AuthorTopic: Anatomy Break  (Read 25387 times)

Offline xhunterko

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Anatomy Break

on: June 09, 2009, 07:47:23 pm
Hello!

It seems I've been keeping something from you. Heh heh. Anyways, I felt a little uncomftable putting things up here becuase it feels like I get abused, and like it. Okay, sorry, that's enough. I've been working on a little game (ha ha, little) now for some months and am pleased with the way it's turning out. The engine is good. The first song is okay. The gui is okay. And I'm okay with the graphics. But they're bothering me now for some reason. Mainly because I want to try and animate a running for the characters and am completely stumped as to how and make it look right. I'll probably end up giving them a scissors like look without any bending to make it easier. Anyway. The first sheet contains all the little sprites that are going to be in the game. Plus some random stuff that I've done lately. You may recognize the below comic that I've pixeled. I would like a little crit on that as well. I don't know what I'm worried about. Which is a good enough reason to ask for crit. Here's the pics:

Protagonist


Chained


Rehash


detail


num3


Update2


Update


Light source study


Speed pixel (minus background and protagonist)


Modified


Next


vehicle1


pose


sprite or fail, I dunno


Walk attempt


TouchUp


Reduction


P.A.L


protagonist rework


comments later



based on avacado's edit





CnC please
Thanks
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 07:22:39 pm by xhunterko »

Offline Avocado

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 11:35:21 pm


I would have edited some more stuff but im kind of short on time (I lost track of time while editing this, haha), hopefully you see sort of what im trying to get across. My edit is 6 colors (four on the character and two on the gun), your original sprite had some repitition of colors and a lot of very similar hues, and did not seem like he was "guarding" the base.  I used your colors and some slight modifications and changed his pose.

I brought the gun arm back because it seemed like a large gun, and made his other arm a support for it, and I bent his knees a little to make him seem more alert.  I wasn't sure if the head was supposed to be a helmet or a head wrapping of some sort, so I gave him a wrap. I liked your eyes but the way I changed the head they came out looking kind of weird, im sure you can figure out how you want to do it.  Your legs are also a bit conical, seeming really thin at the top and expanding down, and your waistline seemed kind of low. This might have been the reason you had difficulty with movement animations.
I feel like you might want to keep an outline around it though because I tried setting it against a darker background and it comes out looking hard to read. Upping the contrast might help with that, im not too sure.  I think mine is also off balance and leaning backwards a bit but hopefully the ideas get across.

I feel like most of these crits go for your protagonist as well, I feel like he could do with a more energetic pose.
Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 12:53:43 am by Avocado »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #2 on: June 10, 2009, 02:04:56 am
Hello!

Thank you for the edit. I really like the way that's headed. I was kinda afraid about something being said about the outlines but it seems like they'd be okay in your version. I also noticed that you rotated the torso a bit as well. I had a little trouble shading that mask. I was trying to figure out how to shade it and get the mask look at the same time. I agree about the legs. Though they may be a tad too long in the edit. And it still has the same light source as well. I'll see if I can't work something out like that.

I was also wondering about the background. I was trying for a seemless tiling when it came to this one. I like what I've got for now. But that only means there could be errors in there that I'm not seeing. I'm also wondering about the background items and objects. I was going for an old pc/dos game look. I'm wanting to know if I have the same style going or if there's anything wrong there as well.

Again, thank you for the edit.

Hopefully I'll have time to work on it more this week. Looking forward to more CnC if it's needed.

Offline Gil

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #3 on: June 10, 2009, 05:45:48 pm
For critiques, just look at all your other threads. People do not stand with their legs in an upside down V.

I see the cat character returning, so why don't you post this in the other thread?

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #4 on: June 10, 2009, 10:08:33 pm
@Gil: Reason 1: That thread is old.
Reason 2: People hate necro-bumping.
Reason 3: Am I really that predictable? If your talking about my avatar, no. Any changes applied to this character will go across the board.

rework based on avacado's edit


Do I have the V look fixed in the new edit though? I tried to avoid some of the common problems I have. Things like shading and 45' angle legs thing and other problems. Anyway, hopefully I've solved the v thing. I'll take a look at it some more and post any changes. And thank you for the coment.

As always, CnC please.




(Really hope I changed things here. sometimes it feels like i'm goin in circles.)

Offline Avocado

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #5 on: June 11, 2009, 12:57:04 am


EDIT: I feel like what I wrote originally was too harsh and not clear enough so i'm going to rewrite it.

I did the limb silhoulette thing to sort of show you what my biggest concern is:  You seemed to have changed the coloring of the sprite more than the shape of it and the limbs still all look very similar and are still kind of shapeless.

