AuthorTopic: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions  (Read 24670 times)

Offline goat

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Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

on: April 24, 2006, 09:26:49 am
For those of you who might be new/not know the drill, this is where we decide which game gets the next commercial critique spotlight.

Here some popular choices from last month to start us off (any new suggestions are welcome):

Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap
Demon's Crest
Yoshi's Island (thanks Xion Night)

Go nuts! The one with the most votes will be critiqued on the first of May
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 02:34:05 pm by goat »
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Offline .TakaM

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 09:30:33 am
my vote goes to M&Lss

edit-
I see everyone seems to be choosing minish cap because they like its graphics more. I guess I like MC's graphics more too, but I think we all know why and how most things were done in minish cap, mario&luigi has some stuff I'd like to see everyone discussing
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 12:37:04 pm by .TakaM »
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Offline Lick

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #2 on: April 24, 2006, 10:07:21 am
[Vote] Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap
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Offline God Slayer

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #3 on: April 24, 2006, 10:09:54 am
Mario.

Offline Filax_666

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #4 on: April 24, 2006, 10:18:53 am
Id like to see both MLSS and LOZ:TMC... but Ill vote for Zelda.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #5 on: April 24, 2006, 12:20:13 pm
Zelda without a doubt.  I personally thought the pixelwork in DC was kinda trite and simplistic, and mario and luigi is nice but not like minish cap
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #6 on: April 24, 2006, 12:27:14 pm
Zelda too here.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #7 on: April 24, 2006, 12:28:44 pm
Zelda.
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Offline Atooi

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 01:20:48 pm
All three games are incredible.

Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga is a superb advancement on the Mario art style.

Zelda: Minish Cap is also an amazing advancement on the brand in a more illustrated/Capcom style.

Demon's Crest is a wonderful example of a traditional Capcom style game which achieved a great atmosphere. The environments are rich, and the sprites are really solid.

My vote is for MLSS.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #9 on: April 24, 2006, 01:44:00 pm
I'll go for Mario & Luigi SS, because shamefully i've never actually played Minish Cap, and i did find the graphics of M&LSS very interesting and it would be cool to delve deeper.

Offline goat

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #10 on: April 24, 2006, 01:49:53 pm
Quote
I think we all know why and how most things were done in minish cap

I agree that a lot of us can easily dissect its techniques, but hey, that should make for an extensive and thorough critique the results of which would serve as a good primer to those of us new to vg pixeling or commercial critiques... I think part of the reason the Chaos Engine crit died so quickly (other than that we ran short on things to say) was that the techniques discussed, while fully deserving of attention, went over some people's heads.

But yeah, I think MLSS would be a happy medium because you're right, it's got things to attract all kinds of pixelers at all experience levels, IMO. Either one would be a little more accessible than the Chaos Engine, which should get more people into it this time around (which will make me very happy :p)


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Offline setz

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #11 on: April 24, 2006, 02:20:28 pm
I"m actually more impressed by Demon's Crest than the rest, overall, but when I think technique, it's not that great, it's just that it's put together so well as is, mario & luigi superstar saga and minish cap are both very unique in style, and really I can't think of which would be more interesting to learn about, I loved the graphic styles in both of them. I flipped a coin and it said Minish Cap :x

Offline vierbit

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #12 on: April 24, 2006, 04:54:58 pm
Hmm..
Im more fan of classic pixelart styles.
So my vote goes of course to Demons Crest.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #13 on: April 24, 2006, 05:56:29 pm
I vote for Minish Cap.

And, sorry to keep buggering about this, but could we see some Challenges to go along with it?  I think that would produce more talk about the style and techniques and such when examining things that do and do not work when trying to assimilate your work with a game's style.

Offline Esker

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #14 on: April 24, 2006, 06:11:01 pm
Demons Crest.

I'm really suprised that only 1 other person has voted it up to now.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #15 on: April 24, 2006, 07:59:17 pm
Crest, of course. I see nothing strictly amazing in MC or the Mario game, and I've played them both a lot. Crest has some excellent non-obvious tiling and colour choices. But I agree with goat that a more high-visibility fan-service critique might be good to get people in the commerical critique groove, as Chaos Engine obviously didn't do it for them.

