3-D art. As such, it would make more sense to make a forum section for "Fine Arts", than for further segmenting 3-D. It probably would quickly beat out in activity of a week what Low Spec and consorts had in a year.

The problem though is what we really expect from that either in the greater scheme of things. The Daily Sketch is bound to amuse the same "ten" people that are around anyway, no matter what; that is fair enough, still a valuable addition to forum culture. But it isn't going to draw in new blood in noticable scale, if that is a goal discussed here too. Those are more likely to go to DeviantArt for that, or stick to any other bigger community of art, including those specialized in 3-D, that already has a Daily Sketch of its own.

So there needs to be an exceptional kind of productivity further beyond or inbetween, emerging here unlike anywhere else.

[Ymedron]

I'd say it's too sad Helm is retiring, but I would guess that you're more relieved than unhappy. It's nice to hear you won't be going away entirely. c:

REV: I'm too tired to parse these fancy words, but are you arguing that Pixelation should become a joint 3D-pixel art forum?
I feel like it doesn't make sense to compete with the likes of Polycount and other 3d art sites. Especially since if it became successful, the pixelart would no doubt become pushed aside anyway.

As a positive suggestion... Hmm.
I guess I'll just second the feature chest needing more use. It makes the site feel less like we're just wandering the ruins of a bygone culture, if that makes any sense. 

[RAV]

Uh, the argument precisely was not to try make this a regular 3D forum, since it can't compete with Polygon, etc.
If the Pixelart were to prosper here instead of stall, it needed to be a TigSource -- but that's already there now, too.
The best bet now is supporting voxel/cube art, in an elaborated form, playing out perfectly the strength of pixel art here.

Even that wouldn't mean "making Pixelation a voxel art forum". It would mean understanding pixel art as a greater family, or "friends with benefits".
Pixel art informs voxel art better than regular 3d, voxel art draws attention to pixel art naturally.
Make a search for "pixelart" on youtube and look through the first ten pages.
You won't like what you see. But that's the tide of times now.
Better try transform this thing into something you do like,
and turn this place into a leading Mecca for that yet unevolved art,
rather than have amateur voxel and pro pixel ignore each other.

Just an idea. You may as well keep to what you know, warming up tasty recipes.
It's not like Pixelation really needs some spectacular growth or something,
it's fine having it be a reliable place you know for good old friends.

[Atnas]

RAV: You make some good arguments. However I've never seen pixelation as competing for the attention of tigsource or polycount, and I don't think it needs to reinvent itself to be relevant. You can't get consistent or valuable critique on Tigsource because it is not an art forum, and Polycount's scope media wise is far too wide to have any focus on anything other than low spec.

I think Pixelation differentiates itself behaviorally from those other communities, rather than by its content. We could add new boards but that would just spread activity out thinner and could have an adverse effect on growth. I sometimes think the challenge and activity boards would do better simply as stickies on the main boards with a special icon. Pixelation was most active when it had the minimum of boards, adding more has only seemed to lose focus.

When I think of pixelation, first and foremost I think of the dedicated critique you are guaranteed to receive if you show you put in enough effort to prove you'll utilize it. It's the only place I know of with that consistency. There is lots of science and objectivity, and I trust the critique that comes from here more than I would from any other site.

The most immediate changes that would help have already been mentioned. The 'Like' feature, because critique and learning should be the emphasis. On conceptart forums all it seems to do is show how many people thought the art was well done, on pixelation it needs to be clear it means you benefited from the critique. The cookie system encouraged me to be more thoughtful in my critique when it was first introduced, and made me try to elevate my critiques so that my efforts would be recognized. Ideally people will be self motivated, but cookies are irresistible. But when only a dozen or so people even have cookies, it doesn't encourage the majority of people to aim higher. I really believe that a separate rank based on accumulative likes might be a good thing. And a feature to sort out the highest liked posts by board or member, etc, would be the next step. I can see that being a really useful tool.

I'm also in support of a weekly activity. Mockup Monday sounds great. If it doesn't have a good turnout we can do it the first monday of every month. Philadelphia has an every month art venue called First Friday, that rate allows a lot of time for artists to prepare their work every month for display. It gets you excited for what you'll see the next month, or if maybe you'll sell more work the next month, etc. Be careful of people burning out, if an activity is too frequent it won't have the same momentum as it has potential for.

