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Messages - BladeJunker
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11
Pixel Art / Re: [WIP?] RPGish stuff mockup
« on: June 14, 2012, 11:04:49 pm »
I can't create an effective color palette either so I can't offer advice on that. :-[ Arne's 16 color global palette is most excellent and easy to use since the low number of colors speeds up decision making when coloring sprites. Version 20 of the palette on page 3 is mostly stable at the moment.
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=4306.0

edit.

Wasn't too much I'd change, I shifted the left foot and right shoulder down a pixel since the stance was looking odd. Same with right foot I pointed it to the front of the view for the same reason. Also added to the right thigh since it looked thin compared to the left thigh and tried to detail and shadow the head a little.

I think the outlines serve it best and the gender shines through quite well despite the thick wardrobe and short stature of the sprites. You've basically exceeded Nes color limits for the characters unless you use sprite layering but you have a fair number of sprites present that could get in the way of that, if you just want the styling as an effect I'd stick to 8 colors at most per sprite for a semi "8-bit" look.

For natural or organic tiles I would think some variations on the default tile would help your cave out. More cracks, stuff growing in the cracks, missing bricks, etc. you get the idea.

Despite the small sprites you can only either push for more perspective accuracy(Higher tilt on the view angle on the sprites.) or an approximation of the view for pleasing sprite appearance. Right now you're kind of in the middle and neither priority is being served well. I can't say I ever liked the flat Egyptian look of old RPGs so I'd try to get the perspective better.

You might want to consider a higher position for the characters when up against the wall unless its required that they keep away from the wall, idk? Just something to consider.


I should ask, what resolution are you going to make the game window, just curious at the scale everything will be seen at?

Overall I find the graphics quite pleasing to eye, I could look at them for long periods of time without getting sick of them if that makes sense. ???  ;D

12
General Discussion / Re: perspective observations
« on: June 14, 2012, 09:54:22 pm »
interesting :B btw the 2600 is one of the highest restriction consoles there is no? i wondered if it was the first but found out about the "Magnavox Odyssey" but i think that is 1 bit colour :lol: 2600 being it's successor to some degree
That is an understatement. :lol: It can take months as opposed to weeks to figure the best way to tackle a game design on the 2600 just on the restrictions alone. As a collector I can't say I have any interest in the Magnavox Odyssey1 since it was just a complicated board game that didn't really require a TV to play the games but the Magnavox Odyssey2 interests me, however its hard to get one for a reasonable price or just to find the carts at all.
The MO2s main restriction is a lack of custom sprites since the character table is like 95% fixed but just like Lego you can use some creativity to make some interesting game scenes.

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and yeah It'd be a pain in the butt to produce that style either way most likely for the artist, or whoever got relegated to generate the tilt frames, although if it was just coloured primitives or indexed frames i could see how it might be able to be more efficient than rasterizing 3D planes (mainly only applicable for old tech), although memory wise if done frame by frame it'd take up quite alot more. seems kinda fruitless and time wasting to bother with the capability of any PC from the last decade.
Oh I know its all old news with retroware and it definitely applies less and less to PC gaming as we progress but consoles still represent a fixed point in time so to speak and offer interesting challenges.

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I'm quite a fan of Landstalker, Dark Savior is basically a sequel as it was developed by the same studio, I recently discovered and started playing, Light Crusader cool thing about it is that it has free 8 directional movement, weird thing is you can push all the NPCs including ones that are attached to chairs and tables :huh:
Ooo that's a another good title, art direction wise kind of western-ish with Dark Savior looking kind of like the middle ground between Landstalker and Light Crusader no?
Yes its always been a debate on the best way to offer movement from an isometric perspective(Tank VS Free) but I've always felt most people just want the avatar to move where they point the joystick towards. :)

I have to say I quite like the idea of pushing NPCs around in their chairs. :lol:

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that trailer made me feel that the game was kinda iRobot the game :hehe: and yeah it's a bit tried, i was always cynical, being of the opinion that robots would only ever do exactly what you program them to do, so fearing them was ridiculous, but I've seen quite alot of evolutionary and self learning computers for it to be marginally plausible under the worst conditions, it's not ridiculous however for robots to kill, sadly military robotics has already gotten to that stage, remote control maybe but still close.

