A four armed man crosses paths with a curious wolf.

[AlexHW]

[Zach]

lowest right bicep needs to be raised higher
besides that this is super hot, and i kinda dig the desaturated kinda deal you did with it, but can you show us the version where you didn't do that too?  i think there's a lot of detail that is missed out because of the desaturated'ness

[CrumbBread]

I think I like desaturated better than I would a saturated version -- but in any event,

it does looks like you just drew a two-armed man and then stuck two more arms on him. It seems to me that a four-armed man would have a slightly different anatomy about the shoulders. Do you know what I mean? (ie, the extra two arms don't influence the other two arms at all (I can easily erase the extra arms in my mind and then he looks perfectly normal -- they're kind of like plastic wings).

No suggestions on making it better, of course. *shameful face*

[ndchristie]

unsaturated is fine, but difficult to see = hurts the piece.  the low-contrast-in-values destroys the rendering quality of the piece which would be excellent if you just used visible ranges.  As it is, it looks washed out and cloudy.  If this is a style point, its a point thats seriously hurts this and all of your other works

other than that it looks good, some anatomy issues with the arms, but nothing i want to try to fix.  maybe helm or someone will be able to give proper suggestions, his higher right arm is the one im most concerned about

[Helm]

The pixel art is pretty strong, I could post anatomy nitpicks but I dunno if there's a point to that. Anyway, all arms too long, ab section abnormally squished, feeling reservations on the legs on the whole.

What I don't get is the theme... everybody draws what they find interesting, of course, but, just... muscle man with four arms, top two gesticulating senslessly (?). I get the feeling there's not much thought that went into the composition. Did this start element by element? Did you draw a muscle man with four arms, then let's say the background and finally a wolf, or did you start with a realized composition in mind? If the former, I guess that's ok, this is the sort of thing you get when you improv compositions, but if the latter, I really don't see what this is supposed to be doing, and I believe there's merit in discussing the composition.

This isn't the type of critique this place is here to provide, I know, but then again Alex, you're not the type of artist that needs pixel art critique much, so we might as well discuss construction and themes and all that?

Edit: a strong point I have to make about your art, Alex is that I feel you're enamoured by muscles and how they work, and that's fine. I have that too. I do tens of studies on an arm or something sometimes, but I think you should reign that in when you're doing composed artwork. I think you should perhaps put clothes on your people, hair, props and accessories that signify their personality and the symbolic quality of what you're doing. I really really dig muscle groups and how they work in unison, but I don't think I'd want my art to be defined by that interest. Just a thought.

[Filax_666]

Since I'm not very good with english words, I shall let my editt speak for me. Mainly, I changed the colours and the arms (upper left arm (his right) looks too big, when compared to the others, but I didn't have the courage to change it...), along with some other tiny bits of the picture which bothered me. Adarias said what I would've said, regarding the colours.

[curious fact] Hey look, Helm posted at the same time I did... [/stupid fact]

[AlexHW]

i kinda dig the desaturated kinda deal you did with it, but can you show us the version where you didn't do that too?

No such version exists. The desaturatedness was intended from the start and all the colors you see haven't been altered to compensate in any way except for the darkest shade of the wolf, before it was darker, which made it look odd, so towards the end it was lightened a bit.

it does looks like you just drew a two-armed man and then stuck two more arms on him. It seems to me that a four-armed man would have a slightly different anatomy about the shoulders. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I understand. I don't know the best way two extra arms would grow on a human, so I was creative and tried to suggest the shoulders to be behind the shoulders of the forwards arms.

What I don't get is the theme... everybody draws what they find interesting, of course, but, just... muscle man with four arms, top two gesticulating senslessly (?). I get the feeling there's not much thought that went into the composition. Did this start element by element? Did you draw a muscle man with four arms, then let's say the background and finally a wolf, or did you start with a realized composition in mind? If the former, I guess that's ok, this is the sort of thing you get when you improv compositions, but if the latter, I really don't see what this is supposed to be doing, and I believe there's merit in discussing the composition.

Edit: a strong point I have to make about your art, Alex is that I feel you're enamoured by muscles and how they work, and that's fine. I have that too. I do tens of studies on an arm or something sometimes, but I think you should reign that in when you're doing composed artwork. I think you should perhaps put clothes on your people, hair, props and accessories that signify their personality and the symbolic quality of what you're doing. I really really dig muscle groups and how they work in unison, but I don't think I'd want my art to be defined by that interest. Just a thought.

heh, yeah, the composition wasn't planned from the start, but I tried to position things nicely as I worked so things blended well. I started with the guy, then the wolf, then the background. Its something I should work on(planning the whole thing before starting), but sometimes I just want to pixel when I feel like pixeling and have no idea what to pixel, ya know?.. :\

As for the muscles, yeah your right.. I'm trying to get away from it.. I did add some cloth like the pants and waist thing, but yes, I should do more clothes.

