Got some questions?

[Miguel]

Hi there people!

Does anyone of you guys remember EVOGA? it was a MEXICAN based company that created some very fine titles for SNK; Rage of the dragons for example a very cool kof-looking game. Well.. how tiny is the world, i recently meet one of the guys who created character designs, sprites and some animations for this game, its mexican (like me) and I asked him if i could interview him for this site, he said yes, so im making this open for all of you guys, what do you want to know from a spriter who works at snk?, ask whatever you want and hopefully he will answer back on this thread.

ROTD EVOGA graphic team
Character designers : Super Dotter K', Mr. Vo, Mamero, Dessy, Nankin, Bel Mont, Hikaru Suf, Shio Shio, Rinkenedu, Edu, Shuhey Kawasaki, Jaga Danshaku

He's MR.VO from that list.

My first question was (and i think some people here remember a commercial critique where we asked ourselves this) ¿do they use independent pixel art software created by snk? He said yes and he said that it runs on macs! how nice!

Anyways, ill leave you with a couple of screenshots to show you guys what im talking about!

Cheers and make all your questions!

[Chris]

I have a question:

Would you marry me Ndeal ?

[Lick]

I wonder if their software had any special features that we haven't seen, and missed any features they wanted back then?

[Miguel]

I have a question:

Would you marry me Ndeal ?

YES XD

Anyways, ask as much as you guys can, I belive he will start answering questions shortly, well thats what he said

[Evan]

You should take all the energy you devote to your art, and redirect it into learning how to ride a unicycle, and I guarantee that you will be the best unicyclist in the world.

[PyroPiranha]

A pro's taking the time to respond, lets keep the integrity of the thread a bit more serious please :p

Anyways, three questions.

Do you use any other medium of art?  Which do you prefer and why?

What got you started/interested in pixel art?

Where do you see the industry going?

[MR.VO]

Greetings to all, sorry for taking some time to answer, but work is work and happens that sometime I forget which day I live.

My first question was (and i think some people here remember a commercial critique where we asked ourselves this) ¿do they use independent pixel art software created by snk? He said yes and he said that it runs on macs! how nice!

As I told Miguel before, SNK made his own tools for development for pixel art level or dot work as they call it, they distribute this program to their thirth parties like Noise Factory and they keep it very restricted to outsiders, each designer had to put a password in order to used it and even to install it you had to insert a password, the program itself had many features that recently pixel software has, but I guess 8 years or more ago it was one of the best, generally it had the work area, color palette, tools for drawing and a feature to check the progress and fluid of animation, many of the features are now on open software, now I know, but by the time I started the RodT project I did knew few of pixel art, also the program runs on Mac, no t so new since they used an old Power mac 6400 (maybe), but as well on PC since I saw somebody of KOF staff running the program on it.

A pro's taking the time to respond, lets keep the integrity of the thread a bit more serious please :p

Anyways, three questions.

Do you use any other medium of art? Which do you prefer and why?

What got you started/interested in pixel art?

Where do you see the industry going?

Hi Pyro
Q1- I like to use traditional medium, but now I´m moving to full digital lamost since many time work requires it, I like digital because you can allow some mistakes and can always be redone without starting over, the negative side in my opinion is that digital art becomes quite afimeral since you don´t have an original, sure, maybe you have the file in layers and so, but it can compare to a real original piece of artwork, anyway I keep using both of them and I doubt to drop them sometime..

Q2- I got myself involved on pixel art when I started to work with EVOGA, I´m  a graphic designer and a hard fan of fighting games, but I knew few about pixel work, my first contact was with the game EVOLUTION SOCCER, a soccer game with created first, after that I moved to direct the RAGE OF THE DRAGONS game for neo geo, there I got real involved since the work demanded, from that point I got involved and now I´m always looking to improve myself, not only on pixel art, but as well on other areas that help me on my actual works like 2d and 3d, sometime I will have the insane speed to create pixel art as the Noise factory or the KOF staff had, man, the mouse almost was on fire because of the fiction of the spped over the mouse pad 

Q3- pixel art for arcade games is almost a goner, few left on this and almost all the industry is moving to consoles, the pixel art will be an important for the game industry devoted to cell phones, since the tech has made possible to had better games on them, but with tehc nowdays changing avaery day I´m not sure how long the pixel art will be need it, I hope for long. 