I enjoy the idea of evolved digital "life" with capabilities equal if not surpassing our own, mostly in a utopic context though
I can't say I fear digital life at all since it would be nice to have some kind of legacy for the human species instead of none which I simply base on our apparent contempt for nature lol.

Oh I know military robots are not my favorite idea for robots either but what else would they do but kill, armies don't travel the globe offering hugs. :lol: I guess it all ties into where scientists can acquire funding which is usually war, makes me think of Metal Gear Rex and Otacon and their mad tango.

Still its not all gloom & doom since Japan and academia have plenty of robots not designed to kill people that could turn into something wonderful. :)

13
Pixel Art Feature Chest / Re: Pharaohs Return (C64)
« on: June 14, 2012, 07:14:37 pm »

Wow that is looking awesome, its improved greatly since the start. I like the idea of the Hat acting as a powerup, perhaps that's why Indy never leaves it behind? :)

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@bladeJunker: The hires pixels are there with or without raster splits :) These splits just add 1 or 2 extra colors. I don't think this is a big deal, because the game would need splits anyway to show more than 8 sprites.
Right, the two scales of pixel coexist by default, duh on my part since the VIC-20 can do the same thing. The C64 is deeper technical well than I had thought, I should take a swing at it with some pixel so I can understand it better. ;)

14
General Discussion / Re: perspective observations
« on: June 13, 2012, 06:40:33 pm »
most my game tests end up being tank controls just because it's extremely easy to rig up in less than 10 minutes, I usually just prototype stuff in the Blender game engine often while I'm still modeling  :lol:
I did a camera relative system that allowed free movement whilst the camera tracked, and allowed for lateral camera rotation, but at the time i couldn't animate for junk so it was a weird legless robot that floated and bobbed up and down, but it rotated in the direction pressed, it was quite an achievement using logic bricks, i basically rigged up a compass with empties I can not for the life of me figure out how I did it and replicate it either :lol:
I had similar experience with a Python based 3D engine my buddy and I tooled with, it was a 300+ poly human locked in the T stance, got the job done but it looked weird. :)

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there are varying degrees of "chibification" some more tolerable and appealing than others, I don't mind alot of them if they aren't sickly cute, but don't pixel or model in them too much, arne style chibi-esque proportions are fine with me though, most the time I aim for some semblance of realism and proportionate heads in my personal work
I know sometimes chibi can get so cute and sweet my teeth hurt. I definitely think in pixel art at least we fall back on Chibi way too much in general like realism can't be achieved to a certain degree in low resolutions. However the degree of realism is definitely a gradient of change rather than a binary choice that I wish more would experiment with this line of art direction. :sigh:
Arne yeah, he found a good ratio of chibi that works for all kinds of subject matters. I've been using Arne as a point of reference for my Minecraft type game for the 2600 as far as character proportions. I think I'm going to go with a Tall & Short groupings like Dwarves versus Elves kind of.

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and ohhhh think I follow, so basically manual frame by frame tile scrolling? sounds a bit pointless now days
thought you meant some crazy wizardry like this

where somehow it's frame was calculated by its vertical height on screen, it kinda looks like its melting (looked too melty without colour change) whipped up extremely fast, in the right context and if you look at it as such could reproduce some fake foreshortening and vertical camera rotation. Wonder if anything like that's ever been attempted  :-\
Pointless now a days, I'm going to say perhaps most of time yes but old techniques have a way of finding new uses. Still most game engine tech is based on finding a good compromise between image space or memory limits and CPU costs. ;D

