AuthorTopic: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)  (Read 9923 times)

Offline LoTekK

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 215
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • LoTekK.com

Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

on: May 31, 2007, 06:27:07 pm
Started working on some art assets for a DS game I'm planning to put together over time. Been making notes on some game mechanics and other miscellany as well. First up was characters, and I had to keep them to a very modest 100 tris (give or take) given the hardware limitations of the DS and the number of characters I wanted to be able to have onscreen at any given time. I realise I could have gone with sprites, but given the different types of weapons, the swappable parts (torso, limbs, head), and the potential number of animations, I decided 3D may serve me better in the long run. So anyways:

Click for wires of characters plus accessories
The big ones are the armored models, while the big headed guy is an homage of sorts, to the one of the main games that serves as inspiration. The models are segmented so I can swap parts based on equipment choice, etc etc. UVs for all the humans are [mostly] shared, so I can use the same texture on all 4 variants.

And started doing up the textures for the regular humans. Head, arms, legs, and torso all come in at separate 32x32 textures. First off, another homage to the same game mentioned above:


A half-finished Old Snake for fun:


Mix-n-match from the above:


Redneck resistance fighters, also showing some asymmetry (jacket and arms not finished):


Even more mix-n-match:


Flats:



Recently started putting together an environment in order to take a break from the characters. This one's still in rough, first/second-pass phase, so I'll be adding more stuff and expanding the building:
Click for animated gif showing multiple levels of a house

Then I started work on some tiles. These are still going to be worked on, and I expect to do 2-4 variants per tile, depending on expected repetition. The parquet needs to be reworked, since the imperfections I've added currently serve to make it look raised and rounded. :\ Bricks are still first-pass. This shot is at DS resolution.




Larger shot (double resolution)

Any crits and suggestions would be very much welcome.

edit:
Forgot to mention, ground/floor tiles are 32x32, wall tiles are 32x64.
First pass at a rock/stone wall (floor?)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 10:44:00 pm by LoTekK »

Offline Stickman

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #1 on: June 01, 2007, 07:13:02 am
Wow!! Your really going for it and looks very full on! I find it a bit difficult to crit as I don't know what the game is about and wouldn't want to put in suggestions that aren't doable, due to hardware limitations

Looking good though...

Offline LoTekK

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 215
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • LoTekK.com

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #2 on: June 01, 2007, 07:58:11 am
Thanks Stickman! Gotta make this real quick, as I'm heading out the door in a minute.



Just testing out the textures on the environment. And now, I'm off for the beach without my lappy. See y'all Monday! :)

Offline poingo

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • :B
    • View Profile

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #3 on: June 01, 2007, 06:12:23 pm
Well, besides the fact that this isn't real pixels, the grass pattern kind of hurts my eyes.  The graphics look somewhat like graphics from Runescape.  :huh:
The above post may not be helpful at all, as the author usually has no idea what he is talking about.

Offline Xion

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1551
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • FourbitFriday

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #4 on: June 01, 2007, 07:04:20 pm
How is this not pixel, Stealth? The context may not be pure, but the textures themselves sure seem to be.
These are pretty cool and all, but I must say I'm not a fan of the limbs flaring out like that.
I think I'll crit more when I get home.

Offline .TakaM

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1178
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • Fetch Quest

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 07:27:41 pm
only crit I have is I think low poly games, or at least ones on the DS that don't have a strictly controlled camera shouldn't use pixelled textures.

well, you could pixel them, but my point is; I don't think pixelled textures work well on the DS since there is no texture filtering (antrosophic I think its called?) and when you're moving the camera around, especially adjacent to textures, they flicker, lose details and just look generally like a pixelated mess.
I prefer bigger textures with more mid-shades so when they're moving around at all sorts of angles, the pixels flickering is less noticeable..
I need to learn the proper terms...



back to the DS not being able to filter textures on the fly, anyone know if it would be possible for the DS to just blur everything after a certain point? one of my DS games blurs all the gameplay when you pause (fully 3D) so I don't see why not, it might be a bit taxing in real time or something.. but maybe someone could shed some light on it?
Life without knowledge is death in disguise

Offline vellan

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 57
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 09:11:57 pm
when going very low-poly, you are much better off picked style over realism.

kenneth fejer has some great examples on his site here: http://www.kennethfejer.com/lowpoly.htm

presently your models don't read right at all imo. keep it clean and identifiable.

