AuthorTopic: Big boobed characters in video games  (Read 75266 times)

Offline Crow

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Big boobed characters in video games

on: January 16, 2013, 04:04:16 pm
Ymedron got me to think about this, and I'd like to start a discussion on the topic. I'd like to write a little more to start things off, but can't thing of anything very good, so you'll have to do with a short paragraph.

Boobs in video games. Often used so characters are distinguishable as females, or so some developers say, apparently. Of course there's also the whole "sex sells" things that comes into play, and I bet it works. Very well, at that - see several free to play MMORPGs. Are they necessary? I don't think so! Take a look, for example, at Mirror's Edge. Faith is female, but doesn't have a lot of cleavage at all, yet she is a very fitting character and - obviously - easily recognizable as a female. No big boobs required for high sales, eh?

So, what do you guys and gals say? I'd like to read a little more about your opinion :)

Offline Carnivac

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #1 on: January 16, 2013, 04:13:26 pm
Did Mirror's Edge sell well?  I used to find it in the bargain bins of my then local game shop for £3.   Not that I bought it (not into first person games although playing the demo some years ago I do think it does do the viewpoint a hell of a lot more convincing than most other first person games)

I was gonna mention Jade from Beyond Good & Evil as a non-busty female lead but that didn't sell well at all...

I've never cared much for overt sexuality in video games cos they often seem just too obviously designed to make thousands of video game nerds have a hard on and that's an image I simply do not want to think about.    Also I like practical character design (no silly giant moussed hair or spikes poking out all over a costume, no high heel boots on the lady) and often the female leads with the biggest breasts tend to be so stupidly exposed that they'd be dead in seconds in a real battle. 
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Offline rikfuzz

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #2 on: January 16, 2013, 05:21:24 pm
I had a quick look at the game charts, and there was only one game in the charts that even had a female on the cover, Just Dance 4.  I think this is probably a title that's aimed more at female players anyway, but the character in question wasn't sexualised at all. (In the cover at least, there's some marketing materials where some people might argue it was, but it'd be a stretch - obviously its influences are music videos and stuff which are pretty sexualised - without offending the female market).

An anecdotal aside, but all my female artist friends are much more obsessed with drawing breasts than their male counterparts.

It's only one chart, so not a huge amount of data, but it doesn't appear to be necessary or endemic. Perhaps it's a little more than occasional guilty pleasure, but I'd actually argue video games are not the "worst offenders" here. I think the lack of female representation is far more worrying. 

Offline Crow

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #3 on: January 16, 2013, 06:10:12 pm
Did Mirror's Edge sell well?  I used to find it in the bargain bins of my then local game shop for £3.   Not that I bought it (not into first person games although playing the demo some years ago I do think it does do the viewpoint a hell of a lot more convincing than most other first person games)

Well, maybe not a top-selling game, but definitely good, and it has received quite some praise. Also, apparently, a second part might be out at some point in the near future.


I was gonna mention Jade from Beyond Good & Evil as a non-busty female lead but that didn't sell well at all...

Hahaha, I actually thought about mentioning that in the first post :D

Offline Carnivac

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #4 on: January 16, 2013, 07:48:34 pm
Hahaha, I actually thought about mentioning that in the first post :D

Weeell, she got two purchases from me.  Original release almost 10 years ago on my PS2 and more recently the 'HD remake' off PSN back in 2011.  Fun game and she's got more charm than all the of Dead or Alive ladies (if you can call them that... inflatable dolls might be more apt) combined. 
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Offline Streaksy

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 02:12:01 am
I think Mirror's Edge did pretty well because it looked good in the trailers, then I imagine people found out it was awful.  Got it in a Steam sale and it's terrible but very pretty.

I think cool, fit girls sell anyway, and a nice massive rack is just an easy way.  Thinking back to the first Tombraider... I really thought it was refreshing and new and wasn't over-done.  I was 17 I think, and it doesn't take a ton of soul-searching to work out that just maybe the fit arse permanantly on screen and glimpses of enormous jugs might have had some influence on my initial appreciation of it.

I think there's a pink-haired dominatrix character in Street Fighter or Tekken now with 2/3 of her bodyweight carried in her bra and the rest in her hips.  I don't think that would swing a game sale in my case, but if I was a youngun today, who knows.  Oh, and Tifa from FF7.  She's stacked right up, but there's no attention drawn to it in the game, and she's a really nice character.  Ooh, and Elexis Sinclair fron SiN.  Loved the game, and played it recently and it was just awful, even by yesterday's standards.  It does make me wonder how sexy women affected my perceptions of things I THOUGHT I was judging objectively.  There's plenty proof for it.  Sexy girls at car races and car showrooms makes no sense but makes plenty money, so you don't even have to go further than an illogical association for sex to sell something.  I've seen pictures of game exposes at events like E3 and some stalls have models in cosplay of game characters, and I BET the bigger the chest, the more men wander over to check the game out.

Those stupid twins in the new Duke Nukem game (which I quite like) definitely aren't why I like it, but 15 years ago, I'm sure they'd raise my interest in the game without any concious record of the reason.

As for today, a cool female character does still get my attention if I'm being honest with myself, and obviously I'm wired to respond to nice boobs.  There just aren't many I can think of that don't override the response with annoyance.  Girls these days have to be bad-ass and formulaic and unnessecary.

Or that's all just me.  :D

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 02:39:55 am
Disclaimer: devil's advocate here

Would it be acceptable for a female to be in the same amount of dress as this guy?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-17/sc5-algol.html

Where is his armor pointing?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-21/doa5-ryu-hayabusa.html


I wonder what the metaphor here is:
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/ff7-sephiroth.html

Sexuality in video games is more layered than most probably think of. I would argue that males are just as sexualized, if not more in many cases. The reason they don't have to be nude is because they are often carrying weapons which are innately phallic. I would assume in a humanity where the roles of genders were reversed, we would be complaining about large muscles, confident poses, and successful attire as opposed to large breats, stereotypical shy inward facing knees, and revealing clothing.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 02:48:14 am
It's hard to say if games don't sell well strictly because they have a female lead/female on the cover, because there are a lot of factors that can contribute to a game not selling well, besides the fact that it's a female(at least "average females"). There are plenty of games out there that don't sell well despite being great games, and with male leads as well. Sometimes a game just doesn't get the marketing it deserves and fails to grab large-scale attention. Sure, gamers may have heard of it and it gets tons of positive reception... but that doesn't push the numbers that determine if it sells well or not.

One game that comes to mind with an average-looking female lead that did well critically and commercially is Silent Hill 3; you also have Final Fantasy 13, which sold quite well(but with some poor reception). There's also Portal and Portal 2, and I think the Perfect Dark series did pretty well....... does Mrs. Pac Man count? :P None of these games really have their lead females with over-sized boobs selling their sexuality(contrasting to games like Bayonetta). I mean ya, they tend to look pretty, but males get the same treatment; males tend to be designed to be either overly masculine or at least handsome.

Offline Carnivac

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 08:52:12 am
does Mrs. Pac Man count? :P

Technically it's Ms. Pac-Man and she's pure sex.
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Offline PixelPiledriver

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 11:42:22 am
Sex appeal is a component of human life.
When used to represent the female gender, breasts are an obvious connection.
Perhaps the dislike towards large breasts is the feeling that sexuality is a private matter.

We could divide every female character we can think of into groups of breast size but I'm not sure that's entirely useful.
There's a huge amount of counter examples already in existence.

I'm not completely convinced by the common argument that its not realistic for a character to dress or be a certain way because the real life counter part wouldn't work.
If video game characters where in it to make sense of their surroundings, Mario would take a bus to Bowser's castle instead of walking, or he would stay home and call the police to report a kidnapping.
Sonic wouldn't run fast because hedgehogs really aren't that impressive speed wise.
Humor falls apart quickly in the same way.
Once we say something isn't funny, or that it couldn't have happened like that, it seizes to be amusing.

Don't get me wrong.
Designing a female in fully functional armor IS interesting and cool.
But it doesn't make a design with revealing armor less interesting.
There are different characterizations.

Games are made by people, and those individuals have certain likes, dislikes, and ideas.
Not all game developers sit around thinking, "If we increase the boob size by this much we'll make this much more money".
Many of them are using their skills to add work to a project that they think improves it.
But the artist and art are independent.
Drawing a murder does not make you a criminal.
Drawing large breasts does not make you a sex fiend.

Variety in design let's us describe different kinds of characters.
Scaling proportions is a powerful structure for doing so.
I enjoy creating female characters with a variety of features.

These are just my own thoughts on the matter.
They in no way attempt to solve what is considered to be a problem, as I don't see it as one.
Sex is a great and positive thing.
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline Carnivac

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 12:19:45 pm
If video game characters where in it to make sense of their surroundings, Mario would take a bus to Bowser's castle instead of walking, or he would stay home and call the police to report a kidnapping.

The Mushroom Kingdom has a bus service?  My own town barely has one.
And I think if Mario reported it to the police mentioning pipes that go to other worlds, jumping on turtles and that a princess was kidnapped by some big lizard thing they'd think him nuts...
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Offline PixelPiledriver

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #11 on: January 17, 2013, 01:22:05 pm
 :lol:

And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline Carnivac

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 01:48:08 pm
  ;D

His eyes are creeping me out a bit.
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Offline Ymedron

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 01:50:29 pm
Much of this boob-discussion is colored by people being afraid of having the designs they like getting taken away.
Even in MMO:s where you get an option to play a female, often times they don't give you the chance to wear the clothes you want. (Aion, Tera?) Its like they are scared that people will not play the overly sexualized characters. :l

It wouldn't be such a problem if both sides were exposed and treated in a similar way. Im sure most of you can distinguish between a powerful male and a sexual male. I've seen a lot of people claim that males are objectified just the same way, but the difference is that the male character is intended to look badass while the female is intended to look lust-inducing.

If a male character whose only clothes were stripper armor or codpieces would be inappropriate, would it be right to have females who have the equivalent type of armor?
So I guess I just want there to be an equivalent amount of sexualization of both genders, and preferably an option that isn't for those who aren't impressed by it such as myself.

Until then I just play male characters.

Edit: And yes, Im actually saying that sex is not a positive thing to everyone. There are people who have no interest in sex or courtship. It'd be nice to have a choice for those people too.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 01:55:17 pm by Ymedron »
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Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 02:23:20 pm
I am startled by how off-base I find most statements in this thread.

The sexual objectification of female characters in videogames is rampart. Sexism is a huge problem. Most males who try to underplay it cannot look at things without their gaze being coloured by their male privilege. I do not have the time to engage point by point with anyone, I'll just keep this because it's really startling:

"Thinking back to the first Tombraider... I really thought it was refreshing and new and wasn't over-done."

And I'll just post this here.





Offline rikfuzz

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 02:26:10 pm
Much of this boob-discussion is colored by people being afraid of having the designs they like getting taken away.
Even in MMO:s where you get an option to play a female, often times they don't give you the chance to wear the clothes you want. (Aion, Tera?) Its like they are scared that people will not play the overly sexualized characters. :l

It wouldn't be such a problem if both sides were exposed and treated in a similar way. Im sure most of you can distinguish between a powerful male and a sexual male. I've seen a lot of people claim that males are objectified just the same way, but the difference is that the male character is intended to look badass while the female is intended to look lust-inducing.

If a male character whose only clothes were stripper armor or codpieces would be inappropriate, would it be right to have females who have the equivalent type of armor?
So I guess I just want there to be an equivalent amount of sexualization of both genders, and preferably an option that isn't for those who aren't impressed by it such as myself.

Until then I just play male characters.

Edit: And yes, Im actually saying that sex is not a positive thing to everyone. There are people who have no interest in sex or courtship. It'd be nice to have a choice for those people too.

I totally understand the distinction between power-fantasy and sexual-fantasy, and understand some games might be found offensive for some people, but I don't see the gratuitously sexualised characters that often, it actually seems to be becoming a bit of a niche, and seems self-aware when it does appear (Lollipop Chainsaw, Skullgirls).  And again, in my limited anecdotal experience the girls I know seem to enjoy that aspect of them at least as much as the boys. 

I definitely understand wanting a choice, I just feel like there is plenty of choice and variety out there (granted I don't know much about MMOs). And if you really see an unfulfilled approach to game design, make something to start the trend!

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 02:44:57 pm
http://crowsy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tera03uc3.jpg
The first image on the google search when you google Tera.
Compare the two female characters and male characters.
I don't really have much else to argue with you, it is pretty impossible to change peoples' opinions on the internet.

Though lastly... Your last point boils down to "You can't criticize if you can't make better." I know it is worded nicer, but criticism should not be qualified by the track record of the person who says it. I want to make a game, but there are a lot of steps between then and now. The industry shouldn't have to wait for a potential developer to start a trend. It's not too much to ask developers and gamers to think more carefully, is it?
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Offline Crow

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 04:23:00 pm
A few more points of my own: the way I see it, females are generally quite an "issue" in games, even today. They either do not appear at all (which is just as problematic in my opinion) or are often over sexualized. Games like TERA and the like just do what they think is best for the game: create something appealing for the mostly male audience. We can see that didn't work, though, as they just recently shifted to free to play. Or, to put it differently, they failed horribly with their subscription concept. Which is probably because the game itself is bad, and only the characters are appealing. So, obviously, that doesn't "save" a game. And yet it is done fairly often, when it just isn't required. No women at all in games (take Call of Duty and the like as an example) also tends to be very boring. I mean, why the heck not, anyway?

One more thing: oversexed females in games that don't need them, or where it's not the selling point, at all. Take The Witcher 2 and look at Triss. Quite an interesting and rather solid character in the game and story, but also with a huge rack, among other "features".. and scenes. Of course, a sexy character here and there shouldn't be a problem, eh? Well, what do you think?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 04:25:33 pm by Crow »

Offline rikfuzz

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 04:50:11 pm
http://crowsy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tera03uc3.jpg
The first image on the google search when you google Tera.
Compare the two female characters and male characters.
I don't really have much else to argue with you, it is pretty impossible to change peoples' opinions on the internet.

Well, I wasn't saying it doesn't exist, I was suggesting it's not unavoidable if you choose to, and that mainstream audiences are not really all that swayed by this kind of treatment.  At least I certainly don't think it's a necessity to generate sales; it's one 'tactic', sure, but I think as a trend it's in decline, making room for a little more variety.  :y:  (I put tactic in quotes because I'm not sure how much is a conscious sales tactic and how much is people just making what they like).

Though lastly... Your last point boils down to "You can't criticize if you can't make better." I know it is worded nicer, but criticism should not be qualified by the track record of the person who says it. I want to make a game, but there are a lot of steps between then and now. The industry shouldn't have to wait for a potential developer to start a trend. It's not too much to ask developers and gamers to think more carefully, is it?

Apologies if that's how it sounds, I'm not disregarding your criticism at all. In fact I'm working on my own games, as a lot of us here are, so it's pretty interesting to hear.  I do genuinely want to encourage you to make your own stuff too, especially if you think it's different to the industry norm.

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 05:42:37 pm
If you look into a typical magazine aimed towards girls you'll see both sexualized men and women.
Personally I think if a game sexualizes it's characters it should do it for both genders since that's only fair.
But the majority of gamers would probably be too uncomfortable with that, which pretty much points out just how biased it currently is.

I think gamers are a bunch of jerks in general.
And as games become more mainstream more jerks will become gamers.
People are intolerant, sexist, bigots and that's why you see these outrageous reactions when someone points out that all these characters with big boobs might be an issue.

In the end, since the majority of gamers want this the industry will keep adjusting their content to match their expectations, to sell games.
And it's not a democracy, it's consumer demand, capitalism. But if the industry want to attract more females they need to change.

Though lastly... Your last point boils down to "You can't criticize if you can't make better." I know it is worded nicer, but criticism should not be qualified by the track record of the person who says it. I want to make a game, but there are a lot of steps between then and now. The industry shouldn't have to wait for a potential developer to start a trend. It's not too much to ask developers and gamers to think more carefully, is it?

I don't think that's fair, the point to me reads more like "do something about it" and not "keep quiet if you can't do better"..
And it can be applied to any criticism about certain genres or tastes not being represented, "too many shooter games!", "well.. DO something about it!".

We could argue if games are at a point where they need to appeal to everyone in a democratic fashion and I'd say if they don't it's their loss.
Of course we can criticize them for it and it would be valid, but we still can't force new trends unless consumer demand changes or the companies decide to pursue a wider audience.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 05:54:37 pm by Seiseki »

Offline Facet

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 05:48:43 pm
It's definitely a problem in terms of prevalence, I don't think anyone wants to prohibit licentiousness where it's due, and that's pretty hard to define, but it really shouldn't be the status quo for mainstream media.

Why is it so prevalent though? I guess that there's so little actual and frank sexual content of any persuasion in commercial games (in terms of narrative) that it's inclusion tends to be clumsily overstated in the superficial outlet that it does have; that being boobs etc, and so tick the 'mature' box (along with violence) that has a large male audience.

Edit: that all sounded like ass, cropped but idk.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 12:06:57 am by Facet »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 06:31:43 pm
Much of this boob-discussion is colored by people being afraid of having the designs they like getting taken away.
Even in MMO:s where you get an option to play a female, often times they don't give you the chance to wear the clothes you want. (Aion, Tera?) Its like they are scared that people will not play the overly sexualized characters. :l

It wouldn't be such a problem if both sides were exposed and treated in a similar way. Im sure most of you can distinguish between a powerful male and a sexual male. I've seen a lot of people claim that males are objectified just the same way, but the difference is that the male character is intended to look badass while the female is intended to look lust-inducing.

If a male character whose only clothes were stripper armor or codpieces would be inappropriate, would it be right to have females who have the equivalent type of armor?
So I guess I just want there to be an equivalent amount of sexualization of both genders, and preferably an option that isn't for those who aren't impressed by it such as myself.

Until then I just play male characters.

Edit: And yes, Im actually saying that sex is not a positive thing to everyone. There are people who have no interest in sex or courtship. It'd be nice to have a choice for those people too.

But do you understand that the objectification is equal, just different? just as it would be silly to attract a man by drawing broad shouldered females with large muscles and long swords, it would be equally silly to display a male with wide hips in stripper clothing. If you look at my post above I showed 3 examples of games that I argue show men at an equal, perhaps even more sexualized manner.

Offline HughSpectrum

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 06:49:45 pm
Quote
A few more points of my own: the way I see it, females are generally quite an "issue" in games, even today. They either do not appear at all (which is just as problematic in my opinion) or are often over sexualized. Games like TERA and the like just do what they think is best for the game: create something appealing for the mostly male audience. We can see that didn't work, though, as they just recently shifted to free to play. Or, to put it differently, they failed horribly with their subscription concept. Which is probably because the game itself is bad, and only the characters are appealing. So, obviously, that doesn't "save" a game. And yet it is done fairly often, when it just isn't required. No women at all in games (take Call of Duty and the like as an example) also tends to be very boring. I mean, why the heck not, anyway?
Hyper-sexualized female characters has been the norm for awhile now in Korean MMOs, so it's more likely that they were following an expectation set by earlier games like Linage II than actually having put much thought to how it would benefit them.

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 07:10:44 pm
But do you understand that the objectification is equal, just different? just as it would be silly to attract a man by drawing broad shouldered females with large muscles and long swords, it would be equally silly to display a male with wide hips in stripper clothing. If you look at my post above I showed 3 examples of games that I argue show men at an equal, perhaps even more sexualized manner.

But the males that are being displayed here are not to attract females, they are to attract males. Even the ninja and Sephiroth are meant to be cool with accidental sexual innuendos. After all, otherwise they would have a pose more like http://static9.depositphotos.com/1549192/1108/i/450/dep_11084593-Sexualized-Male-Body-Shot.jpg this.

I can't say much about the soul calibur guy, since I haven't seen how he behaves in the game. However, you have to admit there is about one guy to ten females that have this treatment given to them.
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 07:37:28 pm
But do you understand that the objectification is equal, just different? just as it would be silly to attract a man by drawing broad shouldered females with large muscles and long swords, it would be equally silly to display a male with wide hips in stripper clothing. If you look at my post above I showed 3 examples of games that I argue show men at an equal, perhaps even more sexualized manner.

You're still talking about mens power fantasy, I remember seeing a study that compared what kind of men women and homosexual men were attracted to.
For the women it was more feminine men, while the homosexual men wanted large biceps and 6 packs.
Of course, I assume that's very generalized and I don't have any sources to back it up.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #25 on: January 17, 2013, 08:10:00 pm
But do you understand that the objectification is equal, just different? just as it would be silly to attract a man by drawing broad shouldered females with large muscles and long swords, it would be equally silly to display a male with wide hips in stripper clothing. If you look at my post above I showed 3 examples of games that I argue show men at an equal, perhaps even more sexualized manner.

But the males that are being displayed here are not to attract females, they are to attract males. Even the ninja and Sephiroth are meant to be cool with accidental sexual innuendos. After all, otherwise they would have a pose more like http://static9.depositphotos.com/1549192/1108/i/450/dep_11084593-Sexualized-Male-Body-Shot.jpg this.

I can't say much about the soul calibur guy, since I haven't seen how he behaves in the game. However, you have to admit there is about one guy to ten females that have this treatment given to them.

My sisters have been pretty vocal about their attraction to many male characters. It may not be the same sort of approach you see to female designs, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't cater to what women may look for in a man.

My sisters would lose their shit over Leon, for example. Absolutely drooled over him:

Even characters like Link tend to make the girls swoon.

I feel overly manly masculine men are to appeal to male gamers, while handsome are more what females like to see, but this is just based off of my experience as a gamer growing up in a house full of women.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #26 on: January 17, 2013, 11:53:34 pm
But do you understand that the objectification is equal, just different? just as it would be silly to attract a man by drawing broad shouldered females with large muscles and long swords, it would be equally silly to display a male with wide hips in stripper clothing. If you look at my post above I showed 3 examples of games that I argue show men at an equal, perhaps even more sexualized manner.

But the males that are being displayed here are not to attract females, they are to attract males. Even the ninja and Sephiroth are meant to be cool with accidental sexual innuendos. After all, otherwise they would have a pose more like http://static9.depositphotos.com/1549192/1108/i/450/dep_11084593-Sexualized-Male-Body-Shot.jpg this.

I can't say much about the soul calibur guy, since I haven't seen how he behaves in the game. However, you have to admit there is about one guy to ten females that have this treatment given to them.

How many homosexual male gamers do you think there are? if by " attract" you mean in the more general term, I see where you are going with it,  but it has to do more with male competition and our tendency to " size up" other males, rather than anything that could be called attraction.

If you think ninja and sephiroth points are accidental then you don't know how purposefully people design characters. I will say that in the ninja case some of it comes from the natural forms of the body that point to the pubic area, but that is the same across both genders.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a reason females read romance novels and males watch porn ( very generalized statement). Both are tailored to each sex's  desires and I believe video games do something similar in their treatment of gender. You have to think about what each different gender is after in a mate and apply that to a scale and see how sexualized they are, you can't say a male isn't sexualized just because he doesn't show a lot of skin, or isn't in a " sexy" pose because neither of those innately show power, dominance, or the like.

Edit: I should make it clear that there are a lot of exceptions to the points that I make above that I don't formally address, and that is because when you are talking about a demographic it is useless to weigh the few as equal to the many.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 12:04:52 am by Ryumaru »

Offline PixelPiledriver

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #27 on: January 18, 2013, 01:49:56 am
Quote
I think gamers are a bunch of jerks in general.
:'(

So much of this is big picture.
On some levels that is useful but on others it is not.
The game industry is not a unified being.
I know and interact with lots of people that work on games, from small indie start ups to big companies like Valve.
There is a wide variety of opinions on this matter from both genders.
As rikfuzz has said, I know just as many women that create and enjoy designs like that Tera image, and just as many men that avoid it in their art and consumption.
Personalities will always break out from generalizations.

Past or current examples of either side don't really mean that much.
The games we're pointing out are done and shipped.
Attacking the product and asking them to change wont actually accomplish anything.
Issues like this lead to a pretty solid stalemate.
It's correct, not many opinions will change here.
We can only compare thoughts and reformulate our own opinions.

But not to say this is a waste of time, the energy is just misguided.
What is useful is comparing designs for art purposes.
How can we do this different?
I don't have time to draw right now I'll have to come back with some.
A subject that's been on my educational back burner for a while is basic construction of clothing.
I have some assumptions and theories, but my girlfriend sews her own dresses and I have NO idea how that works at all.

Quote
I want to make a game, but there are a lot of steps between then and now.
The number of steps is less than you might think.
With dedicated focus you could be making a game within a couple of weeks or months.
There is a massive amount of material out there for free.
You should make games as you want them to be.
If you, or anyone, needs links or wants to ask questions I am more than happy to provide.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 09:40:16 am by PixelPiledriver »
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline Tenshi

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #28 on: January 18, 2013, 02:05:31 am
I've calmed down a lot (no, seriously) in recent years but I was entertained to see this topic near the top of my list after having not logged in for some time.
Jaeda / Jade

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #29 on: January 18, 2013, 02:35:30 am
A friend posted this online and I thought it was both relevant and refreshingly light hearted. Note how both genders appear ridiculous when you try to apply one's mannerisms to the other.

http://greatist.com/fitness/men-women-switched-roles-gym-video/#

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #30 on: January 18, 2013, 05:07:38 am
The number or steps is less than you might think.
With dedicated focus you could be making a game within a couple of weeks or months.
There is a massive amount of material out there for free.
You should make games as you want them to be.
If you, or anyone, needs links or wants to ask questions I am more than happy to provide.