Well with crazy wizardry like a real time dynamic image filter the CPU overhead would be high enough that basic polygon prisms and textures start to look more practical. I tell you I went down so many dead end streets with 3D dial back optimization, sometimes the technique of optimization becomes more expensive than the 3D mesh you had in the first place. :crazy:

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yep works perfect in Dosbox :yay:
Good to hear, yay indeed. :D

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actually the sprites rotated relative to the camera i believe, it was strictly on the X axis, but yeah the level design was geared toward a certain viewing angle, but you did need to look around corners occasionally to reveal some hidden things to pick up that would be otherwise obscured by scenery.
Well that's the only way to go with that kind of game, that was the problem with Landstalkers being 2D only was false depth sense and obscured scenarios. It really help if the camera can move so you can make better judgments of how objects orient to each other.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/landstalker-treasure-of-king-nole/screenshots/gameShotId,86385/

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that polypostor stuff looks interesting, puppet animation has come a fair way recently, with volume retaining morph targets etc so you can set up the pivots and when you rotate you can manipulate, like the cage transform tool that's been implemented recently in some image manipulation programs, major benifit is not having to worry about shading, and getting more organic and fluid deformations, puppets have a certain rigidity that can barely be avoided. I don't mind the idea of high resolution pixel doll animated sprites makes it easier on the art asset generation side of it.

seen binary domain? as far as i can tell it's yakuza studios attempt at gears of war  ie. coverbased action shooter :lol: but with japanese style and appeal :D dunno if it's any good,

I agree the morphing is so good now since older tools had issues but also I feel some Flash animators push this method too far at times instead of actually sitting down and creating additional real animation key frames that sorely needed during scenes of their animated features. VanillaWare is the ideal of modern 2D animation, great traditional animation standards with morphing added to smooth the result even further.

Funny you mention Binary Domain since I just came across this game title recently under a list of possible sleeper hit games since they haven't had much advertising. I was resisting to look at reviews since the story looked intriguing enough that I'd get it just for that but I think it would be prudent to get some feedback on it before I buy since Mass Effect looked so great but an hour in I was getting bored already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceTpSrIBNC0

Idk I like the story but it would nice to see something where robots were not the end of us, Matt Groening said as a kid he was fascinated with robots but also terrified of them. :lol:

15
General Discussion / Re: perspective observations
« on: June 12, 2012, 10:50:22 pm »
agreed and the turn and move mechanics didn't help Resident evil in that regard either. and yeah I'm quite fond of 2D on pre-rendered 3D especially in JRPGs (Legend of Dragoon (PS1) final fantasy 7 (although even at the time I wasn't keen on the  non battle model styling) Final Fantasy IX and the list goes on) and Adventure games Grim Fandango was an awesome one :D (I've actually done some experiments with fixed camera angle 3D adventure game style setups ;D just never got around to rendering the scene down to 2D with a Zdepth mask, but AGS can handle 3D on 2D with quite a few plugins, and I think in the one I saw you import the 3D collision model and camera position too, but it involved writing C like code calling load functions etc so it's not entirely artist friendly)
Its a shame Capcom never did add analog control to the PS1 RE games since tank controls weren't needed once the Dual Shock was introduced.

Not a big fan of chibi, or perhaps it just felt unnecessary with 3D models to SD the characters which is something I agree with?

Ooo good choice on Grim Fandango, that is one of the best examples of 3D over 2D I have every played. Wild perspectives are neat but I always wanted to try this setup from a more traditional view angle like the The Sims but more action oriented, I guess I'll just refer to Twinsen again. ::)

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I've seen 3D effect via sprite/tile Stacking and often looks effective but quite bizarre, one game that uses that method I recall playing was this game called inner worlds (i forgot the title and it took me like an hour to find) but had some form of recursive tile perspective, that moved each 'planar' dependant on the camera/screen location which is like a parallax effect. don't follow what you mean by animated tiles though
Neat game Inner Worlds but I can't say I've tried it, not a bad look as far as tech is concerned since I can see its appeal despite being a tad segmented. I like the sprites and shading mostly although I've never been fond of the gritty look.
I can't remember the name but I played some arcade games that used this setup for flying through 3D like Space Harrier, with scaling it was mostly convincing for tunnels although you can never get rid of that sprite segmentation completely.

