AuthorTopic: "Betelgeuse" TD shooter (NES restrictions)  (Read 19997 times)

Offline winged doom

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"Betelgeuse" TD shooter (NES restrictions)

on: September 15, 2013, 01:54:39 pm
"BETELGEUSE" is game I'm working on at this moment. The progress of development you can check on TIGsource and FB.

Also, I want to run this project on NES. And it would be really cool to release this on cartridges, I dream about it.
ITT I'll post all the graphics for NES version of game - for criticism and feedback.




Original post:



Bored from 5734L3R's/J2H development, so I'm drawing something completely different from time to time - to relax and distract.
I used a horrible and inconvenient palette from 5734L3R's NES mockup. For some unexplainable reasons I really like this palette and not going to change it :D I plan to follow NES canons (8x8 tiles\metasprites\3colors+bckgr black), but sometimes maybe will do extra works without color restrictions.

Totally inspired by "Robotz" from Atari ST and this great work by Heavy Stylus. You can blame that I make ripoff/demake and you'll be right.
 
:P
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 04:45:31 am by winged doom »

Offline mitchell547

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 12:11:27 pm
Wow, nice! It's looks like J2H and Stealer at the same time, J2H's view(perspective) and Stealer's setting.
I want to see more mockups like this!

Offline rafal345

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 08:32:58 pm
New game or just some sketches?

Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 10:52:28 pm
Why do the sprites and many bg tiles need to share 3 colours? Make those sprites pop a bit more.

Otherwise no complaints.

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Decroded

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 02:19:19 am
Cool flickering lights turning on when he opens the door in your signature animation.
You wanna add that into the thread?

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 06:41:21 am
New game or just some sketches?

Just sketches and I have game prototype for animation/tiles testing. =)

Why do the sprites and many bg tiles need to share 3 colours? Make those sprites pop a bit more.

Otherwise no complaints.


Like that?

I still have two unused colors from nes palette and going to use them to draw out dudes from bg tiles. Also, since I use metasprites, it gives me another possibility to maneuver with contrast, have no idea how it works, but I'll try to use it.

You wanna add that into the thread?

Yes, when I'll expand it to a larger format.



Dude animations, wip:



Also, i have to make diagonal directions and death animation -___-

Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 07:12:24 am
What do you mean by metasprites? You mean layering a bunch of sprites together.

And no, I do not mean "like that" I mean giving the sprites more contrasting colours altogether, like yellow for example (might be extreme and NES has no nice yellows to begin with). But something that will shift them away from the background in both value and hue.

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 03:19:06 pm
What do you mean by metasprites? You mean layering a bunch of sprites together.

Yes, like in Mega Man.



UPD:





Still not readable, I know -__-
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 11:09:48 am by winged doom »

Offline JinnDEvil

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 09:07:39 pm
I second ptoing. Some yellows would really make those sprites pop out!

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 03:02:55 pm
I second ptoing. Some yellows would really make those sprites pop out!

Yes, you right guys, I must try it.


Update, added a pink color to palette (and still have one not yet chosen colors in reserve):



Main menu, used font from Synergy Megademo (Atari ST):



Haha, I just noticed that did wrong format. It should be 256x240, not 320x240. And it's temporary variant of font, I'll draw my own then change name of game.

First enemy, wip:



Animation walk to north and south is terrible, but in game it's a insensibly  :blind:

Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 03:13:41 pm
NTSC NES is more like 256x224 pixels afaik.

Also, which palette do you use?

This one is very accurate it seems. If you want NTSC palette that is. I dunno about the PAL one, if there is a similarly accurate one around.
http://bisqwit.iki.fi/utils/nespalette.php

Do you plan this to get made for an actual NES, or just the look?

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 03:46:16 pm
NTSC NES is more like 256x224 pixels afaik.

Also, which palette do you use?

This one is very accurate it seems. If you want NTSC palette that is. I dunno about the PAL one, if there is a similarly accurate one around.
http://bisqwit.iki.fi/utils/nespalette.php

I used "NTSC Palette with both Blue and Green Emphasized":



Found it in this thread. Now I understand that it was a mistake, just missed that it's not RGB colors, haha. Perhaps I should redraw all using a default palette.

Quote
Do you plan this to get made for an actual NES, or just the look?