Skipping all the argumentation because I frankly get disoriented and my point gets diluted the more its argued. Its nigh impossible to make anyone change their mind, especially those who have already made their mind as me and many of the others who comment on this thread. :C

I guess the main thing preventing me from making a game is lack of solid idea, lack of programming skill and lack of game art skill (which is vastly different than just general art skill.) Hoping to rectify this, but there is so much to learn on all sides that it becomes a terrifying task.
It'd probably be a better idea to make a new thread just for guidance on starting out on games?
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Offline ErekT

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #31 on: January 18, 2013, 10:43:22 am
Quote
Hoping to rectify this, but there is so much to learn on all sides that it becomes a terrifying task.

Everything's easy if you break it down into small enough chunks I think. Try and avoid looking at the big picture too much, you'll just end up fretting and procrastinating and never getting any stuff done. Instead, just start somewhere and set a goal that you can wrap your arms around in say, a day or two? When that's done, set a new small and cozy goal for yourself. And then another one etc.

On sexualization: I find it distracting and cheesy in most media. For games; less distracting, just cheesy and silly. Who the hell is able to get a boner from a set of digital boobs anyway?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #32 on: January 18, 2013, 03:25:35 pm
Who the hell is able to get a boner from a set of digital boobs anyway?

I am willing to bet plenty of people. Arousal is not just about the visual input, but about whether or not what you see and then think about triggers some sexual thoughts/fantasies. Whether something is digital, a painting, a sculpture, a photo or the real thing does not really matter in a lot of cases.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline ErekT

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #33 on: January 18, 2013, 03:40:46 pm
I agree with that, though game art for me is either too abstract, too stylized, or too close to the uncanny valley to awaken any primal instincts in me I guess. It's just as well!

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #34 on: January 18, 2013, 03:46:05 pm
Actually this thread is full of opinions that can easily be changed where the parties supporting these opinions to admit that their opinions are based solely/mostly on personal reflection and perhaps some empyrical testimony form their peer circle and involve little no proactive gender study.

This is how artists tend to think. They sit in a room and they work thoughts out and when they think they're coherent enough they test them out in their circles and if everything's fine, they move on. Your heart is in the right place if you even have a coherent opinion on matters of sex and gender, but that doesn't mean you've necessarily tested your opinions in the right way.

These are opinions that have not been challenged on even ground. They're enforced by opinion bias (what, you think your peer circle is going to challenge you on your chauvinism? They probably chose you partly because you float the same way in those issues to begin with). There's male (usually white, usually middle class, usually straight) privilege at work.

I believe most people in this thread are open-minded enough to reconsider an opinion if it's challenged on even ground. One woman in a predominately male nerd forum  fighting a losing battle is not even ground. It is not her - or anyone's really - responsibility to educate us. There are endless internet resources on the issue of feminism (to which all this deeply relates). I can suggest this for an intro http://www.shakesville.com/2010/01/feminism-101.html See how much of this is old news to you and how much strikes you as preposterous (the surest sign of unchallenged male privilege).


Edit: no post of mine in this thread will be without an image


This is how a female fighter rests after their loss. Remember, it's not just what the characters wear (though here it's clearly also the case) but how they conduct themselves to please the male gaze.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 04:40:18 pm by Helm »

Offline Lachie Dazdarian

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #35 on: January 18, 2013, 05:23:27 pm
I could spend whole day punching holes in that feminism link. What does obesity has to do with feminism? The woman obviously has issues with her weight and then claims society has issues with weight because it imposes (is contaminated with) unrealistic standards on looks, specifically on women. I stopped reading there. Obesity is a complex problem that needs to be dealt with (not ignored or even celebrated), and the problems about it are only partially related to it degrading someone's appearance. Do you see it in the animal world? But I digress...

As much as women are objectified as sex....well, objects....equally men are simplified and reduced to alpha males, self-assured, ridiculously muscular and generally...to scarface badasses.

I claim men are the object of shallow and unrealistic ideals forced by the general taste of gaming audience (of both sexes), equally as women, only of different nature.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #36 on: January 18, 2013, 05:23:49 pm
I'll side with helm on this one. Not that I'm more sensitive than anybody, I've just been exposed to it from blogs of female comic artists. Let's face it both mediums threat females just as childishly

Ryu, you're misguided, believe it or not that Hayabusa with the cock armor and the buff guy in underpants are not made for girls, most girls dont actually want guys with impenetrable frowns and overgrown muscles, proof is that you like that beefcake stuff, beefcake is most often about power symbols for MEN, it's all about MEN.

I dont have the link right now but I got this all from a female blogger, she explained what I'm telling you right now, then she proceded to post an image of Batman as she would like to see him sexualized. Picture a batman with big puppy eyes, a suit with cleavage that shows his chest hair, and he's on all four legs with his butt poking out. Do you like that image? ok....that's how girls feel whenever they see a scantily clad girl in comics/games


This is a good example, this is what a over-sexualized male would look like, this is the difference between power fantasy and sexual fantasy. Keep in mind, these are just posed sexually, it'd make you feel a lot more uncomfortable if their costume followed suit

EDIT: Now, on the feminism link et all, while skimming I only saw equal threatment being proposed, but I still want to say I do not believe fenimism is any better than machism. Not because we're already equal but because emphasizing any side of the equation is just as bad.
The goals are keeping sexualization where it belongs (in material strictly aimed at tittilation) and equal oportunity, not to defend women from horrible men. I do believe there are women who become abusive to men as a response to the treatment they get and I dont think that helps at all.

Lachie: I agree with you that the alpha male ideal is pretty damn stupid...but I'm not sure I blame the ideals of game culture on women...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:37:24 pm by Conceit »

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #37 on: January 18, 2013, 06:04:50 pm
Aren't you just reversing the roles in that picture and sexualizing the men according to how females are sexualized currently?
I don't think that works, because  there's always been the gender roles of men being dominant, protective, confident which most female erotic novels seem to cater to.
The avengers image makes them submissive in a way that clashes with the gender roles.

Not that I'm a fan of gender roles, I'd rather they just disappear.
But everything we see today is based on those roles. Including video game characters.
(helms image kinda points to this..)

Apart from Street Fighter though, japanese games and anime has a lot of characters that are sexualized from a female perspective in a way that western media never does.
But it might just be their view on masculinity, which isn't quite as strict..

[random google image search for 'bishounen']


As much as women are objectified as sex....well, objects....equally men are simplified and reduced to alpha males, self-assured, ridiculously muscular and generally...to scarface badasses.
I claim men are the object of shallow and unrealistic ideals forced by the general taste of gaming audience (of both sexes), equally as women, only of different nature.

That's very true.
And both genders continue to uphold these ideals and gender roles.
But males are still the privileged ones, especially within the gaming industry. It's hard to deny, especially if you're a man.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:19:46 pm by Seiseki »

Offline Arne

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #38 on: January 18, 2013, 06:39:40 pm
The only thing which will change anything is if more women create the things they want to see. You certainly can't make laws about ass poses. And, raising awareness on blogs and whatnot is a fart in the hurricane of male sexuality.

But, I think the "portrayal of women in games" problem is absolutely trivial next to the treatment of female gamers and the rampant rudeness in online games in general. Replace that "offensive" fan service bar maid with a little NPC kid which follows you around and asks to see your vagina, tits or gtfo, then he keeps TK'ing you, etc.

I don't think one can do much about that problem either, anyways.

And yeah, Yaoi guys are very often tall and skinny with flowing hair.  I used to be active on a paintchat with a dominantly female user base, and they almost exclusively drew these kind of guys. There is however a Yaoi genre featuring chubby-muscular men.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:46:09 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #39 on: January 18, 2013, 06:58:15 pm
haha good post Arne. I think both things are true but if we're gonna talk about wether the sexualization exists or not, better make the point clear, right?

Seiseki, that's pretty much true, but from what I gather it's not far from what women would favour.

atleast that's what I gather. I'm gonna be honest I'm just voicing someone else's point of view here

http://swegener.tumblr.com/post/18313058343/take-note-mr-dudes-are-sexualized-too-comic
that's one example.

I still cant find the batman with chest hair, but it's a lot like the Avengers poster.

The point here is that we realize and adknowledge when we're sexualizing women and when we're really drawing them as powerful  individuals, and then realize how awkward it might be for a woman to see a supposed "strong female character" when it's anything but.
The best way to show that is for us to see our male heros treated the way female "heros" are treated

and maybe this too http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #40 on: January 18, 2013, 07:52:25 pm
The point here is that we realize and adknowledge when we're sexualizing women and when we're really drawing them as powerful  individuals, and then realize how awkward it might be for a woman to see a supposed "strong female character" when it's anything but.

I think somehow in the male mind they're both connected. Like a deadly female assassin is more deadly if she also looks sexy.
It's like, when you level up a female character you give her a bigger sword and less armor..

I guess it's basically the strengths we males wish for.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #41 on: January 18, 2013, 08:09:29 pm
Also I guess I'd chime in more about what my sisters look for in female characters. When given the chance to customize a character they tend to go the route of big boobs(overly big), sexy-looking females. Well, at least my one sister does(She's 16). My other sister(17) tends to make them a bit more on the average size, but definitely not small/petite. In games like Fable 2, where females end up looking muscular when you level up and get stronger, they absolutely despised it. They hated the idea of their characters looking ugly to the point they removed all the strength points from them(removed the muscles). They wanted their girls to look attractive.

I guess this doesn't really change the fact that women are being sexualized in games, but like someone said before we are not one whole. Some developers(like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomonobu_Itagaki) obviously get a kick out of overly sexualizing women, but not all developers do. And Itagaki's most blatant sexualized game, his Xtreme Beach Volleyball game didn't do too well in sales(http://www.vgchartz.com/game/482/dead-or-alive-xtreme-beach-volleyball/), behind the aforementioned Silent Hill 3. So does sex automatically = sales? Even from a prominent developer like Team Ninja it didn't mean automatic success. It is sad to see it got the numbers it did get though. But again, I'm pretty sure Xtreme had some heavy marketing behind it. But I mean, if a game I want to play tends to sexualize females, then what? I mean, I don't find it adds anything to the game, but I still want to play the game for other reasons(Metal Gear Solid 3 for example sexualized EVA).

Also, is it just games weren't talking about here? Why target gaming when other medias have been doing it for much longer(magazines, movies and so on).

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #42 on: January 18, 2013, 09:35:12 pm
So there's a lot of talk about male power fantasy..

But what is female power fantasy?
Is it the skinny models we see in magazines?

And lots of female feminists seem to have different tastes than their average peers.
Is it simply that one side is enlightened while the other is a product of male biased media?
Can you really call that representing the opinion of the majority of women?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #43 on: January 18, 2013, 09:42:34 pm
Yes, the culture in general has this exact problem. However, we are talking about games because, by and large, this is a gaming related site. Pixel art is associated with games, and probably attracts more gamers than filmmakers or fashion writers. Just like I was told to make a game to start a trend, its only logical to talk about a medium that the audience is interested in/has a chance of influencing.

Female gamers don't exist in a vacuum, and there are many who are influenced by how their gender is portrayed. If all the females that you looked up to in games are portrayed like Lara Croft, won't that skew your worldview on what makes a character or player beautiful? Just because there are people who are happy with how things currently are doesn't mean people who AREN'T should be ignored. Again, I underline that games that advertise character creation need to give you an opportunity to play whoever the hell you want. While you can play an ugly, handsome, fat, thin, muscular, old or young males, the only option when given a female is a slight shift from petite to curvy. It may seem weird at first to think of adding an old hag into a game like Street Fighter, but I believe that's because street fighter has never had any kind of age range of females.

The thing about the fat-part in the feminism post is that people should not level hate toward others for how they look. It's the same as hating someone entirely on their skin color, height or the clothes they choose to wear.
Apparently its considered less douche if you are 'concerned for their health.' However, how do you know how healthy someone is? Besides, is it your job to tell random people that they are unhealthy? Unless you are their doctor, then I'd wager that the answer is no.



Lastly, female power fantasy.
I believe female power fantasy would often times be being able to do heroic things without having to be sexy first.
A real person performing rigorous action doesn't look 'sexy' at all times. They don't have an alluring expression, an aestethically pleasing pose (discounting the aestethic of athletics itself, which is different from 'look at my beautiful hips' beauty), free-flowing hair (or otherwise put into a pretty hairdo) nor are their boobs always visible or emphasized. Their awesomeness comes from the fact that they DO, not that they ARE.
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #44 on: January 18, 2013, 10:54:54 pm
What about being a fashion model, movie or singstar?
Because those are power fantasies we can see in games and media aimed towards women.

Unless I've got the power fantasy thing completely wrong.. xD

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #45 on: January 18, 2013, 10:56:39 pm
You do have it wrong. Those rolemodels are impressed on young women by a patriarchal model.

Offline Joe

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #46 on: January 18, 2013, 11:28:25 pm
However, how do you know how healthy someone is?
If someone is in fact obese, you can rest assured that they are not healthy.

Quote from: Dusty
Also, is it just games weren't talking about here? Why target gaming when other medias have been doing it for much longer(magazines, movies and so on).
This is an excellent point, one that I think serves this thread well.  Yes, this is a pixel art forum, and yes, the domain of pixel art largely intersects with that of video gaming.  However, the source of the problem is also the same as in other media, and I think that if this thread was distilled:

'Big boobed characters in video games' -> 'Objectification of the female in video games' -> '...in media' -> 'Objectification of the female in general'

Then I think what would best serve the thread is to discuss the cause of sexual objectification.  That's not an easy question to answer; I cannot pinpoint it but I believe it is strongly related to the patriarchal society and the male gaze.

Awesome links in this thread btw.  The feminism 101 was a very comprehensive list, offering many issues I'm familiar with but also many, many perspectives I had not considered.  Also the role switching video and the strong female characters were both hilarious.

Props to Ymedron for bringing this up, I've always wondered about it, was always turned off to video games featuring exaggerated female figures... ultimately in regards to video games the biggest turn off for me is the fact that it's completely contrived.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #47 on: January 18, 2013, 11:38:07 pm
If you want " the male gaze" to be eliminated, then there are going to have to be more females designing games, or at least creating the art for them. Of course when a heterosexual male creates something it's going to be through his eyes; arguably the entire point of art creation is to show your individual perspective of a subject. Even if I were to try and make a game through the lens of a female it would become a male's interpretation of how a female sees things.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #48 on: January 18, 2013, 11:47:15 pm
It doesn't mean the current devs can just resign and hope someone comes along and does the right thing.
I personally substitute male with white and female with black to try to evaluate the sensibleness of some statements. While its not possible to portray every aspect of female/black culture when you are not part of it, you can still work to remove the 'blackface/chicken/watermelon' level ignorance from your products, no?

The best way to do this is by treating your characters as people first, genders second. I remember someone saying that if you can swap the gender of a character without changing their role in a story, it's a good thing. (I suppose excluding specific things that require you to be a certain gender, such as pregnancy, or if you are doing historical fiction?)

Edit: Also I apologize for kind of skipping over parts of the discussion, but mostly its because I don't know what to say about it or because it was responded to better by someone else. <:U!
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #49 on: January 19, 2013, 12:59:13 am
Quote
The best way to do this is by treating your characters as people first, genders second. I remember someone saying that if you can swap the gender of a character without changing their role in a story, it's a good thing.
That's an approach I'd like to see more of in entertainment media in general. My main beef with the use of sexual imagery, unless it's a stylistic choice and/or important for telling the story, is how it usually ends up undermining it instead. The reptile part of the brain doesn't bother with stories much.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #50 on: January 19, 2013, 02:15:53 am
Quote from: Ymedron
The best way to do this is by treating your characters as people first, genders second. I remember someone saying that if you can swap the gender of a character without changing their role in a story, it's a good thing. (I suppose excluding specific things that require you to be a certain gender, such as pregnancy, or if you are doing historical fiction?)
I feel this touches on something important that hasn't really come up yet: objectification is supported (in a polarizing sense) by the existence of its opposite, actification* (which as you might expect, applies usually to males): when a character seems to exist only to act. It's hard to get rid of one if you have its opposite (An object needs to be obtained; an actor needs objects to strive to obtain). Sexually attractive but helpless/characterless female love interest + villain who has no personhood and only exists to act is a particularly common combo (often with the protagonist also being such an empty agent; so you get the set ['object', 'bad agent', 'good agent']. Presumably with the implied moral 'good agents triumph, which is represented by getting stuff' :|)

* Described midway down the page. CTRL+F "Actified" is your friend.  (TVTropes link warning)
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #51 on: January 19, 2013, 05:23:17 am
I'm glad we eventually came to the point of just designing good characters, period  :crazy:

That idea of the Actified character...that pretty much sounds like the ubiquitous "badass", right? I think a power fantasy can take many forms, there are many symbols of power and the ones we use reflect our culture....so trying to tipify what we go for in men and women...is maybe not a good idea?

honestly I dont feel like power fantasies are very exciting if that's all they are...which is why I'm happy we came to just designing a character that is person first gender second =)

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #52 on: January 19, 2013, 05:38:52 am
You do have it wrong. Those rolemodels are impressed on young women by a patriarchal model.

But isn't it  the same thing with male power fantasy?
Both women and men work hard to uphold the gender roles and old ideals.

And it seems kinda arrogant to dismiss a large portion of people for only being a product of a patriarchal society.
Even if it's the truth, it's.. weird..

How do we know what is real and what is a result of gender roles?
Why do gender roles exist in the first place? Is it due to biological differences, like testosterone levels?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #53 on: January 19, 2013, 06:35:12 am
I'd theorise a part of it comes from the ancient culture that existed in the stone-age/before that. Males were the hunters, so they had to go out. I presume this got kinda perverted into females are worthless-mindset at some point, and we are slowly improving from that.
There are a lot of females who do honestly enjoy doing girly things and that's fine.

I guess it's best to come back to that point that what a character and a person does should come from what they actually want to do rather than "we need to make sure the viewer understands this character has TITS LOOK AT THEM" and all the other points.
Also their behaviour has to make sense regarding their current situation - if a show has serious fights, then a character should not make stupid/inappropriate poses during those fights.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #54 on: January 19, 2013, 06:38:21 am
You do have it wrong. Those rolemodels are impressed on young women by a patriarchal model.

But isn't it  the same thing with male power fantasy?
Both women and men work hard to uphold the gender roles and old ideals.

And it seems kinda arrogant to dismiss a large portion of people for only being a product of a patriarchal society.
Even if it's the truth, it's.. weird..

How do we know what is real and what is a result of gender roles?
Why do gender roles exist in the first place? Is it due to biological differences, like testosterone levels?

Yes, most gender stereotypes come from the actual biological differences in genders as well as evolutionary upbringings and how they effect our behavior. For example, testosterone increases muscle gain and metabolism while estrogen does the opposite. There are also attributions of anger and increased emotionality, respectively. It is common for females to seek out good providers and leaders, enticing males into competitive efforts, while males tend to look for youthful and fertile females to mate with.

Asking " How do we know what is real" Is a very loaded question and hard to answer. Separating ourselves from our more instinctual sides can be dangerous, as we begin to segregate all parts of our mind and search for an " us" that isn't there because we've taken apart all of the pieces.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #55 on: January 19, 2013, 08:35:06 am
I could spend whole day punching holes in that feminism link.

Sometimes the language we use is very revealing.

Quote
What does obesity has to do with feminism?

It has to do with the standard of beauty enforced by the culture and media. If someone is overweight and happy with it, why should you or I have to tell that person that they're not living their life right? But we do, constantly. Every little bit of media around us enforces behaviours and discourages others, to the ultimate goal of maintaining a status quo and keeping up consumption. You can do your own research from that point and onwards, with the key words "capitalism", "patriarchy" and "standard of beauty".

Quote
The woman obviously has issues with her weight and then claims society has issues with weight because it imposes (is contaminated with) unrealistic standards on looks, specifically on women. I stopped reading there.

If that's where you stopped reading, that's where I stop replying to you. Go back and educate yourself (in that website or elsewhere on the feminist world of blogs) and then we can talk. There's nothing worse on the internet than a discussion of something so important and multi-faceted as gender politics where people just test out their private theories on each other without any research on world's worth of academia already produced on the subject in the last 200 years. It's all available to you, you have the internet. Do you have the inclination, also? Or are you just about 'punching holes'?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #56 on: January 19, 2013, 08:39:50 am
You do have it wrong. Those rolemodels are impressed on young women by a patriarchal model.

But isn't it  the same thing with male power fantasy?
Both women and men work hard to uphold the gender roles and old ideals.

Yes! The patriarchy hurts men too! Especially those that fall short of the impossible ideal of masculinity that we're force-fed.

But women have it worse. Much worse. And homosexuals even worse. And transgendered people *even* worse. And the shit just trickles down in an awful pyramid of self-loathing.

And men are in the privileged position to do more against the patriarchal model. And what do we do? We say "men have it bad too!".

Quote
And it seems kinda arrogant to dismiss a large portion of people for only being a product of a patriarchal society.
Even if it's the truth, it's.. weird..

I didn't say their whole being is to be dismissed. I am saying some motivations are very much coloured by the society that has nurtured you. A person that wants to be a super model might otherwise be a very inspiring and charismatic person. That's just the avenues of expression strongly enforced to them. Spend some time trying to think of how your life would have gone were you to have been born female, or gay. Try to spend half and hour, plot your life out, see what would have happened in pivotal points in your life. Would your parents have supported you in the same way in your endeavours? Would you have sympathetic peers?


Quote
How do we know what is real and what is a result of gender roles?
Why do gender roles exist in the first place? Is it due to biological differences, like testosterone levels?

Please educate yourself on these issues, there are many ways to do so online.







If you want " the male gaze" to be eliminated, then there are going to have to be more females designing games, or at least creating the art for them. Of course when a heterosexual male creates something it's going to be through his eyes; arguably the entire point of art creation is to show your individual perspective of a subject. Even if I were to try and make a game through the lens of a female it would become a male's interpretation of how a female sees things.

I am sorry, the 'male gaze' is not based on biological imperative, it's a cultural effect and it can be changed through awareness and positive action to that end. I do not think that this end point you and Arne arrive to where we can do nothing about it until more women make art is a safe one. We can do a lot about it by being aware about what we are drawing and why we are drawing it and be sure to infuse our art with our commentary on what we know. You can still make all the sexy art you like, just as long as its not ignorant on what it's based on, as long as it's not bereft of commentary on the issue. We shouldn't be hiding behind our finger.

And yes, ultimately we should see equal representation of all voices on sexuality and popular media, but that's going to take a long time and we can't pretend not to notice today.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 08:53:56 am by Helm »

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #57 on: January 19, 2013, 11:18:50 am
And men are in the privileged position to do more against the patriarchal model. And what do we do? We say "men have it bad too!".

Yes but at least that is acknowledging the fact.
And I'm not saying that as a diversion, it is because I have personal experience of it.
It doesn't make sense for feminism that is supposed to mean equality between sexes to only acknowledge one side.
While placing all the blame on the other. We're all following the gender roles society has imposed on us.
And it's not like a baby boy comes out of the womb and is all like "oh yeah let's enforce some gender roles!"
Women and men alike teaches children to enforce them and it is only recently that it's become a trend to try and break those norms.

Well I'm lucky that I live in Sweden where people take this seriously.
And I dare to say no other country takes it as serious.

Recently a Toy company release their catalog with images of girls using typical boy toys and boys using girl toys.
Which people in the UK thought was crazy and I can't even begin to imagine what Americans would think.

--------------

About obesity, I think it's sad that we're seeing a trend where some just give up and try accept their obesity as a good thing.
In the same way we see people being proud of being ignorant or uneducated, these are sometimes the same people.
I mean being an anorectic model is also bad for your health and a terrible ideal, but so is being proud of your obesity.
It makes me think the US is going in the completely wrong direction.

I mean here  in Sweden we have health trends, eating right, exercising. Trends for gender equality, like dads staying at home with their kid and not trying to enforce gender roles with colors, language, toys for young children.

In the US you have trends for denying science, having as many guns as possible and denying that it's a danger, denying gay people, denying obesity as a problem, eating even more unhealthy junk food. Trends usually started by religious groups, companies or lobbies for a certain industry.

I am sorry, the 'male gaze' is not based on biological imperative, it's a cultural effect and it can be changed through awareness and positive action to that end.

