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Messages - Kasumi
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261
Pixel Art / Re: 8-bits level wip 1
« on: April 09, 2010, 07:27:31 pm »
for the sprite, there a certain limit that i can use ? i know that i should use a 8x16 and 8x8 only. so, how can i redo them without losting the detail ?

Yes. You can have 64 on screen at once. And you can only use sixty-four 8x8 sprites, or sixty-four 8x16 sprites. My quick and dirty (read: probably incorrect count) means your big dinosaur on the left is twenty-four 8x8 sprites. I assume the one on the right uses less, so you're good for now, but you still couldn't have much else on screen. I didn't check how many 8 x 16 sprites it would have been, because 8x16 sprites are fickle, and end  up using space normally reserved for your background tiles. If you want a sprite that's shorter than 8x16 (for a bullet or something) and you're using that mode, you have to leave a tile blank in your background tiles. Not many games used that mode.


Another problem is you can only have 8 sprites in the same horizontal line. Any more and the NES simply won't display them unless you manually flicker them. Your game would be pretty flicker heavy with such wide sprites. But there's at least one official Ninja Turtle Fighting Game that uses larger sprites than yours and flickers constantly. It's not... THAT bad.

Quote
i knew it, i took extra attention on the number of color, i should use 3 color per 8x8 tiles.
Actually it's 3 colors for sprites. You get FOUR colors per 8x8 tile for backgrounds, but one of the four colors must be the same in all your background palettes. If the trees were the same color as the grass, I think I could make it work on NES without the HUD in two palettes, and with it in three, or four (but... you only have four so most other things in the level would have to use these colors without tricky level design) depending on if the dinosaur head and number are sprites or part of the background. With the trees as they are now, I can't immediately think of a way to make it work on a real NES, but that doesn't mean it's not possible, or that you should change it. You're doing fine for just the aesthetic.

262
General Discussion / Re: Official Off-Topic Thread
« on: April 05, 2010, 07:15:17 pm »
All I could think of is that's Julius from Everybody hates Chris.

263
Commercial Critique / Re: Commercial Critique - Shatterhand
« on: March 26, 2010, 03:17:53 pm »
Kasumi thank you very much for the informative technical post :)
You're welcome.

Since I finally got around to really playing this, I've got one more.

This game has a "parallax scrolling" thing too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN6r2MPdNmw

It's fine for a beat'em up like Battletoads because those games progress horizontally, without a lot of vertical scrolling.
I don't think it works on this style of game, though, because it prohibits the part of the level you can interact with from being any higher than the highest point of the level with a "normal" scroll. Vertical scrolling with it is also pretty out of the question without headaches, so they opted out.
Also interesting to me, is how this game really likes (liked?) to avoid scrolling horizontally and vertically at the same time. I almost get the feeling they didn't have a way to do it when they started the game, and only added areas like this when they updated the engine.

Play the first level again. It seems pretty carefully designed so that it's never possible to scroll in both directions. You go horizontally. You reach a vertical drop. You can't go back to the horizontal area once you drop down. When you get the end of the drop to scroll horizontally again, you can't scroll back up. Without being really techinical, scrolling in two directions at once is difficult on NES because it doesn't have an offscreen buffer to draw tiles to in each direction. On the chance if it has to scroll both in the same frame it becomes a real problem. Metroid switched the type of scrolling every time you went through a door. (That's why the map is horizontal rooms next to vertical hubs) Megaman switched it when needed. Kirby's Adventure tried scrolling both ways during the level select hubs, but never during an actual level (that I know of). But that's likely getting off topic. I think I'll try the challenge, since I need the practice for my own game. I talk a big talk, but I'm really not so great at (NES) tiling.  :crazy:

Several C64 games supply parallax scrolling beyond scanlines (Creatures, Mayhem in Monsterland, Turrican).

Basically, as the background is made up from the character set, which have custom "font", this can be done by having several characters with "scrolled" versions of the same character (if there's enough free characters), or, the other option is to edit the character set data during the game.

A prime example of the latter is Barbarian, whilst not used for parallax scrolling, the characters are "drawn" into the background using this method. I'm not sure why they didn't use hardware sprites for Barbarian, but still plays well

You can mess with the characterset on NES as well, if you use CHR RAM, instead of CHR ROM. (which Shatterhand uses). I'm always amazed by the tricks these games used to get what they could from bad specs.

264
Commercial Critique / Re: Commercial Critique - Shatterhand
« on: March 21, 2010, 01:36:17 pm »
I hope a more technical post will be appreciated. If not, I'll head back into lurk mode. The NES stuff always pulls me out.  :-X I also apologize if I compared to other games too much, but I thought it might help understanding.

Just a few corrections here to start:

The cart (probably Konami-designed) has modifications to increase memory size to fit in more sprite and tile data. Effectively this means that this game couldn't have come out as an NES launch title or anything of the type. Keep this in mind if you think 'huh the NES came a long way since super mario and other simple looking arcade ports to this'. The artists came a long way but also, the cart configurations changed. I'm sure we have some actual NES cartridge wizards in the forum that could more assuredly talk about their specs.

