AuthorTopic: Professor walking  (Read 21148 times)

Offline lollige

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #40 on: June 09, 2009, 07:03:55 am
That's a nice looking edit, Ben. But it's almost like he doesn't need the cane at all, his mobility doesn't seem to be impaired. It looks like he has a lot of energy and is walking quite powerfully. It could work, but it's not what I'd expect to see from an old professor. Well, I guess that's for Robotacon to decide.
Canes arn't there because one needs 'm, they are a symbol of power. His walking symbolizes the same here, so thats all fine ;)

Offline robotacon

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #41 on: June 09, 2009, 08:10:10 am
Great job Ben2theEdge, you have such an eye for volume. At this point I haven't made up my mind on whether he needs the cane or if it's for show like lollige say so any way you use it is OK. Normally when you walk with a bad leg you hold the cane with the opposite hand, it's a bit counterintuitive but I learned that from my mother who was a nurse and I double checked that so is the case. I don't know what it's called but the "pass-walking" moving both arm and leg on the same side at the same time is a result of this as well but at the same time I kind of like it. It definitely gives character to the walk and the animation as a whole is very convincing.

Now, the movement of the legs. By now you might know that I'm pretty strict with the speed. Like you say he's moving almost twice as fast as I wanted.  I think you work similar to how ndchristie wants me to work, looking at the entire shape and building from there but I'm going to suggest that you have to map out the path on the ground first and then you can do the silloetto. If you look at the cane it's moving way too fast. It's put in the ground ahead of the foot and then it's  sliding past the foot before it's picked off the ground like he is cross country skiing.

I made an edit of your version where the feet move at 1px per frame and the cane moves at the same speed.

Yours: <= Edit for speed

Offline ptoing

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #42 on: June 09, 2009, 08:17:24 am
This animation might actually benefit and get more character if you give him more frames on the leg on the side of the cane, so that he has kinda a limp. 2 or so frames more would be fine.
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Offline robotacon

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #43 on: June 09, 2009, 09:08:36 am
I added some twisting motion to the lab coat, like Ben2theEdge did, and tried to even out things that were too snappy and ease into the step and not lift the shoes as high as before. In my edit of Ben2theEdge's version I picked up the foot way too high.

=>

I tried to do what you suggested ptoing but I couldn't figure out how to do it.

A side note about running with one immobile arm and how the torso move and all that:

Check out around 7:40 of this clip. You'll see a side view back lit stiletto running with a guy talking in a cellphone I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J8UtZR6Z4E
All I can say is that he's waving like crazy and his torso is not moving much at all.

This clip is golden for all kinds of moves, I'm happy I found it today.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 11:01:31 am by robotacon »

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #44 on: June 09, 2009, 01:16:48 pm
I guess what I was hoping you'd take from mine (and I guess I should have talked about more) Was the more dynamic nature of the movement. The reason for the rough beforehand (be it a sillohuette or a sketch or whatever) is to find an aesthetically pleasing motion before doing anything else. You probably won't notice much difference between step 2 and step 4 in terms of actual motion - I refined it a little bit as I layered on top of it, and I layered in new motions like his arm and his hair movement, but the foundation doesn't really change.

(as a side note, speed is something I usually adjust last because I may change the speed when I see it in-game. whether that is the best way to do it or not, I have no opinion)

Anyway this animation seems "timid" still... you're clinging too closely to your original model so the coat looks hard and stiff, the shoulders are rigid, and the back doesn't arch convincingly with the step. Adjusting these foundational things in the beginning when you're only using 1 color and no detail takes seconds. Making these structural changes with a fully rendered model is painstaking and could take hours. The version I did took me maybe 45 minutes while also watching TV and stalking people on facebook. I'm not saying your workflow sucks or your style sucks or anything like that (because I quite like your style), I'm saying that the absence of one little step in your process is holding you back and you should at least just give this a try - experiment with it, prove whether or not it's better for you.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 01:21:11 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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Offline ndchristie

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #45 on: June 09, 2009, 10:00:29 pm
I considered suggesting steps on the cane earlier and i think that you can do it without actually changing the speed the sprite moves if you have the whole body slide backwards on the frames when just the cane advances.  I'd edit to demonstrate but I'm pressed for time.  Reply if clarity is lacking.

