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Messages - The B.O.B.
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hmm actually i think i preferred it when u wrote single line posts but hey ho.

at no point am i saying that critiques are at all bad, indeed when i taught graphics they were mandatory. but critiques must be based on practical advice tailored to the individual piece, not sweeping generalisations or rules to follow. and crits couched in pretentious sounding "techie" or "arty" sounding terminology are of very little help to anyone who hasnt frequented YOUR scene before. (i know this because when i first came here i couldnt understand what alot of your "arty technobabble" was about)

that being said, tutes on AA or general anatomy are always useful to be pointed at. however as a "generalisation" on here i would say that 80%+ of all crits on here should really start with "GO AND FIND REAL LIFE REFS" as the amount of time newbys on here have just tried to make up the subjects pose, detail etc is just exasperating.

there is absolutely no excuse these days for not google image searching for the elements u are trying to recreate.

maybe there should be a general tute/sticky on finding real refs on the net?

lastly, as real life events have just made clear to me, don't get wrapped up in your own little world of art and take it seriously. art isnt serious really, u just think it is at the moment. it doesnt save lives, it should really be fun and enjoyable.

i think THAT perspective only comes with age tho. when u realise just what DOES matter.


   Ermm, we do provide help with real life references, and anatomy. Have you ever actually searched throughout the site, before making this blind assertion? We even have a go-to thread with people posting pics needing help with anatomy, with some online referenced pics for anatomy as well.(Anatomy thread)

   If that's not enough for you, would you rather we just advertise Google image search for online references, somewhere on the site? Would that satisfy you?

   Also, if you look at just more than a couple of wip threads, you WILL see that when we notice a portrait pic(of some sort) is done a by a beginner, even in pixel art, one of the first things coming out of our mouths is to go back and try to get the basics down of traditional art before moving forward, as it's current limits are showing in the piece in question. Here's one I found in about, oh I don't know, 2 min, right at the top of the wip section!:

[WIP]-Female Anatomy[nudity]

There's even a page dedicated for non-pixel art type drawings, where most comments are with anatomy and real life references as well:


   Also, who says art is all business, and no play? Is this how you see things when dealing with art? I hope not. It's always been fun for me, and helps clear my mind from time to time, getting lost in drawing something. Maybe it is your age, playing a trick on you. I'm guessing you've been a graphic designer for a couple of years, and you've seen it deteriorate to petty advertisement, with push on media quantity, rather than quality. And with this mindset, you've projected it unto a digital art site, such as this.(just a guess, though I'm probably way off base here.) This little theory is not justified by any length on my own accord, but it's placement in this response, is. And it's reasoning is simple: from the outside looking in, it's easy to judge, especially when you don't want to give the inside a chance.

   Holy crap! While watching the thread in the background, I remember reading the first "TheOne" post, and thinking "*sigh*...I'm guessing this is Sharprm in sheep's clothing"...who else would jump on the chance at another silly debate of defining pixel art. Didn't want to say anything, but sad to see that I was right. Great artist, with an unfortunate bad attitude.
   More on topic, though: I thought the subject of this topic was: " How did the old masters create their pixel artwork (e.g. Simon the Sorcerer)?  "? This was answered in the first couple of posts, yet the topic has been derailed completely by something so silly.
   Did something happen here? Why is it when so innocent a topic is brought up with the generic sense "of how it's done", some person with built in rage has to come in, twist and turn it to his own personal agenda of " I'm gonna' show these young whippersnappers how we used to do things in the olds days!1!"
   It seems to me that the other side of the argument isn't understanding something that's very clear to the majority; This is a website with it's own personal opinion on something. ie, this is what Pixelation would LIKE pixel art to be, though it's not the definitive of the art form. It's the sites opinion on it, just like any other site, and by members joining, they are also showing a willingness to be compatible along with it. Baseball is a form of a sport. Players don't join baseball, and expect them to start allowing on field tackling, and gladiator bat-battles at each base. It's a sport with understood rules. You play by the rules, or get out. So easy a concept to understand, and it simply boggles my mind, when people come into something with set rules, and decide that they're rules are better.
   By arguing with the users here about that subject, you're only raising it higher in your own psyche(and possibly even others), that this site's opinion on pixel art is the definitive. Which it ISN'T. Again, it's just what we'd like it to be(which I agree with, and feel it's EXTREMELY helpful in shaping good pixel artists...the number of pixel artists who used these ideals have gone on to make games professionally, with QUALITY work.)These type of arguments go no where, because no one person has the high ground, or the final word on such a silly subject. There are gray areas between all forms of art, yet you feel the need to justify your claim with " Nuh uh, it's graphic art and fine art...critiquing on a new formulated opinion is totally pretentious. We do things the fun way, not the boring way. That's the way we used to roll, and how it should be!!1!". That's too silly to even take seriously. Sounds to me like you're unwilling to change your ideals of art, which I guess is fine, as it's your opinion. This can be respected, I suppose.
   But when nips turn into biting, this starts turning into a case of "trolling." The topic question was answered, but the need to keep pestering on with something so dumb, is beyond me. I just hope that the "protesters" of the means of pixel art, can understand this one day. And if you feel so strongly about the way things are handled, why not just make another site with it's own set of ideals on pixel art? You obviously feel you have something to prove here, so why not just take it a step further, and see if it develops into something worthwhile, rather than starting something troll-like, and trying to stop the rest of us in ENJOYING what we do.