I feel like the biggest problem you have is that your limbs are stiff and dont seem bendable. It might help if you think about them in terms of yourself and how your own limbs might work.  Right now it seems like you're just drawing them so that they look like body parts rather than function like them. Another concern of mine is that there's a slight lack of definition and the limbs look kind of blob-like, which I feel that having more discernable joints would help out with as well. 
Also, the way he's holding the gun seems a little uncomfortable to me; is he preparing to fire or just idling?

There's still some trouble with lack of contrast between colors and the eyes are kind of hard to read with the new mask but overall the sprite looks a lot more crisp and less messy. Can you tell me how you're going about doing your outlines? I'm just curious because different parts of your outlines are different colors in some places, it's not a big critique of mine or anything.  I'm also curious about why you chose to make the mask, gloves, and pants grey but the shirt and shoes khaki-ish. Good luck, hope this helps!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 03:56:25 am by Avocado »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #6 on: June 11, 2009, 09:31:33 pm
I'll comment a bit later. off to work now. and before the power goes out.

And thank you for the second edit.


Okay, back. I tried not to follow avacado's edit too closely, but I think I failed in that aspect. I changed the arm pose a little and hopefully it looks correct. As cute as your edit looks, I really don't like the two-color style that's going on there. I also wrapped the darker color around the eyes and they stand out a bit more. It was supposed to be an idle and a firing stance. But I guess that didn't work out as intended. About the outlines. I was trying to not use any black for them. I'm going for a "choose darkest color" method instead. There's an actual term for it and it's supposed to make it look better for some sprites. The color choices are just that, color choices. He's supposed to be part of a terror group so this is how they identify each other. Plus I don't like cookie cutter generic color types. So, how'd I do?

Your thoughts?
(CnC please)
Thanks.

(There's also a stray lighter shade in the stomach area. I forgot about it and didn't see it until later. I just noticed the front leg looking off a bit as well.)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 05:36:36 am by xhunterko »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 04:37:23 am
Gil is going to hammer me for this one. Oh well.



Here's a second rework of the protagonist. I have now given him two pistols instead of one. (To make the player feel on par with the enemy.) I changed the left side foot slightly because it didn't look right in the last edit. I removed the stray highlight in the stomach area and added a darker tone on the other side instead. I changed the tail count colors. That is bothering me a bit as I'm not sure how to go about shading that properly. I also made sure to make his eyes stand out a bit more by working on the bandana a bit.

Any improvements?
CnC please!

Offline Gil

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #8 on: June 17, 2009, 06:08:59 am
I'm not going to hammer you, I actually think you're slowly moving in the right direction with your art. I'm not, however, going to do an extensive edit. I think that some pointers in the right direction might be more helpful.

Think about how to apply the following concepts:

Contrast - The soldier is lacking contrast mainly in the brown areas
Shading - The guns cast shadows, the arm casts shadows, etc
Material - Metal is shiny, clothes are dull, try to play with the palette
Cohesion - The colours are all separated. Try to work some grays into the brown and vice versa, try to pull the ramps together.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #9 on: June 17, 2009, 08:02:34 pm
I think that material and cohesion are probably the hardest two for me to get right. Contrast and shading are something that I can easily look up. Color ramps was another thing that was stated as a problem for my pieces before and I still don't udnerstand it. I'll have to look those  up later.

Thanks!

(As for the hammer reference, I was refering to the return of the cat character. Which you had mentioned in your first post.)

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #10 on: June 17, 2009, 10:49:09 pm
The following is another rework!



What I did was change a bit of the anatomy around a bit. I also fiddled some with the foot shading. I did some various sorts of tweaking by using a clobbering of arne's(?) palettes. I thought that would help address some of the issues. I also did a edit with a black outline and liked it a bit. So I toned it down and only outlined in a few places that I thought needed it.

So, your thoughts?
CnC please!

(I hope I fixed some of the problems that gil mentioned. I think I at least solved the cohesion and shading a bit.)

Offline gandhi420

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 10:57:51 pm
here's a little update i made for fun.



your newest update looks better but i think you're still using too many colors. you need to work on simplifying the shading and unifying the palette.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 11:00:54 pm by gandhi420 »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #12 on: June 20, 2009, 06:11:57 pm
Hello there, and welcome to pixelation! I'm not ignoring you by not responding right away, work is killer. But enough of that. I am not sure why, but I do not like the two color theme that people seem to be trying to point me towards. Perhaps it's cause I'm more used to the newer console classic games rather then the older dos ones. But anyway, I hooked this up into grafix2.0 and did a little color reduction.



8 colors I think. Granted the swap is not perfect, but is this the sort of point that I need to try to get to? I also noticed it left the dark outline. Which helps the sprites stand out a bit more. In an earlier edit I tried to 'use darkest shade' effect as an outline but that made them look softer. I have done a little bit of fiddling with it and trying to get a concept out of it.