Well, I can try. Shatterhand is an MMC3 game. MMC3 and the other MMC series were Nintendo developed as far as I know. This means Shatterhand doesn't have any more of a complicated cart than 1988's Super Mario Bros. 3, and in fact uses less space for code/data/levels, probably to save money since ROM was expensive. (Both games use 128 KB for graphics, but SMB3 uses 256 KB for code/data where Shatterhand only uses 128KB for that. But... I suppose that's not useful info for this discussion) Therefore you can chalk a lot of Shatterhand's graphical victories to its artists, rather than its cart.

It's all about color usage and tile busyness I think. It takes a page from the Batman game, the black color is the universal color here that ties almost every tile together and frees up the other two colors per tile to be whatever else since black can dither into anything for an extra darker shade and unifies.

Three. If black is the universal color in all background tiles, then each tile palette still has three other colors to choose from. There are four background palettes that have: black, and three other colors. It's sprites that only get three colors since the universal color used for all sprite palettes just becomes transparent instead when the sprite is drawn.

Don't be afraid of complicated tile configurations either, you have (imaginary) cartridge space.

In fact, this game could have used twice as much space as it did for tile/sprite data. It just would have been more expensive to produce.

On the whole "parallax scroll debate"

The splitscreen parallax:

I assume they scroll the screen during scanline interrupts?

Is it possible to scroll one part to the left, the other to the right?

Sprites are always layered afterwards?

Yes!

Yes! See Megaman 3 (another MMC3 game.) Press start on the title screen and watch the top and bottom parts of the screen scroll in from the left, and the middle scroll in from the right to make up the robot master select screen.

Not necessarily. ptoing went over the basics of that.

The best "parallax scrolling" I've seen is in Battletoads. (Note: Battletoads is NOT MMC3 but...) One of the features MMC3 adds is a scanline counter. This allows different vertical portions of the screen to have different horizontal scroll values. (Split screen scrolling as described in Megaman 3 above) On the title screen of Shatterhand don't press start. Eventually you'll see an enemy shooting, and a guy will pan in from the right blocking the bullets with his arm. That's an example of this. It's not exactly as wonderful as parallax scrolling with different background layers though.

But actually split screen scrolling can be used in carts with no special configuration. See Super Mario Bros. where the level scrolls but the HUD (score, world etc) doesn't. MMC3 just made that kinda thing MUCH easier since you didn't have to wait in idle loops to change the scroll value mid screen. You could rely on an interrupts. I can't even guarentee at this point if that scene is done the MMC3 way or the SMB way without looking at how it's running through a debugger, but "easy" split screen is a fun feature of MMC3.

I might make a more detailed post regarding what this game does with its graphics codewise during gameplay, as well.

Edit: Or not. A quick run through shows it barely does anything neat. Doh. Ptoing covered that.

265
Pixel Art / Re: Some time to think...
« on: March 12, 2010, 11:21:48 am »
My first thought viewing it was that the chair was the person's hair. Now, even knowing that it's a chair, I'm having trouble seeing it as separate from the character. Perhaps some more contrast?

266
It does work now. Excellent!

267
Pixel Art / Re: [WIP] 16x16 NES Portraits
« on: October 10, 2009, 04:07:56 am »
Your palette choices are very good. I use Black, $07, $36 (close to $37) for sprites, for its re-usability. I looked through the other purple colors in yy-chr's palette to try to find a good solution to Gil's critique, but I wasn't able to do any better.

My only real critique for now is about the purple glasses guy on the second row. A quick edit:



I thought the way his glasses moved up was strange, so I straightened it. This change also changed the shape of his nose though. I then changed the hair to match the new glasses, and rounded up his mouth. I added another beige pixel by his ear since all the light purple pixels by his ear looked awkward to me. Take all this with a grain of salt though. I'm still pretty new to this.

These DO fit NES restrictions. At least each individual portrait does. They couldn't all be displayed on the screen as background tiles at once, though. While it's true that one color must be shared between all background palettes, that one color can be changed every frame if needed. One color that's shared between one set of palettes is black. (Used for the orange-red-beige palette, the dark blue-blue-beige palette and the lime green, green, beige palette) So all the portraits that use these palettes can be displayed on screen at the same time as background tiles, with none of the others. And the color that's shared between his other palette set is offwhite. (Used for the dark purple-purple-beige palette, and the black-brown-pink palette) Likewise portraits that use this set can all be displayed on screen at once as background tiles, with none of the others. (Though this is only my guess as how he laid out his shared colors. It might be another setup)

(I may have guessed his black and white palette numbers wrong)

As for 5bit RGB, I'm pretty sure that's a Game Boy Color thing. NES has only 64 colors, each assigned a number in hex. I don't think their RGB values are stored which is why there are so many varying NES palettes out there.

Edit: Forgot to say I look forward to the rest of them, I really enjoy the Link looking one in the first row. Also the fourth sprite in the first row. (The brown one with the hat)

268
General Discussion / Re: Read the Rules, then introduce yourself here.
« on: September 27, 2009, 02:24:55 am »
I'm Kasumi. I joined, even though I mostly intend to lurk. My primary pixel art interest is making sprites and backgrounds that can be used in NES games, since I make NES games as a hobby. One of my long term goals is making at least one game for most of the famous older consoles (NES, Game Boy, SNES, Genesis, etc. Nothing planned for Atari, and the like. Maybe sometime.), though I'm focused on NES right now.

