AuthorTopic: How did the old masters create their pixel artwork (e.g. Simon the Sorcerer)?  (Read 22521 times)

Offline Fool

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 201
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • Fool's House
Not sure if I follow the discussion all the way (lost in translation), but it is sounds a bit strange to think of critique as of trimming tool that aimed to crop pieces to the certain standards. People offer an opinion for artist  and thats all good as long as he will understand why he agree or disagree with it . In learning process it is priceless. Besides many (some, perhaps) pieces around here is leaning towards medium technique study and suffering with lack of general drawings knowledge and sometimes that is something hard to figure it out on your own if you unaware. Sure drawing is fun thing to do, but I think it is  dumb  to stand in the position of unappreciated genius when somebody ask wtf is it that? Of course it could be a piece appeared before its time, that happens - I remember when I took my only oil paining I made in my garage at nights to the art teacher to show. She looks at it for a while - all right, that is good, composition could be improved that way and what that horsy doing in here? I start explaining thats not a horsy, that is a fetus and it represents bla-bla-bla, point is - what is good  if nobody can understand the language you use? Critique here does the trick as well, again not from the statements how it should be.
I guess same goes  for the limitation - nobody state how many colors your art should be before it could be called art, mostly talking about questionable choices in palette you make - I recall in school art class teacher took  black and white tubes out of boxes  saying there is no such  colors around you, figure how to make it look black within remaining set. It did sounds Nazi back then, but teaching again not exactly about art  but rather thinking in certain direction and understanding choices you make. Plus technique in medium and such. After  tool chest is well packed everyone can do what ever fits their best.

Sorry if I am on the wrong trial here.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 09:43:44 am by Fool »

Offline vierbit

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 158
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • 0.09 posts per day
    • View Profile
This is a interesting discussion here, really enjoy reading it.
I´m personally not much of an art(yeah,yeah what is "art" anyway?) person myself, doing mostly game related stuff or
other "useful" graphics, and getting payed for it(maybe that influences my point of view?).
-
I often get the feeling most of the critics are opinions anyway, which is not necessary a bad thing.
If most people have the same opinion on something then isn´t de facto the norm?
Which in itself makes the "rules", and from my experience critique consist mostly of telling people the rules.
And I´m not a big friend of telling people how to draw their stuff. If there is something serious wrong with their "art"
they get it sooner or later them self.
-
Well just my two cents on critique, but maybe it´s total bollocks what I write here.

Offline STE 86

  • 0001
  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
I'm kind of confused... You make it sound as though this forum is ruled with some kind of Iron fist.

hmm. judging from a couple of helms posts to the one above are u absolutely certain of this? they do contain implied threat of banning to me.

but anyway,

my point of view has not changed at all in 20 years. i have always and will always loathe pretentious "arty" evaluations and crits. i WILL always opt for practical ones.

to me quoting some method or rule attributed to someone the reader will never even have heard of is not in the least useful to a newby. all it does is attempt to make the quoter feel self important and superior. many other people will have discovered the same method. they just wont know the pretentious name for it. i will guarantee it.

better by far to post a practical example of a real world photo or illustration or even just say "move x pixels slightly to the left and make them blue and your image balance will be better"

and i am getting the distict impression on here its "my way or the highway" despite all the senior members protestations otherwise.

Steve

Offline sharprm

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 660
  • Karma: +0/-3
  • INTP/INTJ
    • View Profile

And a question so we could perhaps make this briefer, are you sharprm?


What do you think Goatf*cker?

I remember along time ago Dusty posted a pyramid. My intuition said urs were wrong. Now, I can’t find the proper diagrams which I did a little later (I post them on my deviant account in a few days), but there are ways to work out tileable pyramids and the answer was that

1)   Your pyramids had the layers too close to each other (ie. It was too steep) and my intuition was right
2)   It is possible to construct a pyramid that shows all the faces. Just interesting.