Some people use a cane who are perfectly capable of walking without it.  Some people need it only for stairs or bending over.  Some people advance the cane with the step (leg+cane, leg, leg+cane), while others must wait and advance the cane alone (leg, leg, cane).  Some people must advance the cane on every step (leg, cane, leg, cane).  The level of mobility will impact the way the character is perceived.

Ben gives a brilliant edit on the spine movement.  There's a tremendous difference between not moving much and not moving at all.  Also look at the way he's animating less active portions like the head position, utilizing circular motion paths (a fairly advanced skill) brilliantly in that they allow him to move tiny distances in more frames, smoothing out motion without significantly increasing the range and also without increasing the jerkiness.  It also presents a great method for finding movement.  Also look closely at what he's doing with his smaller motions - the significance of the head movement on the 'limp' step allows him to put greater movement on the 'steady' step while having it still appear understated and level because of the comparison.  That is a prime example of how one aspect considers the whole in a way that can't be figured when working in tiny modulars, not just across space but across time.

That video is a great find because it's an example of someone putting incredible, visible effort into keeping his body stable at high speed.  You'll notice that he's waving mostly with his lower arm, reducing at the elbow and locking the shoulder action into a tight rotation, minimizing lateral shift.  It's a little funny actually since stopping his shoulder action (which actually robs him of all the momentum built by pumping one's arms... his body is begging to move more and he's not allowing it.  Still, his torso and shoulders are moving a lot within a small space, and that's still very different from not moving.

In general, when running the shoulders move in circles, which oppose each other.  The shoulder opposite the stepping leg would be swinging up with the arm, generating forward power, while the other shoulder falls back high and then scoops in to advance and swing up next.  Shoulders also tend to rotate around the y axis.  Good shoulder movement is important because it does a number of things.  The pumping directly generates momentum forward on the shoulders which pull the spine and the hips and gives greater movement during suspension, the most important time of the run because the body is not able to apply force to the ground in order to maintain or increase speed.  The twist also works against the hips to make both actions - pumping and stepping - springier and stronger.  Torsion is among the strongest and most violent natural forces.  Last, it actually compresses the diaphragm, which facilitates deep breathing.  If you relax your core, work your arms properly and open your airways, you should actually find yourself taking shallow, unconscious breaths.
As for the spine, top-speed is achieved when the spine is able to hop forward and then straighten as though it was a jumping stick.  This further builds momentum and is assisted by the movement of the shoulders.  At the moment of passing (or really just after), the spine should be almost perfectly straight down the receding leg.
If you have all these motions, even fast and small, your run will gain life, smoothness and believability.  Unfortunately because they are small and interconnected, they are terribly terribly difficult to add into a finished run.  Moving around chunks of finished animation a piece at a time can't reflect such subtleties, it demands close attention no matter when you address it.  This means either planning it the fist time, or doing as much or more work later when you go back, and that's a direct, practical reason that for this thread in particular I urge the methods I've discussed.
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Offline robotacon

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #46 on: June 10, 2009, 09:05:59 am
Having the Professor stand still while the cane advances might look great. I considered it but didn't think I had enough frames for it but I'm going to try it with extra frames.

I think we're generally pretty much on the same page when it comes to theory of physics and dynamics. If you move this there's a reverse movement to that and so on. I don't agree that everything has to move. I think the opposite, that a lot of the time something looks better if it doesn't move especially in sprite animation of the size I'm working with. I think you can hide a lot of things in the animation by simply making sure everything moves and you get a very dynamic animation but the really hard thing is to have something move slowly.