General Discussion / Re: Official Off-Topic Thread
« on: February 11, 2010, 06:37:49 pm »
   I'm not sure if I'm just that forgetful, but sometimes I feel like when I dream it's about a 5 min. black out, and I wake up the next day to continue with the mundane life I live. And if I do dream, I've noticed how the general theme of my dream is constantly changing. I always found this strange, and wondered why the brain does this.
   When I'm in my supposed conscious state, I'm getting full control over my actions, and have somewhat control over things around me; but in dream state, I'm just a part of a larger state of chaos. The story has no plot, and my actions don't have mirrored reality reactions. I wonder why this is? I would think that given enough time, a person's brain would develop to understand rules, and implement them into our brain as a strong function of society and survival. Yet, my brain betrays me in the state of dream realm, breaking every real world rule: Electricity is a fallacy in dreamworld, Being chased by people who want to murder you(with possible good reason to do so), and when they catch you, they serve you food and tell you about their dreams or past lives(like a bad movie with no consistent plot), things come back from the dead, food, drinks, fighting, falling, all point to a feeling or anxiety, rather than physical consequence(at least in my personal experience). And in dreams, I've noticed that there's perfect timing in a "nightmare", where one is on the brink of death and they wake up in a cold sweat. Is a brain within a conscious state of itself, having fun with it's puppet?
   Why would a brain do this, though? What is it's general reason for this? I've heard or read some things that dreams are just the result of day to day actions, and monotony, built into a simple "movie' sequence, possibly designed for the brain to "save" it into it's "hardrive". Sounds a bit reasonable. But that's what it's doing. It's function. I'm just wanting to know why it does this.
   Despite the conscious state of knowing certain things, when in sleep state, the brain tends to revert back to complete fantasy, if not controlled with the likes of Lucid dreaming. When dogs sleep, they certainly  look like they're dreaming, when they begin to run their paws in the air, bark lightly to themselves, or suckling, as if they're remembering when they were pups. So it seems humans aren't the only ones that dream. Looks as if 2 different species can share other "outworldly" states. And if we're a product of evolution, how big a part would dreaming come into play into developing a species further down the evolutionary ladder? How far back does it go, until there are creatures that possibly can't dream? Do bacteria ever sleep, or cells ever sleep? I know of daydreaming, but with a creature that never sleeps, would that mean that if it's capable of dreaming, would it have a harder time discerning reality and fantasy during it's day to day life?

   Yeah, I ask too many questions. I'm sure there are answers for these, but hard for me to understand. To summarize, though, I love dreaming. My life is nothing but order, so I'm glad there is time in my day to let chaos take effect in dream world(my favorite part of the day...:) )

General Discussion / Re: I need to rant!
« on: February 09, 2010, 07:21:49 pm »
If the challenges aren't meant to be dead serious then maybe the mods should reflect that attitude by not taking their deadlines and rules so seriously either.

   Once again, we can't change the deadlines, that's automated. I don't see how that even reflects any sort of "seriousness" other than it being purely a technical reason. We just put it out there(quite literally, on the front page with a ticking timer), so all users can see it. The rules are created mainly by challenge winners, and if need be, tweaked by us mods(with their permission of course). We just want to respect that user's rules toward the challenge. If there is an issue during the week of that challenge, sometimes we actually DO ask the challenge creator if it's ok to let that challenge submission slide, or allow it. To be fair, that person earned it, we try to follow his/her initial view of how the challenge rules are ran, rather than handing them a gift, dismantling it without their permission and handing it back to them. Just like in politics, it's never the good things you do that get recognition, but more over the bad things. Human nature, I suppose....

I also appreciate that you took your time to post and explain things to me.