It was a case of right and wrong  and what did I get? Your little straw man: “I was pissed off at the comic”, you said. How is that scholarly?

The straw man does apply to me now because yes I am pissed. Check this out:

http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7285

Altering a color reduced digital painting is not okay.
Altering a color reduced photo is not okay.

BOTH these restrictions are no longer followed by PJ. This flip-flop is EPIC (soon they’ll invite back Jocher, no?)

Well, actually, altering a color reduced painting was never a problem. Fantastic composition for this ‘mass’ drawing: http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/20235.htm Here’s a ’line’ drawing to boot: http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/7649.htm Both predate the previous thread.

Not knowing of these examples though, I tried to get PJ to accept color reduced paintings the hard way. I proved they can be passed off as pixelart by entering these two without mentioning the method: http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/38491.htm  http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/39335.htm I also wrote a long, god awful essay, explaining the limitations of placing ‘each pixel by hand’: http://gamesarentnumbers.com/archive/what-are-merits-pixel-art.html  Not to mention this digital drawing done earlier: http://sharprm.deviantart.com/art/PixelDump-151682238

Oh yeah, the color reduced photo thing: http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/50320.htm?sec=showcase

Interesting how he mentions Helm’s piece. You see, in true 1984 fashion, history is being revised (is this scholarly?):

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?PHPSESSID=ac7bd2a864e606810163fbe6a4aa3403&topic=9913.0

Two contentions made by Helm: Helm was never a pixel purist, color reducing a painting is new. Both false. I was entering my own color reduced painting (and being pretty vocal about it) while he was still in denial:

http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=8464.msg95345#msg95345


There’s a difference though, I drew mine because it is a superior method, not because of some bullsh*t intellectual posing.

Wait, what is pixelart anyway? It’s the sum of every small digital piece a particular person thinks is good. It’s arbitrary, differs from person to person and is an utterly useless word (aside from naming the result of PJ’s filter). When people say pixelart is good, they’re saying absolutely nothing. When they say that something isn’t pixelart, all they’re saying is they don’t like it. Sometimes this is only because they couldn’t draw it themselves (eg. Simon the Sorceror backgrounds)!

How do we define pixelart so that everyone agrees on what it is (not what it should be)? Simple, just show the history of every PJ rejected piece (with counter examples). Did they go for it? (Did they even get it???)
http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9656

Nope.

Maybe Helm can rip that idea off too. “I don’t know how a system that resembles a well functioning legal system makes me feel ...”

They still wouldn’t go for it. Why? Because then they wouldn’t be able to flip-flop back again!

Lastly what’s up with all the abusing Helm? Think about it. Guy fails comic college (maybe Marvel comic lecturer was mean). Guy is upset. Guy pretends marvel comics aren’t good. Guy makes up garbage theories to compensate. Now is that scholarly?
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides
hmm. judging from a couple of helms posts to the one above are u absolutely certain of this? they do contain implied threat of banning to me.

I'm afraid I've been misunderstood, and I fear a lot of your points so far are based on similar misunderstandings so let me be clearer.

As long as you're civil and keep your grievances to this thread (or if you are willing, in PM) this will never result in your banning (or in your receiving strikes). TheOne is the one that got his second strike. You were a bit aggressive in the beginning but got into more detail later on that justified your position and you appear a honest person. So please don't misunderstand, whereas I do not share your opinions, you are in no danger of being banned for them. As the rules of the forum state, people generally get banned here for being assholes, not just for having an unpopular opinion. TheOne above (and I suspect this isn't his first name in Pixelation) was being an asshole so he can either shape up or be ejected, that's pretty fair for most forums, isn't it? So once more to be clear: as long as you don't insult people either overtly or by insinuation that they're morons or hypocrites or whatever, you're fine.

Quote
my point of view has not changed at all in 20 years. i have always and will always loathe pretentious "arty" evaluations and crits. i WILL always opt for practical ones.