[RAV]

Actually, I agree with you, mostly. I'm just not sure the rest of the world does. It's not about convincing me. I'm here. A great many more are there.

Places like Polycount are where 3d competence is concentrated such that coming here doesn't make sense for people.
I see many new people on PJ already linking to a Tig project thread for further information instead of Pixelation, never asking for advice here.
So how can we better communicate your idea about Pixelation to new blood these days, is the question.

That aside, what I'm suggesting has the most bang for the buck, reinventing Pixelation less than other options; I think that's the point.

But I won't argue with you the sense or success on what you like to do.
We agree on what's good about the spirit of Pixelation, setting it apart.
The rest is up to you, after all it's your time and energy.
Ideally you would spite my caution and succeed in anything you do,
it would be great if Pixelation could succeed in a variety of ways.

[Ryumaru]

RAV: It's obvious Pixelation needs some change to keep with the times. Voxels are an interesting art form and I agree that as pixel artists we have more knowledge of it's assembly than artists coming from a strictly 3D background. I wonder if perhaps the low spec forum could be divided into two separate areas: a high res 2D forum for digitally painted assets, and a 3D forum where low poly counts, pixeled or otherwise low resolution textures, and voxel art were encouraged.

Of course Pixelation should always be very concerned with pixel art. We don't care if it's a "dying" medium or if it is usually only exploited for nostalgia. There is not another forum that I am aware of ( that is english speaking) that gives critique of such high caliber, and seeks to carry on traditional methods and elevate the medium. Indie games still utilize it as a relatively quick and cost effective way to create visuals, but the technique is often sub par. We need to reach those artists and show them the way of the pixel.

About Mock-up Monday: I really don't even know what I had in mind when I brought it up, I just liked the name. What do you guys imagine it to be/ what do you think would be beneficial for the community? It could be a place to simply dump mock ups in ( of any medium) and get general critique and asspats towards composition, arrangement and readability of game assets, color palette, etc.
-and/ or-
It could be a weekly challenge where a title is generated at random, and people create a mockup based on that. it could be completely open, or given restrictions of various consoles, and awards could be given for the best ones.

[Cure]

I like the idea of a weekly activity, a mockup activity would be awesome too, but I don't think awards are necessary. I kind of like that about Pixelation, the activities are done for their own sake and not for internet acclaim or profile trophies.

[ptoing]

OK, Ryu is a mod now. Welcome into the fold.

MM could be similar to what Adam did at some point with the themed demake thing, just not demake. Have a different theme on a weekly/biweekly basis, but keep entries open of course.

[Atnas]

RAV: Rereading your posts I realize we aren't in disagreement, the only thing I'm cautious of is gearing Pixelation more towards a single art form than it already is. Because I think the narrow focus on pixel art is actually hurting the forum, and instead of expanding it to embrace something specific like voxels, I think it should be all inclusive. I think the pixel art "fad" won't die, and the forum enjoyed success in the 2000s because of the popularization of the indie scene and expansion of mobile gaming and handheld gaming, but now I think it's past due to take all the practices we've applied to one form of computer art and apply it more generally. In a broad sense, Pixelation is present in all forms of computer art, if you look close enough! c: And I think that's the important step forward, and in order to realize that I'm set on creating a better environment in the low spec boards. Voxels would be included, if there is interest.

To attract new, fresh, eager blood to that area there needs to be a step in a new direction, I agree. I'm planning a series of challenges, activities, or tutorials, whatever there is most notably a lack of, in the realm of low poly or 2d hd painting etc. I really believe that's the future of the forum, because it's the natural evolution of the displays traditionally used for pixel art. But resolution technology has outgrown pixel art as we've come to understand it, so we should offer the same atmosphere as we once did for those tiny finite resolution graphics for larger, potentially infinite resolution graphics.

Also as a disclaimer, I'm not advocating a shift of focus so much as a broadening of focus. I want to be able to come here for relevant, available, productive critique for my real world needs, and thats mostly hi res 2d meant for medium size screens. The emphasis on pixel art will always be first and foremost of the forum.

