AuthorTopic: How did the old masters create their pixel artwork (e.g. Simon the Sorcerer)?  (Read 22978 times)

Offline TheOne

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Quote from: Helm
"Bullshitting is an art-form in itself"

Maybe to you.

Quote from: STE 86
"luminance quantization"

oooh! tell me more. How does it relate to pixelclusters?

Quote from: ptoing
"That said, this will probably be the last post I make in this thread, since I have better things to do ..."

Good thing you put the probably. Ptioing I know you are generous with your time and knowledge. Your AA tute is interesting and useful for example. But that doesn't mean you weren't trying to win an argument with a trick. Same with 7321551, I never said it was common, that's a straw-man argument.

Here's the thing. How frequent the cobblers are isn't the issue. What is important is that if someone sees a cobbler on a thread anywhere in pixelation, he/she should be able to address it without other people resorting to narky comments about their avatar or other forms of denial (btw i thought the likeness is pretty good ste86). That would reduce the cobblers and everyone would be better off.

Lastly (still there?), don't just think only ideas and theories can be cobblers. Serious critique has serious limitations. Avoiding doing bad things in a drawing is not the same as producing a great drawing. Drawing by committee sucks!!!!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 10:31:50 pm by TheOne »

Offline Helm

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Steve: the point about your avatar is not that it's bad, it's that it's old. It's from the 80s, and your point of view is from the 80's as well. This doesn't make it good, bad, correct or incorrect, it just makes it old and that explains a lot about what you're saying about art, about 'graphics and design' and ultimately about 'cobblers'. You talk about being a professional in the field as if that's a badge of legitimacy, where a lot of people on this forum also quiety work in the field today and have the opposite views to you when it comes to how pixel art is. It's mostly your problem that you cannot adjust to new circumstances and you're trying to argue about how the circumstances should drift back towards your comfort zone. Pixelation's not going to change in that way, there will be no distinction between 'art' and 'design' and 'graphics' here. There WILL be a lot of 'blind leading the blind' in the critique section of the forum which will always lead to slow but assured positive movement for the whole of the userbase. Critique will never be exhausted to 'use reference more'. If you can live with that, stick around and post your new art for critique and/or help others with your wisdom! If it doesn't suit you, you should find somewhere else where your point of view is the norm, not reactionary.

TheOne, your points of view being what they are I do not see how Pixelation is of any use to you. You could stick around and try to affect change on this thread as long as you're civil, but I don't think Pixelation is ready to give up on critique because you feel it's limiting. Do you have something better to do with your time? I feel like that sometimes too and then I don't post my art on Pixelation for critique (=I go do something better with my time).

I do think that critique has an 'expiration date' as far as the growth of an artist goes and it doesn't so much have to do with hittiing a high enough skill level so that critique becomes irrelevant, it has to do with the psychological effects of 'being told you're doing it wrong': for some stages in an artist's evolution, it's very good to hear these things, at some other stages it's either irrelevant or even detrimental. Sometimes one artist can go from critique being beneficial to him to being detrimental and then back to beneficial. One has to look at his own situation honestly and judge if a place like Pixelation is useful to them at that point in their lives. People that outgrow receiving critique in Pixelation are welcome to stick around and just post it. People that do not believe in the critique process altogether can hit the road and do us all a favor.

Quote
What is important is that if someone sees a cobbler on a thread anywhere in pixelation, he/she should be able to address it without other people resorting to snarky comments about their avatar or other forms of denial (btw i thought the likeness is pretty good ste86).

No you see, what is important in Pixelation is that people are encouraged to post critique (even if it's unfounded, strange or even blatantly bad critique) and let the original artists take from it what they want, without disruptive people like you that have a score to settle breathing down their necks. It's an issue of atmosphere and of community. All denials are equal, Pixelation has a scope that needs be maintained for it to be useful. If you have different thoughts on how an art critique board should be ran (and it seems you do) by all means, go start the board and I'll be eagerly watching how it grows and what it does differently. I learn better from example than I do by being told 'I'm doing it wrong', that's just how Pixelation made me.

You have voiced your concerns here in this thread and they're up for public discussion, please keep it to this thread though and make a further effort to be honest and courteous to people. You might want to drop the irony and such for this.

Offline Jakten

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"u MUST work like this because THE RULES say so"

I'm kind of confused... You make it sound as though this forum is ruled with some kind of Iron fist. It's not like people are busting your knuckles for not putting AA underneath that eyeball or something. Over the years people have found what works well and generally encourage people to use those things to make their images look nicer. This especially applies to pixel art due to the fact that such a small image needs to be able to be recognizable. Working in the industry I want to be able to make attractive art, I want people to be able to tell what it is I am making.

