[WIP]Dragon Mount

[Grim]

Hi there, I'm trying to make a dragon mount for an isometric game, and right now i'm working on the outline/form. I really could use some help/C+C
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc217/Grim802/dragonmount4.png

Slightly better form (I think):
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc217/Grim802/dragonmount5.png
Come on guys, I need C+C :[.

Pretty much starting over lol..
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc217/Grim802/dragonmount7.png


Need help with body :|.

[NaCl]

Hey Grim,

Anatomy wise, I can not perceive a lot that is wrong with it... but it's not right either. it seems your proportions are mostly correct, but the pose is very stiff. His arms and legs are almost perfectly straight, which makes him look awkward. Perhaps you should bend his arms, like he is holding the reins of the dragon. Look how this rider holds her horses reins:



His legs could do with some bending too. If he were going to ride the dragon bareback, he would probably bend his knees and bring his leg up a bit so he could grip better. If there is a saddle, then there would be foot holsters he would bend his legs up to get into.

His lower leg is too thick. Remember that in the front, the bone curves back a little, and in the back, the calf muscle bulges out towards the top and smoothly comes down to the ankle. Let me show you a picture instead of trying to explain:



On the subject of the dragon, he looks like he is going to break the poor little thing's back. I'd make that dragon significantly bigger, or make the rider much smaller. Also, give some distance between the dragons head and the rider, right now the dragon is getting his horns all up in the riders face.

Your shading is decent, but it looks kind of pillow shaded. Look at the light source on the head, and then follow it. It looks like it is above and to the right, so shade accordingly. On his leg for instance, his top thigh may catch more light then his shin, which is not facing the light source as much. Right now you just have a shadow going all the way around the edge (same goes for the arm).

Overall good work. Just make it less stiff, and you will have a fairly good piece!

[ndchristie]

I couldn't find any iso dragon refs that i particularly liked (kartia did a good, simple job, but they only ride them in one scene and i have no captures of it) so I just made my own:



few things -

• isometric is more than just a word, it's a system.  Moreover, it's a very handy system, as it allows you to draw very quick comparison lines on symmetrical objects to make sure they are still aligning properly in space.  If you were to take any similar parts of this, such as the man's shoulders, the foreclaws on the wings, the front feet, the back feet, the back knee, the droop of the wing folds, you could draw a perfect isometric line to compare them (and if you compared some other things, like the front wrist bend, the dragon's shoulders, you'll find that, perticularly in a rush, nobody does this perfectly ).  currently your sketches are not really isometric, they are more in what drafting calls "cabinet projection" in which one side (their side) is angled but the other (their fronts) are flat.  This is a very interesting perspectival system but probably not what you intended.
  
  
• all living, working things are systems and those systems both define and are defined by the anatomy of the creature.  Now, I likes me a big dragon, more like the "fell beasts" from LotR, so i decided that your mount was more small and squat, a "toy" dragon or a whelp (gave it cute-eyes), with smaller wings (as per your sketch), and therefor decided that it would need all the help it could get in terms of movement.  I've given it more of a froggy sense of things, on the theory that if it couldn't maintain flight, it could at least launch itself around like a chicken, both sets of legs ready to spring forwards.  the wings are folded over the rider's legs, both for protection and to avoid the previously stated problem of how to show a rider properly (it's hard).
  
  

Lastly, size of mount and effectiveness are often two different things.  this mongolian horse is a nice walking animal which would appear quite small against a western horse.  Arabians are similarly spindly but were known for their uses as fast light cavalry for centuries.  A similar adaptation is the late medieval "Hobby" breed (from which we get hobby-horse) which were very small and very effective.  On the other end, this belgian draft, modern edition of the beligan charger, would be largely useless on the field, because of its lack of speed.  The girl in the photo there has a nice medium horse there, good in speed and strength, which would probably have been suited along with Andalusians (pride of the moorish invaders) and other such builds to carrying the best cavalry into battle.

[EvilEye]

I couldn't find any iso dragon refs that i particularly liked (kartia did a good, simple job, but they only ride them in one scene and i have no captures of it) so I just made my own:

You mean you just whipped that thing up? Wow

For dragon references just look at pictures of lizards / dinosaurs / crocodiles / and bats. Mix'em up a little, and there you go.

[Jim16]

Wow, Mr Ndchristie, you really out did your self. But to me this is an example of an over extensive edit..Sure if you were to explain in more detail how you got to this very point(And I read, and that just doesn't seem to help me very much). Also, why go to so much trouble on a piece in which that person hasn't got near finished? Not only is it demoralising, but he now has hell of a big shoe to fit.

I personally don't know as much as I would like. but isn't it normal to define what you did there in words, even slip in the useful iso things that you did, and even explain how that works. I uh think you should of at least let the dude have a good go at what he was doing before posting such an extensive edit like that that.

Overall I think my opinion stands true, as I think edits should be made to teach specific things and not an overall of everything. The anatomitical(excuse the spelling) aspect of this is way above the average pixel artists abilities here on this forum. Also he hadn't even made clothing yet and looked more of a template, Where as your edit to me serves no help in which he would go about to get posture and mount right. Sure the idea behind it is thoughtful, but is it to thoughtful?I respect the idea and so on.

Again this is an opinion. I wish not to make or cause trouble. Anyway, I have to much time on my hands, and now I'm off to give my theory on creation XD

[ndchristie]

Q: Why such an extensive edit?
A: It's not an edit, it's a reference.  The relationship is conceptual and conjectural.

