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Messages - Sqorgar
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31
Pixel Art / Re: Isometric characters (wip)
« on: September 27, 2006, 12:27:45 am »
I don't know if you're getting the point the others are trying to make about your style. It's a good and valid style, but the NES is not capable of the colors you're choosing. It can only do 4 colors per sprite, including transparency, so if you want your graphics to look like "good NES" quality, you'd have to reduce to those limitations.
I want my work to have the feel of NES sprites, but not actually be NES sprites. To me, that comes from dark outlines and no shading/AA, not from the limited size and palette restrictions. I feel that I could draw a large 64x64 pixel sprite with two dozen colors and still feel at home placed side by side with Mega Man or something.

You mentioned Earthbound, which is actually a really good example of what I'm aiming for. I've got a strategy guide for it (and stuff like Pokemon, Mario and Luigi, and Zelda 4) that I have graphically memorized back to front. Earthbound's style is not particularly indicative of the average SNES style at the time (and indeed, when it was released, magazines were saying it looked like a NES game). When I think of SNES graphics, I usually think of overly shaded characters against really shaded backgrounds, creating a sort of blurry look to the game compared to the exceptionally clean look of NES games - but that style has existed since then. I wasn't using NES graphics in a literal sense, but in a figurative stylistic sense.

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If anything it looks more like amateur Gensis quality graphics.
Well, it's no James Pond :)

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Now for my own input, I think you'd be better off with a much higher contrast in your colors. The darker red on the red jumpsuit is way too close to the lighter red to serve much purpose. In fact, I'm concerned it wouldn't even be visible at the pixel's native resolution. Same goes for the two shades of grey on the same guy's shoes. It's a detectable difference at 3x, but no competent artist would do that even on SNES where color wasting is more affordable.
Oh, we're insinuating I'm imcompetent now? Man, when the kid gloves come off here... :)

The color difference is NOT visible at native resolutions, which is precisely the point. It's noticable, but not very. It still looks flat shaded, but is most definitely softer. Of course, pure red has this neon glow to it that makes any shading look like a completely different color, so I don't use that color usually except for glowing eyes and stuff that needs absolutely to stand out. Don't ask me why the base is wearing a red jumpsuit. It was a poor choice. The other two characters are also not polished yet and presented her as examples of how I'd use the base. They are all works in progress (which it says in the title, unless "wip" means something different than I thought it did), though my shading style is still rather unobtrusive. Jacket guy's back arm needs to be darkened a little, and the shading on the zombie's gray shirt is far too light, but other than that, most of the problems come from the base's outline, and especially feet.

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...You might study the graphics of Cave Story.
I will, of course, check it out and I thank you for pointing me towards it.

32
Pixel Art / Re: Isometric characters (wip)
« on: September 26, 2006, 11:06:48 pm »
These look more like bad SNES sprites than good NES sprites.  The real challenge and beauty of NES sprites is the color limitation, not just the designs that emerged as symptoms of those limitations.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. It's just a preference, but one I feel rather strongly towards. While I've certainly had plenty of people trash it and consider it too simple to require talent, it's my style and it's exactly where I want it to be.

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Your characters all seem to be a little annoyed and looking off to the right.
The annoyed look is a stylistic concern inherant in my work going way back. It's hard to explain but my style really came together for the first time when I did the T-eyes.

As for the looking off to the right thing, yeah, I agree completely. I don't think it hurts too much, as my tests didn't look too bad. They were still looking in the next square over, just not at the direct center. Of course, if you have any suggestions on how to afix their icy gaze more southeasterly, by all means, it could only improve the base.

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Basically, you have faithful lo-fi designs, but they lack the charm and sophistication that inspired you to work with lo-fi designs in the first place.  Strip these guys down to a 4 color palette, or else go ahead and shade them sensibly with discernible tones.  Currently you are standing in the middle of these two options, with nothing to justify it as a stylistic choice rather than a lack of judgment/care.
Hmm... that's a bit overly harsh in my opinion. Charm and sophistication are, of course, a subjective thing, but I like to think I do okay. My artwork has literally gone head to head with Mega Man and Final Fantasy sprites in the court of public opinion, and I honestly think that there will be some people who remember the characters and artwork I created with the same fondness and respect. I don't see myself as standing in the middle of two options because it's not either or - it's not even a linear path between them. I've selected a point I'm comfortable with and that I personally find to be attractive. I'm not half assing anything and I assure you that I care VERY much about my pixel art. The public record is fairly clear on that point as well.

Quote from: Helm
I'm sorry but I'll have to go with Adam on this one. You seem to have a very solidified view on how you're supposed to work, then why ask for critique?
It looks good to me, but it's not perfect. I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to bases because you get one just perfect and it will do miracles. Each base I make is literally the work of hundreds of hours and typically years of on and off again effort. It probably seems a little silly to some of you who can pound out the most amazing work in a few hours, but I'm not an artist and this stuff doesn't come naturally to me. I posted this because it still seems off to me - mainly the feet. That right foot looks like he stepped into a tiny boat. I think I can do something more with that back arm/hand, and I'm wondering if maybe I could move the head up a little bit to give him more of a neck. These things will take hours of trial and error to get just right precisely because I'm not an artistic type of guy. It was my hope that I could post it here and have the artistic type of guys take a look at it - what could take a hundred A or B iterations for me might be stupidly obvious to somebody else here. I guess I'm just trying to save myself some work... is that so wrong? :)

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Either go with NES limitations (limitations are good, they breed innovation!) or if you use shading, use it to its' full advantage.
I know this is hard to accept, but I'm really quite happy with my mish-mash of styles. I feel that, sorry to borrow from earlier, charm and sophistication comes from within. It's something you instill into a piece, not through technique so much as through the personality of your choices. My choices have placed my work apparently close enough to two extremes to be comparable to both but belongs to neither. I think there is value and beauty in this place, and in many ways, it makes my work stand out from other pixel artists and even makes it more accessable to non-artists. For some reason, other artists (not just pixel artists) take this really elitist stance with my style/work, but most non-artists actually tend to like it quite a bit. It's put me in their really weird position, because while I might admire these other artists, I don't actually want to be like them.