Are you sure there are 'pretentious arty evaluations and crits' in pixelation? Have you seen how much practical critique and help is given daily in the critique section of the boards? There *are* theory threads in the general part of the forum (the one we're currently in) that can be seen certainly as arty or over-theoretical or pretentious if you're inclined to make that judgement, but do you think they get in the way with how Pixelation is run as a critique board? The raison d'etre of Pixelation is the critique board. Go look at it and show me the pretentious art crap in it. The more theory-related threads in the gen forum are for those that are interested in such things and have received much positive attention for it, I don't think they get in the way of the nitty and gritty of "move that arm 3 pixels to the left".

It seems to me you're just grabbing a chance here to tell people you hardly know that you dislike pretentious artsy guys without much provocation.

Quote
to me quoting some method or rule attributed to someone the reader will never even have heard of is not in the least useful to a newby. all it does is attempt to make the quoter feel self important and superior. many other people will have discovered the same method. they just wont know the pretentious name for it. i will guarantee it.

I have no idea what you're talking about actually. The only name quoted in this thread so far has been of Schopenhaue and I didn't bring him up nor was the text of his linked here of any strict relevancy to the matter at hand. This seems like some general concern of yours that I am not certain how it has to do with how Pixelation conducts critique by and large. Care to link to such method or rule citing by users? Are you talking about basic stuff like 'anti-aliasing' or 'dithering' or something more involved here? It might be a case of misunderstanding again, clarifications would help.

Quote
better by far to post a practical example of a real world photo or illustration or even just say "move x pixels slightly to the left and make them blue and your image balance will be better"

But startling majority the critique in Pixelation is of this type.

Quote
and i am getting the distict impression on here its "my way or the highway" despite all the senior members protestations otherwise.

That's really up to you, if you think there's anything you can gain or give to Pixelation, stick around. If all you're intent on doing here is voice grievances, as I said above perhaps some other place is more suited for your needs. There are many! This is not an implication of banning, this is a suggestion. Either find some positive use of Pixelation or move on, doesn't that make sense? As a moderator, making sure that a positive atmosphere is maintained in Pixelation is one of my jobs and continuous never-ending bitching about things that simply might not suit a user eventually become a concern if they cannot be solved directly. This is my attempt at solving them.

Also I don't see any senior members protesting about anything related to you grievances, care to link to them, make it clearer to me what I'm missing?

edit:

sharprm before I answer anything I have sent you a PM, please reply.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 01:07:30 pm by Helm »

Offline blumunkee

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 325
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • We glub but glob.
    • View Profile
I have nothing intellectual to add, but let me just say:

What was this discussion supposed to be about?

Don't be an ass.

Shut up and pixel.

I've seen people get instabanned for much less in other forums. Getting away with so many passive-aggressive personal attacks is unheard of. The mods here openly take criticism and are atypically easy-going and lenient.

I can't remember the last good old fashioned rant-filled flame we've had here. It seems there's been an unnaturally long dry spell of drama-free productivity and harmony. I've personally found this thread very entertaining. Not entertaining to the point where I feel compelled to make some popcorn and turn down the lights, but good nonetheless. There is something refreshing about reading this, like the Pixelation's chakras are being aligned. It's made all the more satisfying when you realize this thread was started by the first (and so far only) post from a new user. Brilliant.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 04:46:29 pm by blumunkee »
ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.

Offline sharprm

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 660
  • Karma: +0/-3
  • INTP/INTJ
    • View Profile
No hlem im not even going to read your pm. Blumunkee is right, there are 3 strikes between the fake account t’the one’ and ‘sharprm’, plus the additional goatf*cker, plus even having sock puppets. Ban me. I’ve said what I wanted to say. Let everyone get on with things.

Goatf*cker Goatf*cker Goatf*cker!  :yell:
Modern artists are told that they must create something totally original-or risk being called "derivative".They've been indoctrinated with the concept that bad=good.The effect is always the same: Meaningless primitivism
http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/Philosophy/phi

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides
Alright. For what it's worth I hope I stop being a source for aggravation for you at some point.

edit: also that's a good post number to call it a day on!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 03:23:10 pm by Helm »

Offline The B.O.B.