Offline Darien

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #16 on: April 24, 2006, 08:44:22 pm
One of the reasons I chose Minish Cap is that it uses simple shading and flat colors to a good effect, which I think would be a very useful lesson to a lot of newer pixelers, as they generally go a little render crazy.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 08:46:34 pm by Darien »

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #17 on: April 24, 2006, 09:13:05 pm
Ooh, i checked out some screenshots of demons crest and it looks awesome (i've never heard of it before). I'm quite undecided now. Bleh.

Offline Esker

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #18 on: April 24, 2006, 10:54:02 pm
I wonder how many other people didn't bother looking at the screenshots of DC before voting...

Anyway. excuse me if any of the Mario or Zelda screenshots are wrong but it's what came up in google image

Mario





Zelda





DC





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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #19 on: April 24, 2006, 11:00:02 pm
Changing my vote to DC. It was a close internal race thingy, but I'm interested in figuring out some things about the games graphics.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 11:19:05 pm
I find all the choices relatively boring. Mario and Zelda use the same bare-minimal approach that has always been popular in both series. Demon's Crest seems to follow the classic darker style that was once a staple of Castlevania before it became too closely tied into anim influences.

My vote would go to Demon Crest. How come these are the only choices? I don't think I've ever taken part in a critique too heavily (though I've read what others have written). I like to sit and examine, though I usually don't take part in the "action" itself. I would love to go back to classics that I've always been curious about, such as Xenogears, Valkyrie Profile, even Stella Deus. However, these only use 2D sprites, the backgrounds are 3D or high detailed images (not pixelled by hand).

Uhm, Demon's Crest?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #21 on: April 24, 2006, 11:38:31 pm
id be glad to change my vote to DC, a game i liked playing, if somebody could explain to me what makes it something other than a slightly-above-average campcom title.

Mario i think can be minimalistic to a fault, but zelda achieves a really nice feeling while still appearing highly simplistic and i think that that is one of the most important things a person can strive for in pixelling.  I will say though, that if i could pick any game to talk about amazingly simple and beautiful work, id have to say Sword of Mana would take my vote.
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Offline Billeh

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #22 on: April 25, 2006, 12:08:02 am
DC gets my vote.
I'd be  curious to know what you all mean by a sligtly above average capcom title as well.

Offline goat

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #23 on: April 25, 2006, 12:19:55 am
For one thing, aside from the graphics simply being pretty, Demon's Crest exemplifies a lot of color choice, shading and dithering techniques that capitalize on the way a CRT TV displays pixels at that resolution. Playing it on a computer monitor does it absolutely no justice, just as displaying an AAed/seloutlined screenshot on a TV does it no justice. On a stylistic level it might be a little predictable compared to other Capcom platformers of the time, but from a pixel-technical point of view it is noticably superior.

I'm not really concerned about making a case to satisfy one person's opinion since it's up to the majority and I'm supposed to be impartial anyway :p

Quote
zelda achieves a really nice feeling while still appearing highly simplistic and i think that that is one of the most important things a person can strive for in pixelling.

On the other hand, pixel artists work within a medium that allows for pixel-perfect detail. In some cases, not taking advantage of pixel level detail is almost criminal. MC's simplicity is a point of style, and I fail to see how a specific style can be more "important in pixeling" than any general principle.


@Sonic: these aren't the only choices, it's totally open. If you have a better idea then by all means share it :p

Quote
Here some popular choices from last month to start us off (any new suggestions are welcome):
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 12:24:26 am by goat »
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Offline ndchristie

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #24 on: April 25, 2006, 12:31:35 am
the graphics clearly are better than mediocre, but i fail to see what is so astounding about them.  they look like what a lot of other games were doing around the same time (Castlevania: Dracula X for example, which was not much later, super castlevania 4, super ghouls and ghosts, etc), not to mention that other capcom games of the era, like breath of fire II or the street fighter series that was quickly rising in popularity.  im not saying that demons crest is bad, im saying i dont see why it would ever stand out

also, simplicity is important because in pixelling, it transcends style, size, and palette.
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #25 on: April 25, 2006, 12:40:15 am
Who said it had to stand out?  Can't game art just be expertly and competently made without receiving flak or criticism for not being overly original or stylized? 