Not sure that everything will turn out some way, but it would be great to make it on NES and release on cartridges.  :) Currently I'm using a game prototype maded in GameMaker to decide with gameplay, according to idea it will be a mix of Metroid and Gauntlet.

Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 04:03:32 pm
That palette you linked is totally off, don't use it. Use the one from that site I linked.
NTSC palettes in which the 4 rows (not counting the blacks/whites and greys) have largely differing lumas within rows are inaccurate.



Use the top one there. It seems to be the most accurate one arround. You can change the saturation/brightness and such on it if you want (since people can do it on TVs as well), but it is a solid baseline.

What you have atm would be VERY hard to port onto NES with it still looking like that.
You are breaking quite a lot of the restrictions. If you have specific questions let me know.

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline kriss

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 04:14:06 pm
No offense but what is the meaning of the nes restriction palette? juste for fun ?

your work is amazing like stealers !

Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #14 on: September 24, 2013, 04:19:57 pm
What do you mean "the meaning"? He wants to make something with NES (Nintendo Entertainment System) restrictions, and as such should use the most accurate version of the palette we know. This is tricky with some old computers and consoles which do not handle their palettes using an RGB bitdepth model.

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline kriss

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 04:34:43 pm
For me (is why i ask him his reasons ^^), when you use some restriction, it's because you want to improve but it's often because you want to use a system with restriction itself.
According to his skill and i doubt he'll make a game for nes, it seams he use this palette just for fun.
I posted my question in case there is another reason behind this ^^

I just have difficulty to restrain myself to use colors, it's why i'm always curious about it  :)

Offline Carnivac

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #16 on: September 24, 2013, 05:20:07 pm
According to his skill and i doubt he'll make a game for nes, it seams he use this palette just for fun.
I posted my question in case there is another reason behind this ^^

Not sure that everything will turn out some way, but it would be great to make it on NES and release on cartridges.  :)

So yeah if Winged Doom is serious about wanting to put it on a real NES someday it'd be a good idea to learn about the limitations early on and design it around them so it'll be a lot simpler to get them working as intended on an actual NES when the time comes.  The whole thing with having to allocate various background and sprite palettes makes things a whole lot more difficult but actually quite rewarding in some ways too as a good challenge should be.
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Offline kriss

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #17 on: September 24, 2013, 08:01:45 pm
sorry i didn't saw the part of discussion before i posted :-[

Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #18 on: September 24, 2013, 08:02:54 pm
NTSC NES is more like 256x224 pixels afaik.
I'd aim for 256x240. Some TVs used to hide the edges, though. Here's a fun article: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Overscan
I program NES games. Thus, I'm the unofficial forum dealer of too much information about the NES.

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 02:10:32 pm
Use the top one there. It seems to be the most accurate one arround. You can change the saturation/brightness and such on it if you want (since people can do it on TVs as well), but it is a solid baseline.
I rework mockup with this palette:



It's wip, now it's too dark and "underwater". Still need to work on colors of midtone and shadows, so color configuration can change.

Quote
What you have atm would be VERY hard to port onto NES with it still looking like that.
I want to go a classic way, as if development was carried out in 80s for the original console, without any modern tricks. So at first I'll focus on simplest configuration of cartridge - NROM-256/ PRG ROM 32 kb for code + 8 kb for graphics.

Quote
You are breaking quite a lot of the restrictions.
Can you tell more about that? On example of my mockap?

According to his skill and i doubt he'll make a game for nes, it seams he use this palette just for fun.
I posted my question in case there is another reason behind this ^^
You right, man, my skills not so good and I doing it for fun.
Anyway, this is very interesting. As a child, I dreamed of making games for NES, so now I realize my dream  :)

So yeah if Winged Doom is serious about wanting to put it on a real NES someday it'd be a good idea to learn about the limitations early on and design it around them so it'll be a lot simpler to get them working as intended on an actual NES when the time comes.  The whole thing with having to allocate various background and sprite palettes makes things a whole lot more difficult but actually quite rewarding in some ways too as a good challenge should be.