Animated tiles are looping animations, you take for example a 16x16 2D tile and create a 16 frame animation of the pattern tiling and moving left one pixel over per frame, place a line of them across the screen width and play the animation and it appears to scroll. In the case of the Nes it didn't have multiple parallax layers so game developers would use this method to fake layers of depth in the single background layer allowed.
You can do the same things with any point of repetition even a 2D sprite with true perspective but it works best with repetition or the case of true perspective a fixed track and direction for the camera on account of the increased image memory use, most examples of use tend to use a dynamic load system as to keep the memory footprint low and recycle the memory used by shifting sets of the frames around instead of pre-loading all of them at once.

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or little big adventure I&II as they were called in europe, I only ever got hold of it via a demo disc back in the day, been intending to play it since I think I'll try acquiring it :yay:
I always liked that name better anyway, same here only tried the demo of 2 but regret not buying it back then. I played through most of LBA1 but never finished it, upgraded my PC and it became harder to run it afterwards, Dosbox maybe?

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was playing some saturn games via EMU recently and Dark Savior had a fixed angle rotate-able camera but would always spring back to the intended bearings, 3D scenes with 2D sprites sprites like BF 2&3. I'm currently experimenting with 2D sprites in 3D, but so far I've not got around to getting any animation working on them, I've just done static billboard sprites and rotating camera any engines you know of that make sprite management easy in 3D? I'm not skillful/patient enough to code my own system, might research how to achieve it in unity

also played Soulbringer not long ago, and that game had game characters comprised/dolled together from sprite chunks, that were all 3D generated imposters from various angles due to the free camera, 3D terrain and environment. it looked interesting

Dark Savior is a game I respect but never played it, went with a PS1 back in the day but I'll get to DS eventually. I like that camera spring setup as its a good compromise between letting the player move the camera but maintaining ideal angles for the 2D sprites. Can't say I know of any good engines offhand but maybe look for an existing game that might have become open source.

Soulbringer another neat game I wish to try and a decent approach to limited 3D. In my LOD research I wanted to apply what I was trying to do with static objects for greater pixel resolution through orthographic texture tiling using slight increase in polygons beyond the traditional billboard/imposter of 2 polygons towards animated creatures.
The most promising approach I found was "Polyposters" by some people from the University of Prague. While I didn't agree with everything they did it was the closest running example of what I wanted to do.
http://dcgi.felk.cvut.cz/publications/2008/kavan-i3d-polypostors
What I liked about Polyposters was the billboard mesh animation which took the burden off of the texture memory which is the main drawback of prerendered 3D sprites in that you can't give them much resolution and you are limited in the number of types you can use EG. Myth. http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/myth-the-fallen-lords/screenshots/gameShotId,341/
Where I differed with them was in context of use and asset creation standards as I saw them as an LOD that could work at close range of the 3D camera along the lines of PaRappa the Rapper but more rigidly jointed. I'd seen enough Flash animations that went with that paperdoll approach like South Park where you could get a lot of range of motion by rotation of 2D impostered body parts from only a few primary view angles (Front, Back, 3/4, Profile, etc.).
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/430324
In asset creation I just wanted to add basic things like texture flopping whenever possible to reduce the texture memory used per paperdoll, use alpha masking for outline form instead of using a shaped polygonal edge, and add a higher LOD more optimal for cinematic uses.
To paint a word picture just imagine Capcom's brilliant pixel art fully represented decently on paperdolls in full 3D worlds instead of the lackluster stuff like SF EX with its phony 3D arena box and blocky fighter models. http://www.mobygames.com/game/playstation/street-fighter-ex-plus-alpha/screenshots/gameShotId,147240/ :blind:

I admit that dolls have there weaknesses but it sure was a long awkward transition for Japan into the 3D generation of games which only repeated once the PS3 was released, I'm just glad they are back to making 3D again to their standards EG. Yakuza3 as that long stint of DS gaming was hard on Sony of Japan. :ouch:

Damn I'm long winded so I'll stop here for now. :D

16
2D & 3D / Re: (semi)low poly modelling experiments (undeadly)
« on: June 12, 2012, 09:00:21 pm »
I'm glad we were on the same page as far as PS2 level quality since I wasn't sure if you were going higher or lower. :)

Yeah I quite enjoy the art of low poly counts like those of the DS or early 3D meshes, that balance between visual appeal and the rendering thoroughput has always been a fun challenge. I was such a clunky worker my friend always did the rigging which I really should have tried to learn, I guess I still can as Blender always resides on my HD.

Strangely enough I became interested in high poly way before it was even practical for systems which lead me to an LOD obsession sometime around when Team Fortess2 was first announced and Shiny had made Messiah. Even though I learned a lot about optimization of meshes I really missed out on actually making games because of it, my friend and I were making the next Deus Ex but I kept looking to the horizon and not on where I was or what I was doing. He has a good job and just got married so he doesn't have time for my flights of fancy these days. :-[
Yeah Zbrush what a powerful tool, man its easier than ever to model 3D now, I hope to some day get my hands on that. That certainly is the key to high detail work is building upwards from simplicity, believe me I've tried many times to jump the ship and model directly in raw polygonal high detail and it never goes well.
PolyPaint™, what a crock. :yell:

Heightmaps are good, I like them but my art skills are weak for complex organic textures so I kept doing meshes by hand. In open world games they are a godsend as modeling mountain after mountain is wholly impractical. I think you'll collaborate with someone eventually as going for a game art and design degree is the ideal place to meet like minded people for game projects both professional & personal.

Yes the Japanese have a keen interest in beauty regardless of medium as they make the slickest comics, games, and animation. Sometimes that pursuit could get them into trouble with early 3D as games from there could be prone to more popup and clipping than a western developer would do for the sake of smoother graphics. That's what impresses so much about Konami and MGS as they found a great sweet spot between mesh resolution, level scale, and degree of world simulation.
Oh I know, the whole world is getting into game development including China & India too which are making good products too, actually a lot of game companies and animation studios hire from all around the world so you get some pretty awesome talents brought together. ;)

Lol long legs yep that is an art ideal globally I think as the statuesque form pops up constantly regardless of nation. I've created to those standards often but lately I've been trying to get range, gradient, or contrast in body types even within tiny sprites as I'm tired of the homogenization you get with everybody being built to perfection. :lol:

17
Pixel Art Feature Chest / Re: Pharaohs Return (C64)
« on: June 10, 2012, 07:36:33 pm »
I tend to associate increased resolution with objects closer to my eyes which I guess most humans do (lol) which is why I was never a fan of Mode7 scaling where they blew out the pixels when scaling the sprites larger to make them appear as if they were going closer to the viewer.
Anyway I should ask STE 86 if there is any way to make the foreground tiles single pixel? Idk maybe a double wide layer for base color with a single pixel overlay of outline or shadow maybe.

I can't say I'm a fan of mixed resolution either but as far as my Atari research its something I've had to deal with out of necessity, still I think its applicable to the C64.
I think a hierarchy of resolution priority tends to be the logical approach to mixed resolutions which I think is akin to truncation of subdivision in polygonal meshes IE. more resolution in the head than the body, more resolution in the face than the head, and more resolution in the eyes than the ears.
As far as 2D I think character and item sprites benefit greatly from single pixels especially in visual separation and focus to the player. Although Half-Life was 3D I thought the increased texture resolution on charge stations and elevator buttons to that of the world was a positive example of visual focus for players.

