AuthorTopic: GR#073 - Coder Dept. Weapons  (Read 43586 times)

Offline Mathias

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GR#073 - Coder Dept. Weapons

on: August 07, 2009, 05:58:27 pm
What began as inside joke, among myself and my fellow game development cronies, is coming to fruition in the pixel art format. Watch it go.

GAME DEVELOPMENT WEAPONS. Designed for waging the war within the war that is game dev. >>See completed Graphics Dept. Weapons thread

With Graphics complete, Coder's is now next. The Coder's chosen weapon type is slashing, so your typical sword is compliant with that. But I want concepts that are memorable, not just "swords", hence the sword concepts below. I basically just stole the buster and master sword designs. Just for that extra pop-culture cliché. Number 1 - The Coder's Claymore, is already an established motif in use in my group so it has to stay a claymore, but the number 2 and 3 there can be anything.





Basic forms are chosen. I'll be updating here as I progress. Comments on technique as well concepts are welcome; everything is welcome.

Number 1 will have 9 colors. Number 2 will have 16 colors. Number 3 will have 25 colors. Colors not chosen yet, but I'm constrained to the EGA palette for my selection.


« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 03:43:50 am by Mathias »

Offline Crow

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #1 on: August 07, 2009, 08:48:16 pm
I don't think number two fits. Compared to one and three, it's a pretty heavy sword design and, in a fight, couldn't be used like the other two. I don't know what your intentions are, but I myself would prefer three swords of the same "type".
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Offline Corsair

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #2 on: August 08, 2009, 05:51:06 pm
IN the second, one the handle is way too far to the left.
I 'm actually going to question your use of the buster sword and master sword, since both icons are just so ubiquitous whatever you do with them will be -recognizable- but lack entirely in distinctiveness in design.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #3 on: August 09, 2009, 07:04:32 am
IN the second, one the handle is way too far to the left.
I 'm actually going to question your use of the buster sword and master sword, since both icons are just so ubiquitous whatever you do with them will be -recognizable- but lack entirely in distinctiveness in design.

I found a version of the buster sword where the handle was intentionally offset, like the two holes in the base of the "blade" area are offset; not centered.
All swords need to be balanced, concerning weight, so the wielder can hold/swing them correctly. I think this has something to do the offset of the particular design I'm referring to. Imagining a crushing blow from this thing it stands to reason that the handle be offset like it is so that the part of the blade area, I currently have colored as pink, acts like a weight to intensify the impact of the blow, the more the offset of the handle towards the cutting edge, the more the weighty backside follows the swing bring more power with it. It's a physics problem. Probably doesn't make any sense, but that how I rationalized how my reference was designed. It may just be distracting.

Once finished, these will be seen by three people. Like I said, borrowing the designs adds a nostalgia and prestige factor. I'm not trying to innovate new sword designs. Instead, I'm kind of celebrating these old beloved designs. Think of it as a respectful homage. These swords are not for use in any game project, or any other type of project for that matter. Certainly nothing commercial.

Offline Beoran

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 11:42:19 am
For the Buster Sword, sure the handle needs to be offset a bit, but to the other side. On the cutting edge, the sword is much thinner, and hence, much lighter than on the backbone side. The Buster's hanle should be towards the backside of the blade, just like how, for example on a katana, the handle is "curved" in the direction of the backside of the blade.
Kind Regards, Beoran.

Offline Corsair

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 05:48:37 am
IN the second, one the handle is way too far to the left.
I 'm actually going to question your use of the buster sword and master sword, since both icons are just so ubiquitous whatever you do with them will be -recognizable- but lack entirely in distinctiveness in design.

I found a version of the buster sword where the handle was intentionally offset, like the two holes in the base of the "blade" area are offset; not centered.
All swords need to be balanced, concerning weight, so the wielder can hold/swing them correctly. I think this has something to do the offset of the particular design I'm referring to. Imagining a crushing blow from this thing it stands to reason that the handle be offset like it is so that the part of the blade area, I currently have colored as pink, acts like a weight to intensify the impact of the blow, the more the offset of the handle towards the cutting edge, the more the weighty backside follows the swing bring more power with it. It's a physics problem. Probably doesn't make any sense, but that how I rationalized how my reference was designed. It may just be distracting.

Once finished, these will be seen by three people. Like I said, borrowing the designs adds a nostalgia and prestige factor. I'm not trying to innovate new sword designs. Instead, I'm kind of celebrating these old beloved designs. Think of it as a respectful homage. These swords are not for use in any game project, or any other type of project for that matter. Certainly nothing commercial.


What beoran said, having the handle offset in the *opposite* direction would have more of the effect you're speaking of. Granted we're not talking a bout a weapon aht could in any way be feasible in real life, but if one were to hold it straight up it would fall back as opposed to forward. Regardless of the handle position relative to the blade, the falling force would be exactly the same no matter where it were oriented on the hilt, Futhermore, if one were to swing such an off-balance sword to the side (not like any sane person would do something so potentially back breaking) the natural inclination would be for the backside to fall down, causing the blade turn up, thus making for an extremely awkward motion. Offsetting it other8 side would have a similar, but opposite effect. I'm honestly sticking to my guns here. As it is it *looks* off balance and it *is* distracting. Whatever the case, i'm not trying to argue with you. Unless the three people who are going to see this are familiar with that particular design you refer to then they're likely to think the same thing.