CnC please
(btw, grafix2 has some nice palette features, any tips for using them would be appreciated.)

Touch up of the above

18 colors
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 08:43:15 pm by xhunterko »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion (animation up)

Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 06:55:22 am
I am going to kill that title screen in the murder thread. It's really driving me crazy. Aside from that, having liked the shading and all from the previous edits, I decided to try a little on animation. :)



I apologize for the quickness, but my net curfew is coming up and i wanted to post this today. (And I'm ready to crap on the gimp, I don't remember it bieng that annoying to use.) Anyway, I have mainly concentrated on the legs as it is. I have taken out the tail and haven't done any other detail work on it due to difficulty. I'm trying to figure out how to make the legs connect with the body better then they are. (Probably a copy paste error on my part.) And there's something about the shading that's bothering me, I can't seem to get it to look right. I tried to avoid some common problems such as jerky frames, uneven bounces, and swivel hips. How does it look?

CnC please

Offline JWW

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion (animation up)

Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 09:44:37 pm
Here's what I would do with the character. It's a small sprite so readability is key, so I mainly played with that by changing around contrast and lighting. I changed his posture a bit to make it a bit more stable. The colors were heavily saturated so I gave it a bit softer wash while keeping the same scheme and elements that gave the original its character.   :o



edit: image tags aren't really working right now for me so there's the link

http://img60.imageshack.us/i/hunteredit.gif/
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 09:47:21 pm by JWW »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion (animation up)

Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 10:18:11 pm
Dang, that's a nice edit. I think I see what your trying to do there. That's one of the fewer examples of a light source coming from that direction that I've seen. I'm trying to stay within some limits but it couldn't hurt to change some things. I'll play with it over the weekend here and see if I can't come up with something like that. In one of my edits I have a leg darkened. But it didn't stand out in the background I'm using and forgot to change it to a lighter color in this one. Anyway, thank you for the edit!




« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 02:48:22 am by xhunterko »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion (newer edits up, sigh)

Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 06:49:28 am
I think I may be the only person on here to take two steps forward and then regress three steps back! I was able to read a few things before I got interrupted. (Part of this is response to Bengoisha's message.) When I started this re-edit, I kept thinking 'basic shapes, basic shapes'. I hope I haven't utterly failed at tacking excellent advice. What do you think? Sprite or fail?



(as always, cnc please)

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion (newer edits up, sigh)

Reply #17 on: June 30, 2009, 04:28:53 am
Thought I'd try a different pose for an avatar on another site I use. What do you think?



I've also been trying to work on a cop car for a level. It ended up being part van. So I'm gonna have to look up some refs and tuts on that subject. Stupid me.

Offline 32

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #18 on: June 30, 2009, 04:49:15 am
you should really drop the inner outlines or try colouring them (inner and outer), just shade them like you would the rest of the character, except a shade darker, as they stand they are really counter productive in showing the volumes of the character. If you MUST keep the outlines, be consistent and do the headband.

As for this last pose, what's he doing? looks like he could be leaning against a wall, in which case the headband is in the wall and his centre of balance is completely wrong. In any case (his) left leg is too long and out of perspective.

And I'm gonna make the same suggestion that's been hinted at in a few edits, drop the highlight shade, its just noisy and not helping the readability at all.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #19 on: June 30, 2009, 05:32:42 am
I had been doing a darker color outline and wanted to switch back to black. I see that's a bad idea. I'll have to look for references of people leaning against the wall. I should probably do that before I started. I probably should've kept the lesser color form with this one too. I was trying something different for this pose. I'll take a look at some refs and hopefully get it right

Thank you though.

Offline Atnas

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #20 on: June 30, 2009, 02:13:32 pm
I think you might have a much easier time if you were to draw your character on paper, then say, post it in the anatomy thread. While your pixel placement isn't the best, it's not what's hurting this. Even if these were silhouettes, they'd suffer from basic anatomical flaws. Once you get that in order I think it would be time to continue the pixel critique.

It's like painting a bridge that's halfway built and hoping that it will get the people in their cars somewhere. You need to build the bridge then paint it, and the beautiful thing is that you can paint it in whatever color you like. In other words, once you learn better anatomy and foundation skills you'll be able to apply the knowledge to any art form. It's very relevant to pixels.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #21 on: July 01, 2009, 06:47:27 pm
@atnas: I always draw on paper first, I just don't have a scanner to prove it. Anyways, thank you.

I thought I'd try something different. I have this level that is going to be a bridge area. So I thought it wouldn't hurt to try and draw a car or two. I picked this police car. This is also only my second attempt at a car. It was turning into a van so I needed a reference.