[Miguel]

Could you tell us more about the process of pixel work? They draw them first and then they scan it or something?

[The Cold Mage]

what is the best way to get the attention of more established development companies in hiring perspective artists?

I've been able to get work with some lesser known companies, but it would be nice to get into the inner circle of some of the bigger names like SNK.

[Conzeit]

now this is exactly the kind of thread that we shoul have a "best of Pxpolis" for, Ndeal you truly are in the know. asspatting aside....stop changing SNs you madafucka! ;p

MR.VO...I'm yet another to ask about SNK

Does their software contain any form of darken/lighten mode painting?(such as screen/multiply in photoshop) I always theorized they must've used something that integrated the concept of alpha blending into indexed pictures.

any chance of leaking a few screengrabs of said app?

what level of supervision was there from SNK?

Do they run you trough any training process before they let you work on the game?

did they pay well? lol....

what role do you usually take on when pixeling ?

do you find any aspect of pixelart valuable outside of it's direct low-rez low-color practicality?  in other words, are there any thechniques you learnt from pixelart you'd find valuable in other areas?

take your time to answer em...if you feel like it, I dont expect em to be answered all at once.

[Xion]

A question: Why are you so awesome?

When you started pixelling, about how well developed were your art skills in general, and do you think that by pixelling you have also improved your traditional art skills?

[MR.VO]

hello again, I had some time so here we go

Could you tell us more about the process of pixel work? They draw them first and then they scan it or something?

Mostly they work directly on the pixel, start with a body base and from there the full character and his movements, of course these guys are the ones that have years on this, others prefer to draw first, scan and work on it, I work with this method, other staff also use this method, like the creator of ANGEL of KOF, all her momvements where made fisrts on paper and after made on pixel, the character is made with solid colors, after that you must work the darker and lighter areas thinking on the iluminations, after that you must go for the middle tones, when making the animation first you work with the charaters on middle work, after the animation is accepted finally you can finish them

what is the best way to get the attention of more established development companies in hiring perspective artists?

I've been able to get work with some lesser known companies, but it would be nice to get into the inner circle of some of the bigger names like SNK.

First than all, you MUST publish your work, on these days of internet is easier than ever to let other people see you work, send mails, made work fo charaters of companies you are interest, other harder but sometimes easier is to know the correct people  , for a companie like SNK-playmore honestly I think is harder, they constantly are recruiting staff, but not so much for dot work, last time I saw them recruiting was for snk vs capcom for neo geo, besides you should talk full japanese, in my case since I was part of EVOGA staff we had a translator for Jap.

thank you for your time to ask, hopefully I will try to answer the rest of the questions on the next days, please be patient

best regards

MR.VO

[Conzeit]

thank you SO MUCH for your time and confidence to do this MR.VO, this is completly incredible.

I'm glad to hear they block in the basic colors first cause that's exactly how I do it  ( Angel's animation always was one of my favorites) I wish I could see those basic drafts of midtone-less sprites.

[Conzeit]

I'm doubleposting, yeah. But I am just too terrified by the idea that Mr.VO might not post any more answers just because when he comes he cant find the topic, so to sum up...

BUMP!!!

[MR.VO]

Hello again, sorry for taking so long this time, but I been short of time these weeks, thanx Camus for keeping alive the topic, I tried to post since last week, but for some unknow reason the forum reject my post, dunno why, anyway

Camus 
MR.VO...I'm yet another to ask about SNK


any chance of leaking a few screengrabs of said app?

sorry, I don,t have any screenshots of the program, by that time I never tought on taking a shot, besides it was very restricted and I don´t have a copy of it

what level of supervision was there from SNK?

The level by that time was a little lower tahn usual as far as I know, after the end of SNK many of the best staff decided to leave, not only on dot design, but as well on programming, by the time I was there, there was new bosses on each area, so the had some troubles on the organbization, but manage to keep the quality

Do they run you trough any training process before they let you work on the game??