Also, I don't know if this was intentional or not, but what exactly do you mean by 9 colors? Like 9 concrete color or 9 color *ranges* because the AA you're using really just knocks the color restriction way out of the window there, and looks like it was done using photoshops pen tool with the AA on, rather than definite pixel-pushing.

EDIT:

yading all that it sounds rather harsh. I'm really not intending to be, so I apologize if any of this came off as confrontational. I didn't mean it : :(
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 06:27:32 am by Corsair »

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 06:13:40 pm
(whoops, I didn't realize there were responses here . . .)

For the Buster Sword, sure the handle needs to be offset a bit, but to the other side. On the cutting edge, the sword is much thinner, and hence, much lighter than on the backbone side. The Buster's hanle should be towards the backside of the blade, just like how, for example on a katana, the handle is "curved" in the direction of the backside of the blade.

I think you're right. Functionally, and as with any sword weapon, balance is key, and having the hilt offset like I have it now would make it very difficult to use it.The hilt should be horizontally centered with the swords center of gravity, when in an upright position.


@ Corsair: Critique. The more brutal the better, friend! Really, your post was just fine.
True we're rationalizing against an impossible sword design, but it's good for it to not be distractingly built. Regardless of the perception of the 3 people who will see it. Once I begin work on the buster I'll address it's wonkyness.

Colors. Sorry for not being clear - that first WIP state has all 3 swords created, but just basic shapes, randomly color-coded so the different parts can be differentiated between when it comes time to pixel over. Auto AA heaven. The 9 colors thing means I will eventually reduce it down to only 9 colors, I just don't know which yet. EGA palette is chosen, though.



UPDATE: Claymore hurredly began - Default EGA colors only now, looking slightly more visually interesting, but still quite poor.



(looks like it may be wise to reduce my templates size, next time)

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 11:51:04 pm
UP TO DATE:



. . . oh, it got uglier!

Offline heyy13

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 01:50:43 am
But cooler!

Yeah, i've got no critique i'm just popping in to say i loved both of the most recent updates. I'm learning alot about useing the pallet by watching you work. Keep it up! :)

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 06:21:48 pm
Simplified/refined flame effects, wanting a more iconic look, rather than realistic. Cut the smoke, it was too cluttering/noisy. Tried to enhance motion of flames, increase powerful appearance.
The whole sword is meant to look ethereal, energized, powerful, etc. Purposely used contrasty high saturation, bright colors to assist in that. Hilt might get some attention now. It's 9 colors are nearly decided.

Offline Redshrike

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #10 on: September 25, 2009, 03:24:58 am
I absolutely love what you've done with the blade and with the glow in general.  The only thing that bugs me is the hilt; there are a few places where black meets really bright tints, which makes it look kinda jagged.  I know that you're going for a sort of bright, high-contrasty sort of look, but it doesn't quite seem to work there.

Offline Chris2balls

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 07:26:14 pm
More flare please (around the flames)! I'm not sure about this but have you tried adding a lighter shade to the flame (blue or white)?
I'm very much looking forward to progress!
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Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 10:30:47 pm
More flare please (around the flames)! I'm not sure about this but have you tried adding a lighter shade to the flame (blue or white)?
I'm very much looking forward to progress!

Do you really think the flame effect is lacking in some way? As in needing to convey a more powerful energetic appearance? For a generic claymore type sword rendered upright and symmetrical I think the level of dynamic energy emitting from it is practical. It could be better, but my ROI is limiting me . . . as usual.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #13 on: September 27, 2009, 03:56:17 pm
Takin' a crack at the buster. What you see I only know to call a lightmap, it's just a quick greyscale continuous-tone (non pixel art) rendering of the object with how I think I want light to fall on it. Once I have this decided I just need to color it in basically. The buster will also have some sort of odd firey effects on it, which I've given no thought to yet.



Claymore isn't done yet . . .

Offline Chris2balls

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 05:01:57 pm

I quickly messed around with it. I think you should definitely play with white, yellow and blue to give more depth to the flames. Up to you.
Looking forwrad to progress on the Claymore!
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Offline TPoe

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 11:56:08 pm
Is it supposed to be a NES controller?

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #16 on: September 28, 2009, 12:11:25 am
I quickly messed around with it. I think you should definitely play with white, yellow and blue to give more depth to the flames. Up to you.
Looking forwrad to progress on the Claymore!

Chris, I think your results have some prospect. I did at one time try some white "highlighting" in the larger yellow fire areas. I'll keep your advice in mind when I resume claymoring. Thanks for the edit!

@ TPoe:  Yep. If it's not obvious, that's a good thing. In fact, I think I'll make it even more obscure. Right now it's too apparent.
Here's some ref:



Is everyone peachy with the new revised Buster Sword design? I don't think it's distracting anymore.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 12:12:59 am by Mathias »

Offline Pixelized

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 03:02:18 am
I have to say that I love your weapons. First the hammers and now the swords. Love em. Keep up the good work.

Offline TPoe

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 05:13:12 am
Well I kinda noticed it was the controller when I saw the first post a while ago, i just was more confident now haha.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #19 on: September 29, 2009, 01:05:53 pm
More claymore polish. Started some buster coloring, searching for a flame effect gimmick, trying to reinforce strong solid angular nature of the object by using it's sharp angles where I can. It's lookin' a little too 80's at the moment! I'm going to attempt to ignore realistic color choices and go with more interesting unpredictable colors, but they still need to make sense. I think I'd like to try a gradient effect, with the top being more illuminated than the bottom, since the object is so big I think this may help reduce visual monotony.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 12:58:03 pm by Mathias »

Offline #36005A

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #20 on: September 29, 2009, 10:46:37 pm
Just a personal opinion: I'm not sure the buster needs the flame effect at all, but if you do add it, I'd recommend not trying to go with "more interesting unpredictable colors". Interesting, yes, but not intentionally unpredictable (or interesting only because they're unpredictable). I think so far the green and pink against the strong blue sheen of the buster really weaken its sharp-cut impact. It would be interesting to see what you could do to the buster without adding a flame effect but just polishing the sword alone.

Offline Chris2balls

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #21 on: October 02, 2009, 09:03:46 pm
This is looking great, the handle on the first sword is wonderful, and progress is looking good on the claymore, I'm really digging the colour scheme. I'll try and give some thought on the flames cos they're bugging me for now, and I'll wait for more progress on the claymore before saying more.
Waiting impatiently for progress!
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Offline PypeBros

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #22 on: October 03, 2009, 05:57:35 pm
The coder's mastersword is likely to be engraved with ancient spells in binary, btw ;)

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #23 on: October 05, 2009, 10:36:56 pm
Gaaah pype, you stole my thunder! The planned concept for the master sword differs but does use 1's and 0's as binary.


Claymore got neglected. Next update it should be dangerously close to finality. At least it's palette is finally established. Even if the colors themselves change, at least their placement is pretty much solid. Palette swaps are easy now.
Buster is . . . confused. Looks like freakin' water. I chose blue as it's primary color, and I think I'm finding that when you stray from established colors for established motifs, you better stick to what is standard as far as shapes go or else risk confusion - so for the next update the flames will be less like liquid and more like typical flames . . . maybe.

@ #36005A  - each weapon requires some sort of particle elemental effect so it's associated "elemental power" is evident. You might be right in that I should minimize the effects, though. But knowing me, and that being the funnest part of these, I'll probably go overboard.


Offline ptoing

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #24 on: October 05, 2009, 10:48:23 pm
What you have on the buster sword atm obfuscates it's shape. Perhaps something like lighting would work well for it?
Otherwise I have to say I like how this looks so far. You used the EGA 6bit colours quite nice. :)
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 06:02:52 pm
Claymore - altered misty glowy junk in bg, still too sandy looking, too gritty, needs more smoothness, may constitute changing colors a bit.

Buster - more fire effect confusion, I still get a water and electricity vibe and not enough fire, too busy, needs tones down, it looks like it's summoning a firestorm and has depth as if there are fireballs far away and some close - this overcomplicates and pretends to be a scene when all I want is a single object with little to no foreground/background definition, fire effects overpowers sword itself whereas the claymore's flames seem to complement it well enough. I do like the downward angle mimicking the blade's angle quite a bit, that's a nice unifying trick. Whole thing too monocromatic, need some better highlighting shades, the green backlight gets lost.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:29:50 pm by Mathias »

Offline McClaneGames

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #26 on: October 07, 2009, 11:52:52 pm
The NES controller looks a bit strange in the last one, maybe it could benefit from a tiny bit of dithering...
The fireballs? are a bit distracting, however once polished they'll probably look pretty nice.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #27 on: October 08, 2009, 08:46:55 am
The NES controller looks a bit strange in the last one
And btw, if you deviate from NES and give it a second D-PAD, it'll turn into a perfect coder joke about how C++ (suggested by dpads) is a powerful but heavy tool through which you'll blow your whole leg if you shoot yourself in the foot. ^_^

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #28 on: October 20, 2009, 08:06:01 pm
small update to stay alive, still searching for fire . . .



I like the angularness and the engergyness, will probably just refine now, though the buster itself looks like crap, still wanting more of a gradiently shaded approach. It may be too much to have both sword and flame gradating, may have to just pick one or the other.

Offline politopo

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #29 on: October 21, 2009, 05:17:12 am
I humbly suggest for the fire: old shape & new color.

Offline Gil

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #30 on: October 21, 2009, 12:28:44 pm
Politopo: this is EGA, is there really another color that works better?

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #31 on: October 21, 2009, 12:52:20 pm
Buster is to be primarily blue. Entire EGA palette is in first post.

Offline HughSpectrum

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #32 on: October 21, 2009, 05:09:57 pm
I do think the handle on the buster sword could be toned down in shininess to work better at the idea of the elemental blade attached to a painted base.

As long as you're using the NES controller, I would make the end of the Buster Sword handle resemble the plug connector for NES controllers.

Offline Redshrike

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #33 on: October 22, 2009, 02:03:20 am
I agree with politopo that the old shape was really going somewhere (though it needed to be a little less busy), and the new one doesn't really have the same appeal.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 02:07:01 am
I agree with politopo that the old shape was really going somewhere (though it needed to be a little less busy), and the new one doesn't really have the same appeal.

From post 23?

Offline Redshrike

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #35 on: October 22, 2009, 02:28:47 am
No, the one after that, with the tufts and streaks (especially the streaks) of flame.  That looked like a really good approach to me, needing only more detail and balance in the composition.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #36 on: October 22, 2009, 03:20:50 am
arggg, but it's so busy. I kind of agree with #36005A who prefers little to no effects embellishment for the buster. Gotta remember, the master sword has to not just compete with, but appear far superior to the buster so if the buster gets crazy amounts of fire effects, then the master will need much more, probably too much. The firestorm idea takes too much focus away from the buster, I'll try and convince you next update . . .

Offline EvilEye

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #37 on: October 22, 2009, 05:34:25 am
Nice stuff. You definitely have a knack for effects :y:

There is something confusing going on with the grip on the buster sword. I don't think that shadow shouldn't go progressively farther to the right. I would do an edit but I am too burned out from working on my own stuff right now.

Offline politopo

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #38 on: October 22, 2009, 09:06:55 am
Yes, I was referring to post 25... anyway, if you prefer to keep near to the last design, why not trying to put the fire on the back of the sword? like a trail... It will also give a nice secondary lightsource.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #39 on: December 14, 2009, 03:58:21 am
-Minute claymore refinements - mainly in increasing backglow 'round flameyness
-Completed buster lighting, effects rendering, lookin' done isn't it?
-Master Sword beginnings - gonna have to fight fire with fire to outdo the buster's implications of power if the Master is to be dominant, so I thought something beyond typical flames/fire and something more along the lines of symbols/runes arrayed around the hilt might do the trick, most likely mixed with some fire.



Thanks, Evileye.

But the Buster effects are too ambiguous and crazy - would like it better if the fire was more obviously fire. Not sure about dither usage to blend steps in fire effect's shading. The two holes near base look like protrusions, not holes, due to how the light hits them.
Keeping to the ubiquitous trendwhore opposing lighting trick, it works well here I guess, I like the high contrast green on dark blue/black. And as ptoing spotted, major shape obfuscation is still occurring, but that seems a normal result.

BRISINGR!!!!!    aahhhhhh
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 11:49:38 pm by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #40 on: December 14, 2009, 08:05:44 am
wow it's cool... but please put some texture in hat fire...   ;D

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #41 on: December 14, 2009, 12:47:30 pm
If you have a spare colour for the first 'fire' sword(Which it looks like you do, seeings as the same purple is repeated twice on the pallet) you may want to add something akin to orange into the flame only(Or to the whole sword , but that wouldn't be my first suggestion), this'd distinguish it from the blade and add a buffer between the reds and yellows creating a more smooth and most likely more 'fire-like' effect.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #42 on: December 15, 2009, 12:01:58 am
Hey, politopo. Hmm, texture. The buster is a project that's breached massive overtime already, how about an edit to convey better what you mean. The fire effects already pull so much attention as is.

Sorry Vampire, the palette was just wrong, I fixed it though. I understand your point. Yet these blades are supposed to look fancy and ethereal. But I do want readability.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #43 on: December 15, 2009, 12:41:24 am
Buster looks nice. If you extend the aa on the cyan to white sheen to 3 instead of 1 pixels (same colour) it looks much smoother.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #44 on: December 15, 2009, 01:46:43 am
Shouldn't you just get rid of those green pixels in the holes so that they look like holes and not like knobs? There shouldn't be substance there for the green pixels to be bouncing off of, so that's why they don't look like holes.

Crappy Edit to demonstrate:
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 01:54:37 am by TVboyCanti »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #45 on: December 15, 2009, 05:13:30 am
I'll give that a go, ptoing. But then it's not really AA anymore is it? Rather it would be more like banding, which in the case of streaky reflections, isn't bad.

TVboyCanti, yeah that does well to make them appear more as holes than bump-outs, though less flashy . . . oh no. Just for the record, the holes are supposed to be perfect cirlces in a flat piece of metal, the green you removed was meant to look like little lens flares sparkles, like the blue ones that remain still. Same idea applied to the shiny corners of NES controller hand-guard - hazy shininess.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #46 on: December 15, 2009, 07:04:22 am
ok, this is my take on fire... maybe is a little distant from the flow your original was conveying... also changed a little the colours, but using yours:



just one hint: please don't dither fire. It becomes like whool, but should look more like satin.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #47 on: December 15, 2009, 12:05:25 pm
Whatwhat? It would still be AA and not banding at all.