REF -> http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/7476705/2/istockphoto_7476705-police-car-with-clipping-path.jpg

I was thinking that perhaps that I suck at anatomy only and might try something a little different for now. My main concern is not he outline or the general shape. I'm worried that it might be too small for the characters, or that I may have accidently pillow shaded it. I think the perspective's okay but I'm not sure what to do about it on the front hood. I'll be trying to work on a humvee next.

Your thoughts?
(CnC please, thanks)

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #22 on: July 05, 2009, 02:09:29 am
Steps:
Found reference, found second reference
Drew sketch as shapes, finished up sketch
Pixeled reference, used sketch for backup
Result:



Your thoughts?
CnC please, thanks in advance :)

Offline 32

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #23 on: July 05, 2009, 04:03:43 am
Have you considered making it larger? going back and doing your other graphics might be a bitch, but it'll be much easier and look much better in the end. There's kind of a sweet spot for every sprite that seems to lend to it perfectly, where your clusters don't just look like noise, and you can fit in all the detail you want.

If not, crits on the current one. Arms way too long, hands and feet too big (one is bigger than the other?). (our) Left foot could be rotated towards us a little more. Head is neckless/chin too low. Still no outline on the headband, maybe get rid of it altogether? unless its really important the extra space could be useful for facial features. One of the legs is the wrong width, I'd suggest widening the right one. Arm connects to shoulder weirdly, move it back, rotate the shoulder. torso could maybe be a pixel longer. Stance seems impractical if he intends to start moving. Lighten the outline of the left knee pad. You should move the closest arm back a bit, seeing as the angle of the shoulders will distance the two arms.

I like the knee pads/shoulder pads, they're actually a useful design choice when trying to show the direction of the limbs.

The car. Firstly, the wheels aren't round. But I really have to ask, what's going on with those segmented grey bits along the top of it? There's banding around most of the outlines, now would be a good time to employ some AA.

Lastly, your ramps overall are quite straight and boring, play around with some hue shifting, read up on some colour theory (there's great thread here)

One more question, actually, do you start with line art, or a silhouette? try just drawing the silhouette in a few different colours for different parts, then go over with your tones, or if your uncomfortable with that, you can go over the silhouette with line art.  It's just a lot easier to play around with a few blobs of colour than with lines.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #24 on: July 05, 2009, 06:20:03 pm
Nice crit, I'll see what else I can work on later. However, one thing always bothered me whenever someone mentions rotation in pixel art. I know about 3d model rotation, I've played with a few of those. I just don't understand the concept of 'rotating' 2d though. Could someone give a quick explanation maybe? As for the sprite, I've fixed the skinny leg. The arms bothered me because I thought they were too short. I can fix that. I'll read through that excellent link a bit later though. (Someone actually explained the term Contrast! 'o'). About the car, the top I think that was supposed to be a perspective thing. I was thinking about getting rid of it but hadn't got that far. I do lineart first, and then fill in colors, then shade. It has to do with the way I draw I think.

So if anyone can give a quick explanation on that rotating thing, that'd be appreciated. I'll search it too, just in case there's a topic somewhere.
Thanks again!

Offline 32

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #25 on: July 06, 2009, 02:41:09 am
As far as I know its not a 2d art specific term. Just means moving to a different viewing point OR in the context I used it, just exactly what you would do if I told you to rotate your shoulder, just uh, think of the shoulder as a ball and socket, and the ball moving around in the socket would be rotating the shoulder, yeah? In purely drawing sense that would mean drawing the side of the shoulder (or pad) instead of the top.

Atnas is probably right though, you should work on your anatomy, if you don't have a scanner I'm sure you can at least ask yourself if you think the anatomy in your pencil drawings is good, if you think its not so hot, go read some anatomy stuff, and draw for a while. Obviously you're doing a SD style, but a basic understanding of how the body moves will help you a ton.

Definitely try starting with a silhouette.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion

Reply #26 on: July 06, 2009, 04:46:32 am
I had changed a few things around before my previous post. I was going to post the results and then you had posted. I changed the head style to match the direction he was going in. I think I forgot about the hands but I do think I've fixed the general arm. I gave him some of a neck as well. For the arm I tried to think of how close the elbow is towards the body and went with that. I think I have the feet shifted around the right way. The foot facing towards us problem has always been a bugger for me. I erased the second hand entirely in favor of the handle. Tried to make the gun look more powerful. That's all from me. At first I wasn't sure what SD style meant then I remembered it being super deformed. What do you guys think?



CnC please?

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion: First Boss!

