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Messages - Piotr
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51
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 04, 2015, 09:18:01 am »
Quote from: Ai on October 04, 2015, 08:09:00 am
You still need to define 'best', since what palette is 'best' is a matter of application and personal taste.
You already know what is the meaning of single word "best". If you mean something different, use better wording, depending on what you mean:
"You still need to define 'best palette'."
"You still need to help define 'best' for some 4-year old kid with ideas."
Quote from: Ai on October 04, 2015, 08:09:00 am
Quote
Quote from: Ai on October 03, 2015, 06:36:37 am
EDIT: on the general topic of general 256color palettes, this looks interesting, and almost certainly better than the standard 6 6 6 or 8 8 4 colorcube palettes. My tests confirm it.
Thanks, I might consider it. This page reminded me of using 9-bit RGB and limiting 8 LSB combinations to 4 of them. In "Hardware Palette" section, red LSB was made by xoring green and blue LSBs:
00=000 (slighty dark or black)
01=101 (slighty magenta)
10=110 (slighty yellow)
11=011 (slighty cyan)
Yes, it's quite a clever solution.
However, it is not made by xoring green and blue LSBs, but red and blue LSBs. That's what the page says, at least.
Read closely:
Red_Bit_0 = Bit_2 XOR Bit_5
Red_Bit_1 = Bit_0
Red_Bit_2 = Bit_1
Green_Bit_0 = Bit_2
Green_Bit_1 = Bit_3
Green_Bit_2 = Bit_4
Blue_Bit_0 = Bit_5
Blue_Bit_1 = Bit_6
Blue_Bit_2 = Bit_7
It says Bit_2 XOR Bit_5. Bit_2 is green, while bit_5 is blue. But whether it's made by xoring one pair or another, it's same colors.

52
General Discussion / A closer look on interesting 256 color palette
« on: October 04, 2015, 07:20:47 am »
I've seen an interesting 256 color palette here: http://kim.oyhus.no/Palette256.html
I understand it! Here is the mechanism:
Red uses values 0, 42, 85, 127, 170, 212, 255.
Green uses values 0, 23, 46, 69, 92, 115, 139, 162, 185, 208, 231, 255
Blue uses values 0, 51, 102, 153, 204, 255.
Depedencies for green:
Green uses regular values if red and blue use same sets (regular or bold).
Green uses bold values if red and blue use different sets.
Depedencies for blue:
Blue uses regular values if red and green use same sets.
Blue uses bold values if red and green use different sets.
This makes 7x6x6 or 7x12x3=252 values. Black, white, red and cyan are represented exactly.
Remaining values are filled by grays: 51, 102, 153, 204.

53
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 04, 2015, 06:25:17 am »
Quote from: Gil on October 04, 2015, 02:19:36 am
You should really respond to replies in your thread, what's the point of opening one otherwise? You complained that no one was trying to help, yet when I gave my opinion on your palette, you ignored it. Now Ptoing asks you a question, kindly asks again to reply and you just ignore him completely. So again, I wonder what you want to get out of this thread? It's very difficult for us to help you if you make it all so vague?
Because I'm a kid, I keep forgetting such things. It was not my palette, but someone shared idea into web. I didn't ignore opinion, but I just considered it on mind. I was just thinking reply was not required. There is still my new palette without review.

Quote from: ptoing on October 03, 2015, 09:57:02 am
Making a good palette is something you need to learn with practise. If you can not make a good palette for something specific from scratch, you wont be able to make a "best" palette. And again, "best" makes no sense in this case anyway.
What if I can borrow NES palette and extend it? I know it won't be best, but it will be very good. Or do you think it would be best?

Quote from: ptoing on October 03, 2015, 09:57:02 am
But you have not answered my question as to why you want to do this yet.
Sorry, but too few information. I need a quote showing what I want to do.

Quote from: Ai on October 03, 2015, 06:36:37 am
EDIT: on the general topic of general 256color palettes, this looks interesting, and almost certainly better than the standard 6 6 6 or 8 8 4 colorcube palettes. My tests confirm it.
Thanks, I might consider it. This page reminded me of using 9-bit RGB and limiting 8 LSB combinations to 4 of them. In "Hardware Palette" section, red LSB was made by xoring green and blue LSBs:
00=000 (slighty dark or black)
01=101 (slighty magenta)
10=110 (slighty yellow)
11=011 (slighty cyan)

54
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 03, 2015, 07:24:58 pm »
Expanded NES palette + programmer stuff (you can click images to zoom)

55
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 03, 2015, 06:01:22 am »
Quote from: ptoing on October 02, 2015, 10:58:47 pm
What I would like to know is what is the end goal here? Are you planning to make some kinda custom "retro" console using an FPGA or something, or make a virtual console like PICO8?

If not this is all pretty pointless imo. As I stated before, if you only have 256 colours it is better to change them according to specific needs of your game/project.

Then again, this is all very esoteric with todays graphics hardware, and this is coming from someone who really enjoys restrictions.
But your suggestion takes a lot of time!

56
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 02, 2015, 05:33:43 pm »
Quote from: Ai on October 02, 2015, 12:28:30 am
Personally I believe that it isn't possible to generate a genuinely 'best' palette, for reasons I have stated before.

