[WIP] Valor Dump - NEED HELP WITH RUN CYCLE D:

[Sokota]

Well this has turned into Valor's Dump, so take a gander and critique on anything you see here.


[Current]


[WIP]



Other Stuff


C&C Welcomed! Thanks!
Sokota

[Sokota]

Ok well, after a bit of toiling on it, I tried to make a bit of a torso, then tried to add some volume and anatomy. I'm not sure how its going, but my first try is the left torso, and my current one is the right. Eventually he'll have clothes that cover up his anatomy, but I thought it would be good practice. Also, I'm thinking about using this for a game, fullscreen, at that. Do you think that would work well? I know he's a sorta of larger sprite, but I really like him. Anyways, here is the updated torso. I'm not sure what to do with the back, and I was looking at a few muscle pics on Google Images for reference, nothing worth posting though. *Not other art or pixel art*



All C&C welcome. Hopefully I didn't bump too soon.

Sokota

Edit: Made some more quick alterations due to some friends input.

Better?

Edit: Added some more 'anatomy'. I'm not sure, because I can't find any really good sideview references. Also, I'm completely clueless about what to do around the neck area and the back. Help would be appreciated.

[NaCl]

Hey Sokota, not looking too bad. My main critique is that if you are trying to practice anatomy, draw the entire figure! If you draw and finish one section at a time it is really hard to make them look right. I usually draw a stick figure, and get the proportions and pose correct on that, and then draw the detail on top. On this one, don't forget that there are muscles along a persons sides, which if this guy's pecs and abs were so developed, his obliques probably would be too. However, his arm will probably cover that, and if you animate him for your game his torso will be twisting.

[Sokota]

Hey thanks for the suggestion. I did try some legs, but I think they are bit..out of whack. I need them to be angular like his chin, and kinda rigid looking I guess. I don't know, so here is my update:



I want the legs to be semi rigid to exaggerate a run cartoony style, much like Battlefield Heroes or Team Fortress 2, so I made this very quick animation to illustrated what kind of run Mr. Grunt will eventually have.



Also, I still have no idea of what to add on his back or around his neck, so all C&C is welcome. The sooner I get him done, the sooner I can move on to accessories and animations !

Sokota

[NaCl]

Hey Sokota,

About your legs, they look off for a couple of reasons. First, legs are about half the total body height. So in this case, I stretched out his legs to be 53 pixels tall, same as his upper body. Next, think about the shape of a leg, especially a muscular one. It is not just a triangle, but the muscles within give it a certain shape. The calf muscle bulged out towards the top of the lower leg, and the thigh muscles make it thicker towards the top. Here is a simple edit on his legs:



Now for your run, add more frames! Three frames will not suffice, even if you are going for a cartoony run. Just because something is cartoony doesn't mean it is necessarily easier and you can cut corners.

What do you mean about the back and neck?

[Sokota]

Yeah I was thinking about that, your edit, I mean, but I need the legs to be..someone offsetting of the torso..that's why they are smaller. Now about the actual anatomy, mine does suck. Thank you for the edit. Its like, perfect...That run is just to get an idea across. I didn't spend much time on it, I didn't need too. Thank you for the great edit, I'll try to fix mine up a bit. Also, I'm confused about what to do with the neck and back, like, giving them any type of anatomy or muscle definition. I should probably make an arm soon, because although this will be a mouse-aiming game, I want the arm to blend in with the body, making it feel more natural than just being pasted on top of his shoulder. But say I wanted a run, not as exaggerated as the mockup one, but similar, for this guy, how would I do that with such beefy legs? I want the focus of the sprites to be his torso and head, not his entire body...as weird as that sounds..Thanks for giving me advice..animation him is going to be a pain in the butt..Though I am prepared for the hell I will take for making such a large sprite =].

Sokota

[Sokota]

Well, I tried redoing the legs, and I was really happy with your edit, so sorry if my legs seem too close to yours...Heh. Anyways, I'm satisfied with the figure, I hope you guys are too, but here he is for some final crits before I move on to animation and giving him something to wear:


Legs Redone

As you can see, NacL, they are pretty close, but I improved the knee area, I think, as well as the feet. I also did a minor color change, and I think it looks better and a bit more natural. All crits welcome!

Sokota

Actually, I still need to give him some arms, so I will try to finish that soon...

[ndchristie]

About your legs, they look off for a couple of reasons. First, legs are about half the total body height. So in this case, I stretched out his legs to be 53 pixels tall, same as his upper body.