Reply #27 on: July 09, 2009, 06:38:09 am
I thought I'd post something. However, after thinnking a moment, I decided to try and design my first boss instead. First I did a mini, and a rough sketch on paper. It always looks better on paper. To see how I wanted it to turn out. The mech is only bipedal (not four like you'd think), and it has two large laser beam "hands". The design is sort of a prototype so it's kind of supposed to be awkward and unfinished. (I thought of making the hands circle, or giving it just one wheel, but thought against it.) There is also a green bottom turret that shoots some sort of phase energy at the player. There is an old terrorist sitting in the center pod having too much fun controlling it. It moves by walking and crawling up the walls. I was wanting to know a few things from you guys.

First off, do you have any suggestions on the design? I would also like to know how about to do those joints. I do not seem to be good at connecting them seamlessly. I tried to dither a small portion of the left arm. I don't think I have that correct. I also have the pilot sitting in a chair. Should I remove that and do something else with his arms?



Other then that, CnC please. :)

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Jake Bonfire crit discussion: First Boss!

Reply #28 on: July 09, 2009, 06:38:53 pm
I may have inadverntly offended someone whith one or more of my posts.

EDIT: I am not sure now.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 06:55:25 am by xhunterko »

Offline Avocado

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Re: lock please, thanks

Reply #29 on: July 09, 2009, 11:00:19 pm
I don't think that you've offended anyone with anything that you've said, but it sort of seems to me like you aren't really absorbing the advice given to you.  I would say that there has been an improvement in the protagonist since the first rendition, but idk, personally I like the 3/4 face thing you had going on at the start.  Go with what you prefer though, thats just my preference.  I really think it would benefit if you ramped your colors, though.  I feel like it would soften your shading and make the overall sprite more pleasing to the eye.
In regards to the tank thing, you might want to ref some metal slug to see how they do their stuff.  In addition, ask yourself some questions about the use of the various parts: why do the laser beam cannons have to be on jointed arms? the way you have it right now it seems like theyre attached to the top of the arms and are immovable but the arms themselves can bend.  The chair is kind of hard to read and it might be more effective to make the glass more opaque.  He also doesn't have a control panel right now, i have no clue how the robot moves around.  im also kind of confused as to whether the robot is facing the player or the character because of the way the legs are positioned on it compared to the lasers and the evildoer inside. 

Oh, I just read the bit about how it's supposed to be a prototype: I guess that it kind of works then, but I think a better way to get the "prototype" feel across would be to make the weapons backfire occasionally rather than having a sort of messy design.

also, the way you're shading it right now, it doesn't really look metallic. You could probably look up some ref of metallic stuff.

My main concern right now with your stuff overall is the color.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: mebe not

Reply #30 on: July 12, 2009, 06:59:48 am
Yes, I know what some of you are going to say. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU STILL DOING PIXELING!? I can't help it really.



I took my time and redisgned reshaded it. I tried to make it a bit more shiny by adding a fourth shade on the edges and making the shadow darker. I played around effects in Gimp until I got what I thought was right. Then went over to graphicsgale and pixeled it. I do not particularly like the glass dome. Perhaps I wrapped the lightest shade too far or something. I'm also going to probably have to reshade the right leg. I redid the laser emitters. I think I have the shading right on those.

As usual.
CnC please.

Offline Sokota

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Re: mebe not

Reply #31 on: July 12, 2009, 07:27:04 am
Yes, I know what some of you are going to say. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU STILL DOING PIXELING!? I can't help it really.
I don't usually post much critique but dude. I'm noob just like you. Don't stop pixelling. No one here wants you to stop. And if you don't keep trying, how will you learn? If you look at my Stasis topic, you'll see what I mean haha. I have not the slightest clue of anatomy but they are helping me and I'm trying to do what 'they' say. Anyways, as for critique on your machine. You did make it look shinier, but what bothers me is the construction. Aside from the fact that it might have super magnetic feet to offset the weight the lasers have, and not make it fall over, would be a good way to get around the construction. I think that you should add two more legs to give it a more solid construction. (Add them into the back, and make them darker, etc). I also think you may not like the glass dome because it is much wider than the laser balls, and throws off the shape the a bit. Also perhaps you should define what the green thing is a bit more. Keep up the work, man! Are you making this game with Gamemaker?

Sokota

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Boss Update

Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 03:19:35 am
@Sokata: No, I'm not using gamemaker, but MMF2. Not that I disrespect your choice though. The only other game creation tool I have slight disrespect for is RPG maker.



I attempted to stabilize it by adding the third leg as suggested. Though I don't think that it's shaded correctly, I'm not sure. I also tried to increase the body a bit to put the arms in a better positions. What I don't like is now it looks a bit static. I'm going to add another joint section to the arms for more accuracy. I moved the bottom laser to the center, which I like. I think it tells people what it does more correctly now. That's all from me.

CnC please?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 03:22:07 am by xhunterko »

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Boss Update

Reply #33 on: July 14, 2009, 04:26:10 am
When you're shading metal, changing hues in your palette can help in rendering it realistically. Metal reflects a lot of light, often reflecting colors from it's surroundings. I employed this on the joint of it's leg, and also made it completely circular. I doubt the current oval shape would do it much good.