Offline Zee

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 89
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • I wish I could have an avatar.
    • View Profile

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #7 on: June 01, 2007, 09:31:07 pm
The blurring is probably just a onthefly screencap, while everything else in the game just hangs. The screencap is altered and manipulated. Then dumped when unpaused.

Also:

What modeler should I use for lowPoly? I can't seem to find a good program that doesn't blur my textures to hell and back.

Offline LoTekK

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 215
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • LoTekK.com

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 10:05:15 am
Thanks for the comments so far. I'll be getting back to work on this today, after a weekend in the sun.

Stealth, the textures are all pixeled. Hell, at 32x32, there's not exactly a whole lot of room to use anti-aliased brushes.
Grass is still wip, but I've gone through a number of completely different iterations to try and find a good balance of all the various aspects, from contrast to saturation to level of detail, though I admit that the amount of tiling is a bit painful. Which aspect hurts your eyes? Brightness (I accidentally overbrighted the lighting in the render but didn't have time to fix it before leaving the house)? Contrast? Level of detail? Saturation? Some or all of the above?

Quote
The graphics look somewhat like graphics from Runescape. :huh:
I hope you're not implying I ripped graphics from that game. I'll assume you're talking about the level of detail, since the textures (especially for the ground) look nothing like runescape's (ground textures are, from screenshots I've seen, effectively single-color with vertex shading). You may not be aware that the DS has a hardware ceiling of 2048 polygons, which is not a whole lot to work with. Careful allocation of polygons is paramount. Put another way, I'm not exactly going to be pushing anything "next-gen" on the DS.

Xion, I guess you're referring to the way the limbs get larger towards the ends (as opposed to the pose the characters are in in the early shots)? That was a bit of a stylistic choice helped along by the much lower polycount I'd be used to (100 vs, say, 300 and up), since it helped define the silhouettes nicely. I'd be open to changes, though, so I'm looking forward to your critique.

TakaM, I'm planning to have a semi-controlled camera, in that you will be able to rotate the view in 45 (maybe 90?) degree increments, but not be able to zoom out past a certain distance (primarily to keep the polycount under control, but also for the reasons you mentioned). Pixelled textures can work and look good, though (see some of the recent Final Fantasy games for the DS), as long as you keep an eye out for overly-contrasty and -detailed textures (since those will get very noisy). On that note, my grass is probably overly contrasty, and I may have to hit the drawing board again to try and get something more akin to the grass in FF12 Revenant Wings (as opposed to something like Chocobo Tales, which has a much tighter camera zoom).
As for larger textures, that's not really going to help a whole lot, since the 32x32s will map roughly to that pixel size on-screen at the intended zoom level. Any larger, and you're looking at wasted pixels on the texture, and more importantly, wasted texture memory (of which the DS has very little).

Blurring the scene would basically not be feasible during gameplay, for various reasons. One is texture memory (you'd need to screencap in order to post-process the blur), and the DS doesn't have, as far as I'm aware, hardware support for blur, which means you'd need to do it in software. Long story short, it'll be slooow.

Vellan, I'm very familiar with Ken's work, both 2D and 3D, and I'm a big fan. However, I'm very much trying to toe the line between stylised and realistic while keeping within my strict poly-budget. I'm curious to learn what you mean by the models not reading, as for the most part I've gotten fairly good response about the readability of the characters at that size (roughly 50ish pixels tall), but any suggestions you may have would be appreciated.