However I feel like if the creator isn't there to sort these situations out it's kinda like a medieval kingdom that's run by the villagers.  Isn't there a way that more people could get control of the site so these kinds of problems wouldn't happen again.  It all seems highly too automated.  And I realized I missed the deadline but were the rules clearly stated I would've submitted my single sprite only  ;D

   We DO have access to certain things and tools that other users do not. These things help us moderate the site and make sure it's functioning properly, as well as with the general user base. In that aspect, I'm not sure I understand the villagers concept. At any given point, a mod can step down, and another user can fill his shoes. This isn't some figurative monarchy, it's a general community of artists. And every website needs a bit of rules to keep it in check on certain things. I can understand that some views on pixelart differ from site to site, but that's what makes each site stand out! We don't claim to be the definitive of what pixel is; rather, it's just that way the site would rather it be. Please understand this.
   If we have something that's TRULY bothersome, we do get in contact with the site creator, and try to make some adjustments. He has and DOES come through for us in those occasions. Besides those strange site issues, it's mostly things that can generally get worked out by us,(otherwise, it's pointless to have moderators, wouldn't you say?).
   As for another overcompensation comment, I'm not too sure if that point was made about the way challenges are ran, or just generalizing moderation of the site entirely. It really boils down to the amount of users active on the site. On Pixelation, the volume of users isn't as high, and submission of art isn't as high as well. This makes rules much more easier to pin down, as the general active user base has a firm understanding of them as well, and can easily explain them to newcomers too. This also has lead to what can be percieved to be seen by a newcomer as "a site with elite artists, with harsh criticism", because of it being a very tight knit group(though, I'm glad to see some more lurkers come out of hiding and submitting art....).
   Because of this, a user will usually go to another site where he/she feel there are artists more along his or her level. At this point, we get to Pixeljoint. The site is general open to any user willing to submit pixel art, in a gallery mindset; gallery mindset meaning more of a show and tell type thing. Though criticism is still encouraged, some users tend to be a bit over-polite, and avoid any type thinking that they are jerks. And due to this mindset, many newcomers tend to go to Pixeljoint, before they consider Pixelation(mainly going off of user's transitions from one site to another, that I've seen in the past, ever since I've been active on both, just my view, not a least not yet : P) So when these new users come to a "pixel art" site, they're not so keen as to how go about making cleaner pixel art, or pixel art at all. The large userbase also makes it difficult for us to get to each of their questions(though we do get to them eventually, even though most are generally answered by our FAQ page, which hardly anybody ever looks at :)  ) And in this setting, there's no doubt that sooner or later something will be misunderstood, or a catch-22 will be found. That's where we come in to try and sort things out to help them understand. Some issues get resolved, and others linger with time.
   We try to guide them, with these set of rules we've chosen, in helping them make better art for display of their gallery. I'm all about improvement, and am glad each time I see a user in the weekly showcase, whose gallery showed how much they've improved from past to present. If any user here has any objection to that on the basis that this "competition" ruins any type of artistic integrity, I think that's down right silly.
   Finally, let's get one particular thing straight: we're NOT the only site that enforces rules. Not to be combative, but moreso as an example, does not pixelation enforce it's rules during a challenge? Say for example, in 2008, we're people not to be temp. banned if they didn't meet a Secret Santa deadline? When doing the Hex collab, were there not rules to follow in submitting a tile, or else it would be turned back until fixed? Why is this so much different from the rules of Pixeljoint challenges? I guess I am picking on Pixelation a bit, with a greater reasoning for understanding the mindset, even though this thread wasn't brought about by any mod here, nor does it really represent the general mindset of the site.
   I just say this because it truly chaps my bum, that even though these 2 sites have co-existed for so long, that I get the feeling there's some type of passive aggressive view over the other, or how things are ran. It's as if we're the butt of some joke, even though we support activity on this site, and post it on our site. I'd just rather not see the relationship between these two sites disintegrate, because of petty views over each other(not specifically pertaining to pixelation, as I'm sure some pixeljoint users feel the same about this site as well).
  In either way, more towards Mike, and without sidetracking any longer, I can definitely understand your frustration. To put it plainly, it'd best suit you to submit something a bit earlier, or post it in the pj challenge thread in the forum if you feel the piece in question is questionable per challenge rules so the mods can make a hasty decision, or give you more guidance.(again, you're not the only one this has happened to. Ask an awesome artist by the name of Stickman, who this has happened to about 3 times now. However, he understands the technicality of the site and gets why it happens.) If you don't give us time to help you, than it's much more difficult to give you time to make you're issue work out. I also hope this doesn't have any affect on future submissions to the site, as you're a pretty good pixel artist.