In a bit of a hurry, hope this helps.

Offline Sokota

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Re: Boss Update

Reply #34 on: July 14, 2009, 05:21:22 am
If I am correct, I don't think you would see the hinge or joint connecting the back leg. If you want to animate it, the leg is shorter than the others. Good choice on the green thing. Perhaps you should make a laser come straight down and sweep the ground back and forth, whereas the lasers are just like, supernukelasers and one blast shot things. Up to you, just offering a suggestion. I think you should shade the glass dome more on one side, as this will give you a light source to match the shading of the laser generators. Another nitpick would be that the arms aren't center on the laser balls. Draw a line and they are on the bottomish. Might want to center that if you want them to swivel nicely. Well, good luck on this! I'm assuming this boss would move back and forth, right?

Sokota

Offline Dr D

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Re: Boss Update

Reply #35 on: July 14, 2009, 07:13:07 am
You're still having numerous issues that the solutions to have already been mentioned. Perhaps you're doing changes, but you're not doing them on a big enough scale? I think you really need to absorb the advice given to you, and apply it as best as you can. Over do it, even; show us that you're taking this in and understanding it. Anyways, among the issues, most prominent are shading and perspective. Colors aren't the greatest either.



Your back leg needs some work. I made this edit to demonstrate some issues bothering me about it, namely, the back joint, as Sokota mentioned isn't in the correct perspective. Don't know if it should be visible or not, but it shouldn't be intersecting the legs at the axis they rotate. Right now all 3 joints are facing us.

Your shading could use some work, too. In the most recent example, the bottom section of the back leg was lit/shaded similarly to the top portion. This makes it seem as if both sections are not connected, and like the example in my edit with the red X on it, to me. Your light sources over the entire image are confused. I shaded the edit with the light coming from above because I wasn't sure. Half of your robot make it appear as if the light is coming from the top left, but due to mirroring, it also seems as if it is coming from the right in some parts, and straight above in other parts. (I don't think the 'edge' highlight on the sphere works, btw. Spheres don't have edges.) And I just realized that the sections for the arms and legs are round, not square, unlike how I shaded them in the edit. Sorry for that. (Maybe making them -your entire robot- edgy would be a better choice, though?) Don't forget about cast shadows, either. I don't think there'd be so much light hitting directly underneath the main section of the bot, on the legs.

I know you've been told a million different times that your colors need de-saturating. And I know you're going for a look that is much less than realistic, however, saturated colors do not a cartoon make. Don't be afraid to drop that saturation way, way lower. I would also personally, never use pure grays, they're dull and boring, but Ryumaru already covers this so I'll leave you alone on it. You should read up on some color theory to find out how to achieve the best results. You could even implement those greens into what would likely be a blue-gray tinted robot. Just experiment with it, don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone.

As for the robot design, I think you'd fare off much better cleaning up your lines and jaggies, and try to go for a more symmetrical, even look. Much like with what Ryumaru pointed out with the oval joints.

I also dulled the tips of the legs so the bot would appear more stable.

The last portion of my edit was just me screwing around, but looking at it now, I think I can raise a good point with it. You need some details. Currently, you have this flat shaded, incredibly plain and basic looking robot (no offense). You can keep the same design, but I think it would make it look 10x more interesting if you threw in some little technical details. Mechanical parts and whatnot.

And I just want to say, I don't think you're pissing anyone off, and even if you are, so what? As long as you are courteous and respectful of the advice given to you, even if you don't agree with it, and respond that way, and show us that you're trying to improve rather than wasting our time, then all should be well. This is all about you, not anyone else. Don't let others get in the way of your improvement.

Keep up the good work. You've improved a lot since you first showed up here. And again, don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 10:56:24 pm by Dr D »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Boss Update

Reply #36 on: July 14, 2009, 08:29:31 pm
@Ryanmuru: That is exactly the type of joint I was going for. I think I see what your going with for the lighting colors though. The only problem is just how much and where it should be placed is a slight problem. I was worried about the mirroring aspect a little bit of having people accusing me of mirroring. But I thought, this is a mechanical piece, why not? Shouldn't be a problem to fix the oval though.

BTW, I quickly brushed over an article on colors while looking for a cough(rotation tool)cough. It showed how some colors paired with others to make it look okay. I thought, that's interesting, and skipped it like usual. Now I wished I hadn't. I know someone said something about grey and brown working together. And now blue and grey. Is there some formula to this? I'm going to try to look for it again.