However I do believe that 'general purpose' palettes can be significantly better than the classic RGB 8:8:4 or 6:6:6 palettes. So I'm happy to provide some palettes in GPL and PNG format, which represent the closest I have gotten to a 256color palette that is generally acceptable.

(They were generated using Lch(ab) colorspace, by iterating over possible L values (0..100), checking which values of C and H are displayable sRGB colors, adding those colors to a list, and when done, artificially boosting contrast and applying 'k-means' algorithm to reduce these hundreds of thousands of colors to a set of 256. Variants were using different amounts of contrast boosting (and I also decided eventually to force the presence of a pure #ffffff white).)

If you're interested I can upload a zip file containing them.

EDIT: Link to zipfile. Contains GPL (GIMP/Inkscape/Mypaint/etc), PNG, and SOC(OpenOffice/LibreOffice) versions of each palette.

Also an Imgur gallery for quick preview
First serious help! But please force both pure white and black and reduce potential of NES palette problem (lack of good saturated red/yellow/green/cyan/blue/magenta).
For 'general purpose' keep in mind text console palettes, black/white monochrome, games, etc.
But... Have you tried your palettes? Is the palette below good enough?
This is a subset of 16-16-16 level RGB where values are from 0 to 15.
Right 1 step: add 1 to every component
Right 4 steps: add 4 to blue
Down 1 step: add 4 to green
Down 4 steps: add 4 to red

57
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 01, 2015, 03:38:39 pm »
Quote from: Gil on October 01, 2015, 03:24:54 pm
I think we've reached a point where no one has a clue what this thread is about?
A good explanation:
I want a best 256 color palette, suitable for both programmers and artists. When someone suggests a method, use all suggestions together if possible, and you can use modifications to make it better. Read each method and modification carefully. Images I post without feedback are only samples, not intended to be candidates or good palettes, because I am not very good on making palettes alone.
Q: Why didn't you already do this before?
A: I didn't predict it will end up like this, for both methods (Ai) and attempt/sample images (Gil). Also I didn't know the terms "programmers" and "artists" before, but that's less important.

58
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 01, 2015, 03:20:21 pm »
Quote from: Ai on October 01, 2015, 03:16:46 pm
.. So, what you're really trying to say is that you're not generating colorcubes, but something more complicated?
Your question: Yes, but only if it's possible.
Talk: Read changes in my comments.

59
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 01, 2015, 03:14:15 pm »
Quote from: Ai on October 01, 2015, 03:08:39 pm
Quote from: Piotr on October 01, 2015, 02:50:10 pm
Quote from: Ai on September 30, 2015, 10:52:49 pm
I'd generally suggest that best (most accurate summarization of original colors) reduction performance is achieved with a perceptually-tuned colorspace like LAB. And I must point out that having all luminance information in one channel is a goal it achieves. Not perfectly IMO, but noticably better than YCbCr or YIQ, which was an earlier and simpler technology.

However, if you are generating colorcubes, as your comment about 'equally spaced values' suggests, this is a completely different situation from reducing colors, and I'll stand by my comment of HUSL being the best in this case (combines the merits of LAB and HSL).
I said equally spaced values.
So did I. Seriously, read my post. It says 'equally spaced values'. You quoted it.
I have no idea why you think you need to correct me on that.
I said "I said equally spaced values. Equally spaced means there is equal difference in each consecutive values of one component. For example, in 0, 128, 255, the 128 is closer to 0 due to gamma correction, and can be increased.".
Note it said one component. This allows it to be mixed with component reduction. Equal spaces in one component are independent of same in other component.
My question is "best palette", not "best palette with equally spaced values". I didn't mean to use exact general definition. Take gamma correction, and both equally spaced values and reduction into account.

60
General Discussion / Re: What is best 256 color palette?
« on: October 01, 2015, 03:06:14 pm »
Quote from: Gil on October 01, 2015, 01:05:26 pm
Piotr, you seem to take a very "programmer"-style approach to all this. The stuff you suggest just isn't what an artist working with your palette would like to see. You'd end up with what a programmer would call an "excellent palette", leaving artists to scream at their screen. For example, almost any artist would prefer it if a palette worked well for creating assets, even if that meant components aren't spaced close to equally. For example, artist will probably shift colors from dark areas to light, so there's more indices in the lighter end of the spectrum versus the darker. This will make the art very crude in shadowy parts and that will make a programmer go "look at these artifacts in the dark end, that's just not right!", forgetting to take in account the fact that the lighter end of the art looks 5 times as good.

Also, I see you post stuff like this palette:
{placeholder}

No artist on this forum would enjoy making games with this palette, apart from maybe a demo-scene-style curiosity.
That image was just an attempt forgetting some things. For 256 colors question, I'm trying to combine the goals of programmer and artist perceptions. The images in first post showed example palettes, not intended to be candidates or good palettes. In RRGGBBSS format where S is shared least significant bit, very light/dark colors must be grays or be oversaturated. I really don't know if it's good enough. Does combining unique palettes of several games with about 30 colors each produce great results? (Unique means that colors in palettes are different enough to add up to 256 colors. Keep in mind that 256 color game can be reduced to 32 colors and still be usable.)
PS A 256 color palette fully hand-picked would take a lot of time and I am not very good in making hand-picked palettes.

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