The same argument you just placed on DC could be said of al the Mario and Zelda games.  It's just a matter of individaul taste I suppose.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #26 on: April 25, 2006, 12:45:13 am
imo, if it were expertly made, it would stand out, original or not.  im not picking on its style, im picking on how it doesnt seem to look any better than those other games.  perhaps im in the minority here, oh well.
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #27 on: April 25, 2006, 01:34:26 am
While I agree with most of what you're saying, Adarias, I don't think that should exclude us from doing a CC on it.  It is a Commercial Critique, after all, not a Commercial Ass-Kissing.  We should also remember that it would prove worthwhile to look at what these games could have done better when we do a CC, and for example look at DC and ask why even though it has expertly done graphics it fails to stand out.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #28 on: April 25, 2006, 06:30:48 am
My vote goes to Demon's Crest.
While I really like the styles of the other two, I'd rather get to know from games I'm not that familiar with (DC in this case).
So yeah.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #29 on: April 25, 2006, 07:12:18 am
I don't like the look of DC at all, and am already quite familiar with MC as I really enjoy the graphics, and MLSS had a really great feel to it, but I think that's more to do with a culmination of all of its aspects rather than the graphics which on their own aren't stellar. I never really participate in these things, so I guess I'll abstain from voting. ^.^

O and I agree that we should start up the CCCs (Commercial Critique Challenges) again.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #30 on: April 26, 2006, 12:49:55 am
Demon's Crest gets my vote. Dunno if much can be learned from Mario/Zelda because of their minimalistic styles [Minish Cap to a lesser degree than ML]. Minish Cap is a great looking game, but technique-wise I'm not sure.

Offline goat

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #31 on: April 26, 2006, 02:15:26 am
Adarias: I for one really appreciate the input and am glad you feel as strongly about it as you do; it'll be a great dimension to add to a critique if DC gets selected.

Quote
  they look like what a lot of other games were doing around the same time
Like sonic said, MLSS and MC look an awful lot like the celish-implied-detail-simplistic-flat-style that was popular at the time/now.  Just because a game exemplifies a popular style or era shouldn't exclude it from critique, as for that reason we've given our nods to Square, SNK and most recently The Bitmap Brothers.  Personally, I think it might be more productive to revisit games that might not be as fresh in our memories as games from the GBA era, especially when so many people are flocking to styles similar to those found in MLSS/MC/FFTA and such, and so many of them doing it for the wrong reasons.    On that note:

Quote
also, simplicity is important because in pixelling, it transcends style, size, and palette.
If you're talking about avoiding meaningless complexity, then I agree not only in pixeling but in all life pursuits :p  If you're talking about the kind of simplicity mediocre artists use as a crutch, then I don't. Since I have faith in your artistic competence I'll assume you meant the former. 

Simplicity is a variable from piece to piece and is totally independent from the skill of the artist or the quality of an image's execution.  Therefore, to say it transcends any other variable, like size, colors used, etc. is weird and incorrect and I will trade punches with anyone who disagrees and is also smaller than me.

We've all (and by we I mean all of us) seen amazing pixel art that used simple forms and conservative palettes, and we've seen amazing pixel art that dripped detail from every single pixel.  We've seen crappy pixel art that crowded in too much detail (from artists who thought that the sheer quantity of detail would save it), and we've seen crappy pixel art that suffered from a lack of definition (from artists who thought that simplicity was a good enough excuse). We've seen everything in between.