Well, I'm learn it. And being honest have no idea what I'm doing wrong or right at this moment.
Offtop: glad to know that you resumed the development of "Cosmic Prison Commando"   ;)

NTSC NES is more like 256x224 pixels afaik.
I'd aim for 256x240. Some TVs used to hide the edges, though. Here's a fun article: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Overscan

Oh, hey! It is your article I read in that thread! I have same question as to ptoing - what is wrong in my mockup (don't say "everything", please))) and there will be difficulties with realization on NES?
Don't want to complicate work of NES-programmer and scaring his any difficulties, that I can fix myself  ;D



So, progress of work. Decided to replace a couple of colors, because I used the same palette for Flame Badge graphics. Also, I was annoying by abundance of lilac color  :crazy:



In some rooms I'll use a different color scheme to create desired mood:



Following advice of ptoing, I tried to change all this colors using this palette:



At this moment trying to pick colors for midtones and shadows, that picture stayed solid and well-read:



+few test cases for color sheme of dude to improve his readability:


Offline Carnivac

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 05:22:35 pm
I think the new palette is working a lot better than the old.  In the old I didn't like that blue in the tiles that seemed to burn out of the grey too much (I dunno if what I said made sense), now it seems more natural and somehow more atmospheric.

And as for the six small test shots of the dude's readibility I think either of the middle two work best.  At his size he does need to pop out more like he's doing there. 

And thanks about C.P.C. :)  I am still working on it in little bits (busy with a paid freelance project at moment) and trying to do a whole new tileset and also trying to update the engine from Game Maker 8.1 to Game Maker: Studio which is NOT easy (they've changed or removed various things I used in the game code) as GM:S is the one they update now and has the multi-platform support if you buy the modules and such.

I'm looking forward to giving this game a go when it's a playable thing.  I likes retro stuff with small, well defined sprites & tiles and tons of style which this has.   ;D
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Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #21 on: September 28, 2013, 12:17:33 am

Oh, hey! It is your article I read in that thread! I have same question as to ptoing - what is wrong in my mockup (don't say "everything", please))) and there will be difficulties with realization on NES?
I hate to be a killjoy, but If you're serious about hitting NES restrictions you will likely have to redo a lot.

Backgrounds get one color you can use anywhere. Then, you get four sets of three colors. No 16x16 pixel region may use more than the 3 colors from  any one set, plus that one color you can use anywhere.
Here is a screenshot of Super Mario Bros.:

Here are the sets of colors that screenshot uses for the background:

The blue at the top is the color that can be used across all the sets.
This is a breakdown of how the colors are used:

The blue grid breaks the image into 16x16 pixel areas. (Though the image is 2x for clarity). I pasted the number of each palette in the regions that use it. (I didn't do repeats, though. It's clear all the ? blocks use palette 4, so I only marked one of them.) Note that any area that is entirely blue does not have a number. This is because a solid blue area could use ANY of the four palettes, since that color can be used in any of them.

Now, here is a 32x32 portion of your mockup with a 16x16 grid (again, 2x for clarity):

I noted the colors used by each 16x16 region. You're using 5 to 6 colors in each region!
You only get set of 3 colors in each 16x16 pixel region + the universal one on NES. I know you didn't want to hear it, but there are barely any places at all in the mockup that use that few colors in a 16x16 pixel region.

Edit: Also, I'm confused, it seems like there are two versions of this. One that tries to be NES restricted, and one that doesn't. The one I used above has more colors than another one posted, but both are still over the limits.

To keep things clear, pick your sets of colors and post those as well. Then it's much easier for me (and everyone else) to see what your intended sets are supposed to be, and when you're going over. (Otherwise, I have to guess. And sometimes people use a different universal color than I expect and I guess wrong)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 01:19:15 am by Kasumi »
I program NES games. Thus, I'm the unofficial forum dealer of too much information about the NES.

Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 11:30:56 pm
So I fudged this down to 4 palettes and the proper tile limits with the 2x2 tiles for one palette.
Still is a hilarious 614 8x8 tiles though :(


There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 03:08:43 pm
I think the new palette is working a lot better than the old.  In the old I didn't like that blue in the tiles that seemed to burn out of the grey too much (I dunno if what I said made sense), now it seems more natural and somehow more atmospheric.

Yes, but I still don't like how I reworked colors. Previous version:



..is much better than version with right colors:



Quote
And thanks about C.P.C. :)  I am still working on it in little bits (busy with a paid freelance project at moment) and trying to do a whole new tileset and also trying to update the engine from Game Maker 8.1 to Game Maker: Studio which is NOT easy (they've changed or removed various things I used in the game code) as GM:S is the one they update now and has the multi-platform support if you buy the modules and such.