I haven't measured but it's generally halfway to the base of the butt/genitals in an idealized human.  real people and video games play with this a lot but if we're going to measure with "science" better make sure it's right .

[Sokota]

Well, I played around with the knee height a bit, and gave him some well deserved boxzors. He's been streaking it up for too long now. Here he is, the 'final' base sprite for our game.


Shaded legs, knee,  boxers

Pretty soon this topic will turn into a dump for outfits and other game stuff.

Sokota

[Sokota]

Well, I took a break from the soldier and started on a old stlye, stone windmill. I'm having troubles shading the stones, which are overexaggerated to match the style of the game, and I need help. I'm such a confused little pixelist.  I'm not sure how I should shade them, and made them pop off the structure of the building. I started with forms once again, as it is more fun that lines, but I am at a loss of how to do it. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


WIP Windmill

Sokota

PS: I don't want to do a ton of shading just to have to redo it all over again...so I did a bit to show you how the rest would go.

[Ben2theEdge]

When drawing a big structure like this you should start with the basic shape of the windmill, a cone-like object, and shade that first. That is the primary shape. Then draw in the cracks between the stones and add little details, etc. Don't treat the stones like a bunch of tiny little independently lit objects; they are only DETAILS in a much larger object!

Excuse the quality of this example, I spent less than a minute on this. But you should render it in this order: Shape -> volume -> texture/detail.

[Sokota]

Thank you for the edit. That answers one of my unasked questions: Which comes first, the base shading or the texture? Anyways, thanks. And in a minute? That's like, awesome.  You must work lightning fast, and I must be the slower pixelist on the planet..*sigh* Oh well. Well, I tried to do some form shading again, on something less ambitious for now, and made this fence, which, if I add a bit, would tile nicely I think. I want to stay in the style of the soldier, so kinda like a painted-celshaded-cartoon-exaggerated-look. Anyways, here it is:


A Wooden Fence

I could throw variety in there by adding bullet holes and such, but I was just wondering if this is a step in the right direction..Also about the windmill, I wanted it to be front view, or else animating the wheel would have been...too hard for me, I think. So how do you take something from the front view, and make it 3D? I tried here with the fence, dunno if it worked or not..3 colors on the fence.

Sokota

Edit: What it looks like sloppily repeated:

[Sokota]

Ok well, finally took a wee bit of time on the run animation..I'm following NacL's advice from another topic, and made a stick figure first. I need help at this stage. To me it looks ok, but I know its not right..Also, I won't be animation the arms because it is a mouse aiming game, and therefore aren't attached to the rest of the body..Well they are, but you know what I mean. I'm going for an exaggerated, cartoony run, and here is what I have so far..which isn't much:


Basic run

No head or torso movement, I know. I dont know if there will be, heh. So yes, all help and critique is very welcome to help me walk through this process. Being a stick figure, I can edit it pretty easy, so please feed me..feedback!

Sokota

[Corinthian Baby]

There's no movement other from his legs, which is incorrect, his body should be bobbing up and down, and his torso leaning more to the right if he is running. Also the head would be titled to the right as well a bit. I mean I know you said you don't know if there will be any movement on head or torso, but if not then it will keep looking wrong, realistically or cartoony.

Actually, if you are going for an exaggerated cartoony run then these movements would occur to their extremes. Right now, I guess it's a good start on the legs but it's way to stuff to be running in any way. The whole body works and moves when you run.

[Gil]

I'm going to ask a simple question. When you are running, is there a point where both your feet are next to each other on the ground? Because your animation has that frame.

Try imagining for every frame if you are ever in that pose when running. If not, try to envision what pose you are in, and draw that. It's an easy way of animation that doesn't follow all the principles, but using this method is very easy for beginning animators. When you can get some animations looking decent, it's time to hit the books and learn all about anticipation, follow-through, stretch and all the important animator stuff...

[Dr D]

I'm going to ask a simple question. When you are running, is there a point where both your feet are next to each other on the ground? Because your animation has that frame.

Yes, and as well as a frame in which both of his feet are up from the ground which is very, very, unnatural, not to mention very hard to do. It's almost like he's doing a hi-step.

[Jad]

Dr

On the contrary, both of your feet leaving the ground is what defines a run, but you probably knew that?

Doing it like in the animation, though, is impossible, yes.

[Gil]

I agree with Jad, the high point is fine. Running always means you lift both feet.