And as a final note, I actually thought the graphics in SG&G were pretty clumsily made compared to their other titles of the time.  Not bad, just stiff and uninspired.  Plus, I just realized I totally just parroted what 3 other people said in previous replies.  /shrug
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #32 on: April 26, 2006, 07:20:54 am
I could write paragraphs of praise and explanation just for the fire-mouthed gargoyle on the wall in screenshot 1. SG&G is inferior, as is Street Fighter and other capcom lineup games of the time, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss SG&G at some point or Street Fighter or even not mediocre games but awful looking games. This is critique. We can discuss both the good and the bad aspects in any pixelled game. That was the original intention. We're not looking for games that are the best exclusively, we're looking for the games that are interesting to talk about. And I for one don't find a lot to say about the Mario game. Significantly more for the Zelda game and Demon's Crest is my pick because there's so much going on in the tiling and color selection.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #33 on: April 26, 2006, 07:40:23 am
I'd love to see Minish Cap in greater focus.
Primarily because its the only one that looks particularly beautiful to me, but also it seems a lot stronger in terms of design even if the techniques arent as clever as DC. Also while I don't know enough on the subject, I think the tiling looks exceptional.
I will agree that although I dont like the look of DC, it would make for good critique. If for nothing else because of the strong love/hate feelings it obviouslt arouses in people here. Theres nowt wrong with a bit of controversy.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #34 on: April 26, 2006, 05:46:23 pm
Ok, scrap my choice of M&LSS, i'm going to choose DC, because it's more of a style i want to learn/talk about at the moment.

Offline Sohashu

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #35 on: April 27, 2006, 06:09:22 am
DC>  That style would be interesting to go deeper into.
Back from hiatus, just remembered how excellent this community is at forming technique in a fledgeling artist of any kind.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #36 on: April 27, 2006, 12:57:11 pm
Heh, this topic took away absolutely all the attention from the Iso project.

My vote goes to Minish Cap.

I found Superstar Saga to be a great game, and I really like it's style. However, it works so well because you get the feeling of enviorment. Stripped down, it won't have the same shine. Personally, I both love and hate the graphics in Demon Crest. I've never seen that specific game before, but it reminds me of a style that became common for alien-shooters, R-type lookalikes and everything involving Demons and organs. I like the backgrounds and the spriters clearly have skill. It's just that semi pillowshading, overdetail and contrast that I've never had a connection to. I know, it's not the correct terms, it's just my own reaction to the style. I'm sure it would make one hell of a topic, but my choice is mostly based on what I prefer artistically. I think I would benefit a lot more from learning about Minish Cap, a game that I myself think looks brilliant rather than looking through a style I have no plans of using.

(but then, clearly I'm loosing this battle anyway  ::) )

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #37 on: April 27, 2006, 02:26:06 pm


I just thought that was another great shot from the game, infact all through the game great attention is paid to detail everywhere, including the backgrounds, even if you don't notice them.

M&L:SS, I felt everything was too squared off in, Minish cap is sexy in it's own way, which happens to be the way of many other simplistic games. DC is beatiful =D.

I might as well change my vote to DC, partly because I want to see this paragraph that helm wrote, and partly because I'm curious to see the likes/dislikes of it technically. M&L:SS and MC were both released while many people were on the internet talking about it, back when DC came out it didn't get that kind of attention.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #38 on: April 27, 2006, 08:05:39 pm
DC uses way too many colors in places, I agree.  Some of the graphics look like they may have been molested by selective color reduction.   I have some bones to pick with their lightsource placement too snake, we can moan about it together if the votes keep going the way they have been ;p although, this topic will be open until the 30th.. a lot can happen between now and then :P
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Offline Xion

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #39 on: April 28, 2006, 02:03:02 am
DC, but if I can suggest a new game, Yoshi's Island.

Offline goat

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #40 on: April 28, 2006, 02:34:29 pm
noted
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Offline GarRgoyle

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #41 on: April 28, 2006, 02:44:08 pm
DC, reminds me of Castlevania, and to this day Bloodlines remains my fav game...Although Ive never even heard of DC before :p
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 02:47:18 pm by GarRgoyle »

Offline Filax_666

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #42 on: April 28, 2006, 03:09:35 pm
Ill keep my vote for Minish Cap (DCs graphics are kinda...hmm...not the thing I like to see when I play a game) but I must say its weird that no one has mentioned Boktai...Ill surely suggest it if we have another Comercial Critique!