I believe in a deterministic world and somehow we ended up with this kind of cultural effect.
At first there wasn't culture, only biology and through it culture arose, based on biology.
Of course it can be changed, but that might just be suppressing instincts and desires. Which everyone needs to do on some level to be a civilized person.

edit: By the way, we already have a pixel piledriver thread that covers the male gaze.. (and maybe every other thread too)
Can't we start a thread for the female gaze, with sexualized men? Or would everyone be too uncomfortable with that?
As artists we should be able to draw from both perspectives.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 11:45:44 am by Seiseki »

Offline ErekT

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #58 on: January 19, 2013, 11:48:36 am
Quote
I am saying some motivations are very much coloured by the society that has nurtured you. A person that wants to be a super model might otherwise be a very inspiring and charismatic person. That's just the avenues of expression strongly enforced to them. Spend some time trying to think of how your life would have gone were you to have been born female, or gay. Try to spend half and hour, plot your life out, see what would have happened in pivotal points in your life. Would your parents have supported you in the same way in your endeavours? Would you have sympathetic peers?

I think that's a problem with this whole discussion. We are trying to generalize about gender roles in society, but even within our group of predominantly straight white middle-class males as you put it there's plenty of variation to be had. I'm from a Scandinavian country where, to put it in extreme terms, feminism has become a noble thing and men who prescribe to masculine ideals are viewed as primates. Not saying it's good or bad to turn the tables this way, just that it's probably very different from a lot of other Western countries. But what can you do? You are who you are and you can use that to your advantage to inform your worldview, or you can try to suppress the influence of your background in the name of universal understanding. And I agree you should try to go beyond your own sphere and seek to understand other perspectives. But relativism is dangerous stuff. If you take it too far then everything becomes justifiable from some perspective or another.

Yeah, I'm rambling a bit. :P

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #59 on: January 19, 2013, 01:35:08 pm
Also, I want to point out that if someone is saying "oh it's terrible how they sexualize woman in media" and I say  "Yeah, they should sexualize both genders equally" and the other person thinks that's a terrible idea, no one should be sexualized. Then it's not only about sexism.
Unless you're saying that women in general doesn't like sexualized characters and therefore any sexualization is biased towards men. In which case I think it's just about personal taste.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #60 on: January 19, 2013, 02:06:43 pm

Yes but at least that is acknowledging the fact.

This isn't an issue of facts that need to be stated at all cost. It's an issue of narratives, combating narratives struggling for attention space. When we have a discussion about the objectification of out groups in media, we do not need to insert the narrative of the objectification of the in group in media unless it informs the former.

How bad men have it does not inform sexual objectification of women in videogames.

Can we have a discussion about something that isn't directly relevant to our experience for a moment, or does everything have to be about us? How privileged are we, really?

Psychologically the "yes... but us too!" reflex has to do with when we subconsciously realise we've been shits by supporting a shitty culture and we race to find something that makes us good guys again... we have made women suffer buuuuuuuttttt... we suffer too! Everything's right inside now.

Don't do this. Stay on topic. If we're discussing feminism, we should be discussing feminism.


Quote
And I'm not saying that as a diversion, it is because I have personal experience of it.
It doesn't make sense for feminism that is supposed to mean equality between sexes to only acknowledge one side.

Why? Feminism is about women's rights advocacy. You and I - as males - are not included. We can be - and should be - pro-feminist, but we can't be feminists. We can support women in their fight for their rights in any way we can, but it will never be our fight. If they win their fight, we also gain much, but that doesn't make it our fight. Not everything has to be about us and include us. How privileged are we?

Quote
While placing all the blame on the other. We're all following the gender roles society has imposed on us.

You misunderstand most common strands of feminism - they do not blame 'us', or 'men'. They blame the patriarchy which is a structure that IS man-made but it's not made of men. It's a construct that is oppressive to all and serves the capital. You should do some reading before you describe feminism.

Quote
And it's not like a baby boy comes out of the womb and is all like "oh yeah let's enforce some gender roles!"
Women and men alike teaches children to enforce them and it is only recently that it's become a trend to try and break those norms.

Trend is an ugly word to describe [a couple of centuries of struggle.

Quote
Well I'm lucky that I live in Sweden where people take this seriously.
And I dare to say no other country takes it as serious.

Good for Sweden. You've got reading to do and people to speak before you can say YOU take it seriously, however.

Quote
About obesity, I think it's sad that we're seeing a trend where some just give up and try accept their obesity as a good thing.

That's an incredibly prejudiced thing to say. Stop using the word 'trend' (which describes fashions in popular culture) to describe the sometimes superhuman struggles minorities have to endure to get equal treatment. Here, let me put it in a different way.

"About homosexuality, I think it's sad that we're seeing a trend where some just give up and try accept their homosexuality as a good thing."

The only way to stop thinking in normative terms is to have your male privilege challenged through study and discussion with people who are out of the norm. Talk on this matter with actual feminists, gay people, proudly fat people, don't talk to some male, white, straight, middle-lower class Greek nerd on an art forum.

Quote
In the same way we see people being proud of being ignorant or uneducated, these are sometimes the same people.

Congratulations, you have equalized body types with stupidity and ignorance. That's the closest you can get to commiting murder in philosophical terms.

Quote
I mean being an anorectic model is also bad for your health and a terrible ideal, but so is being proud of your obesity.
It makes me think the US is going in the completely wrong direction.

You are not in control of where the US or anywhere else is going. If an anorexic model wants to be proud of herself, I fully support her. If a fat person wants to be proud of themselves, I fully support them. If they then change their mind and feel there's negative impact on their helath by their choices, I will fully support them then. I will not support those who hide behind normative culture as a shield and use the power of 'normal' to hurt others. We must stand with those who are weak in our societies until they are no longer weak.

Quote
I mean here  in Sweden we have [...] trends

Quote
In the US you have trends

Stop.

Quote
Of course it can be changed, but that might just be suppressing instincts and desires. Which everyone needs to do on some level to be a civilized person.

There is also the sublimation of low drives. Look it up.

Quote
edit: By the way, we already have a pixel piledriver thread that covers the male gaze.. (and maybe every other thread too)
Can't we start a thread for the female gaze, with sexualized men?

No.


Erekt,

Quote
I think that's a problem with this whole discussion. We are trying to generalize about gender roles in society, but even within our group of predominantly straight white middle-class males as you put it there's plenty of variation to be had.

Actually I do not see this variation. The reactions we've had so far are mostly luke-warm, everyone seems to be downplaying the issue. This is what privilege does, it makes us not care about the Other, at best, hate them, at the worst. And because Pixelation people are artists and introverts mostly, we do not get the outright worst. But we get indifference and 'meh' and 'nothing can be done'.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 02:08:49 pm by Helm »

Offline Ai

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #61 on: January 19, 2013, 02:15:33 pm
Also, I want to point out that if someone is saying "oh it's terrible how they sexualize woman in media" and I say  "Yeah, they should sexualize both genders equally" and the other person thinks that's a terrible idea, no one should be sexualized. Then it's not only about sexism.
True. I think it could be said to be about depersonalization, of which the most visible instance is sexism. If you have a character that flaunts their sexuality, they should do that because you have something to say or question with that. In that case the character remains person-like; they don't exist 'because sex appeal is needed', although they as a character may for example be portrayed as feeling that sex is the reason they go on living; that would be highlighting their own depersonalization of themselves, while preserving the audience's ability to understand their person-ness.

Would write more but sleep beckons. I'll see what I have to add tomorrow.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #62 on: January 19, 2013, 02:31:01 pm
Quote
I think there's a pink-haired dominatrix character in Street Fighter or Tekken now with 2/3 of her bodyweight carried in her bra and the rest in her hips.
It doesn't add much to the discussion but since someone mentioned Poison I thought I'd point out that shes trans sexual.



Note the very clear bulge in her pants.
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #63 on: January 19, 2013, 02:51:06 pm
Ok, so I'm not taking feminism seriously, but I'm also not taking hunger issues, global warming, racism and other things seriously either.
I'm aware that they exist and something should be done, but I'm not really doing much nor reading into it, but I still find it interesting and like everyone else I have an opinion.

But you can't have a feminist movement that doesn't acknowledge the problem of gender roles for both parts.
It's fair to say that one side has it worse and focus should be on them, but if you go too far you'll only make the privilege men defensive and push them away.
Which I think is shown clearly in this topic, and that doesn't help anyone, especially not the feminist struggle against the patriarchy.

When I read your response it's like you're trying to depersonalize the conversation, I thought this was about sharing opinions and thoughts.
All I hear from your side is, "These are the facts, read up on them, stop discussing your own experiences, face the facts, you are privileged"

Yes, I'm privileged, but even so I'm just a product of society like anyone else.
Do I have more responsibility because of this, well maybe, probably.

I'm not sure what kind of action or response you're trying to incite?

----------------------

As for the obese issue, you're saying that overweight people are who they are..
But it's a condition.. It's not something you're born with, like sexual preference, gender, color of your skin.
I could become an obese person if I wanted to, but I can't become homosexual or black no matter how much I want it.

I've seen people compare obesity to a handicap, and that's offensive to me. A handicapped person can't do anything about their situation.
Yet an overweight person has all the power in the world to make a change for the better.
And yes I can say that being normal weight is better, because it's healthy, there's nothing else to it.

A lot of obese people are addicted to food the same way a smoker is addicted to smoking. Yet people who smoke are being more and more discriminated against, because smoking is not a human right, neither is eating too much food, drinking too much alcohol, taking drugs.
It's simply things people do that are unhealthy.

I don't need to talk to a proud drug addict or proud alcoholic to realize it's harmful..
Because those people have, instead of dealing with their issues, simply chosen to accept them, because the struggle might be too painful.
I have personal experience of this as well.

And I would never support a person eating or starving themselves to death.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:11:08 pm by Seiseki »

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #64 on: January 19, 2013, 03:14:09 pm
Yes, you are taking none of those topics seriously if you're not reading up on them and discussing them with people who are personally invested in their solutions.

There's many types of discussion. Not all are worth having at every occasion. Some actively hurt the visibility of the cause they're discussing by muddying the waters with ill-informed opinions, tautologies and ignorance. I do not want to promote a discussion on feminism in Pixelation with no stakes; If you don't want to do any reading, you're not discussing the issue, you're discussing me and you, that's what you'll get instead of the issue: insight into the people discussing.

That's well and good, but not to the expense of important real-world stuff like that. If that's the level you want to discuss this issue on and are not interested in doing any actual reading on the subject that isn't formatted as a conversational post, then I'll bow out.

Quote
Yes, I'm privileged, but even so I'm just a product of society like anyone else.
Do I have more responsibility because of this, well maybe, probably.

I'm not sure what kind of action or response you're trying to incite?

The kind of action I am trying to incite is for you to go and do the reading involved in order to have an educated opinion on a subject that deals with the rights and future of half of this planet. It's not very complicated, what I am trying to do. What are you trying to do in this thread?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #65 on: January 19, 2013, 03:22:52 pm
A small point, there are overweight people who are actually born with the propensity to become overweight. It's not as simple as "eat less!", there are some physical illnesses that cause obesity.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #66 on: January 19, 2013, 03:26:36 pm
I have no idea what I'm doing in this thread..  ;D

I thought this was a place where you could just discuss anything from any perspective.
Are you sure you're not the one trying to enforce something you feel passionate about?

I mean, feminism is important, it's already a view that is being enforced in Scandinavia.
But so is starvation, racism, oppression, discriminations of any other forms.
And right now I feel that a lot is being done to address the issues of gender roles and equality among sexes, at least in my own country.
Stuff like democracy and rights are even more important for there to even be a voice or platform from which to work from.

But you're right when saying that this should probably be about video games.
So what's wrong with sexualizing both genders in a game like Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball, which is obviously only intended as a cheap selling point.

I'm also of the opinion that more girls need to make games, that's the only way this will ever pan out.
Since males can't see things from a female perspective and vice versa.
So the real problem lies with a lack of women in the industry and an industry and community which is hostile against women.

A small point, there are overweight people who are actually born with the propensity to become overweight. It's not as simple as "eat less!", there are some physical illnesses that cause obesity.

It doesn't really change the fact that a majority of people are overweight because of lifestyle choices.
Which is pretty much solely based on what culture you're raised in. But that doesn't make it right nor healthy.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:31:43 pm by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #67 on: January 19, 2013, 04:36:27 pm
A small point, there are overweight people who are actually born with the propensity to become overweight. It's not as simple as "eat less!", there are some physical illnesses that cause obesity.
It doesn't really change the fact that a majority of people are overweight because of lifestyle choices.
Which is pretty much solely based on what culture you're raised in. But that doesn't make it right nor healthy.

Which also does not change the fact that is THEIR choice if that is the case and nothing they should be abused for. If someone is happy with how much they weigh, that's fine. Leave them be.

Also in some cases it is not really just lifestyle choices, it has to do with what people can buy because of what they earn and in a lot of cases cheap food is not super healthy. Also there have been studies that strongly suggest that the amount of antibiotics pumped into lifestock in the US influences humans intestinal flora in such a way that more of the food will be transformed into fat.

And again, whether it is healthy does not change the fact that it is wrong to demonise people who are overweight.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #68 on: January 19, 2013, 05:13:00 pm
Tbh. I can't really fault Seiseki for not making it through that tower of text. Only someone who's predisposed to already agree with her will, which makes it difficult to objectively discuss the truth content of her various arguments. If she's trying to do PR for her/the cause, the all-caps, accusatory Besserweisser tone is almost sure to alienate those who she feels really needs to read it.

What I feel is really getting lost in this discussion though, is the feelings of the game characters themselves. They're passionately doing what they were created for but now they're being told that doing great ass poses is both shallow and offensive - and that their bodies aren't good enough!

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #69 on: January 19, 2013, 05:13:57 pm
I've never said they should be demonised.
I'm just reacting to the whole idea of being proud of something that's not good for you, no matter if it's against the norm or not.
Denying that it's a problem will only make it worse.

Of course on a personal level you can't go around judging people, but in a discussion I will say that, no it's not healthy and for your own sake you should lose weight.
If a doctor can say that to me, then I think it's a valid medical opinion.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #70 on: January 19, 2013, 05:55:47 pm
Again, it is not your problem, it is theirs. If they are happy with their situation and they did not ask you for opinions it is a dick thing to go "Hey btw, you are too fat, you should do something against that."

Just saying.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #71 on: January 19, 2013, 06:18:46 pm
I think Seiseki was provoked by that Feminism 101 link, as well as I was. Internet is full of these sort of opinions, in the form of blogs, articles or motivational pictures, where obesity is celebrated/supported/defended.

There is something weird going on in "free societies", where most of use agree that everyone is entitled to their own lifestyle (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone) and opinions, only in the same time too many believe that these opinions shouldn't exists in form of criticism of someones poor or unhealthy (in critic's opinion) life habits.

Freedom comes with a cost. And the cost is being criticized. Deal with it!

And I could get back to the original topic. I think we, in western societies, achieved almost the maximum in equalizing the right of men and women in front of the law, which is really all the state (an organized community) can do, where even women are often favored (like in child-custody disagreements). Now how we portray women and men in works of art, really shouldn't be more than a discussion of good or bad taste. Sexualized female characters are far from something we can call absolutely wrong or right. Well, some here are so sure to call that sort of thing wrong. I think they have issues. Now portraying women as evil/stupid or characters that specifically murder women as heroes would already be a worthy topic to discuss about, but we are far from anything like that predominating in our works of art.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #72 on: January 19, 2013, 06:25:08 pm
But Ptoing! What if their vice is not eating, but an insatiable urge to put big breasted women into their video game products? Poor Tomonobu Itagaki, catching so much flak :o

Lachie> Of course, freedom also means a right to ignore the criticism and roll on.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 06:27:23 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #73 on: January 19, 2013, 06:28:08 pm
I was once a proud twig, always gaming away, living at my mom's, unemployed, till an overweight foreigner who I used to tease about his weight made me work out with him. I became more confident, energetic, got a job. I met a girl, who told me I should learn to socialize more, she was very blunt about it, very bad things were said. I told her I was happy how I was, she wouldn't take it, helps me fix myself, I end up skyrocketing my career. We're going to get married.

I'm happier than I could ever have imagined thanks to people taking the effort of not letting me proudly be what I thought was fine, cause it most certainly wasn't.

Just saying.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #74 on: January 19, 2013, 06:38:49 pm
Again, it is not your problem, it is theirs. If they are happy with their situation and they did not ask you for opinions it is a dick thing to go "Hey btw, you are too fat, you should do something against that."

Just saying.

You're right, and I've never done that, nor would I..
But there's a difference between being proud of obesity specifically and just being proud in general.

We all have faults but we should not put one of those on a pedestal, like how awesome it is to drink, eat lots of fat, smoke weed or cigarettes, own a bunch of guns, play video games all night.
(I don't think either of those things are good for people or society in general)

@Arne, I didn't actually attempt to read it before.
But now that I've started reading it I can say that it's very interesting. (it's soo long though -.-)
And I can relate a lot of it to points I've been trying to make but which I think Helm sees as just an "expression of my own privilege" or a diversion.

It's especially interesting how we use words which tell how we really value women.
And I think that is the core of all issues, we don't value things associated with femininity as high as masculine ones.
But by that definition, the manliest of manly things would be two beefy gay guys as a couple. The manliness would be doubled.
I don't think anyone shares that opinion though.. :D

@Lachie, ugh, why is the attention centered on me? xD
I might have been provoked, but that's more because I don't see myself as fitting into the male norm and much less enforcing it.
As for the article itself, I found it much less provoking than this discussion has been..
Maybe because it also actually confirms and includes the male side of things which Helm seems to be completely opposed to.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 06:50:49 pm by Seiseki »

Offline Ashbad

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #75 on: January 19, 2013, 07:06:09 pm
I was once a proud twig, always gaming away, living at my mom's, unemployed, till an overweight foreigner who I used to tease about his weight made me work out with him. I became more confident, energetic, got a job. I met a girl, who told me I should learn to socialize more, she was very blunt about it, very bad things were said. I told her I was happy how I was, she wouldn't take it, helps me fix myself, I end up skyrocketing my career. We're going to get married.

I'm happier than I could ever have imagined thanks to people taking the effort of not letting me proudly be what I thought was fine, cause it most certainly wasn't.

Just saying.

I was about to point out that grey area between "being a dick" and keeping things silent, but I think this is a wonderful example of it -- "encouragement", which is definitely applicable when it comes to social and health issues.  Happy to hear about the marriage, g'luck mate!

I'm not sure this grey area exists in other situations, though -- the situation being homosexuality, transsexuality, etc., since there's nothing to "encourage".  People can't change aspects like sexuality, and whether or not you agree with what they are, you should allow them to be proud of who they are, since they can't change it and being a dick hurts everyone.

So I'm not sure that states of being, such as Obesity and Homosexuality, can really be grouped together as easily as some think.

I think that this "Obesity" discussion is getting really off-topic, though -- perhaps I should tie this back to women with large breasts in vidya (the whole feminism discussion isn't off-topic, I just don't really have anything to directly address it right now, so I'm skipping over it a bit.)

I think the idea of having a character that works as either male or female is a wonderful way to describe a good character in many settings.  Obviously, there will be key aspects of gender that have an impact on a story, such as the ability to become pregnant.  As another exception, girls that strive "just to be" DO exist in the real world, and the implementation a few 2 dimensional characters here and there does make things more interesting.  i.e., having 10 female characters that are all waist-size 0 with Double-Ds that have a constant urge to bed a (male) protagonist is boring, stupid, cliched, and trivializes women as a whole.  However, having 8 or 9 females that act like normal people and having 1 or 2 boring "strive to be" female characters would be interesting.

I also don't think it's bad to mix a little bit of sexualization into a 3-dimensional female character.  By a "little bit", I mean "recognizing she's female and may be feminine", without forcing her to be the exact opposite of the "ideal women" in modern vidya.  A good character example:



Ritz wears pink clothing, a cliche of effeminacy.  She has somewhat-apparent cleavage, with bronze cups around her breasts, but they're rather small and they definitely don't jump out at you at a first glance.  She's also wearing something that's between a skirt and actual armor, which is also somewhat "feminine".  On the other hand, she fights as a warrior, and during the entirety of the game she's in, she's not objectified as a sexual target whatsoever -- she's treated like the warrior she is.  You could easily make her a young boy instead of a young girl, and she'd be just as effective.  It's an interesting combination, and I think it was actually pretty great.  I'd love to see less women characters who are polarized to be either "extremely attractive and only strive to be beautiful" or "extremely defiant of society's expectations, dresses just like a man 100% of the time, hates anything effeminate"; I'd love to see more characters that are more naturally between the two, with an additional sprinkling of interesting characterization on top.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 11:20:34 pm by Ashbad »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #76 on: January 19, 2013, 11:12:58 pm
Ritz wears pink clothing, a cliche of effeminacy.  She has somewhat-apparent cleavage, with bronze cups around her breasts, but they're rather small and they definitely don't jump out at you at a first glance.  She's also wearing something that's between a skirt and actual armor, which is also somewhat "feminine".  On the other hand, she fights as a warrior, and during the entirety of the game she's in, she's not objectified as a sexual target whatsoever -- she's treated like the warrior she is.  You could easily make her a young boy instead of a young girl, and she'd be just as effective.  It's an interesting combination, and I think it was actually pretty great.  I'd love to see less women characters who are polarized to be either "extremely attractive and only strive to be beautiful" or "extremely defiant of society's expectations, dresses just like a man 100% of the time, hates anything effeminate"; I'd love to see more characters that are more naturally between the two, with an additional sprinkling of interesting characterization on top.
(your image is broken btw)

Nice example, that really demonstrates that a character can have sexual aspects without being sexualized. It's unclear to me whether people are really understanding this in this, that sexualization is like placing the character behind an observation screen where we can 'observe them being sexual' (note the distance of point of view), whereas sexuality is a natural part of a person that comes up some, but certainly not all, of the time. A sexualized character is one that is meant to be related to primarily or exclusively sexually. A non sexualized character could talk about sex and you could notice them sexually on occasion, but they also have plenty of other things in their life*. There's a whole bunch of other stuff relating to this in feminist literature -- for example talking about how men are expected to 'obtain' sex with women while simultaneously othering them and rejecting feminine traits.

* The whole reason sexualization is bad being, of course, that it encourages the opposite sex to think of people of that sex as objects for them to manipulate, as 'others' who are somehow less than human.

I can agree that less polarized characters are far more interesting. I think that the reason extremely polarized characters are common is because it cheaply generates drama. (ie. we need to raise writing standards in order to actually get a significant increase in the amount of balanced characters)

Quote
I thought this was a place where you could just discuss anything from any perspective.
Are you sure you're not the one trying to enforce something you feel passionate about?
I think he is. And that's good. A thread where "you could just discuss anything from any perspective" is going nowhere, will reach no definite conclusion, no-one derives any lasting benefit. If you've ever chaired a meeting you know this: if people don't have a clearly delimited topic and standards of behaviour, they'll just bandy words until your meeting is well past over.
Assuming that we want this thread to accomplish something at all rather than merely functioning as an echo chamber, a definite goal is something that it needs.

Quote
we don't value things associated with femininity as high as masculine ones.
Or more precisely, the idea is that masculinity is default, femininity is special (and also 'special' - not worthy of taking seriously).
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #77 on: January 19, 2013, 11:56:19 pm
I don't think you can come up with solid conclusions or anything that everyone will agree on through a discussion like this..
But that doesn't make it any less interesting.

And pointing at the thread starter..
So, what do you guys and gals say? I'd like to read a little more about your opinion :)

I pointed out that gamers are jerks and I think this is a bigger issue because it affects everyone and especially minorities and those unprivileged.
Kids these days are raised behind a screen of anonymity, where they can say anything without being punished for it.
This in turn will keep a lot of women from gaming and the gaming industry, which in turn leads to the male bias being maintained.

Also, reading the feminism 101 article. I think that an approach that talks about mens inherent privilege and subsequent responsibility won't get a very positive response from the privileged white males whom the blame is being placed upon. Nothing in this situation is fair, no one choses to be born into a certain gender there's no way to get rid of this privilege.
Gah, so many conflicting feelings...

@Ashbad, that seems like a pretty standard image of japanese lolita ideal common in games and anime. The facial expression suggests that she's a typical tsundere, strong on the outside but fragile on the inside. At least the Japanese always apply a personality, even if they're based on certain archetypes.
I'm not sure how this should be analyzed from a feminist perspective. But I'm willing to bet it's not going to be very favorable.
And Japan is known for having a strict and homogeneous society with very traditional gender roles. On the other hand, anime and other japanese cultural expressions are nothing like japanese society, but a product of it nonetheless.

I like Japanese shoujo anime/manga and yaoi culture for breaking the norm though. But that's because they're made for women, usually by women.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 12:26:13 am by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #78 on: January 20, 2013, 12:23:24 am
Let me just say, I am very glad this conversation is taking place here. I don't wish to contribute much at the moment, but here is a link about privilege that some here might find useful: http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146
The nice thing about this is that it addresses individually a lot of the common misunderstandings about these topics (privilege, feminism, gender, power, etc.) in an easily-navigable way.