Its interesting to discuss but I tend to lean towards what ptoing said about just using double wide pixel throughout instead of adding rastersplits, it just seems hard to add to a game when compared to an art slide. :-\

18
General Discussion / Re: perspective observations
« on: June 09, 2012, 05:01:58 pm »
I guess the first thing that comes to mind with 2D at least is that true perspective prevents efficient tiling of background graphics even if the character sprite can be in true perspective, much easier to use a 3D background with a true perspective camera with true perspective 2D character sprites.
In general I think the 3D world/2D sprite approach didn't get enough use back in its heyday, too many developers kept zooming in (Myth1) and pixelating the sprites and texels instead of just panning X&Y from an ideal camera distance to preserve the visual quality (Breath of Fire 3&4).

I tried to tile perspective once for the purpose of low texture memory use in 3D imposters but ended up going back to orthographic since it helped a lot to raise the image resolution for what it lacked in true 3D appearance. In general tiling true perspective mostly creates an approximation which is far from true or accurate results.

As far as tiling graphics with true perspective from a top down view in 2D it can be done in a vertical stacking layer system but only from a fixed static view since panning in any direction would change the perspective and you'd need a looping animation which itself would need strictly X or Y camera movement like an animated tile or fake parallax.

The other alternative is 2D or 3D characters over a prerendered backdrop from any arbitrary view which allows for true perspective of both although full screen slides do tend to use up a lot of storage space. This is the easier approach as far as true perspective backgrounds since each image is basically just a big painting and its creation can be treated as such.
I've never liked this approach except for old school adventure games (Lucas Arts) since the lack of view control wasn't a problem with the casual pace of exploration and puzzle solving but when put in a life and death scenario (Resident Evil) not being able to free look gets frustrating.

Speaking of Resident Evil (PS1) I wish it had used an engine similar to that of Twinsen's Odyssey or more specifically the full 3D areas of the game. This approach fixes the camera view to a single true perspective which basically loops the background rendering with only the character based areas of the screen render getting updates as they move. Although you couldn't move the camera in real time you could change the view perspective with the tap of a button, the avatars back if I remember right which at least prevented foreground view blocking.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/twinsens-odyssey/screenshots/gameShotId,79648/

Well that's what I have to say on the subject matter for now. :)

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2D & 3D / Re: (semi)low poly modelling experiments (undeadly)
« on: June 07, 2012, 06:49:53 pm »
Well I like the torso as its very elegant in design and the texture colors work well. My only CC is that it seems like a little too much polygon use put towards overall prism smoothing than there needs to be. Best to take this advice with a grain of salt since the resolution range your model is in is tricky one, its that post Quake3/Unreal 2 quality range so its hard to split hairs. My only reference would be Metal Gear Solid 2&3, although your design is very smooth the poly count would rise quickly with more ornate costumes based on this mesh.
The outlining form and or joint prisms seem good as full motion range should deform the mesh well, shoulder looks good but the hip joint might give some trouble.

Cool robot, reminds me of Tobal with its vertex painted surfaces, minimal gouraud shading and textures. The model is a bit too ornate when you consider the low spec texturing, in particular the shoulder indention. Overall I'd consider a little more texture mapping to optimize the mesh more. I always thought the mech based games on PS1 and arcade titles like Virtual On found a good sweet spot in model aesthetics.

I really like your cube world and although the tiling is obvious in the textures I do love the bolder colors despite the rudimentary design, nothing wrong with conventions since we take comfort in them.
I like the square dudes as they fit the setting well but if you're going with sprites like BOF3&4 you should add more soft slopes to your terrain as in ramps or reticulating splines plus more ornate mesh tiles to close the aesthetic gap between the smooth sprites and the angular polygonal world mesh.
Lastly I'd go with a softening or blurring of texture along the edges of your polygons to reduce the look of angularity even with meshes that are cubic by nature.

Well I see you dabble in a bit of everything much like myself, I like your 3D stuff and look forward to where you go with it. :)

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Howdy, yeah me too on improving my skills. :)

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