I agree that art should not be bound to any sort of rules, but you have to have some kind of guidelines or methods other wise you are just scribbling. You should always have fun with what you make but I don't see anything wrong with wanting to have fun in a more skilled way. Wanting to be better is not bad...? Understanding what makes an image look good to me only means you can have MORE fun with it. AND You can make it more FUN for the viewer to see it in the process. Imagine how fun it is to be able to reproduce your imagination vividly. I remember having fun drawing stick figures as a kid, I remember how often what I made was misinterpreted too. They are guidelines not rules.

Anyways a lot of people here like to see what makes things tick, it's fun to them. I like taking apart mechanical things and finding out why it works, Its similar to that.

Offline TheOne

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More straw-man arguments. I pointed out critique has limitations that’s all. YOU extrapolated it because there is actually nothing wrong with what I said. I’ll say it again in case you didn’t get it the first time.

Great drawings requires focus. Input from too many users (with different ideas about what the piece should be about) is a detriment to the piece. Avoiding doing bad things is not the same as making great drawings. Great drawings can still have mistakes! http://insomnia.ac/essays/on_criticism/

Why point out these obvious facts? Because people talk about critique like it’s magic.

Quote
“We work in an atmosphere of serious art critique, where other members are encouraged to deconstruct and reconstruct work.

All this has elevated the medium we use over the years and resulted in a whole slew of improvements.”

Yes I do have something better to do with my time  :yell:. Like smoke pot, feed my cats and deal with highschool exam flashbacks.

Offline Helm

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Good luck with all of that and thanks for the Schopenhauer.

Offline NaCl

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Interesting essay... but it seems very irrelevant. The only similar thing between this discussion and that seems to be the word "critique". He is describing art critics, people who judge art and compare art and artists against each other. In this forum, for the most part, critique is pointing out technical errors and suggesting solutions, sometimes through an edit. It has nothing to do with praising or condemning the artistic value of something. Schopenhauer specifically says, "In appreciating a genius, criticism should not deal with the errors in his productions or with the poorer of his works, and then proceed to rate him low". I firstly do not suspect anyone on this forum is a genius, and secondly I do not see anyone rating anyone else.

Anyway I'm not sure I understand your position... I'll assume it is that "critique has limitations", because that is what you said in your most recent post. No one is arguing that critique is limitless though... so I think it is you who is fighting the straw man. Critique is not magic, it's the fact that it takes time to learn how to create art, and some people are better at executing it then others. From that you have to draw the conclusion that better (better at executing specific things) artists helping worse (worse at executing certain things) artists is a good thing.

Sure great drawings require focus, and probably can not be made by input from too many people. But the two errors in that statement are:

- Assuming that aside from the critique, the person would be able to make great drawings. Not many people on this forum are at a point where making great drawings is even a possibility.
- Assuming the critique on this forum is about "what the piece should be about". It rarely is. The vast majority of the time it is about helping a person overcome technical errors in their work.

"Avoiding doing bad things in a drawing is not the same as producing a great drawing", I agree, but whose to say that producing great drawings is the immediate goal? For most pieces I post for critique the goal is to learn and improve.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 08:18:27 am by NaCl »

Offline TheOne

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Damn. I guess my last ironic statement will backfire because no-one reads Helm’s blog.

Nacl if you want a clear position and argument then let’s start a formal debate! 3 posts each say and a word limit on each post of your choosing. You can start. Here’s the topic based on what Gil said: “Pixelation’s scholarly attitude and critique process has elevated pixelart above the level of Simon the Sorceror’s backdrops”

You’re probably right I likely misread people’s wooly self-gratifying statements and attack moronic straw men.

Offline NaCl

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Uhhhhh no. I have said what I wanted to say, on the topics that I care about. That is basically, "I find the critique provided on this board valuable". I don't care whether pixel art has been elevated or not.

Offline Sherman Gill

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Jesus Christ, TheOne.
It's really not doing you any favors by pointing out 'straw-man arguments', there is room for compromise between your opinion and theirs, so please, drop the attitude and debate tactics and consider being civil.
Oh yes naked women are beautiful
But I like shrimps more haha ;)

Offline Helm

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Also, here's a strike for you for being a jackass  :ouch:

And a question so we could perhaps make this briefer, are you sharprm?

And another: do we need the grief?

I have the answer to that last one, we don't.

Consider your next post carefully!