As an example:

Also, reading the feminism 101 article. I think that an approach that talks about mens inherent privilege and subsequent responsibility won't get a very positive response from the privileged white males whom the blame is being placed upon. Nothing in this situation is fair, no one choses to be born into a certain gender there's no way to get rid of this privilege.

A quote from the article that addresses this exact point:
Quote
You Aren’t Bad for Having Privilege
You don’t have any control over the privilege you were given, and we get that. It’s important for you to get that, and get that we aren’t saying that, and then realize what that means when combined with your privilege to pretend that you aren’t privileged. Confused? Simply put: you aren’t bad for having privilege, but not being able to give up your privilege is not a ‘get out of jail free’ card for bad behaviour. So, what, then, to do about it? Well, finding a balance between accepting your privilege and fighting against it is not easy. I still struggle with it on a daily basis. But, one way to start is to listen to and take feedback from non-privileged groups. They are a good judge of how your actions come across to them. Not everyone’s opinions will be the same, but eventually you’ll come out with some semblance of balance that works for you and those around you.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #79 on: January 20, 2013, 12:43:43 am
Accept Your Privilege :'( Learn to Listen Rather Than Speak - Err.. :-[ :-X You Aren’t Bad for Having Privilege :)
Don’t Make It About You - Too late..  :-[ Intent Isn’t an Excuse - Aww.. :(

I can't handle this rollercoaster of emotions... xD

Edit: On a more serious note.
I can clearly see the points Helm was making now. The points on that site is like a check list to me which directly relates to my posts in this thread.
But I can't fully accept it still, it's like some kind of anti-norm, anti-opression that turns into another type of oppression suffocating the way I'm used to express myself.
The long list of "rules" makes me not want to engage in these kinds of topics, rather than keep breaking the rules, it totally kills any curiosity I used to have and it feels completely depressive.
Don’t Make It About You - And I did it again.. ::)

As helm points out, as privileged males we can only have a privileged male conversation.
But I don't want to see the world in black and white like this. Maybe I'm just naive.
I should have taken the blue pill...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 01:31:02 am by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #80 on: January 20, 2013, 02:40:29 am
First of all I have to say that Im very thankful to Helm for standing up on this, I would have probably left the discussion a lot quicker if this was not the case.

And now.
Quote
But I can't fully accept it still, it's like some kind of anti-norm, anti-opression that turns into another type of oppression suffocating the way I'm used to express myself.
The long list of "rules" makes me not want to engage in these kinds of topics, rather than keep breaking the rules, it totally kills any curiosity I used to have and it feels completely depressive.
As the site points out, people who are privileged (I actually don't like that word, tumblr social justice retards have ruined it for me. But I shall use it.) are used to having their opinions heard and accepted as the norm. That's why it is important to have that checklist - to remind that the discussion can't always be in your favor.

Why isn't this thread oppressive if you can't express your opinion that feminism is not that big of an issue? (which is what I gather you are trying to say?)
Because you can make a new thread right now, saying exactly that and I can guarantee you that you won't get called out on that. Or if you do, you'll have way more defenders than Helm and others have had. Unless society takes a radical turn, your opinions and ideas are going to be taken seriously in most situations regarding this. You won't get threatened or laughed at, and you won't get silenced or feel stupid for responding to a thread about your issues.
Also my art tumblr: ymedronart.tumblr.com

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #81 on: January 20, 2013, 03:28:48 am
As the site points out, people who are privileged (I actually don't like that word, tumblr social justice retards have ruined it for me. But I shall use it.)

It is definitely a problem when people callously belittle others in places like Tumblr under the guise of "social justice." It gives a bad name to a good cause. That said, "privilege" is the academic language and the most convenient one to describe a thing that exists. I think the best way to cancel out poor use of the word is to use it properly and in informed discussion. So thank you for continuing to use it despite its bad reputation.

And yeah I am really glad that Helm and others are standing up on this issue.

As helm points out, as privileged males we can only have a privileged male conversation.
But I don't want to see the world in black and white like this. Maybe I'm just naive.

I'm not sure if I'm getting your message here—and please let me know if I'm wrong—but I think you're saying that it seems somewhat hopeless or worthless to have this conversation, as a privileged male. I think that's definitely not true.
Again I'm really just repeating the article here, but once you have accepted your own privilege, you actually can make a big difference by drawing attention to issues within your own peer group. I think that's what Helm and others have been doing quite successfully in this thread. Remember that as a privileged person, you are automatically given a voice that those without privilege are not. If you can help call others in your peer group on bad behavior—whether that might be game developers or members of an internet message board—you are helping. (And to repeat myself from my reply to Ymedron: you have to be careful that you are not using it as a way to get power over people by belittling them, but instead trying to introduce people to ideas that they may not have been exposed to previously.)

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #82 on: January 20, 2013, 08:10:28 am
Seiseki, it takes time to wrap one's mind around the issue of privilege and everyone I know (hardline feminists included) has to stop and readress their privilege-related behaviour once in a while. So that feeling you're feeling now will settle, but it won't pass - the nice thing about humans is that they can't unlearn. So you now are seeing a set of tools through the mist that are very useful but whose usage comes at a high cost. There are artifacts of modernity - of every-day life that make absolutely no sense if they're not approached with a similar toolset. When things happen around you that you can't process usefully, they're even more hurtful to you. Now you will start spotting privilege around you and you will start to see who the patriarchical model is benefitting. But when you point it out you will be branded as an Other as well.

This is a long process and depending on your age and vocation and propensity for speaking with those outside your peer group it may even be longer. What I do suggest, if you do have free time, is to read on gender studies and if you have the courage, to attend any feminist meeting that is in your area where you are in Sweden. From the first you will come to terms with a theoretical framework, extra tools to explain how we got to where we are and where to go from here and from the latter you will see the human face of struggle. From feminism to humanism and from humanism to anticapitalism is a good way to structure these studies because there is a larger class struggle issue at work.

These studies are in my opinion are as important as anything you can learn about pixel art here. They inform everything we do here. Think about it: Pixelation is an open service, people take time out of their busy lives to help others regardless of sex, age (mostly), nationality, sexual identity or politics and all they ask for in return is that if they benefit, they try to help others too. This is quite against the rules of the market and Pixelation could have been monetized a long time ago and could possibly have made a little money for Sven who runs the server. Why do you think we do not do this?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #83 on: January 20, 2013, 11:28:46 am
Why isn't this thread oppressive if you can't express your opinion that feminism is not that big of an issue? (which is what I gather you are trying to say?)

Yeah, I understand that I'm coming across like that..
But feminism is not something new to me, I take a lot of it for granted. But I was only aware of some of the underlying structures in society.
This tool used to describe privilege however, it might be needed for any kinds of change to be made. But no two persons will have the same amount of privilege.
I want to believe that people are individuals first and that you can't take a whole group and force them into the same box.. (obviously every has certain kinds of prejudice, myself included)
So of course I'm having a problem with this kind of mindset.
And I've never been engaged in the feminist movement, but I've always respected it and agreed on the idea of both genders being equals.

You won't get threatened or laughed at, and you won't get silenced or feel stupid for responding to a thread about your issues.

I was going to post something really personal but.. "Don’t Make It About You" So let me say that no, I'm not the norm, far from it.

So.. let's get this back on topic.

In japan they have segregated anime and manga into shoujo/shounen, girl/boy.
Does this increase sexism and enforce gender roles, or is it a way to appeal to both sides at the same time?
Should video game appeal to one of the sexes at a time?
Should they appeal to both sexes at the same time, or none of the sexes?

This is what I'm really curious about.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 11:47:48 am by Seiseki »

Offline Ai

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #84 on: January 20, 2013, 01:14:21 pm
Quote
Should they appeal to both sexes at the same time, or none of the sexes?
Are you talking about sexualization, or sexiness? Because, as Helm implied before and I tried to reinforce, you can have a sexy character without having them be sexualized. It's all about whether they remain a 'person'; that any sexiness is for reasons relating to who they are as a character and not merely because 'more sexiness sells more'. It's not an issue of who to appeal to, but HOW to implement that appeal. Do you take the cheap, cultural-default path "it's sex, it's automatically compelling and doesn't have to make sense" or actually give your characters, regardless of sex and gender, lives in which sex is only one part? And have the camera look at the parts of the characters that tell the story, rather than the parts that the audience is presumed to have a prurient fascination with?

Also it's very hard to ask that kind of question (.. 'both sexes' 'or none') in a way that doesn't alienate bisexual and/or transgender people. Just to be clear, yes I am offended. But more importantly this is another example of privilege: heterosexual privilege. The context of your question implies that bisexual and transgender people don't exist, and this implication largely passes without challenge.
All these different factors and privileges that can be involved highlight how confusing and difficult trying to say things in a fair and accurate way can be.  I say that to highlight that the question of how feminist you -actually- are, is certain to have a much more complex answer than any you have yet arrived at.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #85 on: January 20, 2013, 01:21:12 pm
In Japan they have segregated anime and manga into shoujo/shounen, girl/boy.

For the record, I am male, and I watch pretty much every anime, as long as it's actually good.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #86 on: January 20, 2013, 01:51:40 pm
Also it's very hard to ask that kind of question (.. 'both sexes' 'or none') in a way that doesn't alienate bisexual and/or transgender people. Just to be clear, yes I am offended. But more importantly this is another example of privilege: heterosexual privilege. The context of your question implies that bisexual and transgender people don't exist, and this implication largely passes without challenge.
All these different factors and privileges that can be involved highlight how confusing and difficult trying to say things in a fair and accurate way can be.  I say that to highlight that the question of how feminist you -actually- are, is certain to have a much more complex answer than any you have yet arrived at.

I'm Sorry and I'm not following you at all on this one..
I thought bisexual people wouldn't have a specific preference due to liking both sexes and transgender people would identify with one of the sexes or none.
(sorry if this is offending)

Offline Basketcase

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #87 on: January 20, 2013, 04:03:39 pm
In japan they have segregated anime and manga into shoujo/shounen, girl/boy.
Does this increase sexism and enforce gender roles, or is it a way to appeal to both sides at the same time?

It's clearly reinforcing gender roles. By making a show 'for boys' and not girls (and vice-versa), you're setting up different expectations for the audiences. This holds true even if the company is spending the same amount of resources on stuff for the opposite genders. Same story with toy companies. Hell, clothes companies too.

It certainly is a way to appeal to both sides. But perhaps it is more interesting to ask whether it's effective compared to the alternative: producing universal content aimed at no specific gender. That's hard to judge. You can't run a controlled experiment. But you can infer from some theoretical considerations. It's a given that presently, gender roles in children are quite well established. So girls and boys actually, generally, have different interests. Therefore targeting those markets specifically should yield profitable results. I've skipped some steps in the logic, but I don't think my suppressed premises are too controversial.

So, with that established, you may find it more interesting to ask whether it is ethically correct to target girls and boys with entertainment based on gender, whether gender roles can be effectively eroded with entertainment-propaganda, and the desirability of doing so, etc.

So, pixel art!

How sexist would you say the oeuvre of prominent pixel craftsman Paul Robertson (nsfw) is? :D

(Damn, I wrote more than I had really intended. What I mostly really wanted to do was just post the above link. Make sure you go though all pages, 5 or so total!)
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #88 on: January 20, 2013, 04:15:58 pm
How sexist would you say the oeuvre of prominent pixel craftsman Paul Robertson (nsfw) is? :D








I assume this was a rhetorical question?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 04:17:46 pm by Ashbad »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #89 on: January 20, 2013, 04:31:11 pm


Well, DQ's Jessica already looks like that in the game, and is bouncing up and down on an angry nikuman here. That's rather cute :-X

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #90 on: January 20, 2013, 04:48:47 pm
I assume this was a rhetorical question?
Nope. Since you picked those out specifically, do you think they are particularly sexist?

Compared to his other works, lol.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #91 on: January 20, 2013, 05:04:53 pm
Nope. Since you picked those out specifically, do you think they are particularly sexist?

Compared to his other works, lol.

I picked those out because they had less explicit breasts and phalluses drawn all over them compared to the rest :lol:

I don't think that having a few sprites of women like that is at all sexist (again, women with abnormally inflated breasts do exists within the masses of normal human beings), but the fact that essentially every single woman on his blog is drawn like that is a lot more questionable.  In addition, most of the males are drawn with the previously discussed "power fantasy" of big muscles and such.

That being said, that blog link was actually a pretty good example to throw into here, now that I've thought about it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 05:06:37 pm by Ashbad »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #92 on: January 20, 2013, 05:17:45 pm
I think it's good to get some concrete examples here.
How would you give criticism from a feminist standpoint?

Does it matter for what purpose the character is drawn?
I mean he's obviously drawing for himself and his peers, at least subconsciously?
But with those huge.. well.. I doubt it's actually subconsciously..

So is this kind of art a problem or is the problem that it is too common?
It is a bit ridiculous but it is also a style, even if it's a sexist style.

Where can the line be drawn between sexism and taste?
If a game sexualizes men and female in the same way, doesn't it come down to taste?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 05:26:38 pm by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #93 on: January 20, 2013, 05:53:09 pm
Lots of Robertson's stuff there seems to be fan art, just for fun. The girl in tank top and hotpants is for a commercial game.

It's all in a distinctive style, and the big boobs are a constant motif. Plus the superhero dudes and ultraviolence. I infer: he draws what he likes, and doesn't give a damn who he alienates. It's for him and other men with tastes developed from a healthy diet of videogames and anime (like me).

But I don't think he's gonna put dickmonsters in Mercenary Kings. Might be interesting to ask Tribute (the developer) who their game is for. I think they have commercial goals that will force Paul to restrain himself somewhat. Perhaps with the right tactical approach, some social justice-minded people could convince Tribute to make him tone it down some more, and test how truly 'independent' they are. Who's up for kicking a hornets' nest?

Where can the line be drawn between sexism and taste?

Why does a line need to be drawn? Can't tastes be sexist?

If a game sexualizes men and female in the same way

Gotta stop you right here. How is that even possible, given that men and women are sexualised differently, even when you do the same things to them (e.g. dress both a man and a woman in a speedo)?
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #94 on: January 20, 2013, 06:11:32 pm
Sexualising men and women in the same way, as in, both evoke the same sense of lust or whatever it is supposed to evoke, rather than men being the heroes and women being the fuckdolls. (excuse my language but getting kinda frustated in having to say this over and over again)
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #95 on: January 20, 2013, 06:30:00 pm
Sexualising men and women in the same way, as in, both evoke the same sense of lust or whatever it is supposed to evoke, rather than men being the heroes and women being the fuckdolls. (excuse my language but getting kinda frustated in having to say this over and over again)

But what does that actually mean in practice?
Everyone has different tastes.

And I've also asked this several times, would this be equal for both sexes?

Quote
Why does a line need to be drawn? Can't tastes be sexist?

Of course taste can be sexist, like a style can be sexist..
But if you don't like sexualized characters, neither women nor men, then you don't like that style no matter what.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 06:31:56 pm by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #96 on: January 20, 2013, 06:36:14 pm
Well, if it's in a game or a comic book, then you can consult someone else. If it's for yourself, I suppose you can disregard anyone's opinions. But it'd still be more courteous to try and think about it for a bit.
Basically when something is specifically made for public consumption, you need to think harder than when you do something for yourself.

Once in the past I was frustated with Oblivion mods because almost all of the improved texture mods required a nsfw female texture mod that basically stripped away their underwear and made a highly detailed vagina. I posted on the forum expressing this fact, but the thread was quickly closed and I was told that I am not allowed to criticize modders.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #97 on: January 20, 2013, 07:02:29 pm
The lust evoked would be different depending on the sexuality of the beholder, no? I think more visual examples would help, for me at least. Here's something with western comic dudes.

They look ridiculous. But are they really an example of the hypothetical case in question; does this generally appeal to heterosexual women comic readers? I don't know. I don't think that was the intent behind this... fan art, let's call it. It was drawn to point out, to men, something along the lines of the ridiculousness and gratuitousness of sexy posing, costumes etc. for women comic characters. Seeing these remixes (not these I linked in particular, but others in the same vein) and reading the accompanying commentary has made me more aware of sexualisation in media. But it hasn't made it look just as ridiculous or unappealing.

What was my point again?

Would a comic book with both the parody effeminate sexy dudes and ordinary sexualised women heroes be sexist? Is that even a relevant example? Buggered if I know.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #98 on: January 20, 2013, 07:20:46 pm
The point of that was originally to showcase how ridiculous and stupid the poses looked. They originated from criticism on female posing that actually has no sense and isn't really sexy, either. (Which comes from comic book artists only learning from other comic books, which leads to this hideous cycle)

I don't think people who are attracted to women have such singular tastes either - if this equal sexualization took place, purely in the interest of satisfying the entire audience, then they would have to have all the different body types present. People can like muscular, chubby or thin women, just like they can like muscular, chubby or thin men.



Slightly off the sexualization mark, but I was thinking about pokemon. Basically, it allows for one male, and one female. This is equal I think , both females and males have equal exposure.



note: also notice that Im a single person and not representing the interests of the entire female or feminist community - so please take that into consideration. Just in case.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #99 on: January 20, 2013, 07:39:09 pm
I think it would be a good thing if women started drawing stuff like this..
Women have sexuality too, why shouldn't they be able to express it the same way men do?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #100 on: January 21, 2013, 12:07:16 am
Also it's very hard to ask that kind of question (.. 'both sexes' 'or none') in a way that doesn't alienate bisexual and/or transgender people. Just to be clear, yes I am offended. But more importantly this is another example of privilege: heterosexual privilege. The context of your question implies that bisexual and transgender people don't exist, and this implication largely passes without challenge.
All these different factors and privileges that can be involved highlight how confusing and difficult trying to say things in a fair and accurate way can be.  I say that to highlight that the question of how feminist you -actually- are, is certain to have a much more complex answer than any you have yet arrived at.

I'm Sorry and I'm not following you at all on this one..
I thought bisexual people wouldn't have a specific preference due to liking both sexes and transgender people would identify with one of the sexes or none.
(sorry if this is offending)

Well, it seems I may have misunderstood what you said.

I really just wanted a platform with which to say there's more to feminism, and in particular to privilege, than the obvious things you think of when you think of equality; working out how feminist you are is something that takes a lot of re-assessment before you can get an accurate picture. Because my perception was that you too easily said "yeah, I'm acceptably feminist".

I don't actually care much if you offended me (that's why I tried to move on quickly); It's just comforting to be able to say that I'm offended re: bisexual erasure in a context where it won't be outright dismissed.

re transgender: Is that what you meant by 'none'? In that case you are more subtle than I  :)

Quote
drawing stuff like this

Not sure if serious. These seem to be parodical*, on rather the same level as this character  . I think the most common-denominator type sexualization of men for women's eyes is probably yaoi (a genre of manga), which IIRC has femme-y guys acting somewhat like stereotyped women, with plenty of gratuitous posing but not so much ridiculous posing. Someone posted a page that could very well be from a yaoi manga earlier in this thread.

* as if the username 'themarysue' wasn't enough of a hint  :lol:

Personally, the posing and expressions found in that image repel me equally whether applied to males or females. It's just 'absurd, why would you do that, who would actually find that sexy?'. I guess possibly people go 'Well I don't know what's -generally- sexy, I should take cues from playboy/playgirl and sexualized comic imagery' and then take those cues up to 11. Which just implies that the problem is an elitist and alienated culture surrounding sex and sexuality. I feel like I'm talking in circles here.

Quote from: Ymedron
I don't think people who are attracted to women have such singular tastes either - if this equal sexualization took place, purely in the interest of satisfying the entire audience, then they would have to have all the different body types present. People can like muscular, chubby or thin women, just like they can like muscular, chubby or thin men.
cf. harem manga. (not sure if there is a equivalent with males -- possibly certain types of shoujo manga.). I can't think of any western examples at all, though I'm sure someone can correct that.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #101 on: January 21, 2013, 06:36:23 am
Well, there is harem manga for both sexes..?
It's hard to talk about this since I myself am asexual and don't even experience sexual attraction hurrdurr. :C!

It seems anime and manga are a lot better at being geared for women, though it still has fairly extreme objectification in some of the series. I think each series having pretty much one author rather than being a property of the publishing company that gets its writers and drawers changed periodically has a lot to do with it. (A western comic publisher is a lot more wary about trying anything new, while a manga publisher gets so many potential comics that they can allow them to try out new things, and just let the commercial selection take its' course.)
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #102 on: January 21, 2013, 07:52:40 am
It's near impossible to make art that touches on human drama without having sexist tropes in there. Because they exist in real life, not just in depictions of us in the media. But the thing is about meta-context, does the artist know what they're doing by using these tropes or are they just carrying on the cliches to appeal to the 'hah, I know this, therefore I like it!' reflex of the audience.

People can't help what they find sexy, we are informed by culture and kinks are kinks. Nobody is calling out for people to stop finding superheroines sexy in those absurd poses, if they do find them sexy already. That audience exists. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be criticism on the metacontextual level about what these images mean. Brave artists give audiences more than the bargained for, successful artists give audiences exactly what they asked for while making them think it's more than they bargained for.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #103 on: January 21, 2013, 05:30:04 pm
Just stumbled on this article by a HR person at EA:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeswomanfiles/2013/01/18/women-and-video-gamings-dirty-little-secrets/

TL;DR; as I gather: Not enough girl nerds.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #104 on: January 21, 2013, 06:11:24 pm
The comments seem to tell a different story - female developers getting turned away from AAA companies in favor of similarly skilled men, subtle (or not so) hostility (references toward the dead island ad with the headless bikini torso?)
I like the way she kept telling that women are the one who need to change. As usual, isn't that the problem in every place? Why can't women stop being so uptight and stop complaining!

Yeah.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #105 on: January 21, 2013, 06:30:37 pm
Quote
TL;DR; as I gather: Not enough girl nerds.

Seriously, that is what you gathered as the core of the issue?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #106 on: January 21, 2013, 06:52:04 pm
A lack of diversity is always a problem in any company or organization, even this forum..
I don't trust that article though, especially coming from a huge corporation like EA, it's hard to speak freely about an industry you are a part of, especially as a minority.

I like the way she kept telling that women are the one who need to change. As usual, isn't that the problem in every place? Why can't women stop being so uptight and stop complaining!

I think that is her being diplomatic and in the end it is women that need to apply for the jobs by their own choice and not someone elses.
Although, a lot can be done to ease that choice and make it more appealing.

Quote
Rather than blame the majority just because they are the majority, I believe the solution starts with us – women.
Isn't that like removing all responsibility from a privileged group?
I want to believe that but damn, helm you have ruined me :(
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 07:09:37 pm by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #107 on: January 21, 2013, 07:03:40 pm
Maybe you misunderstood, perhaps deliberately (if the confrontational "seriously" is any indication). I attempted to summarize the article, not my own opinion.

As for my own opinion, it is not fully formed, because I'm not fully informed. I can can entertain ideas of why things are the way they are, if you'd like. If many groups of females had started game companies in the 80's and 90's because they thought computers and Dungeons and Dragons was awesome, things would've looked different. How about that? (It's a sort of truism, of course.)

« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 07:13:50 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #108 on: January 21, 2013, 07:12:14 pm
Quote
female developers getting turned away from AAA companies in favor of similarly skilled men
It's true.
You can be turned down for a job if you have the EXACT same skill set.
There are many other factors to hiring.
The interview, portfolio, budget, personality and sometimes even Myers Briggs type are all considered.

Team conflict is the number one killer of games internally.
NST (nintendo of america) spent close to a million dollars on a project that was canceled not too long ago because of unresolved team conflict.
Most employers will Google your name, and any screen names, check your face book, read your comments etc.
If they find anything that they think shows that you might not play well with others, which is completely subjective, they will not hire you.

If you're applying for a programming position there is almost always an on the spot programming test.
Some are very detailed with difficult questions.
The structure of the answers you give matters, whether they are correct or not.
You could give a wrong answer, but if they like it more than the persons next to you, that actually got it correct, they will hire you over them.

Where I studied almost half of each artist class are women.
While each programming class only had about 0-8 women.
The drop out rate was 50%, including everyone, so the numbers could go even lower.
On the programming side, those girls that stayed almost all of them became team leads (producers) worked on successful projects and were hired as producers at decent companies with decent starting salaries.
A few work as devs but it was definitely more rare.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #109 on: January 21, 2013, 07:19:04 pm
If many groups of females had started game companies in the 80's and 90's because they thought computers and Dungeons and Dragons was awesome, things would've looked different. How about that?

This is why gender roles are bad..
Women were dealt a shitty hand from the start, guys took all the fun and nerdy stuff, while women were left with everything the men didn't want to do.
As if that isn't bad enough, now men are taking over the womens space, just look at the bronies ;)

Offline jengy

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #110 on: January 21, 2013, 07:25:03 pm
I find feminism, as a woman, very confusing.

There always attempts to neuter female sexuality when, if you are a sexually satisfied woman, you love sex and being sexy, you are comfortable with those two things, and can appreciate it.

Some people believe big-breasted women to be offensive. However, ALL of art and media (movies, books, and games) is skewed to be context sensitive.