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 699
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • currently losering it up...
    • View Profile
   Holy crap! While watching the thread in the background, I remember reading the first "TheOne" post, and thinking "*sigh*...I'm guessing this is Sharprm in sheep's clothing"...who else would jump on the chance at another silly debate of defining pixel art. Didn't want to say anything, but sad to see that I was right. Great artist, with an unfortunate bad attitude.
   More on topic, though: I thought the subject of this topic was: " How did the old masters create their pixel artwork (e.g. Simon the Sorcerer)?  "? This was answered in the first couple of posts, yet the topic has been derailed completely by something so silly.
   Did something happen here? Why is it when so innocent a topic is brought up with the generic sense "of how it's done", some person with built in rage has to come in, twist and turn it to his own personal agenda of " I'm gonna' show these young whippersnappers how we used to do things in the olds days!1!"
   It seems to me that the other side of the argument isn't understanding something that's very clear to the majority; This is a website with it's own personal opinion on something. ie, this is what Pixelation would LIKE pixel art to be, though it's not the definitive of the art form. It's the sites opinion on it, just like any other site, and by members joining, they are also showing a willingness to be compatible along with it. Baseball is a form of a sport. Players don't join baseball, and expect them to start allowing on field tackling, and gladiator bat-battles at each base. It's a sport with understood rules. You play by the rules, or get out. So easy a concept to understand, and it simply boggles my mind, when people come into something with set rules, and decide that they're rules are better.
   By arguing with the users here about that subject, you're only raising it higher in your own psyche(and possibly even others), that this site's opinion on pixel art is the definitive. Which it ISN'T. Again, it's just what we'd like it to be(which I agree with, and feel it's EXTREMELY helpful in shaping good pixel artists...the number of pixel artists who used these ideals have gone on to make games professionally, with QUALITY work.)These type of arguments go no where, because no one person has the high ground, or the final word on such a silly subject. There are gray areas between all forms of art, yet you feel the need to justify your claim with " Nuh uh, it's graphic art and fine art...critiquing on a new formulated opinion is totally pretentious. We do things the fun way, not the boring way. That's the way we used to roll, and how it should be!!1!". That's too silly to even take seriously. Sounds to me like you're unwilling to change your ideals of art, which I guess is fine, as it's your opinion. This can be respected, I suppose.
   But when nips turn into biting, this starts turning into a case of "trolling." The topic question was answered, but the need to keep pestering on with something so dumb, is beyond me. I just hope that the "protesters" of the means of pixel art, can understand this one day. And if you feel so strongly about the way things are handled, why not just make another site with it's own set of ideals on pixel art? You obviously feel you have something to prove here, so why not just take it a step further, and see if it develops into something worthwhile, rather than starting something troll-like, and trying to stop the rest of us in ENJOYING what we do.
my back hurts...

Offline Jakten

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 250
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • The Bionic Vapor Boy
    • View Profile
    • Levitating Rocksquatch
Pixeljoint
I don't think anyone disagree's that Pixeljoint has stupid rules. But that... is Pixeljoint?

I don't think anyone has ever been threatened to be banned or looked down up on for their process for making their art around here. You definitely aren't going to be banned for not following some ones critiques or what ever 'methods/rules'. Anyone posting a critique just wants to help someone improve, they can take that with a grain of salt or completely ignore it or gather what they want from it and use it to improve.

I'm not sure what you mean by quoting a method or rule but how else are we to get across our points without naming them? I never knew what Anti Aliasing was when I started out so I asked, this resulted in me learning a new tool.

Not to sound like a douche to you but I actually feel that your method comes off as you are trying to feel self-important or superior. If you've learned to work well on your own that is great, but don't look down on other peoples methods of learning. Im sorry if I'm misunderstanding.