I'm looking forward to giving this game a go when it's a playable thing.  I likes retro stuff with small, well defined sprites & tiles and tons of style which this has.   ;D

I more like 8.0 version, but yes, support of multi-platform is rules! ;D 

So I fudged this down to 4 palettes and the proper tile limits with the 2x2 tiles for one palette.
Still is a hilarious 614 8x8 tiles though :(



Oh, cool! Thank your for edit, ptoing, it's more NES-authentic.  :y: And sorry too, I should prepare mockup, before asking this question.

Now it's much cleared up for me. No any layers for tiles, ok.
And too much green and blue for my taste. Before I undertake NES restrictions, have to deal with colors. It will more easier now with your edit, thanx again!   :)

Edit: Also, I'm confused, it seems like there are two versions of this. One that tries to be NES restricted, and one that doesn't. The one I used above has more colors than another one posted, but both are still over the limits.

Yes, my fault, as I say to ptoing, sorry. ^__^ 

Quote
To keep things clear, pick your sets of colors and post those as well. Then it's much easier for me (and everyone else) to see what your intended sets are supposed to be, and when you're going over. (Otherwise, I have to guess. And sometimes people use a different universal color than I expect and I guess wrong)

Thanks for the reply! I'll rework mockup (or will rework ptoing's edit, haha) according that you wrote and post here with color sets, as on your example.  ;)



Drew hud and changed animation of dude, made he more "dwarfy" in diagonal directions - for more NES-authenticity:



Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 03:57:23 pm
Also, if you wanna make this really NES restricted, or perhaps get a coder to make it for the NES sometime, you should keep the tile limit into account. If you make it single screen you could have 256 tiles per screen I guess. But of course the HUD will take up tiles as well/or sprites.

Oh also, something I just noticed. The logo reads more like ROBOCZ than ROBOTZ.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:59:23 pm by ptoing »

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 04:33:40 pm
Also, if you wanna make this really NES restricted, or perhaps get a coder to make it for the NES sometime, you should keep the tile limit into account. If you make it single screen you could have 256 tiles per screen I guess. But of course the HUD will take up tiles as well/or sprites.

I see. And +256 blocks of 8x8 sprites (or 128 of 8x16), right?

Quote
Oh also, something I just noticed. The logo reads more like ROBOCZ than ROBOTZ.

All claims to artists of Synergy.  :D Title of game will be another, this is a temporary name and temporary logo.

Offline ptoing

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 05:25:14 pm
Yeah, I think so. That's what can be in memory at the same time unless you got a cart that has extra memory, I guess. If you made your own hardware you could do a lot of things :P

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline r1k

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 10:31:26 pm
could someone clarify, are you allowed 256 tiles for background, plus another 256 tiles for sprites?  I thought it was 256 total, but when I checked the tilemap for zeldas overworld in an emulator I got this, which has 512 total tiles, including those used to make sprites.

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 11:06:22 pm
From what I know you can have 256 for each. There are some carts I think which allow for more at the same time, but 256 is standard.

There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #29 on: October 02, 2013, 03:44:29 am
Yes, you get 512 tiles total. You can use half for sprites, half for background tiles. You can use the same set of 256 for both sprites and tiles. You can use all 512 for sprites using 8x16 mode, just one half (so 256) for tiles... Those are all the basic ones. But I'm not sure how important any of that is.
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 08:48:39 pm
Yes, you get 512 tiles total. You can use half for sprites, half for background tiles. You can use the same set of 256 for both sprites and tiles. You can use all 512 for sprites using 8x16 mode, just one half (so 256) for tiles... Those are all the basic ones. But I'm not sure how important any of that is.

This is important, more tiles - more interesting decisions I can use in level design.
Sorry that didn't make promised mockup, too much work atm and I should finish current game.

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #31 on: November 02, 2013, 05:47:36 pm
Still in process, some gameplay things and decorations:



Trying new nes colors (no any other restrictions):



Looks like a vomit, but maybe as an alternative color sheme.