Rarely do writers use main characters in books that are ugly, despite the fact that ugliness is just another variable of appearance, another shade to be chosen from a palette, and can be used to promote an idea or character identity. There are rarely cries against this practice.

I do agree that artists must do things intentionally. If ugly is your intention, if you have motivation for it, then that is great. Ugly things are incredibly interesting. But there always needs to be active thinking by both consumer and artist. It’s shallow thinking that leads to exploitation of any group.

One rarely hears complaints from feminists about extraordinarily pretty everyone in movies tends to be (men, women, and children alike). Attractiveness is apparently divorced from sexuality in this mindset. But sexualilty becomes vilified rather than shallowness. 

I believe what we should do is teach others to ignore media, and it for what is, and embrace all forms, and think intelligently about what we consume.

Porn is not inherently wrong, but in a negative light it can be seen as two people objectifying themselves. However, in the end it is a sexual aid that can be spun into a positive thing (jobs for porn stars, crews, directors, something for your poor old grandpa to watch).

And, if the actor is taught to be a strong minded person, s/he will empower themselves with their abilities and see their “art” for what it is, and continue to respect/empower themselves how they see fit. But it is true, they must be of a conscious and intentional mindset when they make this career their life.

It’s true that an artist that draws a sexy lady may become sexy-lady driven after a while. If that is their pleasure, then let them be. However, it can be said that drawing any other type of thing is probably also healthy for the artist. But telling people what the make their art of is ridiculous and cuts off the communication that art provides to the world. It stifles the artist from being able to illustrate what they are interested in (in this case, sexy ladies). Stopping conversations with rules and regulations is usually a lot less interesting that letting artists do what they’d like and hurts they way we express our ideas to each other.

When you start talking about limiting art, then you start talking about limiting yourself. The lesson that needs to be taught is not that making big-boobed people is wrong.

Art is context sensitive, and we must strive to cultivate intelligent people. Everyone has the right to enjoy sex, in all its forms. We should think about what we are looking at, rather than shun it or label it as wrong.

It is more empowering as a woman to decide that sex is great and to respect it among everyone, rather than be offended by another woman being portrayed as a sexual being. Because, we all are.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #111 on: January 21, 2013, 07:57:55 pm
If many groups of females had started game companies in the 80's and 90's because they thought computers and Dungeons and Dragons was awesome, things would've looked different. How about that? (It's a sort of truism, of course.)

How does one (starting a lot of videogame companies in the '80s) relate to the other (because they thought Dungeons and Dragons was awesome)? I am not clear on the point you're trying to make.

Are you aware of this?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #112 on: January 21, 2013, 08:08:20 pm
It is more empowering as a woman to decide that sex is great and to respect it among everyone, rather than be offended by another woman being portrayed as a sexual being.

I think this is right.
But I have started to become aware that the opposite is also right, women should be able to be portrayed as not sexual and not idealized/stereotypical.

Let's take this as an example:



A character from Borderlands 2.
My knee-jerk reaction was a typical "do-not-want!
I think the "do-not-want" part is due to being used to seeing women in game as "do-want"..  :-[
Which sorta highlights the issues with games and sexuality being from a male perspective and a majority of female characters being sexualized.

And let's look at Half-life 2.


Alyx.
There's no do-want knee-jerk reaction, but she is still good looking. (wait, is that duct tape on her shoulder?)



Alyx.
This probably warrants a more typical "ohmygosh that's hot" reaction..
And it's the kind of depiction that most male gamers expect/want to see in games.

Are you aware of this?
while women were left with everything the men didn't want to do.

After programing turned out to be really interesting, men took it back.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 08:19:59 pm by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #113 on: January 21, 2013, 08:42:28 pm
I dont even know what to say or not say anymore. I'm just glad Jengy posted.

I thought it was healthy for us to see how these femme fatale stereotypes were more stupid than we were able to see, so that we as a community were able to see what we were designing a bit better,  maybe to design our characters as person first, and then factor their sex and their particular gender roles in their designs in, out of our own will. 

But when there starts to be talk about nagging some developer to tone down Probertson's game it seems like a very colonialist thinking kind of thing where we want to shape the world to our perception of what's right, intervening where there's only the perception of someone being victimized instead of actual victims.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #114 on: January 21, 2013, 08:45:23 pm
Oh. I do have a fully formed opinion on ideal breast size. It's (B+C+C)/3. I've been fine tuning the formula for ages. Looking at the thread title... if I were to forcibly impose this personal ideal of mine upon the masses, would I... be the good guy?

Helm> It was a half joke nod to Richard Garriott and Origin (along with many other games created back then, which were strongly influenced by DnD in particular). I think it's likely that a gamer will develop an interest in developing games. Back then, gamers also happily played PnP games and for some time PnP was the only viable option. That is the connection which was there for me. In Sweden, PnP was a big thing and we sprouted several game devs back then thanks to the computer density.

I'm familiar with Ada and female programmers. Interestingly (not mentioned directly in that article I think), the early "computers" were actually made of women sitting (in rows and columns) doing calculations manually, sort of like a big bio computer (needless to say, it was monotonous labor). My dad saw this visiting Zeiss (a company which made camera lenses) in Germany, but apparently the job predates even Babbage's attempts at automatizing it. Games with figurative characters were created much later, of course, and it wasn't really a job back then, but rather a hobby which turned into something, as in Garriot's case. As for the point, it was a delayed comment on the article. More female "nerds" (as in the specific type which want to create worlds at any cost, I should clarify) would help, along with other things, I'm sure.

PixelPileDriver> I've taken both art and programming classes, and in both cases there were a quite a lot of female students. However, I don't think any of them had any sort of interest in making games, whilst a significant portion of the guys did (this was quite a many years ago).

I actually state outright in my contact FAQ that I'm not a team guy, but this doesn't stop people from contacting me. I know skilled artists who've done things of questionable nature, but still have jobs at big developers. I think, at least with art, they look at your stuff first and foremost. Programming skill is much, much harder to gauge.


Seiseki> Lots of girls do game art and indie development now though. That alone means things will change. Edit: Creating a game isn't necessarily an insurmountable problem because you won't get hired by some asshole. As I noted earlier, guys like Braben, Garriot and others did games in their free time, and nowadays you can go indie.


Jengy> Artists have always been straddling the loosely defined fence that is moral responsibility and creative freedom (How many people did I offend, or entertain with my FSM painting?). I don't think anyone can define that boundary clearly, but it's clear that it's moving. I wouldn't consider creating a work which describes the exotic negros and their practical use as labor, like I might have been more inclined to do a few hundred years ago, and probably could have done more or less unquestioned.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 09:27:41 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #115 on: January 21, 2013, 08:54:43 pm
I forgot to say that I really liked the point of about lack of ugly looking people, or rather interesting faces. That reminded me of something Lorne Lanning (oddworld creator) said, about how back in the time of westerns when the good the bad and the ugly were made a lot more facetypes were visible on-screen but nowdays it's all fair skinned whitewashed people.

There's something else, too. How come non-model looking people always tend to be the minions of the bad guy? happens a lot specially in anime. That's boring and dumb as fuck, that was one thing I really liked about the Matrix's Oracle she was powerful as fuck and she was just an old lady.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #116 on: January 21, 2013, 10:04:51 pm
The comments seem to tell a different story - female developers getting turned away from AAA companies in favor of similarly skilled men, subtle (or not so) hostility (references toward the dead island ad with the headless bikini torso?)
I like the way she kept telling that women are the one who need to change. As usual, isn't that the problem in every place? Why can't women stop being so uptight and stop complaining!
Yeah.

For what it's worth, I know 44 people in the games industry, and the gender is split totally evenly (huge selection bias*, but interesting).  If I only counted people in EA the girls would be a not too slim majority. 

(*particularly I'm friends with more artists than coders).

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #117 on: January 21, 2013, 11:25:43 pm
I just realized that I'm probably the wrong person to think about this. As a compulsively creative person, I'm perhaps too prone to using the "beggars can't be choosers" argument since it's so easy for me to be a chooser, and I'm pretty good at filtering (I wonder if it has lead to my obscure tastes?) which is another form of choosing. It's difficult for me to sympathize with passivity. Consumers are almost lower life forms to me, especially those who don't even filter and have things seemingly willingly thrust upon them. But when people seem content I often envy the ability to be a receptacle.

However, we all have cultural luggage from the previous occupants thrust upon us and some of it is junk which needs to be sorted through. Shan't think too highly about the available choices, perhaps.

Whatever is at the core of the poodle, pragmatically I still think being change is more conductive to actual change because it's directly applied force rather than some guys at the roadside yelling at people how to drive. It could become a discussion about which system has the best moral awareness, but it feels like a wanky esoteric endeavor. It's possible that I underestimate the role that Zeitgeist plays in providing a foundation for the changers, I don't really know, so I won't solidify my opinion too much.

rikfuzz> I've been in various gamedev communities since... long ago, and I've watched the ratio change drastically. Also, getting hired is difficult and wanting to quit is easy (crunch, surrounding incompetence or jerk boss being the most common reasons). It's anecdotal, but I think I've only ever heard guys complain about these things.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 12:02:53 am by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #118 on: January 22, 2013, 03:03:44 am
I find feminism, as a woman, very confusing.

There always attempts to neuter female sexuality when, if you are a sexually satisfied woman, you love sex and being sexy, you are comfortable with those two things, and can appreciate it.

Some people believe big-breasted women to be offensive.
I just realized one obvious problem with that line of thinking -- big breasted women don't find themselves offensive. Naturally. Although the physical issues of having such large breasts and the behaviour they elicit seem to often be offensive to them.

Quote
However, ALL of art and media (movies, books, and games) is skewed to be context sensitive.

Rarely do writers use main characters in books that are ugly, despite the fact that ugliness is just another variable of appearance, another shade to be chosen from a palette, and can be used to promote an idea or character identity. There are rarely cries against this practice.
You might say the problem here is cheap and nasty use of tropes, with little or no subtlety. It's like drawing the symbol for a airplane instead of actually drawing -a- airplane. You haven't created an X type of character or situation, only the archetype of one.

Quote
I do agree that artists must do things intentionally. If ugly is your intention, if you have motivation for it, then that is great. Ugly things are incredibly interesting. But there always needs to be active thinking by both consumer and artist. It’s shallow thinking that leads to exploitation of any group.
That's very true. Gratuitous creation of either -- ugly or beautiful things -- is not actually helpful in a broader context.
I can certainly agree with Arne's sentiment that 'consumers sometimes seem like lesser beings', and I think it is because of an increasing awareness that creation is really not optional if you want to not be shallow; If I spend more time in a given day consuming than producing, then my thinking starts to get lazy and haphazard.

Ideally, we need every person creating (in this case some kind of art) regularly. This takes the shine off of the things we might look at in awe as consumers, to instead look like an ordinary thing that mainly took hard work and cooperation. Personally this makes it much easier for me to say 'nope, not interested in that -- too generic/ I could do better/ doesn't really make sense. I'll draw some non-generic stuff with those themes instead' (and of course come out of it better informed, rather than merely entertained.)

Quote
One rarely hears complaints from feminists about extraordinarily pretty everyone in movies tends to be (men, women, and children alike). Attractiveness is apparently divorced from sexuality in this mindset. But sexualilty becomes vilified rather than shallowness. 
This is a very on-target point. Whether the consumer treats the media (or any given part of it) as simply candy, or something to consider and understand, is a major aspect of whether sexualization (ie. not portraying someone who HAS a sex life, but someone whose ONLY relevance to the media is sex)

Quote
I believe what we should do is teach others to ignore media, and see it for what is, and embrace all forms, and think intelligently about what we consume.
FTFY. Yes!

Quote
. Stopping conversations with rules and regulations is usually a lot less interesting that letting artists do what they’d like and hurts they way we express our ideas to each other.
On the other hand, what you like often isn't what's most beneficial to you, so we need to do better than just 'let people do their own thing'. This is the isolationist failure mode that's common in our individualistic western society. We need to communicate with more people, not only the ones we find comforting or easy to talk to.

Quote
When you start talking about limiting art, then you start talking about limiting yourself. The lesson that needs to be taught is not that making big-boobed people is wrong.
Absolutely. To me, saying 'you can't draw that' is the same as saying 'you can't think that' -- '1984'esque wrongness. If I really am literally incapable of drawing that (whatever 'that' is), then my brain is broken.

Quote
Art is context sensitive, and we must strive to cultivate intelligent people. Everyone has the right to enjoy sex, in all its forms. We should think about what we are looking at, rather than shun it or label it as wrong.

It is more empowering as a woman to decide that sex is great and to respect it among everyone, rather than be offended by another woman being portrayed as a sexual being. Because, we all are.
I think what is at issue in this thread is not so much whether a woman is portrayed as a sexual being (doing that well is still rare, really, and it would be good to have more accurate portrayal), but whether this portrayal is 1-dimensional. I mean, there really are people for whom sex rules their lives.  But AFAICS these people are in a strange headspace and rarely happy regardless of how much sex they have, so it's somewhat.. ah, what comes to mind is it's like a socially clueless person who offends through ignorance .. to portray a character whose main thing is enjoying their sexuality without also portraying the ill effects of having such a 1-dimensional life, in the context of a semi-serious work (ie. a narrative of some length)

It is more empowering as a woman to decide that sex is great and to respect it among everyone, rather than be offended by another woman being portrayed as a sexual being.

I think this is right.
But I have started to become aware that the opposite is also right, women should be able to be portrayed as not sexual and not idealized/stereotypical.

Let's take this as an example:



A character from Borderlands 2.
My knee-jerk reaction was a typical "do-not-want!
I think the "do-not-want" part is due to being used to seeing women in game as "do-want"..  :-[
Which sorta highlights the issues with games and sexuality being from a male perspective and a majority of female characters being sexualized.
It does, but I'd like to offer an alternative perspective: the 'do (not) want' reaction is not a problem.

People intentionally put things that invoke 'do not want' in video games all the time. Consider the whole horror/survival genre. The problem is when people then think .. 'and that's bad'. It's not bad.. uh there are more things you can imagine in relation to a character than just having sex with them, I hope  :lol:. Even the main character doesn't have to be "good looking" for the audience to connect, they just have to be -charismatic-. They have to capture your imagination, but that's doesn't have to mean tying it to the bed.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 05:51:37 am by Ai »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #119 on: January 22, 2013, 05:17:54 am
As a side note, I was actually happy to see that wardrobe-lady design... until I went to the kotaku page.
Comments full of players bitching and whining and moaning. It's like they absolutely had to have everything conform to their needs. Like there wasn't a single character they were happy with because of the developers adding someone who wasn't to their tastes.

*throw hands in the air*
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #120 on: January 22, 2013, 05:41:58 am
One thing to jengy. Are you sure you are not confusing the idea of feminism with what sex-negative feminists are spouting? They are a pretty small but very vocal group.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #121 on: January 22, 2013, 12:01:13 pm
Aforementioned article

http://kotaku.com/5926542/borderlands-2-doesnt-want-you-cracking-jokes-about-this-character

I went there to chuckle at the supposed malcontent, but found the comments to be pretty diverse in opinion, and some of them quite insightful. Someone or several pointed out, and I paraphrase, that doing a manifestly fat character is a sort of extreme which can thus be clearly compartmentalized (away from the rest of the supermodels) as "that character which they used to show diversity".

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #122 on: January 22, 2013, 12:11:45 pm
As a side note, I was actually happy to see that wardrobe-lady design... until I went to the kotaku page.
Comments full of players bitching and whining and moaning. It's like they absolutely had to have everything conform to their needs. Like there wasn't a single character they were happy with because of the developers adding someone who wasn't to their tastes.

*throw hands in the air*

I'm telling you, everything gets so much worse when people are jerks..

Speaking of jerks, League of Legends is a good game to look at because it has a crazy amount of playable characters and new ones get added monthly.
But not a single female character is ugly, old or overweight, while the same thing can't be said about the male characters.

Also, I quote from that kotaku article:
Quote
BUT I wont buy any Gearbox game anymore because:

"In designing one of Borderlands 2's characters, Ellie, Gearbox wanted to build "an independent female character who looked the exact opposite of how most females tend to be represented in games"."
They obviously gave in to the shit on the internet and slowly start to lose focus on their target audience. It starts with this and ends in a game totally different to what the players wanted. With developers like that, I think this is the end of Borlderlands.

I guess it shows how male consumers takes privilege for granted..
*facepalm*
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 12:33:09 pm by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #123 on: January 22, 2013, 12:51:39 pm
Arne, perhaps their comments changed since I last visited. It was several months ago, way before christmas. I certainly don't remember anyone actually saying anything nice about her.

There certainly were threats of "Im not gonna buy this game if they do this!" e_e


(ps, Seiseki, I'm thankful for the change in your attitude! Though I don't know how to better express what im saying, it's nice to see someone who actually started looking at things in a different way than how they started out..?)
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Offline Arne

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #124 on: January 22, 2013, 01:01:56 pm
Ymedron> I figured so. It usually happens. Jerks post, people point out somewhere that jerks are posting. People try to bring balance, I get there wondering what the fuzz is about.

Seiseiki>  Uhuh. It shows what that particular consumer is feeling, and the ones bothering to make similar comments. His slippery slopey argument leads me to believe he's a troll. I'm inclined to think that guys like that is as entitled to precious feedback as anyone else (i.e. not). Then again I don't release AAA games and have no reason to keep an eye on demographics.

And I don't think what makes some females uncomfortable, in regards to the common representation of the female physical form, is the lack of ugly, overweight old female characters. It's the lack of more subtle variation in form which might be present on their own bodies, but is totally absent in games. This is not a problem for me, because there are plenty of bald space marines in games (now imagine me as an 9 foot tall hulk, hunched over a tiny iMac keyboard).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 01:05:24 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #125 on: January 22, 2013, 01:26:56 pm
(ps, Seiseki, I'm thankful for the change in your attitude! Though I don't know how to better express what im saying, it's nice to see someone who actually started looking at things in a different way than how they started out..?)

Well, I've come to realize that as a tool, the privilege concept is useful.   :)
Because otherwise I'm just gonna see my own perspective, and it's tough to realize your own perspective is skewed.
In this case it's also important to see yourself as a member of a larger group. It's something I've never really done and hence my initial resistance to the idea.
Which in turn becomes kinda self-contradictory, because the aim is for people to be seen as individuals. It's a bit like fighting fire with fire, but I'm convinced that it's necessary.

@Arne, yeah, there's definitely an entitlement factor in consumers today, but combined with sexist/racist/homophobic views it becomes a much bigger problem.
I really think we need the old, ugly and fat women in games to counter the whole "all women in games are sexualized" because otherwise consumers will continue to expect it, demanding consumers will demand it. :)

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #126 on: January 22, 2013, 01:54:32 pm
Oh. I do have a fully formed opinion on ideal breast size. It's (B+C+C)/3. I've been fine tuning the formula for ages. Looking at the thread title... if I were to forcibly impose this personal ideal of mine upon the masses, would I... be the good guy?

Why would you be the good guy for enforcing any arbitrated standard of beauty?

Quote
Jengy> Artists have always been straddling the loosely defined fence that is moral responsibility and creative freedom (How many people did I offend, or entertain with my FSM painting?). I don't think anyone can define that boundary clearly, but it's clear that it's moving. I wouldn't consider creating a work which describes the exotic negros and their practical use as labor, like I might have been more inclined to do a few hundred years ago, and probably could have done more or less unquestioned.

How do you feel about your girth of personal projects that you display on the internet where most female characters wear panties? I am not attacking you with this question, I really would like to know the throught process behind that. It's not just one or two pictures.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #127 on: January 22, 2013, 02:47:46 pm
Why would you be the good guy for enforcing any arbitrated standard of beauty?

Because if big boobs are offensive, than a standardized average size wouldn't be... ::)
If we're only talking breast size we miss all the other important details though, like posing, clothing, role, body type, etc.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #128 on: January 22, 2013, 02:54:15 pm
You might be missing my point, or you might be joking, but I'd rather appear a bit of an idiot and restate clearly than let it slide because this is serious stuff:

Big boobs or small boobs being an enforced (even passively) standard of beauty by males, for the benefit of the male gaze, are equally sexist. The problem is who is doing the judging and how, not what standard they want to enforce.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #129 on: January 22, 2013, 03:25:33 pm
I was under the impression that the breast size would be enforced, not for the sake of male gaze, but for the sake of being average and not on the extreme end.

But yeah, I can't take such an idea seriously and I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to :)

Also, to further highlight how women are portrayed in video games and the male gaze.
If a male character is ugly, old, has a nasty scar, overweight, has a burnt face, then he has personality, he's interesting, unique, cool, morbid, scary, dark, etc.
If a woman displays any of those traits she's simply unattractive and nothing more.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 03:32:51 pm by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #130 on: January 22, 2013, 03:40:22 pm
The most downloaded mods for Skyrim are "clean faces" and "big booty" mods, who clean up female faces and adjust the measurements of the female models only. That's what the average video game player wants.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #131 on: January 22, 2013, 04:23:11 pm
Helm> The argument in these kind of discussions often is that a wider selection is good. I don't think it's realistic, nor reasonable to expect that every individual expresses an equal amount of diversity through some form of rationing. How perfectly dull. Diversity is something you might see in a larger aggregation, with individual actors providing the things they are experts at. It was more a joke about the supposed tyranny of big breasts than anything else though.

As for the panties, the feedback I get on that is overwhelmingly either confused laughs or encouragement, from men and women alike (even those with feminist leanings). I have unwittingly made it a trademark and people even like to jokingly express disappointment whenever I do a complete dress. If I'm somehow committing an act of utter barbarity, to be frowned upon by the enlightened, blue unisex overall folks in the next century, I'm completely blind to it.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #132 on: January 22, 2013, 05:15:21 pm
I don't know about that strawman blue unisex overall folks you're talking about, I am also in the 'confused' category and I am not sure you've cleared out your motivations any with your answer. It's fine if you don't care to, though.

I am not sure how comfortable I am with the idea of 'individual actors providing the things they're experts at' in this context, because many actors seem to be expert at providing art (which otherwise varies in quality and scope) or dependably sexist and misogynistic form. These individual actors do not function in a vacuum, they are interconnected in what they're inspired from and to what they relate to. That web is a culture and it's that culture that I - and others - wish to see change. Where does this change start? Does it start with leaving discrete actors to do whatever they want and pretend they're not products of a society with specific structure that serves specific sends?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #133 on: January 22, 2013, 07:09:15 pm
I think you hit the nail on the head. But, wishes don't actually work. If you want to change the culture, you have to actively contribute to diversification and integrate your ideas into the cultural web.


Motivation? I thought it was self evident. A fetish is a fetish. Mine's been with me from the very start, which might seem a little strange. It's not something which was planted in a pot at puberty because I read a sexy magazine, just as it isn't for gays. In fact, when I first came upon those magazines I was sort of disgusted by the... direct meatiness and lack of leaving things to imagination. I won't deny that the surrounding culture might have nudged me around a little (the Alien 1 ending :o it's very strange to me when people complain about Ripley's "flat" ass by the way, it's what makes the panty work so well ). Anyways, a gay artist might draw gay stuff, just as I do what I do.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:19:33 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #134 on: January 22, 2013, 07:13:16 pm
I am doing my part to change the culture, it might be small but I am doing it. Are you?

As to fetishes, that interesting and thanks for the honesty. I also have my own fetishes (and I also cannot track where they started, I do not think most people can?) but I do not put them in my art often, then again I am not as prolific as you. Is your fetish especially the tiny panties or is it to put tiny panties on videogame-related characters in particular?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #135 on: January 22, 2013, 08:44:35 pm
No, the panty thing carried over into unrelated interests which developed later. Someone actually mailed me and asked me if I thought of myself as a pervert. It's semantics. Aren't most people? Maybe I'm kind of tame, so I can make it public. Maybe a real pervert have to hide stuff for his entire life?


As for being efficient: I used to be really confrontational whenever a creationist showed up. They were wrong, dammit, and they needed to be told. I was saving the world with every sentence and every talk.origins link. Then I spent 5hrs on a single image which made any of my previous efforts insignificant and it felt meaningless to engage with words again.

Gender inequality is one of the items on a very long list of world problems which I'm currently not much attempting to solve with words on the internet, other than advocating the most effective solution I know of (plus, I help people with art, programming, industry questions and whatnot). That's my part. I do believe it to give the most bang for the buck.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 08:52:33 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #136 on: January 22, 2013, 09:05:29 pm
Pragmatically most people exhibit abberant sexual behaviours here and there depending on one's definition of what is normal. But on the ideological level very few people self-identify as proud perverts. Normative structures are enforced by those in power to channel and direct people's sexuality, repress it to the point where they will supplant their libido by purchasing this or that product instead of persuing their objects of lust. It's a very basic thing. A proud pervert is an enemy to the capital insofar that their prime source of enjoyment is self-sufficient and unregulated.

I do agree confrontations with atheists is not the most efficient use of your time given your capacities as an artist. I did not mean that this thread or any other similar is my prime contribution to solving the problem of chauvinism, in the case that was what was conveyed. But it does help. In the very least, even staying silent helps more than saying 'can't do anything until the female nerd brigade shows up!'.