Thanks again, The B.o.b.

General Discussion / Re: I need to rant!
« on: February 09, 2010, 02:07:14 am »
   Hey Mike, it's The B.o.b., one of the mods from Pixeljoint. It's not really fun trying to be a diplomat from the "other pixel art" site with the issues, but I guess I have to speak up.(I would rather this was taken up face to face with us directly at Pixeljoint, though in our forum,as we're not here to ruin or step on your free will...ranting on whatever you want is up to you)

  •    Yes, the rules are a bit cloudy as to what desgnates the definition of a sprite. Remember, challenge winners create challenges and we work with what they give us to make it a bit more globally understood. In your case, it would seem that we failed in that area. The problem here, though, is that when I look at the other challenge submissions, ALL of them were stand alone sprites, so at that point, defining the supposed understood concept of the challenge didn't seem so important at the time. Nobody submitted any scenes, so it was understood that people got the meaning of the competition.
  •    The main problem here, is that your submission came in late. I saw the original, and thought it was awesome at the time, but it was understood that stand alone sprites/characters were wanted instead(though, again, I'll agree with you, in that the way the rules were stated can be contorted a bit). If the sprite by itself was submitted by itself in time, we would have been able to submit it for you, lickity split. Heck, even if it was submitted a day or two earlier, the mods would have had time to discuss it among ourselves, and possibly allow it. But it wasn't submitted in time(the updated piece), and we don't have the capability of adding challenge submissions into the challenge after the DD, which is posted on the ticking clock on the front page. Only our site creator does.( and that does not denote any type of negativity toward him)
  •    This is mainly a point to be made to any one participating in the challenge at Pixeljoint: It's just for FUN! There's no need to get caught up in the heat of the moment. The general purpose of our challenges and reward system is just an alt. way to get users active with the site, and get better rounded off with being a good pixel artist by challenging them with activities made to take them out of their comfort zone. Anything otherwise, is absolutely NOT what is trying to be achieved there.

   Also, there are plenty of artists there that build strong networking relationships with each other, and companies DO look further than challenge winners, as far as pixel art portfolios go. Don't think you're being screwed out, because you're not. Was just a simple time and technical issue...

Hope this helped somewhat...

Thanks for listening, The B.o.b.

Pixel Art / Re: Female Portrait
« on: January 07, 2010, 08:57:25 am »
Out of curiosity, and pertaining to the means: was this color reduced than lightly touched up?

Pixel Art / Re: Present improvement
« on: January 03, 2010, 05:21:57 am »
I'm sorry if this is a bit short, but it's direct and to the point: stop relying on dithering too much. Focus on the basics first(volumes, perspective, primary color/hue selection, etc.) THEN focus on the pixel art afterward.....Also, don't be afraid to use references. They help. : )

General Discussion / Re: Official Off-Topic Thread
« on: January 01, 2010, 06:33:43 am »
Party hardy, safely!

Happy new year guys.

I got a question about ProMotion 5, not worth making a topic for though.
How do you select something? Seriously. Am I just a morron for not having figured out how to do this, or does ProMotion not have a selection box?
(It seems so illogical that it doesn't have one. Seeing as it's a proffesional program, and even Paint has this basic option)

Heh, I remember the first time I got Promotion I had the same basic question, being used to MS Paint's quirks. You're gonna' have to get used to the "animated brush" selection option(the dotted square) and the "freehand brush" selection option(the lasso) to take the place of the selection tool in Promotion. It's a bit jarring at first, but you'll get used to it within about 4-5 pieces. Trust me on this one, I'm a hardcore MS paint user, and Promotion is DEFINITELY friendly to ex-MSpaint users. It'll even get to the point, where Promotion may surpass your expectations of MSPaint. You'll become so used to hot-keys, that you'll be scratching your head when using mspaint, and finding that your left hand is hitting hot keys for no reason(in my experience, that's the one thing my brain keeps forgetting, when transitioning from PM to MSP)

Archived Activities / Re: Secret Santa 2009! GIFTS GET!
« on: December 25, 2009, 10:59:04 pm »
EDIT: On my gift i'm sorry it wasn't animated like you asked but i'd never animated anything before and spent much time trying too only for it to not work... D: So it may end up being animated later. Maybe.

No worries, I enjoy the gift as is! Thanks again, and have a great Christmas.

Archived Activities / Re: Secret Santa 2009! GIFTS GET!
« on: December 25, 2009, 05:02:56 pm »
Heh, Rorschach'd...I love it. Thank you, Heyy13!

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