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #43 on: April 28, 2006, 03:49:23 pm
We did Boktai already.
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #44 on: April 28, 2006, 06:48:02 pm
My vote goes to Minish Cap, because it looks very detailed even with big areas of flat color and that's something I really want to learn how to use, specially for backgrounds. DC has a similar approach but it makes everything turns into shadows and I think that's not too difficult to achieve.

Offline setz

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #45 on: April 28, 2006, 07:04:22 pm
do you have an archive of past commercial critique's? because I don't see the threads :x I'd love to read over some of them.

Offline robalan

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #46 on: April 28, 2006, 07:51:06 pm
I think all the old commercial critiques were on Pixelation, the majority of which was lost when it crashed.  So unless someone saved the threads as text, they're gone :-\

Oh, and I'll place another vote for Yoshi's Island; that game had fun graphics.
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #47 on: April 28, 2006, 08:44:18 pm
My vote goes to yoshi's island.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #48 on: April 29, 2006, 01:06:14 am
Minish Cap. When does voting end and criting begin?
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #49 on: April 29, 2006, 01:14:25 am
Minish Cap. When does voting end and criting begin?

May! ...most probably

And yoshi's island, that had loovely graphics... i think i'm still gunna stick with DC though.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #50 on: April 29, 2006, 05:42:58 am
We did Boktai already.

Oh...too bad. If anyone saved it I'd be really glad to see it...

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #51 on: April 29, 2006, 06:46:48 am
oooh, Im gonna switch my vote to yoshis island
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #52 on: April 29, 2006, 07:23:19 am
Hmm, Demon Crest. The Castlevania feel is quite nice.

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #53 on: April 29, 2006, 12:58:36 pm
I'm sure someone has Boktai saved, it spawned a big critique and a really awesome challenge.

Voting ends tomorrow at midnight or whenever I get home, whichever happens later :p
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #54 on: May 01, 2006, 07:07:06 am
when the hell did we supposedly do boktai? I sure as hell dont remember it. it must've focused on the perspective because I dont remember any discussion of the simplistic shading style.

ooh wait, was this the discussion before it was even released? I dont think it should even count in that case...

I'm not really content with the options, I propose Comix Zone and Earth Worm Jim however futile that might be

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #55 on: May 01, 2006, 08:06:39 am
Here is a tally.

M&L:SS = IIII
LOZ:TMC = IIII IIII II
DC = IIII IIII IIII
YI = IIII

So demons crest is the winner. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:11:23 am by Sohashu »
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #56 on: May 01, 2006, 08:09:08 am
Hopefully the result is not because of the mass following the big pixelers. I don't like that way of democracy.
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Offline Sohashu

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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #57 on: May 01, 2006, 08:13:18 am
I think you mean like helm and not people liking games with 2 x 2 pixels. :P   I personally love all SNES games and personally adore DC, Chrono trigger, and terranigma.  I have no lif apart from these games and forums.   8) :(

I would also suggest for next time among TMC, M&L:SS, and YI, Gundam Wing: Endless Duel,  It has a good graphical style IMO. 

IF not that Chrono Trigger.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:38:52 am by Sohashu »
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #58 on: May 01, 2006, 11:55:34 am
chrono trigger or a seiken densetsu game would be a good game to critique, which is why its already been critiqued half a million times.  id prefer to look at something that you cant find all over the place

im interested to see what people can say about demon's crest
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #59 on: May 02, 2006, 06:14:19 am
Terranigma maybe?  OH well.  I think snes period is a good way to go as far as Commercial Critiqing goes.  It was a time when pixelling was the majority form of game making.  It is then, IMO, that graphics was as good as it gets. 
God bless the 2 x 2 pixel.   
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Re: Next Commercial Critique (MAY 06): Suggestions

Reply #60 on: May 02, 2006, 06:49:38 am
I'm looking forward to the critique of both Zelda and Demons Crest, so I don't really care wich wins. My suggestion for another game to critique is Lion Heart for Amiga http://hol.abime.net/894/screenshot.
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