I am glad to hear you're being proactive in other channels. I am not sure about a few things I've read in your posts in this thread so far because they seemed strangely to make light of the situation, hence my prodding. I might be reading you wrong, but it's not such a big deal in the end.

edit: sorry missed one line that actually could further conversation:
Quote
Maybe a real pervert have to hide stuff for his entire life?

Many do. But in the case they're brave - and I consider myself brave on matters of sexuality - I think it's a matter of context. Where my characters in a story to have sex, I would see if there's an angle where my own sexual inclinations can be presented and commented upon, but I wouldn't sit on my desk and draw metroid sprite redesigns having sex in the particular way I am interested in, I am sure you follow. And even then, I would explore my particular fascinations in perhaps one tenth of the sexual material I would create on the whole because I am interested in exploring thoughts and concepts I do not myself have a special liking to much more. But perhaps all this is related to that for me drawing is a pain and I do not sit down and draw easily if it's not for work. You might enjoy drawing much more than me and it seems you produce a lot more, in which case I can see how throwing stuff in to keep you entertained might be a bigger part of your creative loop.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:11:24 pm by Helm »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #137 on: January 22, 2013, 09:08:49 pm
To do: ??? Cow made my lovely avatar.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #138 on: January 22, 2013, 10:26:58 pm
the Alien 1 ending :o

Must be a pretty powerful image, I always got flash-backs of this scene when looking at your art!  I had no idea they were related.   :lol:

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #139 on: January 22, 2013, 10:41:38 pm
By the way, here is an image that I feel is very well done. The way she is drawn tells a story, rather than just being drawn in a way that pleases the artist/is easiest to draw/gets the most hypothetical appendages throbbing.

(from this article: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/02/22/psylocke-art-greg-land-jerome-opena/
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #140 on: January 22, 2013, 10:43:40 pm
edit: sorry missed one line that actually could further conversation:

So Helmy!

I don't know much about other people's fetishes. It seems like, in Yaoi, a rather elaborate story framework often must establish the Pitcher-Catcher conflict for the fetish to bloom. Were I to make a comic, the story would inevitably be subject to the kind of force which affects all my other creations, and it's sort of hard to make it work logically. This is why I've mostly made loose pinups. I'm sort of done once the panty is there. Doesn't matter much who it's on.


Rikfuzz > That scene is almost one of a kind, unfortunately ._.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 11:02:51 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #141 on: January 22, 2013, 11:02:52 pm
By the way, here is an image that I feel is very well done. The way she is drawn tells a story, rather than just being drawn in a way that pleases the artist/is easiest to draw/gets the most hypothetical appendages throbbing.

(from this article: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/02/22/psylocke-art-greg-land-jerome-opena/

That entire comic is actually a well done example of how to treat a female; Psylocke is both a powerful and vulnerable character, she goes from being sexy to loving, to badass and ruthless. I think it hits the nail on the head of a female that is neither purely made to be a sexual object, nor completely devoid of sexual attractiveness. More comics should look up to that sort of treatment.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #142 on: January 22, 2013, 11:19:25 pm
Agreed - the art should always reflect who the character is and how they are feeling. I don't know much about Psylocke's character, but I assume she is a character who does engage in love/sex.

What I especially like here is her expression. It makes me think of a desperate mother who is willing to do anything to protect her child. (Im almost led to believe that she has lost a child in the past, but I wouldn't know) She isn't acting or displaying for anyone. That's (to me) the essence of an empowered female.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #143 on: January 23, 2013, 12:03:51 am
Then I spent 5hrs on a single image which made any of my previous efforts insignificant and it felt meaningless to engage with words again.
You're talking about the Flying Spaghetti Monster aren't you? man that was incredible. Man I'm SO envious :p....I can only wonder how it feels to express yourself by creating an internet 'meme' that's actually meaningful.  Have you ever attempted (and succeeded at) something like that again?

Maybe what we need is to create the flying spaghetti monster of chauvinism. wonder what that would look like :p
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 12:24:06 am by Conceit »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #144 on: January 23, 2013, 01:42:46 am
Wait, what?
Arne created the flying spaghetti monster?

I just googled it and wow, I feel so small..  :o

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #145 on: January 23, 2013, 01:32:30 pm
Another guy came up with the concept which was just going viral when I did the painting that was/is widely published. It's a dead picture that's humorous and ambiguous in nature, a passive thing which can be engaged with thought if one chooses. It's a way to make people tell themselves things, I'd like to think. A physical person attacking with words can cause a defensiveness which solidifies a held position further, because we don't like to admit someone else's superiority in reasoning.

The balding man dressed in skimpy female superhero costume meme pics does similar work, I suppose, but those pictures only address the superficial issue of difference in outfits and poses. As I understand it, there are many deeper arguments which would need a more elaborate, immersive product for effective promotion.

Perhaps you need to play the manipulative game of... making people give their rights away. It has proved pretty effective for others, regardless of what those rights were.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 01:45:32 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #146 on: January 23, 2013, 05:08:17 pm
...give their rights away? is THAT how you feel about this whole thing? trying to affect culture with your vision of things hardly qualifies as taking people's rights away...we're discussing stuff here not running a rally or trying to get a law aproved or smth :p

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #147 on: January 23, 2013, 07:52:47 pm
Not sure if you misunderstood. Rights may have been the wrong word, but I used it for a reason.

As soon as people feel like "hey, someone is taking my rights away", they'll become more unreceptive to the notions which you're trying to impress upon them (which may have nothing to do with taking Rights or rights), and may even form a defensive line. I was talking about methods of delivery which avoids this, at least to some extent.

With "give their rights away" I meant more like, change their mind or enforce unawareness through wily manipulation while you cackle lizardously in your secret lair along with the other overlords
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 08:49:50 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #148 on: January 24, 2013, 01:36:58 am
Lets look at the whole discussion from a different direction... what would games have from avoiding this kind of stereotyping? Games are art after all, and art isn't about educating. Art doesn't get better by artificially restricting it, vision is what is important. If your vision is a overly cliched action movie spin off with "perfect" men and women then so be it, it certainly has it's appeal and avoiding sexy women would just hurt the atmosphere. However if your vision is a authentic world you might want to keep the overly beautiful characters at a minimum, this kind of world profits from diversity and modesty.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #149 on: January 24, 2013, 06:28:24 am
What would games get?
More variable women. We wouldn't just get people with their appearance and nature clashing. The characters who actually show off their skin have IMPACT because not everyone would dress like that. You wouldn't have to dress them in even more outrageous clothes than the norm to say "This character is VERY SEXUAL" when there is a counterpoint of a woman who dresses normally.
It's like swearing in conversation. If you swear all the time you are at loss for words when you need to really let off some steam. Design and actions lose impact when they are oversaturated.

Also... Games are art, and isn't art's task to make people think? Following the current norms certainly makes for a no-brainer. There is a reason why pornography isn't considered for film awards - it isn't there to make you think. It's there to make money, and to make its consumer happy.
Restrictions is what flourishes your imagination - I produce better art when I have restrictions to work with. Isn't that the reason why pixel art can look so marvelous when you need to work around the lack of colors and resolution?

Let's think of a real life example of art getting 'constrained.' Cigarettes. They weren't always looked at with a dim view like nowadays. Movies use tobacco less to indicate a successful/promiscuous/what have you person, and instead it is used as a fairly specific character trait. You don't see a successful businessman with a cigar anymore, but you do see a criminal or a rough teen on a street smoking one.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #150 on: January 24, 2013, 07:15:41 am
Lets look at the whole discussion from a different direction... what would games have from avoiding this kind of stereotyping? Games are art after all, and art isn't about educating. Art doesn't get better by artificially restricting it, vision is what is important. If your vision is a overly cliched action movie spin off with "perfect" men and women then so be it, it certainly has it's appeal and avoiding sexy women would just hurt the atmosphere. However if your vision is a authentic world you might want to keep the overly beautiful characters at a minimum, this kind of world profits from diversity and modesty.

Sexy characters don't have to be avoided completely, but right now, they are often also/just a selling point. I'd rather have some more in-depth character development instead.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #151 on: January 24, 2013, 09:57:09 am
Sexy characters don't have to be avoided completely, but right now, they are often also/just a selling point. I'd rather have some more in-depth character development instead.

That's a good stance, generally.  But realistically, there's plenty of game types that don't afford any character development at all.  Say a slot machine, for example.  The art is only there to make them attractive / appealing not part of telling any kind of story.  (I don't really know much about actual slot machines, but the same goes for other completely story-less games I'd suppose).

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #152 on: January 24, 2013, 10:43:29 am
Lets look at the whole discussion from a different direction... what would games have from avoiding this kind of stereotyping? Games are art after all, and art isn't about educating. Art doesn't get better by artificially restricting it, vision is what is important. If your vision is a overly cliched action movie spin off with "perfect" men and women then so be it, it certainly has it's appeal and avoiding sexy women would just hurt the atmosphere. However if your vision is a authentic world you might want to keep the overly beautiful characters at a minimum, this kind of world profits from diversity and modesty.

Yeah, as long as you are aware of what signals you're sending with your vision and what is influencing your decisions.
Also the fact that your vision is restricted in how it only appeals to a certain group.

The question is do we have a responsibility as artists and game designers?
We're conveying a tons of different messages and signals through art, character, storytelling and game design. So naturally we should be take responsibility right?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #153 on: January 24, 2013, 06:01:58 pm
http://www.giantbomb.com/news/eight-women-eight-responses-and-one-dead-island-riptide-statue/4527/ this is interesting and especially the contrast between the comments by women in the industry and the comments by site users below the article.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #154 on: January 24, 2013, 08:28:54 pm
Honestly right now I'm feeling like we're focusing too negatively on this.

I think we came to a point where we had all admitted that gender inequality isnt something we're fond of, but we also have to admit our kinks and our sexuality. But the discussion has been too narrowed down to a myriad ways in which we should NOT express our sexuality because it's objectifying.

I dont think this topic has to be about nagging on the ways boobs or asses are shown, I think we can understand ways that are more self aware to show our kinks while admitting them as that, and not being incongruent with showing truly strong and deep women.

it's weird, I'm feeling like I'm asking the forum wether or not it's ok for me to like this, but we need something to widen the discussion

http://video.adultswim.com/superjail/hot-chick.html

This episode of superjail has a completely objectified woman, but the way it's done is completely self aware and is a parody of itself, in that the disproportionate justifications used here to justify all of the character's actions around the hot chick are as insane as the defenses that are used for portraying women the same way.

I also post this because it has a similar level of ultra violence and sex as probertson does, but I think it's smarter than him because it's far more self aware and has more mature perspective. I do like art like that once in a while and I dont think having a wider perspective diminishes it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 08:35:35 pm by Conceit »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #155 on: January 24, 2013, 08:33:19 pm
I don't think it's possible to make anyone not find sexy what they find sexy. But people shouldn't delude themselves if they think their sexual tastes are not informed by a patriarchical culture. There's nothing hypocritical about condemning sex negative culture and chauvinism while you say, masturbate to porn produced by this culture. We can't help who we are but we can be self-aware.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #156 on: January 24, 2013, 08:38:34 pm
that's exactly what I think...and why I posted that episode  :crazy: it's nothing but a male fantasy of an objectified woman but it's presented as that, and I feel that's enough.

we CAN express our kinks, there's just no need to pretend it's something else, it's just about recognizing the incongruity there.

EDIT: I just realized I have an oportunity here to post fuck shit stack...and I will because I love it :p (also it's another example of the same thing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkKOeeYko7w
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 08:47:07 pm by Conceit »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #157 on: January 24, 2013, 10:15:37 pm
Did you read the lyrics of that song?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #158 on: January 24, 2013, 10:24:59 pm
yup. self parodying. guy's not really a rapper, he makes improvisational music/comedy and this music video is parodying rappers, from the bling bling (while he wears hobo's clothes) to the objectifying of women, which he does overtly to highlight the stupidity of this ladies man attitude.

He does have some other crappy music videos for comedy websites about boners or something and those suck...but this one I enjoy.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #159 on: January 24, 2013, 11:25:52 pm
First time I've seen that dismembered statue. It seems very much like something like the guro/amputee community might produce for enjoyment within their obscure subculture, where "helpless sexy torso" can be fetish. My first reaction was surprise to see it outside of it's natural habitat, Union Jack and all.

Some of the really weird sexualities and fetishes out there are sort of culturally isolated from the "normal" sex stuff that's pushed on the general population. In this case there's an awkward overlap, with the big boobs.



« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 11:29:53 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #160 on: January 25, 2013, 03:25:09 am
Reading the comments vs the dev comments (Which I bet would have been a lot less honest if their companies were the ones asking their opinion) makes me frankly very depressed and powerless.
I guess these feelings of helplessness are pretty common, since you can see everywhere females (and feminists) getting silenced by this.

And yes it is silencing to constantly go "but it's not a problem!" :l


EDIT: Also, found this. http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/40932009413/emaretto-submitted-i-think-joe-keatinge
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 04:48:34 am by Ymedron »
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Offline Arne

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #161 on: January 25, 2013, 10:42:57 am
"Not THIS shit again", seems to be how those women feel, how the people in the comments feel, how people commenting on the comments feel.

Take a look at what "THIS" is made out to represent in all cases. Is it accurate? Can you spot any misrepresentations or unfair grouping? Beyond this veil of straws, perhaps lies a furthered understanding of the different points of views.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #162 on: January 25, 2013, 11:06:55 am
To me they were saying "Im so fucking tired of being treated this way", while the commenters were saying "women should just shut up and leave games to men". I think that's a very stark message, though not an uncommon one.
Not sure what you are saying there, though.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #163 on: January 25, 2013, 12:23:01 pm
That's not the impressions that I got at all.

First, I thought the views of those eight were pretty relaxed, overall. They immediately recognized that the statue was tasteless, and odd, and mostly stayed on that topic. A few implied that some men actually see women the same way they saw/analysed the statue, or that the statue encouraged such views. Others implied that it was simply a bad move on part of the publisher, and insulting to women and men alike. It was a poor move to alienate female gamers like that, and it's a poor move to do it in general. No one advocated censorship.

Out of the people commenting, I didn't see any vehemently defending the statue and idea that women are in fact just pleasure torsos. In fact, no one really talked much about the statue, but instead were there to talk about other things. For certain, not all of the people commenting said the same thing. Some people seem to feel that the views of the women was needless, because most had already agreed that the statue was tasteless and it had been discussed to death elsewhere. Some saw the article as a way to bring a shit storm and thus ad revenue, and blamed a guy named Patrick (actually, a lot of people seemed to say this). Some people were slamming misogynists preemptively. Some people urged for civilized discussion, but dared not to hope for it. Some thought it was a good and relevant article.   Some people wanted to rant about equality in gaming in general and saw this article as their chance. A few were offended because they thought the OP women had implied that men hold such a shallow view of women. Some thought the statue wasn't a problem at all, because _insert usual arguments_ (most already addressed by the OP females), and the women were overreacting (even though they had been asked to write a blurb). There were more opinions, if someone cares to expand.

I don't think summarizing the comment section as "women should just shut up and leave games to men" is accurate, though similar viewpoints were expressed. Actually, were anyone saying that women shouldn't do games at all? I only skimmed through 10 pages.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:49:06 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #164 on: January 25, 2013, 12:31:21 pm
Quote
Some people seem to feel that the views of the women was needless, because most had already agreed that the statue was tasteless and it had been discussed to death elsewhere.

I wonder if you see how this is sexist?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #165 on: January 25, 2013, 12:39:13 pm
Quote
By yelling about something offensive, we're making a case that offensive marketing is unacceptable. By not yelling, we're giving silent consent to continuing crappy and cheap marketing choices.
Quote
For my part, yes, I found it offensive, it was “the straw that broke the camel’s back”
Quote
When I see the same people who I saw march for Jill, whose heart sank when they heard the news of her death ask me why this torso statue is "such a big deal," I don't even know how to begin to explain to them how they've come so close to the right thing, yet they sit so far from it.
I don't see how they are being relaxed other than writing in a calm, collected tone.
Meanwhile, comments...

Quote
Not a single opinion that it's simply a stupid statue no one gives a fuck about, just eight paragraphs about how hateful, sexist and misogynistic the video game industry is.
Quote
Giant Bomb is my number one stop for extremist feminist propaganda.
Quote
Hey cool, more Kotaku-level clickbait bullshit from Klepek. About a subject that was slightly crass, definitely out-of-touch, and a shade misogynistic, yet "DONT CALL HIM GABEN - Patrick Tricky Scoops Kleptok" decided it was worth posting another one of his "look at me I'm so advanced with my views about the patriarchy".--
(on the first page of the comments, the next pages are a bit better. :l A bit.)

Edit: Also, I'd like to note that negative comments are always more visible than positive ones. It's the way human psyche works, and Im really disappointed in general that the first comments are just that, silencing people and using the word feminism as a slur.

Edit:
Oh hey nevermind, more fuckery:
Quote
But this sexism angle has got to be toned down. There is nothing sexist about this figurine. Yes it's a little crass and obvious and cheap but it's not sexist. At all. It just isn't.
8l
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:43:02 pm by Ymedron »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #166 on: January 25, 2013, 01:29:43 pm
Ymedron> I never said there wasn't any angry comments, so I don't know what picking quotes are going to accomplish. I said that the comment section had more diversity in opinion than you let on, and it still stands. Some people were rude in some ways, some in others, some not at all, but you can't apply an "OR gate" to these opinions and so you have a super villain to attack.

And I said, pretty relaxed, overall. I could counter pick quotes, but I'm not going to.


Helm> I wonder if you can imagine ways it isn't.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #167 on: January 25, 2013, 01:36:33 pm
I guess Im just tired of getting told that my feelings and views don't matter and that I need to get out of the discussion? To me it certainly sounds like you are defending the viewpoint that everyone needs to shut up about sexism in games and whatnot.

I respect and admire you as an artist but I can't accept your viewpoint on this.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #168 on: January 25, 2013, 01:47:15 pm

Helm> I wonder if you can imagine ways it isn't.

I can but that would require for me to give the benefit of the doubt to repeat offenders. So let's not kid ourselves. Something like sexism in an industry cannot be 'discussed to death' as long as the problem still exists. A toy statue of a mutilated female torso with boobs by a publisher that had in their codebase the term 'Feminist Whore' and whose female zombies pose seductively in swimsuits while their body is decaying... is a new thing, it didn't exist before. It requires a new conversation. Those that have 'discussed it to death' simply do not want to discuss it anymore, which is fine and they can spend their time as they wish, but they should stay silent then, not rally to decree the input by the women developers on the issue is needless.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #169 on: January 25, 2013, 02:03:38 pm
Ymedron> My sincerest apologies. With these last posts, I was merely hoping for some interesting mind-bending exercises to happen, but now people might believe that I agree with the bulk of those comments instead. Sorry about that. I do agree that that is a pretty depressing comment section. I do see bright patches though, and gray.

And if you think I believe that women should shut up, I may have grossly misrepresented myself. As previously mentioned, I was rather hoping that they'd make their voices heard and tastes visible in a way which reaches and grabs people effectively.


Helm> I'm inclined to agree. I just wondered if you could do it.

Edit: Guro has been around for quite some time, but perhaps this is its first time in the gaming related limelight.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 02:08:11 pm by Arne »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #170 on: January 25, 2013, 02:30:58 pm
I can't tell for certain but I don't think this statue is in the know as to Guro. The artist that sculpted it might be, the Guro audience certainly will take it as such, but it seems to me a case of pretty much mainstream gamer misogyny! I don't think it's supposed to be sexy AS a dead body. The BOOBS are supposed to be sexy. The rest is supposed to be gruesome, like a cheap violence+sex mixture... horror filmesque.

But on the larger scope I am fascinated when really abstract kinks worm their way to the surface of mainstream culture, like with giant ladies in some films, or a girl squishing a banana with her tennis shoe in some tv show. It's interesting to know that something so incongruous to me is masturbation material for select parts of the audience.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #171 on: January 25, 2013, 04:49:34 pm
It was a piece released into the mainstream for sure, perhaps with the hope that it would be seen as a little harmless fun, standing out against the background noise of other boobs just enough to make good publicity. But it was poorly received by most people/gamers (?), and was a "new thing" like you said , so by neither of those measures it was mainstream, was it?

Wait until Vore makes an entrance. That will be.... well, probably more confusing than anything else.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #172 on: January 25, 2013, 05:34:43 pm
Arne: It's quite alright I suppose - though I think stating your intentions clearly (getting interesting discussion going) when you do something that may easily be seen as misogyny or similar might help? :o It's a viewpoint that many people still honestly believe in, esp. on the internet, and its easy to forget an ambiguously positive/negative stance in favor of a seemingly more obviously positive/negative one. (I hope that made any kind of sense)

When I saw the torso on the article Helm linked (That's the first I actually even read of it, save the comments on another article hinting at it which I thought was a more obscure thing), I pretty much thought that the corpse was a recently mutilated female victim who had been left as a bait for zombies, rather than a zombie corpse.
There are two huge issues that no amount of justifying or fetishes is going to fix...

1. They are trying to use necrophilia as a selling point.
Just like bestiality, necrophilia to my knowledge is still illegal, and I have a feeling it's going to be illegal for a long while. A corpse cannot give consent, and having sex with one will most likely count as defilement of the person's memory. (It's also the ultimate objectification)
2. It doesn't have a head. The bait is an object in the most obvious and startling way possible. Can you imagine how horrifying this is in real life? If this had been discovered in real life, it'd be an outrage. Just like one of the devs said, people would want the perpetrator's head on a stake. Note also, that there is only a female corpse available. This fictional crime is exclusive to females.

Just like there are some things that are too horrible to be depicted in mainstream games (pedophilia and main character raping people comes to mind), I think this is a crime that's too horrible for you to "support." Notice that you are given this corpse as a display piece. You aren't fighting this murderer in the game, he (I have a feeling it's a he) is one of the survivors.

And yes I can hear the shouts of "It's just a game!"
But even though games don't perpetuate violence, fiction is a lot more persuasive than fact. You put down your defenses when reading a book or watching a movie, and Im pretty sure games are no different. You are more receptive to the messages that this item sends you, and none of them are positive. (The most obvious of which being "Dead people are sexy.")
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #173 on: January 25, 2013, 05:44:45 pm
Dead whores deserve it for being whores, somehow, is what I get from Dead Island devs more than anything. A very common theme in Regan-era american horror movies as well, where the only person to survive the serial killer would be the virtuous virgin.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #174 on: February 08, 2013, 06:17:25 pm
Wheeeeew.

Good quagmire you've managed to set up here, earthlings.  ;D

I've read through the entire thread and most of the links. The parodies of absurd female posing are highly amusing, and enlightening too.

Can I get a little on-topic? Or at least try? I think I'll fail miserably.

First and foremost: I consider the over-abundance and over-flaunting of biological airbags stupid. The contortionist poses are also pretty stupid, and most of them don't even look sexy to me. The occasional well-endowed woman is alright (just as in real life) but making all female characters an army of cookie-cutter automotive safety devices is just plain monotonous, shallow and boring (that is, objectionable from an artistic standpoint without even getting into the sexual objectification component...)


An egregious example of stupid airbag designs:
Taki from the Soul Calibur franchise: http://www.videogamegirlsdb.com/Images/Soul_Calibur/Taki/Taki_SC_Legends_01.jpg
Form-fitting overalls? Ok, fine, alright. Independent envelopes for each of the boobs?! What the f*ck?! And how the hell does the suit go INTO HER BELLY BUTTON?! I must assume such an outfit comes with a little vaccuum device to fit it "properly"  :yell:

Drive safely. Drive with Taki.  :blind:

Some mixed examples from manga:

Kiasca from Berserk, by Kentaro Miura: http://yuki-chat.org/shimmie/_images/d4f78ff9ae45c2b9860c4b14a4f7af54/2001%20-%20armor%20berserk%20casca%20monochrome.jpg

Kiasca is a very capable badass girl with some scars (none in the face, though). She's the most dangerous mercenary in her troupe besides the protagonist and said troupe's leader. Little to no emphasis is usually placed on her boobs, or other typically feminine qualities, except in some sporadic scenes. Unfortunately, the character is ultimately objectified when she becomes mad and aphasic after a harrowing experience where oceans of blood were shed. In her defense, I have to say that all other characters involved in the event that turned her into an "object" qualify for at least one element of this list, either prior to or as a result of that event:
a) killed
b) maimed
c) demons

Gally/Alita from Gunnm (aka Battle Angel Alita) http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m889l0Zy4r1qbewsko1_1280.jpg

I think this character is a particularly interesting example as it shows both objectification and actification of the same female character at different points and levels of the story.
Objectification:
1) She's a complete cyborg. That fits a literal interpretation of the word "objectification", and a close metaphor for the kind of objectification we're talking about here.
2) From the design (this one IS big-boobed, qualifying for "boobs of steel" too, both literally and as the trope) it's clear that it's designed as an "object of desire".
3) she is subject to several very clear objectification attempts by other characters in the plot:
-The first story arc revolves about a cyber-doc rebuilding her from a derelict cyborg torso+head. She starts the story as, literally, an object: a piece of scrap. Then said cyberdoc reactivates "her", and tries to make her into some sort of daughter/wife husbandry hobby project. HE FAILS MISERABLY. Throughout the plot there are a myriad other attempts to objectify her, both by antagonists and "good guys". Some of them fail heroically, some of them succeed horribly, but she is always strong enough to break through the objectification, sooner or later, in one way or another.
4) She is actified to a high degree as she is the main driving force in the story, and what she does is much more important than what or how she is.