+



+Short animation just for fun:



And enemies:



It's a bit Advance Wars-esque, because this is what I aspire to - all the objects must be compact and neat.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:51:03 pm by winged doom »

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #32 on: November 03, 2013, 06:51:31 pm
Kasumi, ptoing, I did it!  ;D



Level mockup with all NES restrictions - 3 colors per 16x16 tile (+black). But now I ask myself - what to do with the game objects over the tiles? Can I use other 3 colors palettes for them?
I mean this:




« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 10:06:03 pm by winged doom »

Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #33 on: November 04, 2013, 02:09:17 am
Quote
Level mockup with all NES restrictions - 3 colors per 16x16 tile (+black)
Well... not entirely, if this is supposed to be only tiles, you're still using too many colors in some regions. Here are some issues.

The HUD also breaks lots and lots of rules assuming you haven't intended to use sprites there. Like I said in an earlier post, I recommend you post the actual palettes you've chosen with the image so it's easier for everyone to check this stuff. Here are my guesses as to your intended background palettes:

If this is correct, it would mean any time you've used the reddish-purple or pink can't work among other things.

No, you can't do what you posted with the sprite, at least not in the way you posted. You don't get 3 colors+black (or whatever the universal color is) for each sprite. You get 3 colors (and transparent). If you choose black for one of those colors, you only get two others (and transparent).

That sprite is black, gray, purple, and light blue which is 4 colors. You'd need two sprite palettes and sprite overlaying to do that. It'd work like this (The two teals in the second palette are unused):

But sprite overlays should be used VERY sparingly, because of the eight sprite per scanline limitation.

The way to think about it is that the sprites are a layer drawn above the background. So that they can be drawn on top of the background without obscuring entire 8x8 pixel sections of it, each sprite palette has one color always reserved for transparency leaving the three others.

But sprites and backgrounds do not have to share palettes nor tiles.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 02:45:44 am by Kasumi »
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #34 on: November 04, 2013, 07:48:02 pm
Thank you for answer!

Quote
The HUD also breaks lots and lots of rules assuming you haven't intended to use sprites there. Like I said in an earlier post, I recommend you post the actual palettes you've chosen with the image so it's easier for everyone to check this stuff. Here are my guesses as to your intended background palettes:

So, here is the actual palettes for tiles:



(Through this I found a new errors with colors)

...And actual palettes for HUD:



Now I reworked it - fixed some colors and alighned all 3 color's elements with grid.

Quote
But sprite overlays should be used VERY sparingly, because of the eight sprite per scanline limitation.

Allright, now only 3 colors on the character/game object, not a great loss  :)



And question due to this - can I use different 3 color palettes for various animations/frames of one object? Like this tank on the bottom row of last picture. When tank makes a shot, it used the other colors.



And as the sum of all stuff:



Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #35 on: November 04, 2013, 08:57:08 pm
Quote
So, here is the actual palettes for tiles:
Okay, I'm going to start to sound super picky, but I meant just the colors of the four sets like I did for SMB.

The reason I am SO persistent about this is that you are not only limited to 1 set of 3 + a universal color per 16x16 region. You are also limited to just 4 sets.

So here are 4 sets already:

Meaning that absolutely everything that doesn't use those 4 sets can't work. Like all these:

One thing I might recommend is condensing the grays on any tile that doesn't use both. The top left region in my four sets image and the top left region in my can't work image use the same palette except the gray.
Quote
And question due to this - can I use different 3 color palettes for various animations/frames of one object? Like this tank on the bottom row of last picture. When tank makes a shot, it used the other colors.
Yes, you can do this.
Edit: Totally forgot to check the HUD. It's using even more palette sets than even the ones in the can't work image, and the numbers/minimap aren't tile aligned. It's technically possible to do things not tile aligned, but uh... I wouldn't.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 09:04:47 pm by Kasumi »
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #36 on: November 04, 2013, 09:23:42 pm
I specify, just in case - сan I use other 4 sets? For example from this picture:



or this:



Any "features" that I maybe could miss on your sets?

Quote
It's technically possible to do things not tile aligned, but uh... I wouldn't.

I'll fix it myself than, it will be much easier, hehe.

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #37 on: November 04, 2013, 09:38:28 pm
I just picked a random 4 sets from your image. You can swap a set I've got in my "four sets" image and one from my "can't work" image. And then the one you've swapped in is fine, the one you've swapped out no longer is. :hehe: You can use whatever 4 sets you want (so long as they all share one color  ;D ), but there can be ONLY 4. Anything in the HUD that's tiles must ALSO use only those sets.