I like the edit Filax. Lately I've just been interested in working with desaturated tones. I guess desaturatedness isn't so popular.

[Filax_666]

I guess desaturatedness isn't so popular.

No, no, no...lack of saturationg is good, until the moment your eyes start hurting when you try to spot the details. But then, my screen sucks and I've been looking at it for a long time, som it might be just that.

And, Helm, I don't see any problem with the composition...I agree with the abnormality of the situation, but i seriously don't see why you should think worse of the piece because of that...

[Helm]

Why? Alex is that good that the weight doesn't fall on rendering technique anymore, but on composition. And I find this composition odd.

I don't mind the desaturation, really. I just look at it at 3x zoom and I make everything out clearly enough.

[Alex]

Personally, i like alexs original piece up top. It gives a good foggy sense of style. Its a really classy piece.

[Helm]

anatomy critique

edit: disregard greens becoming blues, error in importing the art in pro motion on my part. Not intended.

[Darien]

The desaturatedness puts too much of strain on my eyes for my liking, though as helm said as higher zooms it's fine. 

This is a really nice piece though, I'm glad you've made a scene of it instead of having an isolated muscled man.  It makes me think it would fit in some kind of old legend storybook.

[Ryumaru]

destaturations fine, i can make out details with my really bad eye at 1x( vision is 20/200 in that eye)
the only thing i can think of to make the arms look like more of a part of him are to maybe wrap his trapezius muscles around the back of his arms like a 4th tricep head, but i dont know how that would look or if its plausable that you could move those arms with those muscles...

the rock is WAY to smooth for my liking. i dont know how you could add more texture without dithering(seems to be something you dont want in your piece) but i do no that it brings memories of tsugumo's plastic brick.

[AlexHW]

hm, I like those edits Helm, they make alot of sense.

I'm glad you've made a scene of it instead of having an isolated muscled man.

Yeah, after working on the guy, I felt I should make a scene so it wasn't just a muscleguy like I've done in the past which usually felt empty.

[miascugh]

ahoi alex, i'm glad to see something from you once in a while. when i read the thread title i could have sworn that your inspiration came from this, and i also agree that this looks like straight out of some old oriental or far east legend.
low saturation has been my all-time personal fiend i've been struggling to overcome, so i really just can't say i like it . but on a more valid note, there is this deflatedness of the chest that doesn't go too well with me, it must be something in the shading that ultimately makes me perceive it as a concave i can't really figure out

"This isn't the type of critique this place is here to provide"
i disagree helm, i mean, this implies (and sadly very widely this is the case) that pixel art is only about technique, and i'm talking about pixel-specific techniques. but as i see pixel art more as a (virtual) medium on its own, and not an art form, there's a whole lot of theory that just applies for it as it does for any other media. and re-reading this, that actually should have gone without saying, and makes you saying something like this even more surprising to me.

anyways, alex alex alex, what are you up to these days? i've seen you post on conceptart a while ago, but on your page there are no updates in the cg or traditional department, so i wonder, are you making more of your talent or did you decide to take a whole other lane?

[Helm]

I don't want to derail this thread. Mia, a board about pixel art critique is about pixel art techniques, and their application, foremost. Construction and the like do not apply to 95% of what is posted on this forum (mostly game-related art), and if one really wants that sort of critique there's many other places that specialize in it. That being said, as you saw I didn't really shy from said critique, I'm just stating it's usually beyond the scope of this forum. Most people here will always be struggling with some sort of AA or dithering or color conservation issue, and this will be the place to get critis for that sort of thing, thankfully. THIS is the strength of pixelation/pixelopolis. We don't just deteriorate to constant 'lol this has lots of style'/'I like the red it's so bright!'/'I <3 your work!!!!1' type of comments. We deal with specific techniques. There are a lot of people here that know pixels and are willing to help other people and thankfully this will take care of itself for years to come.

Now tell me, how many people here know good construction guidelines, or are prepared to discuss meta-concepts like aesthetics or the symbolic quality of the signifiers used in art? Not many. People make their game sprites most of the time, and they want them to be as good as those on their old SNES and that's it. I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm saying this is how it is. If and ever the userbase evolves to a lot of 'art for art's sake' type of pixelling that really is so masterful otherwise that all there's left to discuss is construction and aesthetic qualities, I'll gladly see how this will become part of pixelopolis too. Right now, it's not like that.