I've made a small PSP game, but the spritework is very basic, and uses few colors. My avatar (provided it's still a girl in a blue shirt with a bleeding person next to her) is from the PSP game, which yes is heavily inspired by EarthBound. Though everything in it is original sprites and not edits. The sprites in it have eight directions and three frame walking animations. I'm not very good at detailed pixeling, but I think I work well enough under NES color restrictions. I joined as a programmer expecting to be wowed by everyone else's stuff, but I may post some things for critique as well. I draw and paint as well and when I want to create a piece of standalone art, I usually pick those up. Therefore most of my pixeling ventures will be made with a specific game in mind. I am deeply impressed by everything here, and will definitely stick around, if only just to look. My favorite kind of pixel art is sprites.

269
Pixel Art / Re: [WIP]the robot with sunglasses mockup
« on: September 26, 2009, 02:58:40 am »
For the record, it's even possible to have tiles look like they have more colors by overlapping sprites but that's not practical because of the 8 sprite per scanline limit, and the 64 sprite limit. Also of note is that you can write different colors to the first entry of of the palettes which use the universal color from the first palette, but it doesn't affect how anything is displayed. The PPU doesn't even read them.

Question from the dimwit - what are scanlines and what purpose do they serve regarding palette/sprite limits?

A scanline (for this purpose) is a row of pixels across the screen. (ptoing beat me to it, but I'll go more in depth) NES' PPU (picture processing unit) will only render 64 "sprite pixels" in any one row. (A transparent pixel of a sprite still counts.) Since each hardware sprite is 8 pixels across, you can have 8 sprites in a row (In other words, they Y values are all the same), but if you add a ninth sprite with the same y value, it will not be drawn to the screen at all. If you moved the ninth sprite 4 pixels down below where the others are, however, the bottom four pixels of that sprite will be drawn. (since the bottom of the ninth sprite is below the eight scanlines that the first eight sprites are occupying. It's an important distinction. It's divided into rows of 256 x 1, not rows of 256 x 8 [For NES]) This is where "sprite flickering" comes into play. You may have noticed in NES games with lots of sprites on screen at once, parts of enemies or whole enemies will start to disappear and reappear. This is flickering and contrary to popular belief this is not done automatically. They do this because having enemies "flicker" is certainly a better option than having the possibility of them not appearing at ALL! (since an enemy not rendered to the screen could still hurt you.)

Edit: And to more fully answer your question, the scanline limit doesn't directly affect your use of sprites, nor your palettes. It only makes the possibility that some sprites won't appear on screen. The issue is that if (like Megaman or my 12 color example) you use multiple overlapping sprites to get more colors, you cannot have as many enemies standing on the same horizontal plane as your character without immense flicker.

For instance, say your character is 16 x 16 pixels and you use all 12 colors on him for an extreme example. That means you're
A: already using ALL eight sprites in every scanline the hero occupies and
B: Using 16 of your 64 sprites JUST for the hero character. The other issue is that the palettes you chose for the hero better be reusable for the enemies, since they have to be reused for them. All the spaces are gone.

Any other questions, please PM me. I didn't intend to start this discussion in this guy's topic, only clarify.

270
Pixel Art / Re: [WIP]the robot with sunglasses mockup
« on: September 26, 2009, 02:20:49 am »
I'd like to point out that your art is not in NES restrictions. You can have 3 colors maximum (+transparency) for sprites

Not entirely true. It's still possible for a NES game. If you overlap two hardware sprites with different palettes using the transparency you can get five (or six) colors on one (not hardware) sprite. You can technically have one (not hardware) sprite use 12 different colors by overlapping four hardware sprites using all three colors from all of the available palettes. But that's not practical because of the 64 sprite limit.

Megaman overlaps hardware sprites with two different palettes which is how he is five colors. (black, white, skin, two shades of blue) Sprites that make up his face use black white, and the skin tone. The face sprites are overlapped over his suit sprites which use black, and two shades of blue. The result is more than three sprite colors in an 8 x 8 pixel area.

and 4 colors for tiles. You have used 5 colors for sprites and tiles.

His tiles are completely fine, since they are only 4 colors. (black and three shades of brown/tan) The background doesn't always use one of the four palette entries for transparency like the sprite palettes, so the first color in each palette can actually be displayed as a color. However... this first color is always the same in all four palettes so you each 16 x 16 (rather than 8 x 8 unless you use a special mapper) pixel area can display the set of three colors from any of the four background palettes, plus the one universal color.  (Which would most likely be black in this case.)

For the record, it's even possible to have tiles look like they have more colors by overlapping sprites but that's not practical because of the 8 sprite per scanline limit, and the 64 sprite limit. Also of note is that you can write different colors to the first entry of of the palettes which use the universal color from the first palette, but it doesn't affect how anything is displayed. The PPU doesn't even read them.

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