The longer the break which you AA is the longer your AA has to be, a single pixel does virtually nothing in those cases.
And if you just have 1 colour inbetween then you just make a few pixels worth of that. Still AA, not banding.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #48 on: December 15, 2009, 03:41:17 pm
Ah, thank you for the visual suggestion, politopo. You did a great job on your edit, but the texturing seems to imply something more like distress or grunge to me. You don't think dirthering flame is ever appropriate? Yes, dithering typically creates the unwanted "sandy" texture, but 90% of the flame is smooth so I thought it would balance out, despite it's bandiness.


Crap, of course, ptoing! That's what you were talking about. For some stupid reason I was imagining you were suggesting to basicallly give the streaky white reflections a 3 pixels wide stroke of the AA color I was using. Ok ok, I fullly agree. Yours is way smoother, how did I not think to do that, geeze. . . lesson learned. Spank you!

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #49 on: December 31, 2009, 05:36:23 am
-Buster - minor fix'ins
-Master - don't tell Link, please

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #50 on: January 14, 2010, 06:45:47 am
keeping 'er on drip so the pipes don't freeze

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #51 on: January 14, 2010, 10:11:23 am
These are very pretty, the shininess on the buster sword is delicious.

Both the master and buster swords have hella short blades, I think the master swords blade could be a bit thinner also, and you're missing the triforce (Though, you probably just haven't gotten to it yet)

I do think the light on the master sword looks more powerful than the buster, like a more controlled "godly" power.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #52 on: January 15, 2010, 12:09:28 am
face is the best part, don't remove it
' _ '

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #53 on: January 15, 2010, 02:35:51 am
Looks like he's doing the wind waker master sword which is shorter and wider than the regular master sword.

These are all looking incredibly stunning. The colours are so fantastic.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #54 on: January 15, 2010, 06:10:59 pm
Absolutely stunning. Amazing work, great colors, good progress. Altogether, I have one word to describe this: epic.
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane." - Akira Kurosawa

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #55 on: January 20, 2010, 04:14:02 am
Okay, I've noticed this since when you started working on these swords, and I'm surprised that nobody pointed it out yet.

The light / energy around the buster sword blends with the actual silhouette of the sword.



The shape of the sword is obscured by flashiness.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #56 on: January 20, 2010, 04:40:34 am
Well, I'm not really going for accuracy on the buster and master swords, both designs have changed quite a bit over time. In researching them both, I found many variations and I've just sorta combined features from each as I saw fit/thought looked good. My goal was only to evoke the basic design of each one.
I've chibi-ified them a bit, the proportions aren't faithful.

Actually Rydin, ptoing beat you to it, hehe.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #57 on: January 20, 2010, 05:08:22 am
Quote
Actually Rydin, ptoing beat you to it, hehe.

Haha. That's what I get for pretending to read.
Man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #58 on: February 12, 2011, 10:25:57 am
*RESURRECTION*  fizzbang




First two done.

3rd and last one under way. Think I finally decided on a direction for it's shading - a darkened silhouette giving priority to the massive green fiery inferno flameyness coming from the blade. Gonna be a crazy amount of pixelling. Will be the largest pixelled object for me.

Oh, and I'm no longer constraining myself to a certain number of EGA palette colors, I don't care anymore, I'll use 'em ALL if it suits me, for this last sword.

Ideas/thoughts/concerns/dismay/rhetoric/sarcasm welcome.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 06:12:37 am by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #59 on: February 13, 2011, 05:58:36 am


wow. i am super excited to see the master sword finished, these are all looking incredible.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #60 on: February 14, 2011, 01:58:39 am
So, so so glad to see this thread active again!  This has to be one of my favorite pixel series ever.  It's hard to critique at this point, beyond my thoughts that you've taken the design in a great direction--it's gonna be heck to render, but I'm really looking forward to seeing the results.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #61 on: February 14, 2011, 03:57:03 am
WOW... My eye are tearing with joy... sure they have nicks and nacks but still, Amazing work you...

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #62 on: February 14, 2011, 04:38:54 am
I too am glad to see this resurrected.

The new green flamestuff seems a bit too similar in color to that of the middles'. I really liked the purpley color scheme you posted more than a year ago.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #63 on: February 14, 2011, 06:08:58 am
@ Tuna, whuzzup!

@ Redshrike, looks like you de-lurked, too. This one won't disappoint, I'm planning a ton of work to go into it. I'm now letting myself use the entire palette so it'll even be high color count, compounding the workload to complete it. But, hey, it's the master sword!

@ Hellopeople . . . sorry!  (thx)

Hmm, *head-smack observation, @ Mush, thanks. I would much rather differentiate the master from the buster more. And though I did try other color schemes for the master flames I settled on green, dunno why. I now wish I hadn't used both blue and green for the buster cuz now all primaries are gone. Dangit. Yer probably right, those pinks/ purples may come in real handy now. . .
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 06:12:27 am by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #64 on: February 14, 2011, 11:45:48 pm
New color scheme. Has a much better more even luminosity ramp. Achieves a more interesting effect. Gonna try to give those flames as 3D an appearance as I can. The buster is so flat.