I only had a very basic training, actually I had to move on dot design for several reasons, most important to understand better the process and work, we had a bad experiencie before with our first game, on evoulution soccer we only put the ideas for the game, but did not took in count the amount of work and budget , since it was our first game we were quite rookies, after that and since I was director of the project I decided to make dot design so express better my ideas, see the amout of work and somehow, a liitle recreation since it was fun to make dots. For dot in the game I was supervised by chief designer and after it was approved or rejected.

did they pay well? lol....]

Since I was working for EVOGA I recived my salary from them, so I don't have a good reference of how much but on some chats I had with them they talk about 1700 us a month, plus extra benefits for starters

what role do you usually take on when pixeling ?

sorry, I did not catch the question  like how do I behave when making pixel art? well, I try to be quite calm and listen music because I focus best.

do you find any aspect of pixelart valuable outside of it's direct low-rez low-color practicality?  in other words, are there any thechniques you learnt from pixelart you'd find valuable in other areas?

 recently I made a kind of simulated 80 fighting game for a short film that was shown on national TV during the last olympics, besides I use the pixel art sometimes for advertising so it has help me to know how to create dot graphics because, even if they are not low rez or low color, I know how to built them for use on other areas


Well, hope my answers help somehow and if you have more, feel fre to make them, I will try not to take too long to answers them

See ya

Best regards
Mr.Vo

[flaber]

do you work with pixelart - game graphics as a full time job or do you have to find other work as well? In other words, does getting into this career provide a good enough salary that you can live off of comfortably, or do you have another job that you do too?

[David]

Do you have a website where we can look at examples of your work? Oh, and thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.

[Conzeit]

awesome, thank you so much for answering my questions.

you skipped the one that mattered the most to me....I understand if you dont want to answer it right now, I just want to make sure you didnt miss it.

perhaps it was a bit complicated, I guess I'll repeat it and expand on it in spanish

el programa de SNK, ¿tiene herramientas con alpha blending parecidas al multiply/screen de photoshop? (si utilizas screen en photoshop, se aclara todo sobre lo que pintes,  y se oscurece si usas multiply) yo siempre habia pensado que SNK tendria una herramienta parecida ajustada para que sirviera en imagenes con paleta, como un sprite por ejemplo.

que pena insistir tanto, pero esto de verdad me interesa mucho.

[Miguel]

Camus, la respuesta es si, y por lo que me platico MR.VO, el dijo que als herramientas que tenian eran bastante avanzadas y que corrian en macs. Tambien tenian onion skin para la animacion, pero que realmente la grandeza de los pixeles venia de los editores, realmente los pixeleros de snk eran probablemente los mejores pixelers que MR.VO jamas habia visto, el mismo menciona que el mousepad terminaba en fuego. XD

[Conzeit]

OH YES OH YES. I knew it! the answer is YES.

lo sospeche desde un principio!

ja, gracias por todo esto Ndeal...todavia me siento mas en confianza diciendote asi.... nunca hubiera confirmado eso si no fuera por ti. GRACIAS GRACIAS GRACIAS, por hacer todo el esfuerzo de traer a Mr.VO hasta aca, y de hablarte con el de lo que pregunte y hacer un post solo para responderme.

YOU RUUUULE!

There are certain flame effects by snk that just scream out indexed alpha blending, it shows they do it with great skill, but I just cant imagine someone doing that kind of effect by just laying out each separate pallete entry by hand.


<- look at that! there had to be alpha blending.

it's really really funny, how SNK being the one who had complete dominion over indexed alpha blending wasnt the first one to use it in the character sprites. Capcom was more inventive and beat them to the punch in SF3. I wonder what it would look like if SNK attempted that.

I just cant belive I'm the only one who seems to have real technique questions about this c.c

[ptoing]

Alphablending whut? Afaik the Neogeo has no alphablending capabilities, not 100% sure tho. I don't get what you mean with those palettes, the fireball and the effect on the guy don't look that complicated at all. Neither does the small ball, which seems to have TONS of colours.