Q: Why do something more finished than the piece to be talked about?
A: volumes require a certain amount of light and shade to be read, and once that's in there, you've got the piece as it is now.  It's not finished by any means, about halfway there at the most.  Any less, and it could not illustrate form as effectively as I would like to.

Q: Why provide such an edit before he's had a chance?
A: First like I said it's really not an edit, and second you should always look to examples before, during, and after you work.

Q: Why not explain the process in detail?
A: Because it's long, tedious, and involves nothing but constantly drawing lines in iso to see if things line up.  It's basically step one: draw a piece.  step two - draw another piece.  step three: measure to see if they line up.  No?  redraw.  Yes? repeat steps 1 through 3 for everything forever.  Iso is a very simple thing that people constantly over-think and that leads to imaginary problems.

Q: Why clothe the figure, and not address the posture specifically?
A: Because i was bored and there's no reason not to clothe him, and because i wasn't focussed on the rider but merely included him as a necessity.  As far as not helping with the posture I think I suggested a simple solution : cover the legs with wings as he seems to have intended to do anyway.  It's a bad idea in the long run because it promotes running from your problems, but it's a good idea for game sprites where the goal is to put an image on the table rather than study the physics and form of proper dragon-riding.

Q: Why post a piece with anatomy better than the average artist?
A: I don't know who you are calling the average pixel artist, I find threads here which make my head spin with the talent displayed daily in all 3 main forum halls.  As far as why not to produce something less than I am capable of, where on earth is the benefit in that?  A posted image should always, I believe, demonstrate nothing but the most honest suggestion, regardless of whether it is a quick sketch to fine pixel-edit to a tablet paintover.

I don't come here trying to impress and I certainly don't come here trying to discourage.  If I have presented myself here in either manner it was by mistake.

[Jim16]

I see as a reference it is good, I agree, but in this case thats all it should be. It should not be copied in more ways than one. I'd like to see some imagination on Grims behalf in a way and means that he can use your "reference" in which the ending result is not going to be uncanny in similarities. Sure adopt a few things. But the problem with such awesome references    is that some the intermediate artists and that of a beginners seem to adopt all features from the reference and the ending result is usually so alike, that its sickening.

"conceptual and conjectural" Damn you  Had to get the dictionary out!

I have to say I agree 100% about when references should be used. But like I said above, almost every direct reference ends up as almost the same as the artists work. At the certain level of knowledge that is.(this is not factual, but rather opinionated).

Also I don't understand, you go off about how tedious it would be to explain the art ISO, when you later agree that that the art is simplistic. Wouldn't it be easier to explain in rough, the simplicity of it all, rather than going through the actual piece? And I understand you have done this to a point, but surely there is some more you could elaborate on, that is of interest?I'm not asking you to do so  or am I expecting you to do so, as I feel your contribution its self, purely as a reference is and can be used as "conceptually and conjecturally" as any refernece he would have. (that last bit might not make sense to you, but it does to me )

Well as I think of it now, posture is something he should alone learn, so to go in-depth with an "Edit/Reference" would be of no help to him in the future

I think the use of the word "Average " is misleading on my behalf, so I apologise for that, as the average like you say are immensely found in buckets loads on this community. I think as a group I should be talking about the Beginner and the Intermediate pixel artist, and even so I really shouldn't of said that, because this site is not for the faint of heart and the critique is meant to be read equally among beginners and  the awesome(could be wrong).

I don't come here trying to impress and I certainly don't come here trying to discourage.  If I have presented myself here in either manner it was by mistake.

I do believe that you are right and that it is my fault for perceiving you in this way, for that I do apologise. I think that the way things are seen are through the eye's of the beholder, And that this time I have jumped to conclusions due to my past personal experiences.

Well, if I ever write this much again.. ..I'd write this much again. Well good day to you, now to get back to work...uuugh!
Again My apologies(I tend to get in these situations recently  )

[huZba]

I think this needs a small followup for Adarias' dragon. As in how to construct one. Cause in grim's piece it looks like there's a bit of a struggle in transferring the thoughts onto the canvas. When you know how the foundational building blocks work instead of a single finish, you can make lots of unique dragons and whatnot.

[Shrike]

Ha ha, you guys. Looks like we scared him off. Anyway, aside from the back-and-forthing going on between Jim and Adarias, A few things:
I like his underpants. 
Anyway.
His legs are way too straight, which makes the dragon look flat. Bend them, and make them stick out a little, and I would put the rider back more on the dragon, say, maybe 5 pixels? I would also make the neck of the dragon a tad more diagonal. It seems to me that you're afraid of the isometric system, and you're making everything straight to try and avoid having to figure out the angle of bent things. Don't do this. Experiment! Screw up! that's how we all learn. I'm not having a go at you, because I do this to iso all the time.

Also, the character looks pretty bland. As I said, put him farther back on the dragon, and also bends his back, throw out the arms so he's holding reins, and/or just do whatever you can to make him more lifelike.

Toodles!
Shrike

[Helm]

Jim16, if someone is overwhelmed and doesn't feel the desire to finish his art anymore because he got critique, edits, reference from other people out of their own time and good will then perhaps he's not ready yet to be in a critique environment to begin with. Pixelation cannot shield people from their own selves.