Quote
Any "features" that I maybe could miss on your sets?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. There aren't really ways to fight against these things, if that's what you mean. 1 universal color (you've chosen black), 4 sets of 3 colors. Each 16x16 region of tiles must use only 1 of those sets of 3 colors+the universal color.
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #38 on: December 11, 2013, 08:27:45 pm
Now with 4 color sets:


+objects\enemies:


all sets step by step:


current version\previous version (12 sets):

« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 09:52:58 pm by winged doom »

Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #39 on: December 12, 2013, 06:53:41 am
Seems like you've got it except perhaps for the HUD. Great work!
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #40 on: December 12, 2013, 11:11:13 pm
Seems like you've got it except perhaps for the HUD. Great work!

Thank you! =)



HUD! Not sure that I make it right :D
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 11:46:45 pm by winged doom »

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #41 on: December 13, 2013, 12:43:36 am
HUD means "Head Up Display"
The name implies that it's above your head.
It's called after the place where it should be positioned.
If you position it at the bottom of the screen, the readability will suffer a lot.
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #42 on: December 13, 2013, 07:32:07 am
Plenty of games where the HUD isn't at the top or it's spread over the screen. If the readability changes it's because of habit. And no it's not called "Head up display" because it's over your head, it's named after the HUDs in Jets. Where you have a transparent board of information right in front of you face so you don't have to look down at the instruments to see important information. "up" is implied therefore, as to not look down.



following the proper idea of a HUD would be something like this then:


If you look in the middle of the playing area and then look top and back, then bottom and back it will take you just the same amount of time to do it. And to be honest it doesn't bother me at all the HUD being down there, Kasumi probably just ment that it usually is top and have been in NES games, but it most definitely have some other reason, probably where it "collides" with less things.

Anyhow, Very nice job!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 07:39:41 am by coffee »

Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #43 on: December 13, 2013, 10:39:21 am
I just meant it wasn't arranged for 16x16 boundaries/standard tile boundaries, I take no issue with its positioning or appearance. It's fine at the bottom. That's where lots of games put it. (Super Mario Bros. 3, Gimmick, Kirby's Adventure, Panic Restaurant etc.)

Anyway, you're pretty much fine now, winged doom. You have more than 256 unique tiles, though. (I didn't check that before.) But only one more (you have 257), not including the HUD. You also have two different zeroes. ;)(One on the left of the tile edge, one on the right.)

Edit: Actually, you don't have more than 256. I checked the lazy man's way which ignores possible same tiles that share a palette.  :-[ The solid green tiles and solid gray tiles are the same (just using a different palette), and I'm sure there are other things like that. That said, I have no idea how many you have, because I don't have a good way to check for that stuff. If including the HUD (and the other numbers the HUD will require) you have less than 256, you're totally good. If the HUD pushes it over, you might want to make it not occupy the same lines as the main level. (Right now it's on the same row as what looks like a door from the main map.) There's a way to swap to another set of 256 tiles mid screen, (Kirby's Adventure does it), but it would affect everything on the row.

tl;dr, You're good.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 10:56:22 am by Kasumi »
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #44 on: December 27, 2013, 04:40:45 pm

 :crazy:

Actually, you don't have more than 256.

I have 216 (12x19) now:



+version without black

This tank on bottom of tileset can turn his turret (NS and WE), but I'm not sure how is easy/hard to realize it for NES game, so removed all turrets rotations.

Quote
I checked the lazy man's way which ignores possible same tiles that share a palette.

Maybe I should use 8x8 grid (now is 16x16, except gui stuff) for this tileset, it would greatly reduce amount of (same) tiles.

Quote
If the HUD pushes it over, you might want to make it not occupy the same lines as the main level. (Right now it's on the same row as what looks like a door from the main map.) There's a way to swap to another set of 256 tiles mid screen, (Kirby's Adventure does it), but it would affect everything on the row.

You mean this row?



Well, apparently I'll have to find another solution for HUD/south door, ok.



Trying test this tileset in Tiled Map Editor. If somebody have this program, you can try to build your map, here the source, just place tileset in same folder with map.

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #45 on: December 28, 2013, 07:44:09 am
I have 216 (12x19) now:
I'm not quite sure where this number comes from. If you're counting 16x16 pixel regions, the image is 12x18. But, that includes both sprites and background tiles. You're aware that you get 256 8x8 tiles for the background, then an additional 256 8x8 tiles for sprites, right? So having the two of them together in that image is throwing me off.