[Conzeit]

alpha blending IN the drawing process itself, not running when the engine is executed.

you know, like using multipy/screen in photoshop, only adapted to work with palleted images.

[ptoing]

Oh i see, the only thing i think that looks like something like multiplyor whatever was used is the small blue one. The others have like 8 colours or something, that's not hard to lay down yourself at all.

[Helm]

A lot of these effects would be quite simpler to make in highscale proggies, be them 3d or photoshop or aftereffects or combinations of these and then downgrade and posterize and rework minutely on the pixel-level.

[Conzeit]

I really dont think these programs would do what SNK did back in the day.

if we're talking ROTD, or Samsho Tenka, or Neo Geo Battle Colliseum then I completly agree.

but the old SNK effects were all about well rendered sillouethes and not about particle effects at all. I enjoy the way this style synthetizes concepts like flames and water with just a few strokes and pallete entries, to me it expresses much more knowledge of these effects than any high end 3d rendering routine. That's really what it is about for me, expressing information with the fewest strokes and pallete entries.

I'm not saying it'd be hard to make this whitout alpha blending, I'm saying it'd make no sense,  there are frames where it's use is so downright obvious doing it whitout alpha blending would be turning off alpha blending only to imitate it by hand. pointless. I know some people here would do things like that but I belive SNK as a company has more practical goals.

you all seem to forget that, in companies you dont get to work on every little detail until your heart is content,as soon as you get the effect your director wants expressed you're done.

I'm mostly interested in this because of the nearsighted vision helm is proposing with CA aesthetic, I dont think it's really that important to lay out every pallete entry on the picture by itself, it is only important to be conscient of how every stroke made represents an object's volume.

I've been thinking of this...aproximately since I joined pixelation. so it goes back quite a while. you guys remember when we all found out about Promotion? what was the first thing I did?
I brushed this in very quickly.heh. I hope helm remembers

the reason I havent used Promotion's tools is because they dont really work that tightly with the pallete, the way I belive it should be (and what I think SNK does) is that every stroke causes color cycling in the pallete in one direction or the other. it's really a very easy concept to implement, and it'd work perfectly to generate mutliply/screen oriented tools fitted for pixel art.

not only that, but tattos, and other recoloring based details would also be a breeze.

I've always thought a companies like capcom and SNK were not doing things like selout by laying out each shade by hand, I think nobody remembers now but when BluMunkee and St0ven made their theory thread about selout, what I contributed to the topic was that the outline basically followed the same lightness shifts as lighting on the sprite did. another instance in which I implied my thinking on this.

or any time any one in here seriously proposed creating a pixelart program, I suggested this feature, I think nobody ever really understood what I mean, but I did always mention it.

I think if this were implemented correctly it would become relevant not only to pixelart, but to CGing in general, it'd provide much greater control than Photoshop ever did whitout taking out any drawing power.

[Miguel]

I belive, from what i can see, that they really dont used alpha blending that much, i mean, most of these stuff looks like done pixel per pixel, you know? But yeah.. if anything I'd love to see the program that snk used for pixel work anyways..

Me alegra que agrade este tema, camus. La primera pregunta cuando lo conoci, fue precisamente del Alpha Blending, yo tambien discuti en aquel commercial critique donde nos preguntabamos eso.

[Helm]

Camus, darken/lighten paint mode, as well as Shade mode (if it works) already do what you're talking about in pro motion, so I guess... rejoice? You click, it darkens or lightens ( moves up or down the ramp) from 1 step to as many as you need depending on the harshness set in the ctrl-t controls.

I want to be clear my CA talk is my personal opinion about the merits of the artform and I'm not trying to shove it down anyone's throat. If people have to make 5 different clean ramp fighter sprites then nobody's stopping them. I enjoy the preciseness and the CONTROL involved in making pixel art and therefore I like minute palette adjustments until everything is in it's right place. Each to their own.