@Sokota: Yes, the boss does move back and forth. In the first boss post, you should see how the green laser and the red ones behave. The green acting as a primary and the red acting as a charged shot. With the feet being another sharp weapon. I agree about the shading on the dome. I did a dirty tool edit where I accidently did that. I'll see what I can do about the postion of the laser orbs. I'm going to change they're structure a bit though before I do that.

@DrD : You are correct about the mirror shading. I was debating as to whether or not to leave it as is or go with a top down shading on it. Perhaps I should do that instead? I'll probably go ahead and leave the back joint out. Your right about that. I was thinking of adding a smaller section beneath the down so the legs can connect with that. But couldn't get it to look right. Since this is metal, I figured the best way to make it look brighter was by increasing the saturation. A lower saturation would probably make it look dull though right? (Unless, that's you use lower sat in the finished leg edit, haven't checked your numbers yet.) I can mix styles right? Having non cartoony bosses and SD characters can work right? Minus the lighting issue ryanmurur pointed out, I thought about the grey as, hey, it's a robot right? Any tips on fixing jaggies and how to spot them? I have some line examples somewhere that I can look at. But those are all at different angles. I do love your square shaped design though, it helps bring out what your trying to say. And I will definately check that detail issue.

(if an admin sees this part and it's against the rules, please delete it)
"And I just want to say, I don't think you're pissing anyone off, and even if you are, so what? ":
Not wanting to recieve a pm that starts with the attitude of 'go draw some s- around your room, and s- like that'. Is a good reason for not wanting to piss people off.
(end admin notice)

One more thing before I go pixel.

"I think you really need to absorb the advice given to you, and apply it as best as you can. Over do it, even; show us that you're taking this in and understanding it."

What would be the best possible way that I could do this? I know it's not, directly using someone's edit. Because that's not learning. Yet what if the edit they give you is the only way that sprite could turn out? Then what do you do?

Thanks for the crits all! Hopefully a pixel up soon.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Boss Update2

Reply #37 on: July 15, 2009, 12:27:37 am


I think I missed what you wanted for the back leg. Now it looks a little too dark. I left some areas unshaded because I'm not sure how to do those yet. I don't know if I should just flip the shading, or do something else with it. I went with a top down then from the right in some places. Did I address some of your concerns? Must take a walk now.

CnC please?

Offline Pawige

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Re: Boss Update2

Reply #38 on: July 15, 2009, 01:37:19 am
Here's an illustration of how the joint would probably look on the middle leg.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Boss Update3

Reply #39 on: July 15, 2009, 03:55:11 pm
Quickly while my coffee is brewing.



At pawige: that has got to be the most unique crit edit I've seen so far. Are you using blender by any chance?

Offline Pawige

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Re: Boss Update3

Reply #40 on: July 15, 2009, 04:42:22 pm
Nope, Maya. I have used Blender before though, it seems very powerful for a freeware program. Just got used to Maya ages ago with the PLE and have stuck with it since then. I have to say the boss has improved a LOT since it's first incarnation. The stripes on the joint on the middle leg break up its form a bit, I'd shade it a bit more solidly. I'd also try to add a bit more interest to the main hull and laser bulb thingies. Like pipes and plates and little panels, just so it's more interesting to look at. Do an image search for industrial robot or something along those lines for some ideas.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Boss detail

Reply #41 on: July 17, 2009, 06:32:10 am
I thought I'd try and fix the shading first on the laser orbs before adding detail bits. Then read a comic and got distracted. But I did try and work out the lighting though. Just to get them to match the rest of the piece though. I am going to try and get this thing in a different pose. With the arms chained to a wall. The other grey detail there is the back legs joint piece. Looking at it though, the attempted shading doesn't look right. Or the shape. But the single color doesn't look right though. I'll try applying the same shading as the rounded attachment connecting thing to it. Here it is though. Gonna try and work on boss 2, and some more backdrops for this area.



I didn't want to do a huge image this time cause I thought people would want to see what I worked on. Not the whole thing again.

Thanks again all.

As always, how'd I do?

Edit: I meant no disrespect to your crit though. I hope it didn't seem like that.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 03:20:40 am by xhunterko »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Rehash v.2

Reply #42 on: July 23, 2009, 08:31:38 pm
I hope I picked up something from my reading. Maybe a little bit.



I've also been working on the boss for a bit which I'll upload later. (after 11pm central) At work at the moment and I can't finish it. I just realized I forgot the tail. But that's not a big deal considering the mnor impact it has on the actual anatomy. Did I acheive anything?

CnC please.

(Sorry if this counts as a necro-bump, wasn't sure.)

Btw. I was wondering about superscript and subscript. The reason is I have a large amount of images on the first post and they are about to get much larger. I knew some forums have a collapsing 'hide' option for part of the text or images.  Can I do that here with the scripts or do we not support it? Or am I gonna have to find an html workaround? If it exists.
Thanks.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Boss Detail 2

Reply #43 on: July 24, 2009, 07:56:58 pm
Apparently, majhost was down this morning.