I'd go into a detailed analysis of the objectification attempts on the main character in this comic, but the post is already long enough.

Whoops, we were supposed to be talking about vidya gaems rite?
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #175 on: March 08, 2013, 05:52:27 am
OK, this is just retarded..
He's trying to sound legitimate but uses derogatory words and just pure misogynist logic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGuDoAhte94

Brings up some interesting thoughts though..
In this thread we've talked about games being directed at men through sexuality and portrayal of women.
But is there other ways of directing games towards men? Violent games for example. Speaking broadly, I think men are much more fascinated and amused by violence than women.
The question is if it's only a cultural thing, and if so, should the cultural difference of men and women be taken into account when directing games towards both genders?
Because that seems misogynist in it's own way..
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 06:20:30 am by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #176 on: March 08, 2013, 08:21:25 am
That video is unbearable for me to watch.

Quote
Gamers?

Sure, I guess

If you consider bitching a game.


....


Which I don't.
That's where I should have turned it off. I endured until his first point about casual gamers being female and that was enough for me. I don't know how you can stomach this tripe.


On a more positive note, this has started!

http://youtu.be/X6p5AZp7r_Q

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #177 on: March 08, 2013, 12:18:24 pm
But is there other ways of directing games towards men? Violent games for example. Speaking broadly, I think men are much more fascinated and amused by violence than women.
The question is if it's only a cultural thing, and if so, should the cultural difference of men and women be taken into account when directing games towards both genders?
Because that seems misogynist in it's own way..

Didn't want to watch that misogynist video, seen enough of those. (Happy that the woman vs trope thing has started.)
The feministfrequency actually has more videos that are pretty helpful with realizing how these things actually are... I think the reason why men are interested in violence is partly because men are portrayed as being interested and resorting to violence. It's "normal" for a boy to be interested in guns and wargames.
Im not sure whether we -need- to direct anything toward either gender. Why can't a sim be for both boys and girls? What about a wargame like Battlefield or whatever is inappropriate for a female gamer? In the past advertisement has made an entire anatomical detail "unsightly" that before was considered ok. That's armpit hair.

I read this big article some time back about there being more progress with gender roles in the 70s, but in the 80s a backlash of anti-feminism turned that right back.
Here it is: http://www.udel.edu/comm245/readings/GenderedMedia.pdf


(Lastly: There was a post educating people about the fact that boobplates are scientifically and historically unsound. I spent some time arguing with a person that bashing on this post stupid, and that we need to educate content providers so we don't perpetuate sexism. He said that mistreatment of women is all down to upbringing and has nothing to do with media.

REALLY? Fuck you. Some parents fucking raise their children by popping them in front of the TV. 8l It's not like humans live in a barrel their childhoods and their parents just talk into the barrel. "Girls can't lead, they are too emotional!" "Boys can't be home-dads, they are too emotionless!" GRUMBLE.)

EDIT: Tried to make it more understandable as a sentence.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 01:19:16 pm by Ymedron »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #178 on: March 08, 2013, 12:56:42 pm
Even if it's all down to upbringing, part of upbringing is socialization thu peers and school and other activities that aren't closely monitored by parents all the time (and if they were that would create a whole host of other problems). And peer groups especially are much more infuential for shaping gender roles than what parents tell their children directly. If we want a better world we must make it better on all fronts.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #179 on: March 08, 2013, 04:30:21 pm
It's kinda weird how much energy and thought goes into this anti-feminism movement.
I didn't even know it was a thing..

I'm starting to see it everywhere, when attention is given to underprivileged groups, all of a sudden the privileged group feel threatened and powerless..
The scales haven't shifted, it's just becoming slightly more balanced, but for some people that seems like the end of the world..

And the culture argument is terrible..
"But it's in our culture!!" Well your culture is just terrible then..

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #180 on: March 08, 2013, 05:26:25 pm
I'm starting to see it everywhere, when attention is given to underprivileged groups, all of a sudden the privileged group feel threatened and powerless..
The scales haven't shifted, it's just becoming slightly more balanced, but for some people that seems like the end of the world..

Revelant: http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privileged/

I thought this had been posted before, but I skimmed the thread and didn't see it. The article is more focused on gay marriage specifically, but it goes a long way toward explaining "counter revolutions" in general.
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #181 on: March 08, 2013, 05:43:04 pm
I'm starting to see it everywhere, when attention is given to underprivileged groups, all of a sudden the privileged group feel threatened and powerless..
The scales haven't shifted, it's just becoming slightly more balanced, but for some people that seems like the end of the world..

Revelant: http://weeklysift.com/2012/09/10/the-distress-of-the-privileged/

I thought this had been posted before, but I skimmed the thread and didn't see it. The article is more focused on gay marriage specifically, but it goes a long way toward explaining "counter revolutions" in general.

Great read, anyone who's read this thread might also see why I can relate ;D

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #182 on: March 09, 2013, 03:52:26 am
But is there other ways of directing games towards men? Violent games for example. Speaking broadly, I think men are much more fascinated and amused by violence than women.
The question is if it's only a cultural thing, and if so, should the cultural difference of men and women be taken into account when directing games towards both genders?
Because that seems misogynist in it's own way..

Didn't want to watch that misogynist video, seen enough of those. (Happy that the woman vs trope thing has started.)
The feministfrequency actually has more videos that are pretty helpful with realizing how these things actually are... I think the reason why men are interested in violence is partly because men are portrayed as being interested and resorting to violence. It's "normal" for a boy to be interested in guns and wargames.
Im not sure whether we -need- to direct anything toward either gender. Why can't a sim be for both boys and girls? What about a wargame like Battlefield or whatever is inappropriate for a female gamer? In the past advertisement has made an entire anatomical detail "unsightly" that before was considered ok. That's armpit hair.

You might like this bit of news, apparently sweden is trying out a gender neutral pronoun for children =)
http://www.disinfo.com/2012/04/sweden-to-use-new-gender-neutral-pronoun-hen/

That whole discussion also reminded me of hearing something a Kogi said in a speech once, he was telling us about how when children become used to playing war the culture has changed and the soul has changed, they're not the same anymore. No kogi child is like that.

Hit me real hard too because I thought it was natural, I thought if they didnt make toy guns then the kids would tie stick together to make their own...but then I realized...no, no Schwarzenegger, no gun worship =/.

Honestly, I still dislike the label feminism. I understand that it's actually about equality but why isnt it called gender/sex equality then? I have personally had contact with women who really become abusive to men thinking they're being feminist, clearly these women arent very smart and arent delving deep into the roots of the movement, but that is what is bound to happen with language, I think it's the same as with sex specific children pronouns.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:58:42 am by Conceit »

Offline Ai

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #183 on: March 09, 2013, 05:47:07 am
If we're getting into topics like:
Quote
Why can't a sim be for both boys and girls? What about a wargame like Battlefield or whatever is inappropriate for a female gamer?

then I feel obligated to link this Norwegian video documentary series, particularly part 1 and perhaps part 6.

Summary: What sociologists say about gender roles, sexuality, and behaviour appears to come from ideological belief rather than evidence, and there is convincing evidence that there are some broad differences in preferences that arise before birth. In part 1 the fact that gender segregation in jobs increases the 'free-er'/ more equal a country is, is discussed. Consistent preferences for either systematizing (males) or socializing (females) seem to exist from infancy.

I linked that mainly to say, it would mean that to develop a sim that appeals to both sexes (in a 'broad market appeal' sense: the average man, the average woman), you'd need to have strong elements of both systematizing and socializing in the game, with an even balance.
I'm coming up blank as to any games that have achieved a solid balance of those, actually.



EDIT: retracted (see video Helm links below)

Quote
...arguing with a person that bashing on a post that educates people boobplates are not scientifically or historically sound is stupid, ...
I'm confused. It looks like something got pasted in where it didn't belong, or left out. In any case I didn't understand that sentence, and I'm pretty sure 'boobplates' isn't even a word.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 01:47:02 am by Ai »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #184 on: March 09, 2013, 11:07:38 am
It is very possible said genetic differences between genders have been overstated by the scientific community because of their want to further a cultural agenda, be it consciously or subconsciously so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leQiMBPUz0g

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #185 on: March 09, 2013, 11:46:18 am
It is very possible said genetic differences between genders have been overstated by the scientific community because of their want to further a cultural agenda, be it consciously or subconsciously so.
Definitely -- I would go further and say it's practically guaranteed that is the case. I don't want to convey the idea that genetics is all there is, but rather that it's significant enough that it's just as harmful to say 'no genetics is involved in gender' as it is to say 'genetics is all there is to gender'. The former proposition seems to be popular among feminists, but is obviously an exaggeration -- and one that causes unnecessary confusion.

EDIT: after watching the below video, I'm convinced that there is no proof for gendered behaviour/neurology. My belief that gender identity has a genetic component is unchanged.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leQiMBPUz0g
Looks like it's probably an excellent video, from what I can find out about Cordelia Fine. I'll watch it when I have an hour spare :)

« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 01:51:19 am by Ai »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #186 on: March 09, 2013, 12:29:53 pm
Quote
...arguing with a person that bashing on a post that educates people boobplates are not scientifically or historically sound is stupid, ...
I'm confused. It looks like something got pasted in where it didn't belong, or left out. In any case I didn't understand that sentence, and I'm pretty sure 'boobplates' isn't even a word.
There was a post on tumblr that explained how boob-shapes in the chestplate actually direct sword blows to your heart, as well as falling over while wearing one will direct the force on the bone at the middle of your ribcage -> severe damage -> risk of death. Thus it is scientifically unsound to wear one as protection.

I think feminism is called feminism is because females are so inequal to men that you have to focus on females to get anything done. Even now people are crying "We are already equal!", so an equalist movement might well die out just from lack of attention.
Alternatively, females are kinda bitter about having to accomodate men all the time?
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #187 on: March 09, 2013, 10:08:42 pm
Quote
...arguing with a person that bashing on a post that educates people boobplates are not scientifically or historically sound is stupid, ...
I'm confused. It looks like something got pasted in where it didn't belong, or left out. In any case I didn't understand that sentence, and I'm pretty sure 'boobplates' isn't even a word.
There was a post on tumblr that explained how boob-shapes in the chestplate actually direct sword blows to your heart, as well as falling over while wearing one will direct the force on the bone at the middle of your ribcage -> severe damage -> risk of death. Thus it is scientifically unsound to wear one as protection.
Oh, so a missing 'that' after 'people', and attachment of the subordinate clause 'is stupid' in an ambiguous place. Gotcha.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #188 on: March 10, 2013, 12:35:55 am
Hehe, sorry. I'm actually too derpy to even understand how to improve the sentence..! LANGUAGE BARRIER, THOU HAST FORSAKEN ME.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #189 on: March 10, 2013, 01:43:54 am

Quote from: Ymedron
LANGUAGE BARRIER, THOU HAST FORSAKEN ME.
I thought the whole problem was that it refused to forsake you ;)

To be more instructive, the basic problem is really that you constructed a huge lumbering beast of a sentence to start with.
I'd fix it by breaking it up a bit more.

Original:
Quote
Lastly, I spent some time arguing with a person that bashing on a post that educates people boobplates are not scientifically or historically sound is stupid, and that we need to educate content providers so we don't perpetuate sexism. He said that mistreatment of women is all down to upbringing and has nothing to do with media.

Altered:
Quote
Lastly: A person was bashing on a post that educates people that boobplates are not scientifically or historically sound. I spent some time arguing with them that bashing it is stupid and we need to educate content providers so we don't perpetuate sexism. He said that mistreatment of women is all down to upbringing and has nothing to do with media.


Quote from: Helm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leQiMBPUz0g
Okay, I take back my previous post -- including the claim that this video looks excellent. It is brilliant and worth watching for pretty much anybody. Thanks Helm!

Now I'll have to find a different way to deal with the fact I find 'male' behaviour so idiotic and grating. O L  :)
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #190 on: March 10, 2013, 05:34:36 am

Quote from: Ymedron
LANGUAGE BARRIER, THOU HAST FORSAKEN ME.
I thought the whole problem was that it refused to forsake you ;)

Oh the irony? :D

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #191 on: March 10, 2013, 01:17:21 pm
W-well maybe it fors... Forsaketh me from passing through its gate to the other side?

I'll try to fix that phrase, arh! Thank you. ;W;
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #192 on: March 11, 2013, 08:09:13 am
I'm glad you enjoed that video and happy to be spreading awareness on the issue.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #193 on: March 11, 2013, 06:19:15 pm
I shared that video on facebook, after watching it I felt it would be irresponsible not to. Thanks Helm!  :)
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #194 on: March 12, 2013, 07:07:24 am
http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/11/donkey-kong-hack-gives-pauline-the-central-role-32-years-later/

So apparently people are really provoked by that..

Oh, god, why..



edit: oh apparently it's satire :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:41:38 am by Seiseki »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #195 on: March 16, 2013, 01:20:38 am
It is very possible said genetic differences between genders have been overstated by the scientific community because of their want to further a cultural agenda, be it consciously or subconsciously so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leQiMBPUz0g

Not wanting to rain on anyones parade here, but Fine has been criticised for cherry picking, but that does not mean she is not making any good points.

I personally would think that it would be quite naive to suggest that homo-sapiens somehow managed to out-evolve behaviour which seems to be very hardwired in primates and other mammals, and that everything we do in terms of gender is purely cultural. I am not saying nothing is culture, but saying all is culture is unsubstantiated.

I hereby will take a pause from this again, because I generally do not enjoy arguing on the net, but I think we should to and look at things objectively and not get skewed in either direction without looking at the data for ourselves.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #196 on: March 16, 2013, 03:31:21 am
so I just stumbled my way into a blog from a link here, and I've been doing it for waaay to long now...I thought I'd come back and post some of the better posts...

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/image/18307887917 <-this one I love

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/17876137288/fernacular-welcome-to-if-male-superhero

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/19540897344/scloutier-submitted-i-have-made-it-all-make

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/19133252752/frostback-submitted-on-discomfort-was-just

eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/19178314324/betheothergirl-submitted-thought-you-might-find

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/17480534802/ficcr-submitted

http://missturdle.tumblr.com/post/43587146942/on-the-importance-of-magical-girl-heroines <-actually a girl's confession/analysis of the love of shoujo

then I realized you guys were having a nature vs nurture argument about this...oh well maybe some of ya can use the break? :p sorry that I dont add anything to it...

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #197 on: March 16, 2013, 12:29:53 pm
Admittedly, homo sapiens has the least amount of gender differences of the great apes, from what I remember.
Humans are still evolving, though in ways that we don't usually notice as we can't observe our past as objectively as we can with other species.
Sexism as a whole might well be a remnant from our ancestry where the social community might well have been somewhat similar to chimps or bonobos (Tyrannical male and stuff). However, this shouldn't be an argument for humans to just give up on equality. After all, we have pissed in the eye of every other "natural" process so far, why not improve on the equality of genders too?

I'm not making much sense, sorry.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #198 on: March 16, 2013, 03:02:24 pm
I never said give up on equality, I am all for equality. But also let's not deny possible genetic factors and pretend everything is cultural. It clearly is not. We as humans have the benefit that we can generally learn about and control our urges quite well, when it comes to mentally stable individuals.

And just as a thought experiment: Imagine there is in fact some genetical tendency to rape which is stronger in certain men. Would you rather try to look into this scientifically so we can understand it better, or pretend it is all cultural and deny possible scientific findings away?
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #199 on: March 16, 2013, 04:06:46 pm
Who has criticized her for cherry picking? Sources? It's amusing because she criticises others for cherry-picking from their datas.

And even if there's a genetic basis for these things, culturally it doesn't matter because society is not entered on and build upon the foundation of protecting every biological tendency of the human animal.

To your question, of course we must have hard science (or as hard as we can get it) on these things, never turn our eyes away from what it shows.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #200 on: March 16, 2013, 04:19:47 pm
This is not specifically about Fine, but she is mentioned as well and sources are given.

http://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2012/12/01/science-denialism-at-a-skeptic-conference/
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #201 on: March 16, 2013, 04:22:47 pm
And even if there's a genetic basis for these things, culturally it doesn't matter because society is not entered on and build upon the foundation of protecting every biological tendency of the human animal.

But culture very likely is influenced to some degree by those biological tendencies. I am sure we can overcome them, but no through dogmatic assertion that they are not there, but through understanding of the science behind them. That's all I am saying.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #202 on: March 16, 2013, 05:03:23 pm
I remember there was a drug that pedophiles are/may/will be given that suppresses their sexual drive so that they can function in society. Couldn't this kind of thing be used for people with a tendency to rape too? Treat violent dominance as the mental issue it is?

I actually didn't realize you were talking about tendency to rape being based on biology, I thought you were talking about the arguments that women are biologically more prone to nurturing children -> women should do it and leave the male things to males. (There was a study in norway that showed that girls do have an interest for 'girly' things when they could choose. Imo that means that while we should support females doing male things, we also need to support females doing traditional things. Aka, people need to be able to do the things they want to do.)
Anyway that was my own inattentiveness, sorry about that. I agree that we need to study humans and human behaviour to really understand what's going on here.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #203 on: March 16, 2013, 05:26:15 pm
I don't know if there is evidence for rape being genetically caused, that was just a hypothetical scenario.

When it comes to "girly" things, I would be a bit skeptical. I imagine there can be a case made for women being more drawn to nurture children for example. This can be observed in all primates too.

But I would be skeptical when people say, women are more likely to want to stay at home and tend the house and all that. I am just not willing to make too quick decisions and make up my mind either way without having solid evidence one way or the other.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #204 on: March 16, 2013, 05:58:13 pm
The study was mainly just showing babies toys and seeing what they looked at for longer - female babies had more interest in dolls and such. Though I wonder if there was something else at work there. I agreed with the notion that both biology and culture have an influence on human behaviour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrsF7wyUxs8
I'm not sure whether the "youth's choices are more traditional than 15 years ago" is because of the anti-feminist backlash that has taken place in the media (according to http://www.udel.edu/comm245/readings/GenderedMedia.pdf) or if it's actually people being more free to do what they want.
Though... 15 years ago choosing traditional jobs would have been just as easy as it is now... HM, Im confused..!


edit: I watched the first episode again, and have to say I really am not sure what to believe in..! The brain does distinguish very strongly what gender body they have, but does that mean other parts of the brain are based on this distinction, or is it simply one part? Like the sense of where your body is (that allows you to touch your nose) or something like that.
EDIT 5000: Disregard me, I really don't know how things are supposed to be. D:
Regarding the rape as a hypothetical situation, I remember finding out that rape is mainly caused by males who think "how dare you deny me, I'll put you in your place!" which would mean they are especially used to being in control (Dominant, a trait caused by testosterone ((just look at hyenas))), or are insecure about themselves (Not necessarily caused by lack of testosterone but might be?)... So yeah.
HRM, all of these claims I make without access to research or checking the internet for data, just from what I remember. Which is of course a bad way to make a claim...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 06:27:03 pm by Ymedron »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #205 on: March 16, 2013, 07:09:15 pm
Just watched those videos, and it's nothing new to me. You have sociologically minded people who say everything is culture and dismiss everything that suggests there is anything at all rooted in biology apart from obvious visual differences. I would say that is intellectually dishonest. It is similar to religious people saying humans are somehow special and fundamentally different from other animals. We ARE animals, we share common ancestors, the rational part of our brain is way younger than the automatic and emotional parts of our brain. We too are guided by survival instincts, and those, I am pretty sure, influence how we behave. And I reckon it is fair to assume that these also vary between the genders to some degree.

None of this means that men and women should not all be able to do whatever they want in terms of jobs and so on, but I find it very disingenuous to dismiss everything biological out of hand.

Gonna read that Gendered Media thing when I have time. I reckon it is about how strongly media compartmentalises the sexes?
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #206 on: March 16, 2013, 07:48:00 pm
I am of both minds on the subject.

I mean, on one hand absolutely bring on the science, as thick as possible. We must know as much as possible.

On the other, if bad science is used as a smokescreen for ideologues that want to keep half of the world's population 'in its place' then besides fixing the science, we also need injections of imagination in the culture not of what 'women are' but of what 'they can be and want to be'. This is what I mean about moving aside from the purely biological. It's not like we are acting in accordance to our basest biology all the time. Sure, these drives inform our every move, but also there is a mediation within cultural narratives and the power of imagination. It is there that the critical battle will be won. The science will ultimately fall either here or there.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #207 on: March 16, 2013, 07:52:40 pm
--Gonna read that Gendered Media thing when I have time. I reckon it is about how strongly media compartmentalises the sexes?
Yes, basically. It also has stuff about how stuff has changed, and has a couple of real examples of damage done by for example men being portrayed as being completetly helpless at home.
I found it by googling "how media influences the treatment of women" (it brings up other interesting pages too) when I tried to find proof for that one jerk that media does have an influence on us.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #208 on: March 16, 2013, 07:57:18 pm
I totally agree with you, Helm. We as humans should always strive for the "what could be" in all regards. If you watch that video(s) Ymedron has linked, I reckon you would be hard pressed to see those scientists who argue there is some biological component at work to be trying to keep women down.

And it is just as dangerous to fall prey to a dogmatic idea of equality which has to go so far that all possible differences have to be denied away or your worldview will be shattered. Again, we see differences in all species in nature which reproduce sexually and where there are 2 genders. To assume that the differences there are cultural is of course silly. And to assume that humans are somehow exempt from this is just as silly. We probably have greater rational faculties than any other organism on earth, so we can counter this somewhat. That is pretty much a given. And again, I am all for equality when it comes to jobs and all that, but I am not willing to swallow out of mere ideological conjecture that humans are fundamentally different from all other animals.

Ymedron: Yes of course media and general stereotypes have huge influences on us. The studies which have shown that women who have been told that it is bullshit that women are worse at math (which it is) perform better at math than women who are told that women are generally worse at math than men. These kinda stereotypes are worth being torn down. I would also argue that men suffer from these kinda stereotypes as well, if it is more or less than women I wont argue, I don't know. But the portrayal of superheroes and men in television and media in general builds up a skewed and unrealistic picture of an ideal as well, just as the portrayal of women does.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 08:01:29 pm by ptoing »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #209 on: March 16, 2013, 08:11:17 pm
Hm, yes, that is sensible. Especially considering how the two genders do have physiological differences like musclemass and stuff like that. My ideal is that humans and related species are able to consciously control how they behave (I remember a document that showed a baboon trying to avoid a dangerous confrontation by using a baby as a kind of shield to prevent the other male from attacking.) rather than being controlled by emotion all the time.
In short, emotion is what connects us with other animals, logic is what separates us? Maybe that's too extreme. We'd need to know more about animals' thought processes first.

The tumblr-style extreme feminism kind of does make you feel shitty about yourself in the end. For example, I wrote something along the lines of "the story of a person -blahblah-" and "and the story of his friend -blah blah-", and immediately felt shitty for qualifying the friend (female) as just being a friend of the person?? I think it's going too far when you can't even write a casual phrase without feeling bad about not planning your sentences perfectly... Hrm.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #210 on: March 16, 2013, 08:23:02 pm
I agree with you there. Also it is kinda ironical that people who say they are all for equality call their movement feminism. I think focus on one gender is silly. It might be that women have it harder in some regards, but there are cases in which men get the short end of the stick, and saying all this is due to patriarchy is stupid, because you can attribute everything to it if you wanted to.

Like how women atm usually get custody: This is because of patriarchy enforcing the view that women should tend to the children.
If it was the other way round I am sure some would say: The patriarchy is shafting women by taking away custody rights.

This is not a sound way to argue.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #211 on: March 16, 2013, 08:32:39 pm
I don't know... we are the only animal with such extensive culture work and a sense of history and complex language. I do not think it's silly to insinuate the power of community over the power of biology as far as gender roles go.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #212 on: March 16, 2013, 08:41:21 pm
I am sure that culture plays a certain role in it. But I also doubt that a couple of 1000 or 10000 years of culture can counter 100000s or millions of years of evolutionary pressure and natural selection.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #213 on: March 16, 2013, 08:46:40 pm
Well, not counter, but comment and contrast and complexify. Look at what human beings have done in 5,000 years as opposed to other animals in... forever.

You're a bit to rigid on a point that in philosophy and sciene is wiiide open, is what I'm hinting at.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #214 on: March 16, 2013, 08:52:58 pm
Other animals have not done shit in forever because they fit their niche. There is no reason to change if you are adapted brilliantly.