[Conzeit]

I enjoy the preciseness and the CONTROL involved in making pixel art and therefore I like minute palette adjustments until everything is in it's right place. Each to their own.

you're still not getting it are you helm? I knew about the alpha blending ages ago. that's why I posted the pic I made back when I found out about promotion

I brushed this in very quickly.heh. I hope helm remembers

that was made with alpha blending as soon as I found out about promotion

CONTROL is exactly what I enjoy too. dont you get it? that's what promotion doesnt have. those "steps" are really just about by how many points the lightness value is being tweaked, they are not related to actual color ramps or palletes at all.

it might be ok to spend hour upon hour to get the detail you want if you're doing still pictures for your own purpose. but as soon as you get involved with animation it becomes ludicrous, every detail must be done as quickly as posible to be even a considerable as part of a design.

that is why I need an alpha blending mode that gives me complete CONTROL over the palelte, so I can draw everything with complete control but far more quickly. that's what this this is about.

are my post really SO criptic there's no posible way anyone can understand them?

[The Cold Mage]

dude, camus, wtf

[Miguel]

dude, camus, wtf

?

[Darien]

What's alpha blending?

[Rawsushi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_blending

and http://www.wikipedia.com - You can find just about anything.

[Helm]

are my post really SO criptic there's no posible way anyone can understand them?

Yes, I guess they are, Camus. If I didn't get it although I knew what you were talking about, guess how many people got it that didn't.

The 'points of lightness' thing is correct, and we've already made a suggestion to jan for pure palette stepping instead of the ctrl-t based system. But with a bit of tweaking it works now just fine too.

[Bachus]

Let me try to understand.

You want to draw a greyscale sketch like your little Mega Man example guy that represents all the light and shadows. Then you want to define a palette of colors, say 5 flesh tones, 5 clothes tones, 5 miscellaneous tones. Then when you draw a base color over the greyscale on another layer it automatically picks the right palette color to display?

Or am I completely off the mark?

[robalan]

I think he's saying that he wants an alpha-blending mode that moves by ramp steps rather than just by value.  In his greyscale sprite, I think he used an alphablending tool to go up the gradient from one color to the next.  Ideally, he'd like to be able to draw the silhouette in the base, darkest color, and have the alphablending tool have each progressive "layer of paint" go to the next step in the ramp.

I may be completely off, but that's what I got out of it, and it sounds like a potentially cool idea.

[Conzeit]

I think he's saying that he wants an alpha-blending mode that moves by ramp steps rather than just by value.  In his greyscale sprite, I think he used an alphablending tool to go up the gradient from one color to the next.  Ideally, he'd like to be able to draw the silhouette in the base, darkest color, and have the alphablending tool have each progressive "layer of paint" go to the next step in the ramp.

I may be completely off, but that's what I got out of it, and it sounds like a potentially cool idea.

hahahaha. robalan totally got it. man, I feel like such a dinosaur, it's like I'm talking in egyptian and everyone is trying to decode me hahaha

[robalan]

I understood what you were saying from the first post.  I don't know why people have a hard time understanding your posts.  Perhaps the reason I can understand what you're saying is because my posts tend to be similarly rambly and disorganized :-P

[Bachus]

So like a pencil tool with flow control (like an airbrush) that uses a palette of colors instead of a smooth gradient? I suppose if I had ProMotion this would make a lot more sense. I think it's the term "alphablending tool" that confused me. I know what alphablending is, but have never heard of an "alphablending tool".

[Helm]

yes that confused me too because what camus describes doesn't have to do with alphablending at all. It's just moving up and down on a color ramp.

Camus, if you like you can keep your hands on the [ ] keys in pro motion and manually go a step up and a step down, if you keep your palettes organized, this is pretty seamlessly like the tool you suggest, only you don't have to switch between 'lighten' and 'darken' but just press the keys. What you're asking for isn't really much different.

[setz]

wow helm, I just that helps immensley, alot better than having to go back up and click them, or ctrl-clicking a space with the color there already. I have nothing constructive to add to the chat, I just wanted to mention that I didn't know that, and I wish I did before, because it's awesome.

[Helm]

Might be a good idea to read the documentation for the software you bought, there's a million little small helpful things that make promotion cooler than anything else for pixels.