Either way, I was talking about 8x8 tiles and just the background. Ignoring palette swaps, you've got 267 unique 8x8 tiles in the background set. So if 11 of them aren't the same just with different palettes, you've got a problem.

NES is no fun. The color borders are 16x16, the tiles themselves are 8x8.
Quote
but I'm not sure how is easy/hard to realize it for NES game, so removed all turrets rotations.
Not really any harder than displaying it in the first place.
Quote
Well, apparently I'll have to find another solution for HUD/south door, ok.
Only if you have more than 256 8x8 tiles or want to scroll. I can't easily check that because of palette nonsense. Also take note: You need some more tiles to display things as you have them.

You have the left two. To display two next to each other like in the image, you'd need the right one. But you can probably lose the middle one.

You have 2 of whatever that bar represents. Use right tile. You lose 1 bar. Use left tile. Lose another. Blank tile. Etc.

Edit: Wow, my image palette got messed up. Update:

Marked in the top left is a color representing the tile used to display the bar.

The same for the other bars. If they deplete, you need tiles representing all the other states.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 07:50:37 am by Kasumi »
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #46 on: December 29, 2013, 10:13:28 pm
NES is no fun.

But I got fun when realized that miss everything that was written a few posts ago, time to read this thread again.

Tileset:



Is that right? (Sprites set I'll make later, with HUD feature that you posted in Update/Edit.)
It is not finished, but I post it now because is possible that next few days I'll be not able for pixels.

And tiles testing (with Tiled):


« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 11:43:32 pm by winged doom »

Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #47 on: December 30, 2013, 02:30:07 am
Yep, that tileset works. It's even full of duplicate tiles, so plenty of room for expansion. The HUD tiles might fit, and if not you can always swap in a new set in for the HUD after the level above it is rendered.

I don't imagine you'll be anywhere near the limit for sprites. Unlike background tiles, NES can flip sprite tiles horizontally and vertically. So if you've got a left facing tank in the set, you also have a right facing tank for free.  :crazy: The south facing tank with turret pointed south is just 5 tiles fully animated. 1 for the top of the non firing version of it, 1 for the top of the firing version. 2 for the the treads which are different between the non firing frames. 1 for the treads of the firing frame.

I think all the tanks you last posted is a hair over 50 tiles fully animated. You're probably barely above 100 for everything you last posted, but I wasn't too scientific about counting so don't quote me on that.
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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #48 on: December 30, 2013, 04:17:48 pm
It's even full of duplicate tiles, so plenty of room for expansion.

You're right. But then I need a good solution to arrange this tiles so that it will comfortable in level design. In this case current tileset is very good. Btw, a small change (that white block near computer):



to make laser beam started from the grid:



Quote
I don't imagine you'll be anywhere near the limit for sprites. Unlike background tiles, NES can flip sprite tiles horizontally and vertically. So if you've got a left facing tank in the set, you also have a right facing tank for free.  :crazy:

Haha, that's cool, so here it is:



I make a small revision, following your advice about sprites. Also, now items on the map and in the HUD are same.

Still WIP, now I have to make color conversion for bugs and doors.

Offline Kasumi

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #49 on: December 30, 2013, 05:30:08 pm
Some more duplicates removed in the sprite set.

You can flip the "longer" half of something that has an odd number of pixels, and overlap the two halfs by one pixel.

Since that HUD stuff is in the sprite set, remember about the eight sprites per scanline limitation.

Also, in the case that you do use sprites, you don't need two tiles in the spriteset for this bar:

Since sprites don't have to be aligned to any grid, you can just put multiples next to each other, whereas doing so with tiles would leave space between them. Having the extra tile in the sprite set does cut the number of sprites needed to display it on a horizontal line in half, though.

Basically, you have four choices for the HUD:
1. Keep it entirely in the backgroundset with the level.
2. Have the HUD entirely below the playfield, and use a separate set of background tiles for the HUD/playfield.
3. Use sprites, but make sure to never have more than 8 on a scanline if you don't want it to flicker.
4. A mix.

1. is a simplest choice. Keep in mind you can have many sets for different rooms or whatever, it's not like you're forced to use the same 256 tiles throughout your game. Yes, having the HUD as part of the background set would take up some space on every set, but it's not too limiting for the type of game this is looking like.

2. is cool, and you'd need the HUD entirely below the level if you wanted to scroll anyway.

