AuthorTopic: GR#195 - Project Entropy - Gameart, Conceptart  (Read 53283 times)

Offline Chris2balls

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #50 on: April 24, 2012, 10:49:00 am
I think the head and arms lack anticipation/movement.
I made a quick sketch of what I mean, I hope it helps:

You could make him twitch before he hits, to give an idea of strength.
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Offline Facet

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #51 on: April 24, 2012, 08:50:07 pm
Quote
I think I need to go the sketchbook for a bit and plan out how the boss battle will go exactly to ensure the animations are compatible.
Definitely. I can see how much work you've invested in the current animation set-up and possibly the discrepency would go unoticed, at a push it could be ret-con'd character-specifically as distortions of space and time :P, but under scrutiny; his fists are the size of his shins and how does he touch his toes without exposing his back?

If you plan on going the raised platform route consider that given the standard player sprite, the height of the platform ultimately determines the scale of the boss; the player appears knee-high at ground level or ankle-high raised to around chest height. Also assuming a raised platform; a bit of method drawing (pretending to crush my mug of tea) would suggest that midget-squashing via the heel of the hand (exposing the front of the knuckles) is more natural and satisfying :hehe:

I guess it's already clear what I'm talking about but for the sake of clarity, a diagram (with most recent fists). Love CRB's anticipation thing too.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #52 on: April 24, 2012, 09:56:23 pm
Chris2balls: Ah yes, he could go for some anticipation, couldn't he? Will do, Thanks!

Facet:

Perhaps we are merely seeing things differently? The entire description of his attack was to say that he's basically hitting air. Creating some sort of chasm in a directional path from the impact ( in this case, vertical). This is what will harm the player. Originally, yes, I hadn't given any thought to the perspective and it was implied by the smash that his arms were going all the way, or nearly all the way down which is shown in your edit. But I propose in this new movement that his arms  start straight up, or even back a bit, and merely move to below his chest. Does the fact that his fists are nearly tangent with the bottom of his feet make them appear to be on the same plane? I may be able to fix that up a bit.

Heres an example of what I'm talking about, apparently drawn when I was 4:



I believe this rationalization will be better as A) you can only spend so much time on one boss animation, and while this has led to me learning a lot about animation already, I do believe I need to move on sometime since I do actually want this made. B ) I believe if I were to go with the full range of movement that your edit offers, the necessary reduction of size, and decrease of light on the fists would take them away from being a focal point- when they are more or less the " creation" of the force that does damage, and I think that works better in terms of practical gameplay reasonings and C) he's a supermassive black hole spider monster and doesn't have to obey silly things like perspective. :crazy:

Offline Facet

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #53 on: April 24, 2012, 11:10:40 pm
Ah man, I don't want to burden you with even more work than you've challenged yourself with ;). I'm just trying to understand something that confused me and might similarly affect players. Avoiding large-scale animations in perspective, in the context of a game with many animations sounds like a great idea to me but I couldn't help but think that's what you were attempting. I can't speak for everyone else that commented but I find the current anim. very hard to read as a gesture conjuring something from the air. The knuckles & particle effects seem to connect with a surface parallel to the feet and the animation seems purposefully designed (all that recoil) to describe that same collision. You said “this is just supposed to be a simple smash” ie. a physical attack, hitting the player, so I was pretty sure I had it right?

If you made the collision a clap so as not to appear as if connecting with the ground and toned down the bounce I think it would avoid massive undue revision and read much better as per that remarkably prescient 4 year-old's description ;D.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 11:14:02 pm by Facet »

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #54 on: April 25, 2012, 12:24:39 am
You did have it right, but I decided to re-rationalize what the attack was ( from a physical smash to a less physical attack) half way through to make things easier on me. I understand your confusion and wouldn't want an animation to take the player out of the game experience. Before I had read your post I came up with this:



Where I was trying to put in a bit of anticipation. I think I will put his hands into more of a "slicing" position and perhaps that will read more as a gesture to distort than the fists do. I'll be sure the player has as difficult of a time defeating this boss as I have animating him!

Offline Tuna Unleashed

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #55 on: April 25, 2012, 04:57:47 am
the wobble seems to do more for making him look like he's made of jello than adding impact :p also, for his little arms, i would make the flick at the end more of a fluid, gradual thing rather than a quick unnatural looking snap.

Offline PixelPiledriver

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #56 on: April 25, 2012, 08:08:58 am
It's looking much better.
Great progression.
The new key helps a lot.

The animation you have is very physical, and fun.
I would suggest you keep it as primarily a slam attack, as if he is making contact with a surface.
You could still have stuff pop up or a wave shoot out or something.
But If the player gets under his fists they should definitely take physical damage.

If you're going to make him shoot special stuff I would say make it completely different than the slam:


From a gameplay perspective it will allow the player to pick up instantaneous visual cues about whats going on.
This will allow them to react more quickly.
Sound and color is also a good way to alert the player of a specific action.

Then throw in a move that tricks people.
"Oh hes gonna sma..... oh no! he did the other thing!"

I just realized that I didn't even explain the bounce in terms of animation theory.
This is whats called "Resolve".
It can take on many forms and is used in general to dissipate energy.
In this case we are trying to "resolve" a fast motion and an impact.
Effectively we are trying to show weight.

To simplify, basically weight bends stuff at joints or "pivot points".

Try doing this attack in front of a mirror.
But hit a pillow or something so you don't hurt yourself.
This is known as "Acting for animation".

The most resolve will come from your upper body, head, and shoulders.
They will bounce a lot as you naturally stabilize your weight.
The primary pivots will be your fists.
They will not move much.
The Secondary pivots will be your elbows.
They will bend some but will also act as a pivot to your upper body.
Something like this:


The main reason why he appears "jelloish" is because you are implying a pivot by stretching from here:


Where as a more natural pivot is the elbows (and/or hands):


Where you place a pivot isn't really right or wrong.
It doesn't matter so much if there should be one there or not.
Depending on the character and the action unrealistic pivot points can work really well.

Also keep in mind that no matter what you see in the mirror, you will want to exaggerate.

There a bunch of different ways to use resolve.
This bouncing type of resolve about fixed pivots implies that he is making contact with a surface and stabilizing his weight.
If he were not hitting something, or something very light, you would still use resolve but in a different way.

Take for example a golf club.
Hitting the ground and hitting a golf ball.
In both there is anticipation.
In both there is action.
In both there is impact.
In both energy dissipates.
In both weight stabilizes.
In both there is resolve.
But they feel and look different.

I completely glazed over this topic last time, so sorry for that.

Another cool trick I've used here is the "Shrink Frame".
Just before he shoots I shrink down his upper body.
Then on the next frame I make it larger:


You can use this trick in lots of situations.
When you find a good spot for a shrink, try sizing it down more than you would think possible.
It's often surprising how exaggerated this can be and still work really well.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 09:51:13 am by PixelPiledriver »
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #57 on: April 27, 2012, 07:37:46 am
Pixelpiledriver: I can't thank you enough for your continued help! My animation skill level has nearly doubled just from two posts of yours. Pixelation is too lucky to have some new blood like you ( and Facet, too) that are actively giving strong in depth critique like this. I like the special shooting animation you made, currently I suck at effect animations, and I have even less patience for them than movement animation.

I enjoyed your explanation of resolve, and afterwards started looking up samurai swords in slow motion for reference as the slicing movement is what I'm after. I've updated the animation a little bit and I will show once I'm done. I've changed his fists into the more " slicey" gesture and I'm working on the resolve part of the animation now.

I also have a very, very dirty mockup of what I want this attack to do. The reason I don't want cliffs and pounding like in Facet's edit is that I'm envisioning platforms slowly being sucked into the area and getting caught up and dissolved into his super gravity areas- the vertical chasm of which is what this attack is about. Don't mind the colors; they're just me fucking around:

Offline Mike

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #58 on: April 27, 2012, 08:02:37 am
PPD are the particle effects by hand?  Are you using an automated process?  Like Pro-motion anim paint?  The world wants to know!

Offline PixelPiledriver

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Re: Project Entropy

Reply #59 on: April 27, 2012, 09:31:38 am
Quote
My animation skill level has nearly doubled just from two posts of yours.
Great!
I'm attempting to be as clear and general as possible.
Honestly my posts could use twice as many diagrams but I don't have time for that right now.
Glad its helping.

Quote
currently I suck at effect animations, and I have even less patience for them than movement animation.
FX can be tough.
It's very different than character work.
Just play around and try stuff.
Of course there's a bunch of good theory that makes sense of it.
When I get some time I can talk about fx too if you're interested.
Might be a while tho.

Quote
PPD are the particle effects by hand?
Yup.
That's why they're so messy!
I really enjoy drawing particles directly into an animation.
It's not the most flexible way of doing things but its fun.
Sometimes I rip them out and put them in their own sprite, so they can be faded and scaled and stuff.
But sometimes its cool to just leave them burned in because its simple and rough.

Quote
Are you using an automated process?
No.
But I also do game/graphics programming.
I was the particle fx coder on my team for the last couple games.
I've done a bunch more in the past just for fun.
I'm familiar with how to do something like this with numbers as well.

Quote
Like Pro-motion anim paint?
I use graphics gale.
I assume what you mean is some sort of tween feature?
Like Flash style?
Never used Pro-motion.
Tweens can be good to get things started.
Sort of fill out how much time and space you want to take up quickly.
Then break them into keys and edit by hand.
They're also really good for color transformations.
And for really slow motions that just have gobs of frames, like 100+ where not much really happens.
The spheres on my blog are a good example of that.
But most of the time I don't use them.
I find it easier to just dive in and make a mess.

Also I realized that I mention the "Shrink Frame".
But I don't say what it does.
In summary, it creates an extreme moment of "change".
But I don't have time to detail that topic thoroughly right now.
So It'll have to wait.
Just keep in mind that a balanced amount of "change" in animation is a good thing.

Cool mockup!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 10:10:38 am by PixelPiledriver »
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1