[Ryumaru]

  woot

Cure: I see the focus on art, but I've never seen it as prohibitive. If you've ever visited conceptart, I think they do it well. I personally don't mind the competition and reward aspect, but that's just me. Sometimes it can be a way to cheat less driven but talented artists into participating.

Should MM be pixel art only? or if the other art forums are created, it could be a way to be all inclusive allowing for painted and even 3D work.

Also, about an HD art forum, what about an activity where sprites from famous games are reinterpreted? Think fighters, final fantasies and such.

edit: Man that katana is sexy.

[ptoing]

Yeah, sure, we could try all that. Giving it a shot wont hurt.

[Ryumaru]

Atnas: do you know of any people that specialize in 2DHD art creation that would be willing to help get things rolling? Challenges and activities for members already here is good, but we will need people that excel, or have primary interest in that area to make things stick.

[Atnas]

I definitely think all mediums supported by the community should be allowed in forum-wide activities such as the theoretical Mockup Monday. If there's an opportunity to be inclusive, I think it's a good idea. Obviously something like a dither challenge would wind up being pixel art only, but where we can pull in more participation, the better.

Ryu: Indigo and st0ven off the top of my head are the two that were most interested in starting a separate 2dhd board with me a few years back. Actually st0ven and I chipped in to pay for the domain and space and he did a lot of work on the forum but we never got it off the ground. I specifically think Indigo's lowpoly 3d -> pixel art conversion method is one of the most important and relevant things to this forum that we could all learn a lot from. Also his Spunk and Moxie game is a nice clean example of hd art that scales down well and emulates pixel art principles. st0ven works with vectors a lot and I would imagine he has a lot to say about how to extend the finite nature of pixel art to the infinite nature of vector without suffering from all the pitfalls most vector artists get carried away with.

[RAV]

Well, I have nothing to disagree, even if it's not quite my way, nor the resonance I'd need. Wish you the best of luck. Your choice is fair enough.
I consider my duty done here and concern myself with other matters henceforth. After all, I played the role of pompous poser or desperate beggar long enough. =)

[Ryumaru]

Atnas: They are both extremely talented and I would love to see their work grace the pages of pixelation again, even if not in the form of pixel art. Not to mention they are both still very knowledgeable in PA and could lend it to critiques every now and again.

RAV: It's obvious you're very passionate about voxels! If/when things are set up with a bit more purpose and utility in this forum, we would love to see you share your work in the medium. People passionate about what they do is what makes forums like this run.

[Chris2balls]

You've contributed a lot as a moderator to shaping Pixelation, Helm, but I agree that it's time for some new, dynamic, enthusiastic and motivated users in the staff team.
I'm all for more challenges and activities! The De-Make challenge was what originally brought me to Pixelation!

[questseeker]

My opinion about "broadening" topics is that pixel art is a broad enough theme, but peripheral aspects beyond the C&C and challenges threads that are the main content of the forum are a bit neglected, making the forum as a whole less nice and useful than it could be.

• Software and technical aspects, particularly at a time when several high profile pixel-oriented drawing programs are under development but don't seem to find a lot of love and interest.
• "Almost" pixel art, maybe including the mentioned 3D voxel art. Being inclusive and not scaring away non-purists can be an important feature.
• Tutorials and recommendations for beginners, addressing the common gap between "I want/need to draw this and that" and "I cannot make it look good" in a preemptive, organized and high quality way rather than repeatedly and haphazardly in C&C threads.
• Discussion of current videogame graphics. The pixel art niche includes good games that, in many cases, aren' even particularly "retro": if the newest game in the Commercial Critique section is Pokemon Red/Blue it's a clear sign of an overly nostalgic point of view.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

• Tutorials and recommendations for beginners, addressing the common gap between "I want/need to draw this and that" and "I cannot make it look good" in a preemptive, organized and high quality way rather than repeatedly and haphazardly in C&C threads.

C+C is always better in a case by case basis. A thread that just shows how to do various items would lead to everyone's teakettles or whatnot looking exactly the same. If that is what you are saying, if not I'm dumb.

[ptoing]

Totally agree with Mr. F here. Tutorials have a place, but that should mainly be when it comes to very technical things. Like tutorials for a specific program (which does not apply much in 2D, but in 3D it does). Tutorials for drawing specific things like trees, eyes, bricks and so on are pretty pointless imo. Just look at real instances of what you wanna draw and simplify from there.

I know this may sound a bit daft to someone starting out, but the best lesson you can learn about anything is that there are no shortcuts to getting good. The only thing you can do is put in the time to become good.

So in that case specific C&C is a lot better because it allows people to point out where someone could use improving.

[Cyangmou]

Tut's are unpersonal, giving someone critique is very personal.

The Link lists maybe also need a makeover, they seem to be pretty old.

[Facet]

I meant to give the 'linkage' threads an update/prune ages ago actually , I'll go make a start on culling all the dead links and then maybe we could do with a bunch of new suggestions, maybe more internal links to preserve quality crits like someone was asking earlier.

Thanks for everything Helm!

[Atnas]

Until we get a thanks system integrated, a new thread where people post links to internal critique that struck them as particularly helpful wouldn't be a bad idea imo.

And since it seems we'll be adding a feature chest for each art section, we should probably be a little more proactive about archiving new and excellent content.

[Zizka]

For the skin of the forum, couldn't we do something collaborative? That would be nice, what do you guys think?

[Atnas]

The skin will come soon, basically all that's left is a day of busywork from what I saw. If it's not this month, I'll be very very surprised.

[Crow]

The skin will come soon, basically all that's left is a day of busywork from what I saw. If it's not this month, I'll be very very surprised.

Did you see something I didn't? :/

[Atnas]

Apparently I mistook ptoings mockup for a screenshot. :/ My bad, that actually makes me pretty worried. Forget what I said.

[Azuyre]

I'm a little late to this but thanks for all the help you've given so far Helm!

Regarding changes and stuff for the forums I was recently thinking about posting the palette I'm using for a game project to ask for some advice and it got me thinking about a thread for that type of thing. I thought it might be interesting if we had a dedicated color thread or something, the first post could contain a running list of commonly used palettes like console palettes and low color palettes by people like Arne and Dawnbringer.

Besides just working as a list the topic could be used to discuss general stuff relating to palettes and color, people could also post art or palettes and ask for advice when it's for something small that doesn't seem thread-worthy.

Do you guys think this is something that might get some use?

[Ai]

I'm a little late to this but thanks for all the help you've given so far Helm!

Regarding changes and stuff for the forums I was recently thinking about posting the palette I'm using for a game project to ask for some advice and it got me thinking about a thread for that type of thing. I thought it might be interesting if we had a dedicated color thread or something, the first post could contain a running list of commonly used palettes like console palettes and low color palettes by people like Arne and Dawnbringer.

Console palettes are not so simple as a palette by itself.

Besides just working as a list the topic could be used to discuss general stuff relating to palettes and color, people could also post art or palettes and ask for advice when it's for something small that doesn't seem thread-worthy.

Do you guys think this is something that might get some use?

Personally, I think there is plenty of confusion about color around here, so yes.
I'll drop off some links that are good resources:
 this, this, or this.

[Azuyre]

Console palettes are not so simple as a palette by itself.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of information to consider if you're really gonna get deep into emulating a console's graphics. That thread seems like it would definitely be worth linking to in a potential color thread for people interested in the specifics. That or someone could take the relevant information and put it into spoiler tags under the respective palettes.

Personally, I think there is plenty of confusion about color around here, so yes.
I'll drop off some links that are good resources:
 this, this, or this.

Those are some interesting threads, I remember passing the first one recently, it looks like it has a lot of the well known low color palettes. It seems like you definitely know your stuff when it comes to palettes and restrictions based on all the posts in those other two threads.

[Cyangmou]

What I'd suggest for the pixel-art section would be a short and simple posting guideline

Basically just a thread which explains, that it's most effective to post a single piece of art and explain roughly what someone wants to improve (or points out the problems he had so far).

I mean there were quite some people who filled up their threads with v5+ unrelated pieces and there it#s hard to give critique because you don't know which one.