What we have done in the last 5000 years is due to using our intellect and science. Which is how humans fit into their environment, by molding it to their needs (and also fucking it up). I do not think that I am being rigid at all when I hold the point that both nature and nurture play significant roles in human development as well as gender roles.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #215 on: March 16, 2013, 08:58:41 pm
My theory:
Feminism comes from the fact that females have gotten the shorTER end of the stick, therefore it would be difficult to get anywhere if the movement started out as "equalism." Females have been the driving force behind this movement at the start, and thus they focused on those whom they knew were damaged by the situation the most - themselves.

ALSO the fact that if the whole movement was hijacked by males wanting better treatment, it might well become so that males aren't damaged by the situation (aka there isn't any "you have to be masculine bluh bluh") but females still have the same shit going on for them as they did before.
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Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #216 on: March 16, 2013, 09:02:29 pm
The patriarchy definitely damages males as the male ideal is impossible for even the most hot blooded male. But of course women, gay and trans and misc other sexual identities get the worst of it.

Sven, I am saying you might be overstating the important of nature over nurture and I don't know how up and up you are on the science. That lengthy article rebutting a different feminist isn't much, for me. Also there is philosophy tied into all of this and culture studies... it's a lot of work to keep current. Let's just remind ourselves to not be very certain about these things and seek capable people-filters that can explain it to us in clear ways in the future.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #217 on: March 16, 2013, 09:12:05 pm
Yeah, I see where you are coming from and I do agree to some degree. The problem I have is when you get bigotry such as in the case where some woman cut her husband's penis off, and this was subsequently joked about on US TV by a bunch of celebrity women. If it was the other way, the behaviour would be deemed highly offensive and inappropriate. I by no means agree with a lot what MRA people say, I want equal rights for everyone, but I also do not want radicalism and bigotry, not matter from which direction.

Helm: agreed.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #218 on: March 16, 2013, 09:17:33 pm
Ah yeah that's not cool at all. Joking about violence toward either gender is hideous. It just hurts everyone's case, as those who hold extremist views get lumped together with everyone who holds vaguely related (but more sensible) views.
Insulting a bigot about his/her appearance (such as weight) is highly inappropriate as well.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #219 on: March 16, 2013, 09:22:20 pm
Indeed, people should be called out on their behaviour and ideas and not on their appearance or other things they had no real say in.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #220 on: March 21, 2013, 12:11:31 am
W-T-F is this..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SpwBG2Dtpmk

It's like a bunch of guys thought it was a good idea to base a game on japanese hentai and also make it into an Free to play MMO.
"Well, so many guys play female characters in MMOs, why not just make a game with only female characters and huge boobs.."

In this game though, it's not just the oversized proportions, there's some extremely over the top sexualization and perversions pretty much everywhere.
If it was branded as porn it probably wouldn't be as weird and disturbing..

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #221 on: March 25, 2013, 11:20:22 am
I think the Scarlet Blade MMO takes place in the already established setting of the ecchi (mainly boob fetish) Queen's Blade animé and Queen's Gate fighting game. It does indeed look rather narrow and monotonous in its presentation, compared to say Second Life's... plenitudes.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #222 on: April 08, 2013, 09:44:10 am
Queens Blade/Scarlet Blade is completely unaffiliated with and unrelated to the Queen's Blade series of books/anime/games.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #223 on: April 08, 2013, 01:11:32 pm
Related to scarlet blade, I saw someone redesign the armors:
http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/47247967084/full-set-of-the-scarlet-blade-redesigns-i-did-not

I think this looks really good, and would make me actually want to play that game and not complain every second of the time (as happened with Tera, where I -was- constantly complaining.)
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #224 on: April 08, 2013, 10:28:26 pm
Did you actually watch a video of the game? It looks super shallow in gameplay and you have an autopilot which just makes your characters go where they need to go, and while they run along you can zoom in on boobs or ass and such. Anyone with half a brain would get bored to shit fast and find better ways to get their wank on I imagine.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #225 on: April 09, 2013, 12:10:09 pm
Really? I thought it'd be more like a team-fortress mmo style game. Well, then it's a total waste. 8l
(admittedly most mmo:s are already extremely brainless and boring, since they jst copy the wow-timesink model without any rhyme or reason. If you are free to play, at least make the game fun enough to make people stick with it. BAH.)
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Offline CrazyMLC

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #226 on: April 09, 2013, 01:21:08 pm
Scarlet Blade is basically porn attempting to pretend to be a game. There are much better ways to spend your time and, really, it shouldn't be taken seriously.

The fact that anyone really bothers to play it is troublesome, though. There's obviously nothing that special about it, so people would only play for the porn aspect. And it seems to be working.
It's more of a problem with the fact that sex sells. People will sometimes make dumb purchases for the sake of satisfying their arousal.

It'd be even less of a problem if this was solely in "games" or other media like Scarlet Blade. But you see much subtler versions of this everywhere.
If you ask me, guys usually aren't anywhere near as sexualized. They usually have a much more respectable image, something you could look up to... Then some of the women are basically on the verge of becoming strippers. It's really sad when a game, or really any media that doesn't have the intention of being porn, is like that.

Just look at a game like League of Legends. It's one of the most popular multiplayer PC games out there right now, and every other female character in it has an unlockable appearance that makes them look like a slut. And these unlockables cost real money. And people buy them.
Don't get me wrong, I like playing League of Legends itself, but it's still an issue.

The main problems there are probably that Most Gamers Are Male, not to mention Men Are Generic, Women Are Special and Male Gaze. I'm willing to bet most game developers are male, as well.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with characters being attractive. As long as it's somewhat equal between genders and it doesn't get too absurd. I feel like I've seen a fair amount of games pull this off, and it's fine in my opinion. I mean, are you going to start telling Hollywood to not use attractive people as the stars in their movies? As long as nobody's turned into a sex object it's all k.

It's all about keeping a healthy balance.


That said, I wonder if there'll ever be a game like Scarlet Blade that only has sexualized men, instead of ladies? Wouldn't that would be interesting, haha.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #227 on: April 09, 2013, 10:37:46 pm
Hmm, yeah. Looks like Queen's Blade/Scarlet Blade and Queen's Blade are completely unrelated indeed. Well, other than the things which are obviously similar. Meh, I won't blame myself for making the connection.

CrazyMLC> The sexy-men-mmo would be a sight to behold. I'm guessing it would primarily have models like Archer from Fate/Extra CCC (in his speedo outfit) and maybe a boy sidekick.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #228 on: April 11, 2013, 01:47:32 pm
Not having the time to read this entire thread I will just post my thoughts.

If male leads in video games are allowed to always be attractive, perfect jaw-lined, hugely muscular and overall what is portrayed in the media as a "perfect man" or "hot" like so:



[imghttp://androidspin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/duke-nukem-3d.png[/img]http://

them i'm sure that it's not just women being sexualized. Men are being sexualized but in a different way. If media has told us that a sexy woman is a scantily clad one with large breasts and waist then that is what game developers are going to put in for their "sexy" characters. The same goes for when game developers want to make "powerful" men, as "powerful" men are considered sexually appealing. It is hard for men to be scantily clad in a sexual manner in the first place: If a game character had a topless male in shorts, covered in sweat and muscles with a godly jawline and perfect hair, then people would just brush it off as being a strong guy because in our day and age that sort of thing is acceptable. However, if you saw a woman, sporting all the tropes of being stereotypically "sexy" with taboo areas (of which she has more of, as less things seem to be considered sexualized in a large manner in men) having small amounts of clothing on them then everyone will instantly go to the thought that this is not acceptable. So why should one gender be allowed to be sexualized and have it seem normal but the other gender get sexualized in a similar manner but have it seem unacceptable and degrading?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #229 on: April 11, 2013, 03:44:25 pm
Why don't you read the entire thread when you have the time? It answers your questions.

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #230 on: April 11, 2013, 04:06:57 pm


If men were portrayed like this, I'd put some more value on your argument, imnumberfour.

Edit: TO BE MORE DESCRIPTIVE... Quick bullet points on why men being idealized =/= females being sexualized.
  • Men are shown as capable and strong, something men want to be
  • Women are shown as sexy and beautiful, something men want to have
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:11:14 pm by Ymedron »
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #231 on: April 12, 2013, 12:33:31 pm
To be fair you could totally go:

  • Women are shown as sexy and beautiful, something women want to be
  • Men are shown as capable and strong, something women want to have

Which is true as well. The stereotyping of both genders which happens all the time is not a great thing either way. But it is also true that esp. games are a medium which seem mainly geared toward men, at least the mainstream.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #232 on: April 12, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
That's true too, but usually the male characters aren't designed to be especially appealing to females. I remember there being a study that women's preferences for males change during menstruation. When they are ready to mate they want a male that's really masculine and strong, but after they have had the children, they want a male that is more feminine and cares for the children more.
(Humans are apparently in between a both parents care-type situation and a one-parent-cares situation, but the first clause is forced by culture. hence unfaithfulness. http://trendingsideways.com/index.php/the-biology-of-human-behavior-robert-sapolskys-key-insights/, the third paragraph down is my proof for this thought.)

At least personalitywise most video-game characters are not very appealing to me as a female, because they are either emotionless or super-angry and violent.
Not something I'd assume a woman wants for a husband or something. (Though hypocritically I can appreciate characters like the main character from Deus Ex who are having a lot of drama, but that's more because I like woobie characters. It would be exhausting to have a friend/partner like that.)

Of course there are probably women who want a capable and strong husband for various reasons, but I'm doubtful that's entirely out of sexual appreciation.

Meanwhile the females are portrayed as sex-lusty supermodels in the worst cases that I can remember (Starfire in that infamous comic), something that a cliched male might especially desire.

The first thing a lot of people seem to mention about a female videogame/action flick character is how they'd love to bang that character/how ugly they looked, even people whose opinions I otherwise value. :c


Edit: Also I'm really sorry about my shitty formatting. I'll be editing this now, so try to bear with me.
Edit 2: hope that's better. D:
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 02:01:18 pm by Ymedron »
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Offline Arne

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #233 on: April 12, 2013, 03:35:39 pm
Seeing the picture of the sexy bearded man, my mind conjured the image of the growling steroid inflated female Kratos (tat tits swinging about in her ballet of destruction) which would come and rescue/seduce him...

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #234 on: April 12, 2013, 06:21:19 pm
No, for it to be a complete reversal the guy would have to be climbing up her feet in a typical Conan fashion. 8U! *or would he? Don't know enough about God of War*
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #235 on: April 12, 2013, 07:51:07 pm
When I think of "a male character whose appearance has been exagerately modified to please the female audience (to a point that I may find disgusting)", I think of Alucard. I don't know to what extent it compensate the presence of big-boobed characters, but I'm not sure it would make sense to present alluring male characters because it gives me the feeling that noone is impressed. Neither boys nor girls.

On the other hand, someone exageratedly surrounded with mystery (pose) and handsome (dressing) is something that is often encountered, and (afaik) which triggers the same kind of response for the (young) female audience than big-boobs produce on the young/lonely male audience which is the target for Soul Calibur and such.

(Note: this is just a personal feeling based on local observation, with no intent to reach high psychologic level)

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #236 on: April 12, 2013, 08:01:47 pm
Guess the problem is more that there is a greater variation in males, whether they are bishonen or bear in style, with plenty of variation between both of these.

With females characters seem to gravitate toward either jailbait or pornstar in most noticed games. I know there are some who don't, but they are far less in numbers than the male equivalent.

I feel like we are recovering old ground again.
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Offline imnumberfour

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #237 on: April 12, 2013, 08:50:55 pm
So it's less so a case of their looks but more the personality they are presented with?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #238 on: April 12, 2013, 09:59:24 pm
It's a lot of things. It's about the intentions of the designers. It's the conflict between appearance and personality, it's the lack of variety, it's the way others treat them and the way the story treats them. I wish you'd just read through the thread instead, I can't explain myself without worrying that I'm giving you the wrong impression.
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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #239 on: April 13, 2013, 11:20:57 pm
Would enjoy people's thoughts about this video and the author's other videos and stance on feminism in general. Not only is she well spoken for the most part, she argues her points logically and often lists references and resources.

http://youtu.be/OSaT9utl4Ys

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #240 on: April 13, 2013, 11:31:09 pm
Well, what do you think of her on re: feminism? To me she sounds like a manipulator, caressing male (and men's rights activist) ego for popularity. She is a useful sock-puppet for many males troubled by what feminism asks of them (painful fundamental re-evaluation of their patriarchical worldview) to say 'oh, she makes sense, and she's a woman, feminism is evil *phew* one less thing I have to do first-hand  studying on now, youtube set me straight'.

I could rebutt point after point from that video, but what would that help you if you're looking on youtube to make up your mind on such a complicated issue as feminism? There's bibliography and academia for years if you want. But do you? Or will she do?

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #241 on: April 14, 2013, 12:39:32 am
If you're referring to an actual video by her titled " re:feminism" you'll have to link it to me, as I was unable to find it -- all her videos deal with feminism so searches don't help.

A rebuttal point for point would be helpful to me, because I am interested in the logic and " truth" of the matter. Now, of course they are the extremists, but why should I read up on works written by females who advocate male genocide, or by women who claim to be a part of the same group as those who do? It's like reading a book written by Hitler in attempts to better understand the plight of the german people.


Anita Sarkeesian's videos ( feminist frequency) is actually where I started after they were first put up in this thread, and I can completely see how tropes and other patterns in our culture have objectified women ( for the most part)**but girlwriteswhat ( and it was actually by watching Anita's videos that youtube recommended her to me, ironically) discusses what I find to be most detrimental to feminism which is the innate hypocritical air about it. For example, The fact that it is titled FEMinism yet claims, at least in the most beneficial strain, to be for gender equality. Why not just call it gender equality? Note the idea that women having been suppressed over time and needing to make up for that by overextension is not a valid reasoning. for the sake of the whole eye for an eye makes the whole world blind type deal.

** One thing I did find odd about Anita's videos, was the fact that she does not allow comments on her tropes vs. women in video games series; the hypocritical nature of this is expounded upon by amazingathiest in a very civil nature ( and was retaliated by in a very aggressive fashion by feminists).

Girlwriteswhat's video " swordfighting the fart" talks about some of this hypocrisy:
http://youtu.be/Q7tFV2Y6Hxk

Note I don't completely agree with some of her points here, or at least I believe they are exaggerated for effect. The analogy of a scantily clad woman being a form of sexual harassment towards men in particular ( although I see the thought process).

Take this last bit with a grain of salt,and anything that sounds offensive is only written for effect: but I find it a bit humorous that you describe her as a manipulator, caressing ( nurturing) and as a sock-puppet for males. That seems to be some pretty high level stereotyping and objectification for someone who claims to be on the side of feminism. The video is 29 minutes long and it only took you 11 minutes to reply which means you did not listen to her entire argument. It's completely ok for you to dismiss it, ( I've dismissed a lot of stuff posted in this thread) but could you perhaps accept that there may be some close-mindedness on both sides? Now of course you may already have seen the video in it's entirety and be familiar with her others, but I don't think that dismisses the idea of there being close-mindedness towards her stance.

edit: how do I grammar sometimes?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 12:53:01 am by Ryumaru »

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #242 on: April 14, 2013, 06:58:53 am
I was just saying what do you think on her on the subject of feminism, not a different video. That one you linked was mooore than enough.

Feminism isn't 'one thing'. It has three waves and in its current third wave there are very many permutations. Not all feminists agree with each other on everything, and some do not even start from the same fundamental assumptions. There is no point to hold your hand through the differences now because they will not stick in your brain. What will stick is that 'Helm is pro-feminist'. Not what feminism is and what the differences of first and second and third wave are or what the most prominent writers on the subject advocate.

There are extremists in every political and ideological camp. I have never met a single feminist (and I've met many) in my life that advocated the neutering of males or any other population control. That cartoonish example chosen by your videoblogger is useful to her as a straw-man and it has worked for you splendidly. You say why should I waste my time on that extremist feminist who said we should depopulate the earth from men (you shouldn't) or by women who claim to be a part of the same group as those who do?.

What you've just done is discredit the whole women's right movement because you were presented with a crazy example. Good job.

What were the connections drawn between the crazy example and mainstream feminism (of which there are several sub-strands, mind you).

1. What she's advocating (population control) has been suggested by highly-noted mainstream feminists.

And I ask you here, Ryumaru, did you seek relevant quotes and context for her claims? Nope.

2. Since most feminists agree with the patriarchical social model (that is true, by the way) and since that model has been perpetuated by society for so long then it follows that it is in men's *nature* to be vengeful, violent, hateful and misogynistic and rapey.

This doesn't follow. She conviniently absolves the power structure of our society (that is feudalism, captialism, socialism, any underlying system itself), initself an organism for perpetuating the patriarchical model by pretending it doesn't exist and there is a group of men that structure patriarchy in some dark room, twirling mustaches.

No feminist I've known believes this.

Simple rebuttal, in human history there are known examples of matriarchical societies. If it is in man's nature to be all these awful things, how did they ever come to pass?

The patriarchy is not genetic. In fact, genetic arguments are often thrown about by the other side, by men that think men are given to raping and destruction so 'what can you do?'. The whole of gender studies rests on the possibility that much of what we consider biological predetermination might in fact not be that, but cultural programming. It seeks to examine this programming and find ways to disrupt it.

This videoblogger is playing her audience for a fool. Due to maliciousness (I think so) or incomplete knowledge (the political intersectionality of feminism seems to completely escape her).

But now that I've done this, do you know anything more about feminism itself? Did you read any Judith Butler? Or is the end knowledge that "Helm is pro-feminist"?

If I am right and this woman is full of shit, what will you do? Will you actually go and study something written by those weird feminists, or will you go to some other youtube channel for a better defense of sexism and male-dominated sociality?


Quote
The fact that it is titled FEMinism yet claims, at least in the most beneficial strain, to be for gender equality. Why not just call it gender equality?

You're falling for the oldest tricks in the book. There's practically FAQS answering this question, yet you didn't read any of them, you're just going by what you think feminism is, or more precisely what they've taught you through the media feminism is. Let's see, why do they call it FEMinism and not gender equality?


Quote
** One thing I did find odd about Anita's videos, was the fact that she does not allow comments on her tropes vs. women in video games series; the hypocritical nature of this is expounded upon by amazingathiest in a very civil nature ( and was retaliated by in a very aggressive fashion by feminists).

Getting rape and death threats every day for months will teach you to control your space in such a way. Nothing's stopping anyone who has an opinion on Anita's videos from making a reply on their own videos or blogs. And that's precisely what has happened. So this is a non-issue, and again, you're falling for the simplest stuff.


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and as a sock-puppet for males. That seems to be some pretty high level stereotyping and objectification for someone who claims to be on the side of feminism.

You don't understand what objectification is.

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The video is 29 minutes long and it only took you 11 minutes to reply which means you did not listen to her entire argument.

I'm very well aware of her and I've seen many of her videos over time.

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( I've dismissed a lot of stuff posted in this thread) but could you perhaps accept that there may be some close-mindedness on both sides?

Nope.

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Now of course you may already have seen the video in it's entirety and be familiar with her others, but I don't think that dismisses the idea of there being close-mindedness towards her stance.

I have and yep, nope. I understand her stance completely and it is misinformed either willfully or due to ignorance. And it's doing her job excellently. This is a very important juncture where you have to either follow her example or go and educate yourself. When -and I hope- you do, we can actually disagree on real things because feminism is not a monument. Right now we're disagreeing on shadows of things, on manipulations of lies and half-truths so you can comfortably discredit a whole movement.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 07:03:57 am by Helm »

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #243 on: April 14, 2013, 10:55:01 am
1. She mentioned Valerie Solanas and Robin Morgan. Valerie was obviously a nut who was unfortunately abused as a child ( I see evil being the problem here, and the men in her life only vehicles of it). You would have to tell me if Valerie is a " noted" feminist- undoubtedly she is a popular example and extremist. Upon brief search I did not find any full original texts by Robin Morgan that advocated anything in the way of male castration or genocide but I would assume girlwriteswhat had some text in mind when making that statement. Perhaps I will ask her.

2. I would hope no feminist believe in the twirling mustachers, obviously an exaggeration that is hinting at how patriarchy is often described as feminists as "behind the scenes" and of silent influence, often told to males who say they don't see it or believe it exists.

I should note here that I clearly see qualities of " the patriarchy" influencing society and culture. Girlwriteswhat talks about it as if it doesn't exist at all. I believe it's not as oppressive as some may make it out to be, but it's surely there.

It seems clear to me that she does not believe that man's nature is " vengeful, violent, hateful and misogynistic and rapey" She is linking it as an interpretation of patriarchy ( so by interpretating something she doesn't believe in, she does not see the interoperation to be the case, but only a logical path of thought.)

There are always exceptions to the rule, and the matriarchy examples you list I'm sure would be far outnumbered by patriarchal societies.

Claiming the patriarchy is not genetic and placing it purely on culture is a bold, and I believe, a false claim to make. Can you show me scientific studies that discredit the facts that higher levels of testosterone in men are linked with higher libido, increased muscle mass, and aggression? These ARE part of man's nature, certainly biological, and all are roots of behaviors such as rape and war.
If in fact it is found that testosterone has no effect on these behaviors I would wholeheartedly renounce my belief that much of what is seen as the patriarchy and gender inequality is based in biology, but for now, the links seem to obvious for me to ignore.

I have two problems with feminism. One is that of a myriad of practitioners based on my admittedly limited and anecdotal experience with females that claim to be feminist ( once you've heard enough stories or seen enough poor practitioners it tends to stick in your mind. Perhaps the extremists and nutcases are more vocal and their behaviors more likely to stick to my mind than more mild counterparts). Too often have I experienced women who claim to be feminists and seek gender equality but still expect the dogmatic chivalry of males, the special treatment, and favor in matters of incarceration, child custody, and drafting in times of war.

The other is that I believe equality is too hazy a concept to apply to the genders, especially when there are indeed differences between them. There is of course a line between treating someone differently, and treating someone equally. For example I believe some of the above has been created for a reason. Child custody favors females due to fact that they have more biological investment with the child than the father. Women are not part of the draft because they are considered special and who's life is of higher priority ( save the women and children!). This treatment is both different and unequal.


What is your stance on the matters above? If males and females were treated the exact same across the board, but then given the additional privileges above, obviously females would then be in the superior position. Which might be fine for some, but certainly would not be gender equality. But if not, there would probably be many females that feel their specific needs are not being met. If you try to give females those privileges and attempt to balance out the genders on a topic specific
basis, you're then just asking for convoluted trouble.

If feminism is not actively fighting for men's rights then they are not practicing gender equality completely. I am fine with feminism claiming to be for the equality of gender by focusing on and bringing up suppressed females, but it should always be stated as such, and it should be made clear that feminism is favoring the female in that manner.

You would have to debunk a lot more than 2 points, of which it seemed there was some misinterpretation or oversimplification on your part for me to believe she's " full of shit". I came to Anita's videos with as open a mind as I could, and like I said they led me girlwriteswhat who gave a stance on the matter that has a followable train of thought, with points seem equally as likely, if not more likely in some cases to the analogous counters in feminism.

It seems at the very least, we do disagree on one thing that is very real, and that is the nature of patriarchy, and male behavior being connected to biology or culture. I am of the thought that testosterone is undoubtedly linked to violence, aggression, and sex drive, and that these connections extend themselves into how males behave towards women and that this in turn is what culture, and patriarchy is molded upon. It seems that you are of firm belief that it is purely cultural and so either of our attempts to say otherwise will probably fall upon deaf ears.

While on the surface it may seem that I am unchanged and discrediting the movement of feminism, I will say that really is not the case. Your replies and other posts in this thread have gotten many gears stirring in my head. So much so that I've spent well over an hour writing all of this. Not much has changed in my opinion of the matter, but the wiring behind it has become much more complicated. Feminism is something I would have to dedicate a large chunk of time too to give it full justice, and as it stands I have too many things on my personal agenda of higher priority for me to read all the text that I would need to. I thank you for the time you have given me and your attempt to entertain my replies as best you can.

tldr: I don't think girlwriteswhat is completely full of shit. I think testosterone is very much linked to male behaviors that would create a patriarchy, making it's source at least partially biological. I've spent enough time as it is on this thread and while it has it's benefits, the returns are diminishing and there is little point in further discussion on my part so I thank you for your time that you have given me and will promptly immerse myself in painting which is where I ought to be.

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #244 on: April 14, 2013, 12:15:44 pm
(as a side note, I do advocate preventative measures for population control - mainly, encouraging people to plan their families and trying to make it so families in poorer countries don't have to have a ton of children.
Basically two children aren't going to increase the population because they replace their parents, and since there are people who die without having a child, the population will decrease slightly.
I can't imagine anyone who seriously advocates neutering males, as it doesn't do anything. Like a certain silly poem said, "the rest of them just have a better time".)

Edit: I was going to mention something about neutering females being similarly cruel and unneeded, but oops they have done exactly that in some african countries if I remember right.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 12:33:00 pm by Ymedron »
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