Zee, depends on whether you're looking for a high-end app or a low-end. Milkshape would be an option, though I can't stand the app myself (has plenty of export options, though). Blender's another option, though there's no way to disable texture filtering in the viewport (just render without AA, which is where all the textured shots in this thread are from). The high-end apps like Max and Maya allow you to turn off filtering in the viewport.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:33:51 am by LoTekK »

Offline LoTekK

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 215
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • LoTekK.com

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 06:14:45 pm
Vertex lighting ftw!
Haven't had a lot of time to devote to this, but I did up an interior wall tile, a new set of grass tiles (though I haven't touched the transition tiles yet), textured the table, made some quick WIP variations for the brick wall (for window and door) and added a welcome mat and a temporary painting (I cheated on that one and just resized a mona lisa picture and pixelled in a frame plus shadow). The main time eater was doing up the vertex lighting which, as you'll see, is a huge added value.



Trees are still obviously untextured.

Click for a shot without vertex lighting

Offline Turbo

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 413
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • less than meets the eye
    • View Profile
    • Pixeljoint TurboAccount

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #10 on: June 07, 2007, 01:03:56 am
Lowpoly is fun *:) The models and textures are nice and interesting. May I suggest that you really push contrast hard, to see if pixel art techniques on small 2d pieces translate to 3d. Every texture you have could have this applied, from highlights on the characters to the brick and grass textures. By refering to contrast, i'd like to underline hue shift use (not ignoring the other constrast enhancing techniques).

Good luck with the game :)


* the pixel art of 3d modelling.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 01:11:10 am by Turbo »

Offline poingo

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • :B
    • View Profile

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #11 on: June 07, 2007, 02:58:47 am
I realise that the textures are pixeled, but I meant that the 3D models aren't of course. Besides, whenever somebody else posts something that is 3D, it seems like he/her gets flamed for it, and everyone says that it isn't "real" pixel art.  I followed suit, and I was wrong, so forgive me. 
When I said they look like runescape, I was not implying that you ripped graphics, I was implying that they looked similar.  As in, they both have low poly-counts, whatever that means.  :crazy: I really have no idea about anything 3D, so forgive my stupid comments.  The reason the grass hurt my eyes was the brightness.  So, before you judge me, just read my sig, because it really is true.  ;)
The above post may not be helpful at all, as the author usually has no idea what he is talking about.

Offline .TakaM

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1178
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • Fetch Quest

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #12 on: June 07, 2007, 03:20:12 am
you mentioned earlier the player would only be able to rotate the camera a bit, I think you might want to take advantage of this and make your trees look a lot cooler, I know they're currently not finished, so hopefully changing them won't be too much of a hassle :P

for the lack of a better term, it's a technique I like to call "paper-stacking", similar to paper-dolling in some ways, but it can work in 2d and 3d.
best explained by just looking at a tree from heroes of mana:

they look really cool, especially when you rotate the camera
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 03:30:36 am by .TakaM »
Life without knowledge is death in disguise

Offline LoTekK

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 215
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
    • LoTekK.com

Re: Some ongoing DS stuff (lots of pics)

Reply #13 on: June 07, 2007, 11:52:17 pm
Turbo - it certainly is; I love working around the ridiculous restrictions inherent to the work. :) So far I've had mixed success with pushing the contrast, as the textures tend to get a bit harsh on the eyes. Still playing around to find a good balance, though. So far just about all the textures so far have incorporated hue shifting to varying degrees, but for the most part I've had to reduce the saturation on the finals in order for the vertex lighting to have any discernable effect on the color (eg, the blue shadows and warm sunlit areas).

Stealth - no worries. To be honest I was initially a bit unsure of whether to post this here, so I ended up clearing it with ptoing first, though I was warned that it may not receive a very warm welcome. :)

TakaM - thanks a million for that screenshot. The trees in the previous shots were built with my mindset still in the "workable silhouette from all angles" mode, and your post has kicked me in the face and woken me up. I've played a bit with stacking and staggering a few non-planar quads on the same tree trunk, and the results have been very promising. The following shot is with a placeholder foliage texture (I just wanted to play with the alpha to see how everything would look, so it's rather indistinct right now). I'll play with the foliage and see what I can come up with.



Here's a shot of the trees with circles for foliage to show the structure (varying colors are being handled by vertex lighting):
circle trees!