I think you both have valid points of how to make the movement more dynamic. I like Ben2theEdge's version of the old man a lot but I think he has a quality to him that is too brusque personality-wise. He has a kind of Scrooge Mc Duck thing going on when I had a vision of someone like Professor Calculus. That may all be due to retroactive continuity, me thinking I thought that because it came out the way it did, but what the heck?

I'm going to go back and look at all the characters I have and see if I need to rework the dynamics of their movement. The last time I did that I thought I had a good blend of different dynamics.

Thanx for all the feedback, the edits and the "heated discussion".

Offline Pixelfish

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #47 on: June 10, 2009, 09:53:46 am
I would like to say as an observer looking in that you have been very rude to very skilled people who were just trying to help. I am particularly surprised at the persistence of these people in attempting to help you with your work, as I personally would not have bothered. If anyone ever gives you advice on your art you should take it. I've been where you are, I know it's hard, but you are not in a position to be arguing about animation with helm or christie, and your work shows it. Take that with a grain of salt if you like, which you obviously do. I'm sure you are an intelligent person, but you have much to learn, as we all do.

Offline Gil

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #48 on: June 10, 2009, 05:22:28 pm
I really like your latest professor actually, it looks fine.

I find that everyone in this thread is ignoring the source material. Robotacon's arcade game has always had this feel of weightlessness coupled to a space theme with black backgrounds. I personally find it very appealing.

While Ben2theEdge's edit looks very nice, it's so far removed from the docile cane-wielding professor Robotacon is portraying, that it's basically just a whole different character. I find the newest edit from Robotacon to be a nice edit that takes the correct elements from Ben's cycle and applies it to the established character. I'll make an edit later to show some points I think are still throwing it off a little.

Pixelfish: Here at Pixelation, people are expected to be able to take a little punch. That counts for both sides IMO. Robotacon has every right to deflect some criticism if he doesn't find it to be step towards the visual style in his head. He is not ignoring the comments either, because we definately see an influence of the comments on his work.

Quote
you are not in a position to be arguing about animation with helm or christie, and your work shows it.

Isn't this rather rude and uncalled for? Helm is not the best animator himself, nor is christie. What they both are very good at is deconstructing animation to achieve a better result. They are trying to show Robotacon how to establish a similar ethic and as far as I can see, it's showing already in his animations

Offline Ben2theEdge

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Re: Professor walking

Reply #49 on: June 10, 2009, 05:45:00 pm
While Ben2theEdge's edit looks very nice, it's so far removed from the docile cane-wielding professor Robotacon is portraying, that it's basically just a whole different character. I find the newest edit from Robotacon to be a nice edit that takes the correct elements from Ben's cycle and applies it to the established character. I'll make an edit later to show some points I think are still throwing it off a little.

The personality of the character is really just superficial... I portrayed him as a cantankerous old man late for a lecture, as opposed to a more feeble kindly old man... six of one, half dozen of the other. I really hope that's not the only thing anyone noticed from my edit. The point I was making was in the construction and consequently the much better sense of volume and weight, that is of far greater relevance to this particular thread than the character's personality. One could animate him with any attitude you deem appropriate as long as they are properly conveying form and motion, which I think could still be improved in this piece.

If anyone ever gives you advice on your art you should take it. I've been where you are, I know it's hard, but you are not in a position to be arguing about animation with helm or christie, and your work shows it. Take that with a grain of salt if you like, which you obviously do. I'm sure you are an intelligent person, but you have much to learn, as we all do.

Considering some of the bizarre advice that has been given over the course of this thread, and since I doubt anyone here would claim to be a master guru of animation, I think robotacon has every right to question and test the advice he is getting. If his goal is to get better at his craft, all is well. If he just wanted some ass-pats and congratulations then that's a different story, but I personally do not believe this to be the case at all.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 05:49:15 pm by Ben2theEdge »
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