It's kind of a bad habit because I think it biases me to painting methodologies that are sometimes less than intuitive, but I tend to try and figure out exactly what kind of real world physical material something is made out of so I know just how to "render" it, whenever I set out with something new. I'm just gonna let myself go with that tendency here - I'm thinkin' I want the sword itself to be shiny refractive translucent crystal. The whole thing. Not just the blade or hilt. Makes me think of Helm's coloring techniques. Gonna try for some interesting coloring clusterage.
Trick is gonna be to keep it's form defined enough to not be annoying to try and pick out. It's already getting lost. Will need some good crystal lighting ref, too.
 
But anyway, with these decisions, I'm confident the master will easily be the dominant one in the bunch, as it's meant.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 06:50:26 am by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #65 on: February 15, 2011, 05:06:16 pm
Mathias - Im not sure if you use this technique in your regular production flow... but even if so i felt it might be beneficial to illustrate this point. Values.



this is your true test of your image being able to 'read'. Off the bat i have to say i love the designs, theyre seriously great, you can immediately recognize whose swords they are :P. Claymore's blade's values blend in quite closely with the fire, while it looks cool with color, this illustrates that perhaps some of the value choices arent as best as they could be. the blade quickly flattens and the white outline effect to indicate its sharpness doesnt quite work anymore. 

Check the buster stword - i think the balance here is much stronger overall, the hit flattens a good bit, however, as the shadow side's reflective light is the same value as the highlighted side. also the lack of darker formation around the bottom of the hilts handle flattens out the depth even further. (noe the good use of black up near the hilits neck where it attaches to the blade has a better volume read because of the stronger blacks used). Also a bit worrying is the lack of value blending from the whitest 'bursts' of white coming off the blade. It does do a nice job of making it look 'overexposed', but i think just a little bit of softening there in its value transition will make it look smoother, which should aide the read of the energy to the eyes.

moving onto your latest update,



This looks really cool and i like the concept youre going with. Master sword is kindof supposed to be a sword of light, but this makes it look as if ganon had corrupted it, its got a great/cool evil vibe.

Check the values though to help decide how you want to continue rendering it. The blade's edge is getting slightly lost in the energy enveloping it. i think your sword will have a stronger read if the blades edge is darker overall and those whiter values help silhouette the darker edge of the sword. Id like to see the energy's motion that of the dynamism the claymore and buster sword have as well :)

Notice that your hilt has a very interesting 'molten metal' look to it in the black/white view. i think that has an awesome quality to it, just a bit of cleaning up in its shapes to make it a bit more crisp and consistent will make that area quite stunning.


on a side note, these are rather large pieces... hats off to you :)

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #66 on: February 16, 2011, 04:38:40 am
Hmm, some good information and reminders there steve, thanks a bunch for taking the time.

Ya know, I used to do a lot more with a view to good greyscales but I kinda got away from it. A few years back I posted the C64 palette I used Photoshop to greyscale because I was confused as to why it didn't turn into a nice even grey ramp like it's supposed to (the C64 pal consists of nice gradual luma pairs). See my study image here.

It turned out PS's greyscale conversion sucks and is almost random. ptoing informed me of this. He, using Pro Motion easily converts the C64 pal and gets the right result. Since then I noticed how confusing it was to accurately determine a pixel's true luminosity; darkness/lightness value. I just gave up and started just eyeballing everything.


Like, see here. This animation:



The "Photoshop  : (" frame is actually what you posted, but after it I added the Pro Motion version. See the confusing difference? What the heck. What do you trust?


Your point remains intact, though - use the grey version, no color bias affecting you, to really get down to the roots of your image's contrast. Putting color aside to see things more clearly can be greatly beneficial. One of the more striking reveals from your test is how flat the buster hilt really is. That's a little surprising. Or is that greyscale conversion trustable? You usin' PS, too?

Do you think the firey effects obscuring the blades' actual edges is hurting them as designs? A little ambiguity used correctly can be fun sometimes. But other times, it's just annoying hehe.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 07:29:53 pm by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #67 on: February 16, 2011, 06:05:48 am
The best grayscale is to switch to L a/b colormode and just tick the L channel...

The automatic grayscale function sucks because it fucks with all the R/G/B values together since a pixel has all 3 informations, instead of the pure L mode

It's actually easy, not confusing :P just need to know about colormodes



« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 06:11:52 am by Elk »
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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #68 on: February 16, 2011, 03:05:08 pm
Quote
It turned out PS's greyscale conversion sucks and is almost random. ptoing informed me of this. He, using Pro Motion easily the converts the C64 pal and gets the right result. Since then I noticed how confusing it was to accurately determine a pixel's true luminosity; darkness/lightness value. I just gave up and started just eyeballing everything.

You know - when i was doin a quick greyscale preview, and looking back at the regular color one... i thought i was going crazy because certain values seemed way off to their greyscale counterpart....

Quote
The best grayscale is to switch to L a/b colormode and just tick the L channel...

The automatic grayscale function sucks because it fucks with all the R/G/B values together since a pixel has all 3 informations, instead of the pure L mode

It's actually easy, not confusing Tongue just need to know about colormodes

yes thanks mr elk. That is quite easy indeed.