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And yes, resizing down x3 and separating 3 palettes/sprites is just too much time to spend I could be spending on what I feel would be a useful edit.
I didn't mean to be snarky. I really was apologizing, and in the future I'll be more considerate in the format that I post in. It's just that they way you phrased it seemed humorous to me. :)

I liked your edit, though he's still got boat-feet.

33
Pixel Art / Re: Isometric characters (wip)
« on: September 26, 2006, 06:39:56 pm »
I was about to download and edit your sprites but then I realized you had prezoomed them, and that they're all one file, hence one palette. These things make it more difficult to edit than I can be bothered to deal with right now, so I guess I'll have to just tell you what I see:
I apologize. I'll be sure to take your laziness into account with my next posting. :)

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I think the feet are nice. You're wasting shades by making them too close to each other. Shadows too soft, no highlights. No AA, but that might be a stylistic thing.
I don't palettize since I work off a base palette and with the exception of shading colors (10%-30% darker) don't tend to move outside it much.  As for the other stuff, I have a pretty well known style that I like to keep within. I do employ some of those fancy tricks like shading and AA, but I use it so infrequently that to advertise it obviously would mean that I'd have to use it everywhere to be consistant. So I try to keep the shadows barely perceptable and use AA only for internal colors and never for the outline - though nearly invisible, they are still effectively softening and deepening the images to my satisfaction.

Quote from: Indigo
in my personal oppinion quality should not be sacrificed at the expense of style.
Well, it's more like quality being sacrificed because of talent :) But I do have to say that I wouldn't do pixel art if I couldn't do it in this style. Though I absolutely respect the technical talents of the pixel artists on this board, the heavily aliased and shaded stuff isn't really my cup of tea. My inspiration really comes from NES games. SNES and up, sprites just stopped being as charming to me. I want my work to look like really damned good NES graphics. I like the physicality of it - that you can tell where the sprites stop and start, and how they have big heads so you can see their facial expressions rather than tiny little aliased brown pixels that are supposed to be eyes. The fancy stuff feels more artistic, but it doesn't always feel alive to me like the NES style... not to crack on anybody else's style. It's just a personal preference, and one of the cool things about pixel art that a lot of people don't appreciate is that there can be lots of different styles and tastes. If I had a nickle every time someone said pixel art was too limited to allow differences, I'd be a VERY rich man (I'm not kidding either, sadly).

There are times when I wish my style wasn't quite so limited - I mean, you'd think that black outlines and solid fill colors would be easy, but man wouldn't it be nice to be able to use that fancy stuff once in a while. Still, I can't sacrifice quality and style at the expense of making my life a little easier, right? :)

Quote from: miascugh
Nice to see you're still alive Sq..orgar
Shhh... I'm incognito. I stopped posting to Pixelation some time ago because there were a couple stalkers who were harassing me and using Pixelation as a way to do it. I don't know if they are still here, but I'd very much like to continue posting here. I've missed Pixelation so much, and it just sucks how only one or two people can really make me hate it as much as I did.

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So this is for a game? Just for fun?
I've been trying to get a perfect isometric base down for... well, literally years. Partly it has been my own abilities keeping me back, and partly my preferred style of graphics (I think there's a reason you don't see many isometric games on the NES that don't involve snakes or marbles). But I have ALWAYS wanted to do something isometric. I'm absolutely infatuated with the perspective dating all the way back to some old BW MacPaint images I saw when I was a kid. It just has this feeling of toys on a playset, like LEGOs I guess (which I guess is another huge inspiration in my style). I mean, if you take an overhead game like a roguelike and then make it isometric, it suddenly feels so much more physical - like things have volume and depth, but it's not like 3D where there is diminishing perspectives or or polygon models which aren't nearly as alive as pixel people. Stuff like Syndicate, Tactics Ogre, X-Com, Spindizzy, Ultima 8... man, I could stare at screenshots of those games forever..

Quote from: Gil
The design and line art are, as always, impeccable. The colours are fine too, but your shading ramps leave much to desire. The yellow of the jacket and the darker yellow shade are spot on, try to get the same contrast on the other shades. Also, the red is borderline too saturated perhaps.
That right foot is driving me crazy, as far as the line art goes. I don't like obvious shading and only use high contrasting shades for details rather than actual... you know... shading :) The red is just a stand in color - nobody I actually make with the base is going to have a neon red "speed suit" on. I draw my pixel art against a rather dark background so my colors tend to be rather bright to compensate sometimes.

34
Pixel Art / Isometric characters (wip)
« on: September 26, 2006, 06:17:23 am »


A general critique would be nice, but what I really need pointers on are the feet. The damned feet...

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