[AlexHW]

anyways, alex alex alex, what are you up to these days? i've seen you post on conceptart a while ago, but on your page there are no updates in the cg or traditional department, so i wonder, are you making more of your talent or did you decide to take a whole other lane?

Cool web-app thing, That could be useful next time i got an urge to pixel but dont know what.
I was trying to make the guy look like he's leaning forward, so that's probably whats maknig the chest look deflated.
As far as what i'm doing, Not much is happening with me unfortunately. I wish I could say that I am out doing cool things and such, but I can't seem to find the path which feels right.

[Tinygiant]

I love it, I'm no anatomy expert so I'll leave that, not sure I like the washed out look I think maybe you've gone to far with it, I took the pic into photoshop and upped the contrast and I think it just looks cooler no so washed out.

Wicked work tho.

[ndchristie]

Not to be off-topic, but I agree and disagree with the issue of 'what the board is for.'  Firstly, i completely with Helm's assessment of the board's populous, and second, i completely disagree with the spirit of his post.  True, many people here do not know, appreciate, or in some cases even understand more comprehensive ideas like aesthetics and construction.  However, when people (like helm) who clearly have a much deeper understanding and perception of art and nature refrain from posting critiques of that nature, it's a real shame.  It's great to get tips on dithering, or anatomical form, or directional lighting etc, but these are all things that either a calculator, miror, or desk-lamp can tell us without need to go to a forum and ask people, and i have all of those in arm's reach.  Style, construction, composition, symbolism, themes et cetera are all paramount in real art, and it is because of the common lack of these that pixel-art and game-art are often not considered 'real.'  Its true that i dont always think of those things when working, in fact in pixel art i do much less often than i should, but anyone that can point that out and offer advice is a real asset.  (sorry....rant over )

speaking of aesthetics; in traditional media we learn to push darks and conserve lights; to obtain a broad range of values to strenthen composition.  In this, everying is very close in value.  i dont care if the colors are desaturated, even if it doesnt serve a purpose, but for god's sake this low-value-contrast work looks like someone using a dirty brush and not enough pigment.  you dont have to go black, you dont have to increase saturation, but if you want people to look at your work, it needs to be eye-catching unless you are making a point by making it 'muddy' (as its called in painting.)


looks beautiful when raised by 60%.  To give you an idea of how much your work needs its values extended a bad scan of a pencil _sketch_ only needs about a 30% raise to have a decent range of values.  I think it would really help you to take this under consideration, or at least offer a reason why not to.  Most people who use low-contrast styles are incapable of good blending, but this obviously isnt your problem, so what is the reason?  Nate out ---->

[Helm]

That's the thing, Adarias. I know a few things about composition and theory, but not nearly enough to give a crit I can stand behind. I have two semesters of history of art behind me, but still, I don't know nearly enough to pretend to HELP PEOPLE in that way. It'd be like going to a pixel art board and somebody telling you why pillowshading might be good after all. We're experts to other things here, and this is fine. I feel tremendous responsibility about critiquing people's style because there's no right or wrong and because even the way I sell my position is more about the sale than it is about the facts. Some people are charismatic enough to sell shit for gold, you know. But even in less severe cases, for example here you post a very valid -in my opinion- style crit that can simply be countered with 'I am trying something different, something that requires low saturation'. If it were game art, you could counter with 'well the game's not going to PLAY well'. If it were scene art you could counter with 'well that thing won't show at all when they put it on the big screen at the party' but if it's just art for art's sake you can't actually say anything that is more or less (in)valid than anything else. As you saw, Kon can play by the rules before he breaks them (he's done a lot of high-sat work) so it's not a matter of masking bad skillz, it's just... a choice. As valid as Mondrian drawing in horisontial and vertical lines instead of painting mountains. The misty effect is nice, and I was personally fine with it from the start. And I come from a comic art background where usually we work and have been used to seeing art that must read amazingly well very fast, high contrast, almost 1bit work.

[AlexHW]

The desaturation is mostly an exploration I'm choosing to focus on.
I like looking at the natural world and in my eyes it usually seems desaturated.
Because I like to draw what I see and not draw what I THINK I see, it is a habit of mine to reproduce the desaturatedness of the world in my mind.
With game art and sprites and such, you have to compensate in areas so that the product works effectively, hence the usual need to up the contrast and have things pop.
With this image, it just came naturally desaturated, i didnt really think about it, it's just how my mind works based on how I would expect the things to look in reality.