I sure look pretty foolish ;D - but if you need any 'help' or 'hints' on how things are 'looking', doing this b/w test is always a sure bet to gauge values, given that youre looking at a reliable representation of the actual values, lol.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #69 on: February 16, 2011, 03:14:27 pm
Quote
It turned out PS's greyscale conversion sucks and is almost random. ptoing informed me of this. He, using Pro Motion easily the converts the C64 pal and gets the right result. Since then I noticed how confusing it was to accurately determine a pixel's true luminosity; darkness/lightness value. I just gave up and started just eyeballing everything.

You know - when i was doin a quick greyscale preview, and looking back at the regular color one... i thought i was going crazy because certain values seemed way off to their greyscale counterpart....

Quote
The best grayscale is to switch to L a/b colormode and just tick the L channel...

The automatic grayscale function sucks because it fucks with all the R/G/B values together since a pixel has all 3 informations, instead of the pure L mode

It's actually easy, not confusing Tongue just need to know about colormodes

yes thanks mr elk. That is quite easy indeed.

I sure look pretty foolish ;D - but if you need any 'help' or 'hints' on how things are 'looking', doing this b/w test is always a sure bet to gauge values, given that youre looking at a reliable representation of the actual values, lol.

I showed the best way to make a b/w image with little to no value loss.

If you want to tell me something "indirectly", do it via PM.
instead of making me look dumb.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 03:18:37 pm by Elk »
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Offline Helm

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #70 on: February 16, 2011, 03:29:31 pm
Take it easy, I don't think st0ven was trying that at all.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #71 on: February 16, 2011, 07:24:12 pm
Quote
I showed the best way to make a b/w image with little to no value loss.

If you want to tell me something "indirectly", do it via PM.
instead of making me look dumb.

no quite the opposite! youve illuminated quite a fundamental difference between a desaturation adjustment layer vs keeping only the luminosity channel visible. it made me feel dumb for betraying my instinct that the values didnt quite match up... which led me to post a faulty critique on values in mathias' piece. im giving you credit and my thanks, sorry for the ambiguity in my response  ;D Its you thats made me look dumb, and rightfully so. We all learn new stuff every day though, im not ashamed.

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DESTROY THOMAS KNOLL

Reply #72 on: February 17, 2011, 08:25:05 pm
Elk's PMS'ing. (not to be a know it all, but I've been using that LAB method for a while, too. Did try it a few years ago during my greyscale confusion, it didn't help [see below].)

Steve, your advice wasn't "faulty", IMO. Glad I could help enlighten you on that little quirk with Photoshop. There's many ways to remove color from an image in PS and they all give different results. It's hilarious. Even the Image > Adjustment > Black & White function defaults to something different from other methods. It just proves the name Photoshop is very fitting - it's for photos; full color work, etc.


Alrighty then, yes, the LAB greyscale trick is very good. Good for photos. For precise indexed art, not so much. Here's what it does to the C64 palette, which you can easily check against the REAL greyscale values below. Notes on my PS workflow to get to the result in the image. Behold:



(last step especially crucial)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 08:29:56 pm by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #73 on: February 28, 2011, 04:49:37 am
Hilt detail. Striving for a nice reflectivey crystally icey look. The big flat blade will be an interesting challenge to make look translucent like the hilt.



I want the flames more chaotic and maelstromish.

I'm simply using any color in the palette that works now. Forget color count control, who needs it. This sword was originally supposed to have significantly more colors than the other two anyway, to give it even a technical superiority.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 04:55:47 am by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #74 on: March 01, 2011, 05:13:58 am
I think you got the crystal effect down pretty good. The very bottom of the hilt is kind of confusing though - it kind of looks like the hilt is melting into a goo.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #75 on: March 02, 2011, 10:05:59 pm
WHOA! This is EPIC, man! I just read the entire thread and I am loving these swords so much. I really liked the leftmost sword and now the master sword is looking amazing too. Sorry that I don't have any critique, I'm a real noob.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #76 on: March 02, 2011, 10:23:55 pm
The only critique I have is that the grip doesn't have much depth to it. The detailing on it does, but it all looks like it's coming off of a flat surface rather than part of a cylinder.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #77 on: March 08, 2011, 09:35:55 pm
Thanks Trough and Shrub. And Mush and Phlakes, your critiques are very useful, thanks for the observations - they're the type of things you just stop seeing after looking at something for so long. Fresh eyes. Update soon.

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #78 on: March 13, 2011, 05:23:28 pm
Hey, where did my post go - did someone delete it? If so, could they please tell me why?

Looking forward to the next update anyway. I agree with Phlakes, though; some work on the hilt to try and make it more cylindrical would be awesome. Loving your colour choices, by the way.

Offline Helm

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #79 on: March 13, 2011, 11:49:24 pm
Hi, Shrub. The post you made reading the following:

Quote
:-[

Wow.

These blow my mind. Keep doing whatever you're doing, because it rocks.

was deleted on the grounds that it's not critique. Pixelation has a FAQ you should have read before posting. Be sure to read it now.