I am probably going to leave the orbs open but unactivated. Ans I may not keep this pose at all. I wanted to have the impression of it being chained to the wall and then breaking loose and attacking. I can still do that with the current pose I think. This one looks a little lifeless at best.

CnC as usual.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 09:12:35 pm by xhunterko »

Offline Halloween_Cloud

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Re: Boss Detail 2

Reply #44 on: July 25, 2009, 06:09:15 pm
I love seeing how the "robot" evolves!

Offline Dr D

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Re: Boss Detail 2

Reply #45 on: July 27, 2009, 07:04:04 am
If the boss has multiple instances in which you fight him, I think it would be pretty cool to fight him like this, in which he can use the unactivated orbs as wrecking balls to smash the player with.

By the way, keep up the good work, much improvement. That glass dome needs some work, though. Throw in some highlights/speculars, I'm not sure. Research how glass works, and work on the form a bit. It looks flat/unfinished. (which it might be, anyway)

Offline LoTekK

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Re: Boss Detail 2

Reply #46 on: July 27, 2009, 07:35:13 am
Right now the palette lacks contrast. That along with the relatively uniform distance between shading bands is flattening out the rounded volumes. I didn't do any editing to the actual shading, but I cranked the contrast in photoshop, which should give a better idea of what I mean.

Also, made some sloppy edits to the dome, and one of the orbs, to suggest more volume.

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Boss Detail 2

Reply #47 on: July 27, 2009, 11:11:25 pm
@Dr.D - No, the orbs were supposed to "wake up" after the player enters the boss room. Are you agreeing with LoTekk about the contrast issue when you say it looks flat/unfinished? (It's supposed to be a prototype, so that may be a factor. But I thought I had plenty of shading in there with the correct light source.) And thanks btw.

@LoTekk: Looking at some of your 3d work atm if you don't mind. :) I see what you did with the orb. But he's on a relatively dark blue background that I didn't want to put him in with this edit. Is that where your getting the yellowish light shift on the bottom right? Which in turn, would make it the darker blue shade correct? I'm a bit hesitant to change with values and saturation because I get "yelled at" almost each time. So I went with much softer values. I'll have to check to see what you did though. Thanks you though!
 (A bit off topic but I couldn't help myself. You have some excellent models on there. But I think that some of the shoulders and the elbows could be a bit more rounded. Unless your going for a low tech look. (no pun intended).

Offline miscdude

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Re: Boss Detail 2

Reply #48 on: July 27, 2009, 11:20:09 pm
the biggest flaw I see isnt the values or colors or anything of that nature. It is that you seem to not grasp how to properly shade objects. most of what you have lacks depth, or any 3d element at all. if you look at lotekk's edit of the hand...thing, you can see that it looks like an orb, not just a circle. things are drawn as if not to even be a 3d object portrayed in a 2d scene, which makes no sense to me if youre going to go so far as to add a back leg. This can be easily helped by just looking at any object (save, maybe paper.) notice how the light hits it, and how different curves and joints and surfaces react to the light. Please don't take this the wrong way, I just don't believe you're seeing what people are really critiqing.

Offline fucbillgates

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Re: Boss Detail 2

Reply #49 on: July 28, 2009, 05:48:03 pm
Your light source is coming from the top left on the spheres
and the top right on the glass.
You should make sure your light is all coming from
the same direction.

You could increase the contrast on the colors
but only if you want to.

And notice how i made the metal near the
main glass dome more blue because the glass
dome would reflect some light onto the metal.





« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 10:54:28 pm by fucbillgates »

Offline xhunterko

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Re: Anatomy Break

Reply #50 on: July 30, 2009, 07:43:48 pm
@miscdude - taken wrong not, little disconcerting it is, though, when basics understood, is not being. worries make self, it does

@*bill* - I see where some of the shaidng can get confusing after looking at it closer. Though shouldn't I keep the shading consistent? I fgured since the character is shaded from the top left, I figured everything else should be too. I'll see if I can't fix the shading a little later to see if I can't get it right around the entire piece. Thank you for the edit. The increased contrast looks nice in some places but out of place in others. (At least to me anyway.) Maybe I'll have to see where I go with that.

I've decided to take a little break from giant robots to work on my anatomy a little bit.



I changed the size by just a hair so I could get some more area to work with. I think I have the legs but I'm really sick of trying to work with the arms and the hands. Another thing that's bothering me was the how it looked dull. So the character on the right has increased contrast a bit.

How'd I do?
CnC, please,thanks.

(and why are the images messing up I wonder? Give me a sec.)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 07:50:50 pm by xhunterko »