[Helm]

If you're trying to mimic reality, I can tell you that things are a lot more saturated than that in most lighting conditions. Unless you live in a moor somewhere surrounded by deep mist.

[AlexHW]

One has a hard time mimicking reality with that which is not real.
If I want to mimick reality to the extreme, I'd be doing a still-life type of thing.
How I interpret something imaginary is somewhat filtered through what I expect things to be.
The desaturatedness of the world just seems more memorable I guess. I don't doubt that reality has alot of saturation.
Perhaps I could explore the saturated aspects of reality sometime.
If you want to discover something, you have to explore it.

[ndchristie]

i think people are mistaking what im saying about the low-value-contrast thing.  The saturation values in the piece i posted are not very different from yours, they raise a little bit but not much.  what changes is value contrast.  i think the desaturatedness is fine, i dont care about it, but your values make this barely readable to my eyes.  That and the natural world is really quite saturated, and i think showing all the color of the natural world is talent, not compensation (game-art excluded because it seldom even tries to be realistic)

helm, i can see where you are coming from, though i still think if a board worked to discuss such topics more regularly, we would all learn from it.....perhaps not

if it helps, go outside and see just how dark your shadow is, or how green the grass is, or yellow the flowers.  if its a rainy day, marvel at the blueness of everything and how brilliantly the orange streetlights shine because the complementary colors embolden the difference.  take a piece of white china and try not to find a myriad of hues (youll have trouble).  I think the desaturatedness of your work is nice, but if you really think that the world is that subtle, youve spent too much time under flourescent lights

one thing ive been wanting to say for a while, i think the crotch of th elbow looks off, the bicep exte4nds much too far imo.  there should be a period where the muscle falls away and theres just a few tendon srtings to give form

[Kennethfejer]

yeah i bit too washed out for my taste as well, but really cool never the less.

[Turbo]

If realism is your point, you should follow adarias' example and point to high(er) contrast, lower saturation rather than the high saturation, low contrast you've done. I've told you this before, and apparently (most) everyone in this thread agrees. Ron Lemen says that as long as you have the values of a piece "correct" (let's say, realistic), the saturation and hues are of smaller importance. Well, what happens here is that you don't have the values correct to start with.

As an exercise on an abstract foggy reality, it's okay though. Not as reality. Practice on photographs or real-life examples, you'll see what we mean.

[Rox]

I don't agree with all this "Higher constrast plz!" talk. And after staring at the piece for a while, I figured out why.

It looks a lot like a painting this way. You don't think "pixels" the first thing when you look at it. You think "art".

And I happen to like art.

[AlexHW]

how's this:
clothes!

edit:

It looks a lot like a painting this way. You don't think "pixels" the first thing when you look at it. You think "art".

ah, good. I'm glad it gives that effect since I was trying for a more artsy feel.

[Xion]

Rox just put into words what I could not.
Edit: What is that new guy supposed to be doing? Falling?

[Helm]

mistworld continues! I leave you with a haiku:

black pixels hurt me

the forms need to be tightened

and the outlines cleaned

[Blick]

I don't really have anything to say in the way of critique, I just wanted to comment on the four armed man encountering the wolf. It was strange when I looked at it because rather than noticing the little details or the saturation factor that's sparked a bit of disagreement, I noticed this flow that really intrigued me.



I first noticed that the wolf's posture seemed to be a focal point for me and saw that it was because of those lines stemming from the man's face, and it just makes everything feel connected and more friendly and calming about the piece which is probably accentuated by the colors. Just felt the need to share. I really like it, although the arm outstretched directly upwards seems uncomfortable to look at.

[AlexHW]

Edit: What is that new guy supposed to be doing? Falling?

He's skating..


Nice spot, Blick. I always try to have a nice flow in my work to help move the eye around the piece.

[Xion]

Sweet, Inline. Thank you. I get sick of seeing skateboards.

[AlexHW]

[leroy]

i love it. maybe replace the almost black pixels with some lighter ones, since they stick out @ 1x.

[ndchristie]

new one rocks and doesnt have the same problem with values, though they could be pushed further this looks good without.  some issues with the legs but this may be stylistic?  i like the colors on the cement.

[dtek]

Hey guys, I think its cool to experiment with saturation levels, it seems just another tool in the tool box, right? Also, I'd like to mention HDRI imaging, the theory behind the file type is actually quite interesting regarding the range of natural colors versus photos, paintings, etc. Here's a  link in case you're not familiar, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDRI , forget the technical stuff, unless you're into that, check out the photo examples,  I just think its something to think about, atleast, when rendering by hand or when doing pixel art....