Offline Jad

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #80 on: March 14, 2011, 12:46:32 pm
Hilt detail. Striving for a nice reflectivey crystally icey look. The big flat blade will be an interesting challenge to make look translucent like the hilt.



I want the flames more chaotic and maelstromish.

I'm simply using any color in the palette that works now. Forget color count control, who needs it. This sword was originally supposed to have significantly more colors than the other two anyway, to give it even a technical superiority.



Quoting your whole post for ease of comparison purposesesese

Just tried making it more chaotic and maelstromish. The spirals feel to me like they're going the wrong way! If the energy is travelling upwards and we state that the wispy smoke/fire like energy travels faster the closer it is to the core / the hotter it is, the slower wisps would get pushed away to the side, outwards, and not inwards, since inwards is towards more energy.

thus the direcion of the spirals should be outwards FROM the blade.

I tried to fragmentarize (this must be a real word) the flames/wisps into bigger accumulated masses that define the spiral more by direction of the clusters rather than lines that are then softened up by bands of color. ' 3 ' since that looks a bit pillowshadey.

Didn't touch the handle, but for compositional purposes couln't you change the balance of light reflected in the handle too? The middle of the handle could be almost black and then the reflections would appear more and more intensely towards the bottom. I feel that's how it should look more, and I'm sure it'd give a more tangible feeling of transcluency to the blade. I also think it'd be good, compositionally, have the bottom very densely filled with color, because that would give the eye a 'base' for the sword, where the color denseness from the flames would return in another part of the image, giving the image balance.

My mind is in a complete jumblemess-mode today so I'm afraid I might not be making as much sense as I'd like. Ask about anything that my ADD-mind didn't let me explain properly enough. CHEERZ
' _ '

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #81 on: March 20, 2011, 04:20:11 am
All very good points! I think you just saved this from mediocrity. I was ignoring my feelings of dissatisfaction with especially the flames in order to just push this to completion, but not now. I'm going to push those crappy pillowy WIPy flames into a much more intuitive organic natural mess. Thanks for showing me the way!



[EDIT]  Removed the GIF image, it wasn't animating, no idea why. No biggy, the image was just Jad's version and my last version alternating visibility for a clear idea of what/how Jad changed things. Next update will be significant, though . . .
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 04:27:30 am by Mathias »

Offline Phlakes

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #82 on: March 20, 2011, 04:25:03 am
Want to see it, but...

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #83 on: September 03, 2011, 02:13:56 am
9 years later . . .


Very WIP. Thanks again to Jad.


Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #84 on: September 03, 2011, 06:32:01 am
Just keepin' this thread stocked with wippy crap, I find it motivating.



Swirling pink hot death plumes of discord. Jad are you proud of me yet? Jad . . .






jad . . .

Offline Redshrike

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #85 on: September 04, 2011, 03:50:57 am
Yay!  My favorite thread is alive again!
I really like your new spirally flames, but I feel like the top spiral should curl back more so that it's centered over the tip of the blade.  That would make it more balanced without affecting the dynamism of the swirls.  Anyway, it is a pretty awesome piece of work!  It gives a nice sense of a glowing crystal

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #86 on: September 04, 2011, 04:59:11 am
haha favorite thread, thx

OY, that suggests significant re-pixelling, but I see what you're coming from. And I did design for asymmetry by allowing the top spiral to veer left while there's a large spiral on the right to counterbalance, visually.

A test


Indecision.

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #87 on: September 04, 2011, 06:50:16 am
beddy time, eroding away the roughness



On one hand I regret making the sword glass/crystal because I would've loved to create a detailed master sword, but on the other hand the commonness of the master sword is minimized into something more symbolic instead, and also much simpler which is good.

I'm starting to feeling the burn of bad ROI on this, so expediting completion now. Sadly, this'll only mean that the Development Weapons as a set are only 1/2 done. 2 sets remain. ZOINKS, SCOOB

Offline jams0988

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #88 on: September 04, 2011, 06:07:39 pm
Heh, color me impressed. I'm really loving the contrast with the near-black sword, and the awesome crazy rainbow flames around it. It's great, from technical and aesthetic standpoints. =D

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #89 on: September 05, 2011, 07:46:58 am
Thank you, Jams.



I'm starting to think the sword should be much more silhouetted; even less refraction detail in the sword itself. . .

Offline Crow

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #90 on: September 06, 2011, 04:02:34 pm
I'm starting to think the sword should be much more silhouetted; even less refraction detail in the sword itself. . .

Exactly what I wanted to post. The blade gets pretty lost in there. Otherwise, nice design, amazing colors.
Discord: Ennea#9999

Offline Mathias

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #91 on: September 14, 2011, 05:33:28 am
Significant revision.



I think the sword itself fell victim to my lack of self control and tendency to randomly eye-candify things - the numerous refractions and highlights got out of hand. Taken a more design-conscious Form Follows Function approach.

Just need to add some little light effects back into the sword's shape, but will try to leave it mainly a high-contrast silhouette. That's the thinking. Completion currently close.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 07:38:36 am by Mathias »

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Re: Coder Dept. Weapons

Reply #92 on: September 26, 2011, 08:43:26 pm