I suggest starting with getting keyframes ready btw. Start with a 4 frame run, then tween the right frames until you get to the frame count you want.

[Sokota]

Okay, thank you all for the replies, I will try to get another one done. I need to start completely over, and follow that tutorial all the way through. Heh. Thanks for all the critiques, I must be noobmeat for you guys =P.

Sokota

Edit: Any C&C on the fence or anything else would be appreciated as well!

Double Edit: Woot! I did this in about half an hour, following that oh-so-famous walk cycle floating around. I'm pretty happy with the progress, as it looks sooo much better. The only thing is, I need more of a run..so how would I do that? Change the contact to have only one foot on the ground or something? Here's what I have so far..remember, I still have to animate the actual soldier, this is the just the skeleton to work off of:


Improved? Walk cycle!

Cheers,
Sokota

[Gil]

A run is completely different from a walk. In a walk you always have one feet on the ground, two on the contact. In a run you have no feet on the ground, one on the contact frames.

It's impossible imo to change a walk into a run. Try this reference:

[Sokota]

Hmm, yeah that is what I was afraid of. I will redo this, yet, once again. However, that was a big improvement from the other one, right?

Sokota

[Sokota]

Ok well, after another rough half hour this is what I came up with. I think it is stylistic and the direction I'm going for, but somehow it managed to have 10 frames, haha. I then realized that I followed the reference posted by Gil pretty closely, and didn't realize it had 5 unique frames. Anyways, here it is. I tried to make a 12 frame run bit it lost the spark this one has:


New run             Old Walk

Crits?

Sokota

[Ignacio]

Mmmm... I have a problem with the high point... the raised leg raises too much, IMO... somebody agrees?  I would incline his spine a bit, as well...

[Conzeit]

I think that probably stems from him copying the reference run's leg, but not the inclination of it's torso. For it to look right he'd either have to lower that foot in the high point, or tilt the torso to match the movement

[Sokota]

Ok well, I tried to take into account what you guys were saying, and I think I made it smoother, but I'm not sure. Here is the edited run now:


New Run Fast     New Run            Old Run

I also change the contact and highpoint frames a bit, and also sped it up a little. Is it any better? I'm pretty happy with it, but unless you animating gods have something to say..

Sokota

[Conzeit]

I did not make myself clear. The leg, specially when it's towards his back should NOT go that high.
Lift your leg backwards and try to make your leg go that high, you probably cant because chances are you're not some chinese contortionist! You copied the leg movement from the refference that was posed, that was ok but what was wrong is that you did not copy the way they positioned the torso, your torso SHOULD NOT be straight like it is. So either lower that torso and make it more like the reference, or lower the high point of that leg.

[Sokota]

Oh. So it was when the leg goes behind him that you were worried about...I thought it was forwards. Considering this is going to be a cartoon styled game, is the run really that out of whack? Also, I realize I did not copy the inclination of the torso, I wanted more of a happy run, I guess, look up Team Fortress 2 or Battlefield Heroes for what I am going for. Also the torso being straight has another reason than to add 'happyness and cheer' to a mouseaiming shooting game. If the torso moves during the run, it will be hell for my programmers to program the arm to move with the torso, and still spin in whatever way the player aims. The bounce is going to be difficult as it is. Could you possibly make an edit for me? I really do want to this to look right and as near perfect as I can get, but I also want to have it have that 'happy go lucky soldier' look as well.

Sokota

If no edits surface, I will tackle it again.

[Sokota]

New Run?           Old Run            Oldest Run

Okay well, my edit is the furthest left. Did it address the problem enough, or not? I need to have this run done this week, so feedback is great!

Sokota

Also please note, its supposed to be a happy go lucky run, almost a skip in emotion, even though its war. Um, yeah.

[Sokota]

Well no replies, so I thought it would be fine to bump with this:


Old Forms Run            New Run [Better?]

The wireframe helped alot, but it wasn't exact (Of course), but I think I did pretty well on this animation. Sure, I'm ready to take some more critique for it, but its the only run cycle I've ever been proud of. Anyways, just leg forms, no shading and whatnot, and excuse the nudity (There are no real manparts anyways xD), but yeah. Have at it?

Sokota

Edit: I guess it really does look a bit odd without arms, but those will be added on later, for the mouseaiming. Imagine him holding a gun to his shoulder..

Double Edit: Tried to improve some more, so..uh, did I? Just saw the white flashing white pixel..ignore, pwease? For me?