3. is okay if you don't need to display a lot of information. But it looks like your game needs a lot of info on screen.

4. could be awesome with 2 or 1. You could keep the icons in the spriteset (coin, gun etc.), since they need to be there anyway. They'll be in the level as collectibles sometimes. You could keep other parts of the HUD there too. As long as you never have have more than 8 on a scanline, you're fine. I wouldn't do the numbers as sprites. You've got 8 on a line doing that right off the bat.
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Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #50 on: April 08, 2014, 01:36:51 pm
Trying new colors, previous version:



And current:



Used this colors.






« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 02:52:29 pm by winged doom »

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Atari ST Robotz"-like shooter, but with NES restrictions

Reply #51 on: May 12, 2014, 04:17:48 am
Reworking tileset :



And test with Tiled Map Editor:



Update of spriteset:



   

And set for main menu:



Test in Tiled Map Editor and main menu mockup:



Also, version that actually not with NES colors, but I like this much more than any other:


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Re: "Betelgeuse" TD shooter (NES restrictions)

Reply #52 on: December 16, 2014, 01:54:42 am
I had been meaning to critique this art for quite some time, you have some nice work!
Though, your tile optimization could use some work. I had some time, waiting for a commissioner to respond, so...

Assuming the use of meta-tiles (assigning four 8x8 tiles into a 16x16 unit), I have gone through your tiles, and crunched down the CHR bank as much as possible. There are a few questionable tiles (minimal pixel differences), but I elected to leaving them alone. Pruning them out would be the artists' choice when producing an actual NES game.



On the NES, you would now have room to fit your hud information.

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Re: "Betelgeuse" TD shooter (NES restrictions)

Reply #53 on: December 31, 2014, 08:52:07 pm
Looking very good so far!  Also when I saw the title I thought it meant Beetlegueuse or Beetlejuice x3

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Re: "Betelgeuse" TD shooter (NES restrictions)

Reply #54 on: January 01, 2015, 09:30:01 am
Hehe what does the "DOOM" powerup do?

I'm not that into NES graphics so I don't know is there any restriction on animation number of frames and timing?
Because your sprites are cool but I think the animation can be tweaked a bit to get rid of some of the flickery/twitching frames.
For example I love the little 4 leg mech but the legs go smoothly backward then instantly twitch back to the front.

I haven't read up but on closer inspection I'm not sure if its a mech or some alien creature.
Seems to have a mix of organic and mechanical forms.
I think it would probably benefit from some design decision to make it clearer what it is.
If its biomechanical then maybe use 2 separate colours to indicate that.

Offline winged doom

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Re: "Betelgeuse" TD shooter (NES restrictions)

Reply #55 on: January 02, 2015, 11:17:54 am
I had been meaning to critique this art for quite some time, you have some nice work!
Though, your tile optimization could use some work. I had some time, waiting for a commissioner to respond, so...

You reminded me about the dilemma which I could not decide when preparing resources for a test build - make tileset convenient for leveldesign or optimize it to free up more space for tiles. Now I try to find a compromise solution based on your work, big thank you for this!



Hehe what does the "DOOM" powerup do?

This thing blows up 5 enemies on the level.

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I'm not that into NES graphics so I don't know is there any restriction on animation number of frames and timing?
I know nothing about timing limits, but number of frames is limited by the size of tileset, which is used for current level. So I have 4 frames and one of which is used for the "idle" frame.

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Because your sprites are cool but I think the animation can be tweaked a bit to get rid of some of the flickery/twitching frames.
For example I love the little 4 leg mech but the legs go smoothly backward then instantly twitch back to the front.
Oh now I see it. The problem is in size of the "frame", it's 16x16 pixels and legs nowhere to swing, they rest on the edge of the frame.

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I haven't read up but on closer inspection I'm not sure if its a mech or some alien creature.
Seems to have a mix of organic and mechanical forms.
I think it would probably benefit from some design decision to make it clearer what it is.
If its biomechanical then maybe use 2 separate colours to indicate that.
Yes, it's hybrid, half organic, half mechanical. It's a good idea, I will have to try it, thank you!  :)

Offline Pinux

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Re: "Betelgeuse" TD shooter (NES restrictions)

Reply #56 on: January 04, 2015, 07:14:21 pm
I love Nes games there my favorite type to play looks good  :y: