AuthorTopic: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help! LV2*  (Read 5526 times)

Offline Mike

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 294
  • Karma: +0/-3
    • View Profile
    • Scribble onto the Abyss

I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help! LV2*

on: April 03, 2009, 12:53:05 pm
I've finally dipped my hand into the complicated world of creating game tiles and so far I'm having a lot of trouble.  I don't understand a whole lot about the uses of tiles other than they make it easier to reproduce game art, so please forgive me if what I show is just so nooby it makes you want to vomit.  Thankfully promotion makes it a lot easier regardless of being a newb at tiling.  Okay on to the reason I'm here; I need help with tiling a broken down, rusty, dilapidated, lived in, tossed aside brick building.  The feeling I'm trying to get across with this building and the whole level in general is poverty and beat down buildings and structures.  Though this is not apparent in what I'm showing, not yet anyway.  Even though I made this thread to learn how to communicate "brickness" I would also greatly appreciate insight and profound knowledge on how to render buildings and make them not look plain and phoned in.  Okay here is my first pass.



While I feel like what I drew does depict "bricks" I don't really like how super detailed it is coming off.  When I realized this I hastily made an edit off to the side to illustrate what I'm going for, I also wanted to increase the "fake resolution" of the bricks(something I learned from Helms thread http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=8110.0)  however when I did that they look more plastic-e and toy like and less like stylized cartoon bricks.  So as you can see I have a dilemma and am seeking the knowledge from my superiors.

also as an aside my color selection sucks, mainly because of my lack of color knowledge but partly because I have stupid yellow tinted prescription glasses that while in highschool seemed cool but now years later suck hard!!  And since I have no health insurance I'm stuck with them.  Just thought I would throw that out there...

Update 2009










PS. if anyone cares or is wondering about my previous thread with my animations; I willingly stopped working on my game animations in order to focus on my new college 2D animation class.  After I beat that class I pray that I will have improved after which I will resurrect my thread and will be able to address the critiques I received.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 06:50:33 am by Mike »

Offline Ai

  • 0100
  • ***
  • Posts: 1057
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • finti
    • http://pixeljoint.com/pixels/profile.asp?id=1996
    • finticemo
    • View Profile

Re: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help!

Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 01:39:47 pm
Quickly:
* You captured the general look you were aiming for ok.
* yes, WAAAAAY too much noise makes the BG seem over detailed. you also have markedly too much contrast within individual bricks; these areas will tend to draw the eye.
* if I was doing these tiles, I'd make the bricks flat, then I would scrawl some scratches sparingly across some tiles, making sure that the scratches were well broken up. This would use only 2 colors for the bricks
* Yes, you're making things unnecessarily hard by using as many colors as you are. Rather than lighting the edges of the bricks themselves, you can hint at this by variations in the brightness of the mortar (again, only 2 colors needed)
* having the brick red so close to the red of your character's hair is a design mistake. Unless you are obligated to limit your palette in some fixed way, desaturating the bricks to reduce the similarity is my recommendation.
* oh, nice NES vibe :)

Edit: check out the tiles from double dragon (probably arcade version is best). They definitely have some tiles that do the look you want well, with just the right level of detail.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 01:42:00 pm by Ai »
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help!

Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 02:08:44 pm
You're doing an alright job conveying what you're going for. On a utilitarian level it's good. It's a building, made of bricks. These are windows. For the artistry to show though you need to consider various issues.

1. Your color usage is primary at best. Reminds me of MSpaint colors. The types of colors MSpaint users gravitate towards because of the default MS palette. The colors you choose are very literal, you know, RED for brick, GREY for steel... so on. This creates problems in my view because the end art looks amateurish. Some people can use this MSpaint effect to their benefit, but especially since your character is this anime sorta fellow the end result gives this mixed vibe that doesn't work in its advantage.

Pretty much to this I would suggest looking at colors from various pieces of art (not pixel art especially) that you think they work and codifying what makes them work.
Look at this for example: http://cosechadel66.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/norman_rockwell_the_problem_we_all_live_with.jpg Look at the hues on the wall. What makes them work?

The texture wall you've chosen to go with is a symbolic one, primarily. With that I do not mean that it doesn't exist, I mean that it carries symbolic connotations. Sure, this exists: http://stein.bioch.dundee.ac.uk/~charlie/layman/layman.php?section=2&menu=0&popup=1 but also this exists: http://www.julielenzerkirk.com/graphics/brick_wall.jpg or this: http://www.bigfoto.com/sites/galery/background/background_brick_wall.jpg

Now if you squint, which is the color identity of these photos? Is it RED? Or is it an earthy middle brown with various accentuations? You have to unlearn to think of color in literary, symbolic terms, I think.

2. At this size I do not think the stuff between the bricks is worth a whole pixel line's worth of space. Half a pixel seems more to the point, so blending the color of the mortar, whatever you call it, the paste between the bricks, with the color of the bricks makes more sense. Also allows for a few brick edges to pop out which helps with the volumes. Which carries along to issue

3. Your building is flat. Choose a lightsource and cast shadows of the geometry on itself. This isn't something you can learn in pixel art specifically, it's an issue with fundamental understanding of shapes and volumes and how light hits them.

4. Noise. The detail work you've put on the bricks suggests cracks and indentations more than it suggests subtle texture. Subtlety is missing and it's something you could work on for this.

5. Extreme contrast between bricks, the stuff in between, the windows... everything fights for the attention of the eye. This isn't good for a videogame.

Right now you have issues of contrast, volume, stylistics and pixel art techniques with you art. The biggest problems are those you won't be able to attack directly with this piece and they pertain to your artistic understanding of your environment.

In my edit below I've kept the primary red brick wall theme, although I personally wouldn't use this sort of tileset pretty much ever, perhaps you want to stick with the red brick wall, even so good fundamentals and smart pixel tech would help a lot.

Offline tocky

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 503
  • Karma: +0/-1
  • doublepostokrates
    • View Profile
    • my blog

Re: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help!

Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 02:17:31 pm
I'd say draw fewer brick per tile (you've got eight rows per tile, try four or two) -this will make it less busy and let you put more detail into individual bricks. as it is, about a quarter of your brickwork is mortar, where you should try to minimise it somewhat.

ask a wiki about brickwork or bricklaying and you'll immediately get info about a bunch of different patterns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brickwork
http://www.diyinfo.org/wiki/Basic_Bricklaying_Introduction

Offline Mike

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 294
  • Karma: +0/-3
    • View Profile
    • Scribble onto the Abyss

Re: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help!

Reply #4 on: April 04, 2009, 02:03:06 am
Wow thanks for all the insight everyone though to be honest my main concern(in the beginning) was making the bricks line up perfectly and evenly using a 32x32 sized tile.  And from what I could tell the way I have it now is like the only way it works out(I may be wrong though)  I'm not experienced at using tiles since I have spent most of my time with characters.  Ok to make sure I address everything that was said I will be going down a list for each person.

Quickly:
* You captured the general look you were aiming for ok.
* yes, WAAAAAY too much noise makes the BG seem over detailed. you also have markedly too much contrast within individual bricks; these areas will tend to draw the eye.
* if I was doing these tiles, I'd make the bricks flat, then I would scrawl some scratches sparingly across some tiles, making sure that the scratches were well broken up. This would use only 2 colors for the bricks
* Yes, you're making things unnecessarily hard by using as many colors as you are. Rather than lighting the edges of the bricks themselves, you can hint at this by variations in the brightness of the mortar (again, only 2 colors needed)
* having the brick red so close to the red of your character's hair is a design mistake. Unless you are obligated to limit your palette in some fixed way, desaturating the bricks to reduce the similarity is my recommendation.
* oh, nice NES vibe :)

Edit: check out the tiles from double dragon (probably arcade version is best). They definitely have some tiles that do the look you want well, with just the right level of detail.

*Ai, I agree with you in saying that the bricks are drawing way too much attention, almost as much as the character.  I'm gonna take your advice and stick to two colors at first, after which I will return with an edit and see if adding more colors will help.  Is it only 2 colors for the whole tile or 2 colors for the brick, and 2 colors for the mortar?

What do you mean by "Rather than lighting the edges of the bricks themselves, you can hint at this by variations in the brightness of the mortar"  I'm not quite sure what you mean there.

As for the color of the bricks and his hair...well it looks like I may have actually taken the red from his hair for the brick.  It was a stupid lazy mistake mostly due to the fact that it is such a b**** to pick colors using promotion at least in my experience.  So I copped out and used the red already there.  Although at first my original brick color was brown A35C39 to be exact.

Not to be a noob but you mention it has an NES vibe, what specifically makes it look like that(not that it's a bad thing mind you)  ;)

I will check out the Double Dragon tiles for sure.

You're doing an alright job conveying what you're going for. On a utilitarian level it's good. It's a building, made of bricks. These are windows. For the artistry to show though you need to consider various issues.

1. Your color usage is primary at best. Reminds me of MSpaint colors. The types of colors MSpaint users gravitate towards because of the default MS palette. The colors you choose are very literal, you know, RED for brick, GREY for steel... so on. This creates problems in my view because the end art looks amateurish. Some people can use this MSpaint effect to their benefit, but especially since your character is this anime sorta fellow the end result gives this mixed vibe that doesn't work in its advantage.

Pretty much to this I would suggest looking at colors from various pieces of art (not pixel art especially) that you think they work and codifying what makes them work.
Look at this for example: http://cosechadel66.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/norman_rockwell_the_problem_we_all_live_with.jpg Look at the hues on the wall. What makes them work?

The texture wall you've chosen to go with is a symbolic one, primarily. With that I do not mean that it doesn't exist, I mean that it carries symbolic connotations. Sure, this exists: http://stein.bioch.dundee.ac.uk/~charlie/layman/layman.php?section=2&menu=0&popup=1 but also this exists: http://www.julielenzerkirk.com/graphics/brick_wall.jpg or this: http://www.bigfoto.com/sites/galery/background/background_brick_wall.jpg

Now if you squint, which is the color identity of these photos? Is it RED? Or is it an earthy middle brown with various accentuations? You have to unlearn to think of color in literary, symbolic terms, I think.

2. At this size I do not think the stuff between the bricks is worth a whole pixel line's worth of space. Half a pixel seems more to the point, so blending the color of the mortar, whatever you call it, the paste between the bricks, with the color of the bricks makes more sense. Also allows for a few brick edges to pop out which helps with the volumes. Which carries along to issue

3. Your building is flat. Choose a lightsource and cast shadows of the geometry on itself. This isn't something you can learn in pixel art specifically, it's an issue with fundamental understanding of shapes and volumes and how light hits them.

4. Noise. The detail work you've put on the bricks suggests cracks and indentations more than it suggests subtle texture. Subtlety is missing and it's something you could work on for this.

5. Extreme contrast between bricks, the stuff in between, the windows... everything fights for the attention of the eye. This isn't good for a videogame.

Right now you have issues of contrast, volume, stylistics and pixel art techniques with you art. The biggest problems are those you won't be able to attack directly with this piece and they pertain to your artistic understanding of your environment.

In my edit below I've kept the primary red brick wall theme, although I personally wouldn't use this sort of tileset pretty much ever, perhaps you want to stick with the red brick wall, even so good fundamentals and smart pixel tech would help a lot.



1.  Yeah I agree MSpaint colors, picking colors and using the HSV, RGB is one of my biggest weaknesses.  I took a color theory class as well but it didn't really help me that much.  Hopefully my next edit will be much better using the critique I'm getting now.

2. Half a pixel?  This is exactly why I'm not very good a pixel work.  I'm not quite sure how to achieve half a pixel.

3. The level takes place at night time, and I don't think there will be a moon.  So I'm not quite sure how I should go about picking a light source.  Though now that I think about it if it's night time perhaps the bricks won't be "red red" instead they will be a more subdued color.  I'm just gonna decide this right now the level will take place at night.  I was on the fence about it before but now I'm sure of it.  I'm going to take this in account when picking colors.  Since it is at night time can you help me understand where a light source might be coming from so that the player can still see everything.  I want it to be like a movie type of night time.  Where you can tell it's night time based on the sky color but still see a good amount of colors and details.

4.  Yea I really hated the noise of the bricks even if it does look like bricks(it looks far too textured for my taste)  that's getting axed first thing.

5.  My original idea for buildings and the like was to make them only a few colors, mostly desaturated so they aren't attention hogs.  For some reason while making the bricks I just forgot about my idea.  I got way too excited that I made bricks that look like "bricks"

"The biggest problems are those you won't be able to attack directly with this piece and they pertain to your artistic understanding of your environment." 

This I agree with a 100%  I don't get out much so my view of the world is very limited.  However since I don't want to be spending years and years on this game I'll have to swallow my perfectionist attitude and just live with the flaws and hopefully my mistakes will teach me as I get older.  So as soon as I get it as close to my skill level as possible I'm gonna have to work on something else.  Even if I don't think it's perfect, but that doesn't mean I won't strive for perfection, I'll just know my limits.

About the tile set, what is bad about it?  Is it the art or how it is laid out?  Is it something else?  I want to understand the art of making tiles more so please an explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Furthermore I'll be keeping your edit on hand so I can see how it's done.

I'd say draw fewer brick per tile (you've got eight rows per tile, try four or two) -this will make it less busy and let you put more detail into individual bricks. as it is, about a quarter of your brickwork is mortar, where you should try to minimise it somewhat.

ask a wiki about brickwork or bricklaying and you'll immediately get info about a bunch of different patterns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brickwork
http://www.diyinfo.org/wiki/Basic_Bricklaying_Introduction

Thanks for these tocky, while I originally just searched google for bricks I didn't even think of looking at a wiki.  Hell I didn't even know there were different ways to lay bricks down. :o

Offline Mike

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 294
  • Karma: +0/-3
    • View Profile
    • Scribble onto the Abyss

Re: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help! LV2*

Reply #5 on: April 04, 2009, 06:58:50 am
Here is my new update on the bricks.  I decided to stick with fixing the tile art before making it into a building.  I'm pretty much going to scrap everything before hand and I don't want to work on things I'll have to scrap later because of tile changes.

Ok here it is, I tried to work in all of the advice I was given from each person who contributed.  I even took a look at the Double Dragon background art for NES(couldn't find Arcade version) on vgmaps.com

My first redone version sucked so I immediately started over and gave it another whirl.  The only thing I don't particularly like about the newest version is the uneven bricks.



Looking forward to further critiques and increasing my skill ;)

Offline Doppleganger

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 284
  • Karma: +2/-0
  • Fall!
    • View Profile

Re: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help! LV2*

Reply #6 on: April 04, 2009, 09:21:28 am
This is going to be my attempt at the quickest edit/critique ever. Generally, with these expectations, I end up going way over the top, but hopefully that's not how it ends up, because I really want to go to sleep.



This is my edit. Helm was pretty much spot on with his musings, and I don't want to undermine his edits/critique in any way, as I think he did an excellent job interpreting what you want to accomplish. With that being said, I offer my own interpretation of what you have set out to accomplish. I've made a ton of brick tiles in my time, and so I've become very accustomed to creating them in a specific way. That way happens to, in general, be a happy medium between what you've done currently and Helm's edit. It really depends on the scale of the brick, but the average tile I make seems to fit between yours and helms. If I were working on 16x16 tiles for a building that is about 4 tiles high, I would 100% use a method that is extraordinarily similar to Helm's; maybe shrinking the vertical height of the bricks a bit.

Anyway, as hs AI had pointed out earlier, your tiles have this nes vibe to them. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to be honest, I don't think that's really what you were going for-- correct me if I'm wrong. So, aside from equalizing the spacing between each brick, the first thing I did was deduce why you're latest tiles (which are markedly better than your originals) still carried that nes vibe with them. A lot of it has to do with contrast, and just as much has to do with your understanding of color. While your new tiles do an excellent job of clarifying the singular bricks, they don't really achieve much as far as the portrayal of an actual brick. This has a lot to do with the consistency you carry over from brick to brick. When you are attempting to break up a grid -of any sort- the first thing you want to do is break up the grid of the initial tile. If you can look at a tile and observe a grid within it, then you've already failed and need to address that first. This is a natural process in creating tiles, and  only experience will give you the know-how to destroy the grid before it starts. To elaborate on my primary points I would like to point out that minor discoloration between the bricks is a fantastic way to destroy the initial grid. Helm does a wonderful job of this in the tile that you see between the two windows, and he does a pretty good job of this with the tiles outside the window. Although, it is important to note that he breaks the grid with texture, as opposed to coloration, with the bricks outside the two windows. Even more important to note, is that while he defines this differentiation with texture, the end result is still based upon value.  The number of indentations/scratches on any given brick will determine its overall colorization. A heavily marred brick is just going to be a darker brick to the untrained eye. And even the trained eye to some extent: even though I know what to be looking for, if I were playing your game I would not be critiquing the texture from brick to brick as I chop off the heads of enemies. To finish, I would like to point out your choice of colors.

While I think the colors you started with are miles beyond what you started with, I think you could do a much better job with them. Understanding colors is a very difficult job, especially if you use video game references as an applicable guide toward choosing them, but it's not beyond anyone's grasp. To reiterate Helm, I probably would never choose the colors that I have if it weren't for this edit. But, I did what I could to maintain the look that you were going for. The end result was the vibrancy you had in the beginning, combined with the very subdued bricks that you ended with. I introduced a 7th color that was very similar to the base color of the bricks in order to break up the montonoy from brick to brick. It would be safe to say that the 7th color was a secondary primary color of the bricks. It's really quite subtle, but the amount that it accomplishes when you spread out the tile over a large expanse can not be questioned. Obivously you have noticed that the mortar between the bricks has taken on characteristics from your older tiles. This is just a general preference I have, as I find that a divider that contrasts with what you're dividing does a better, and more predictable, job of breaking up the grid. In addition to that, it also does wonders towards adding depth to to everything. Regardless of that fact, it is not impossible, nor improbable, to achieve what I have with a mortar that matches the colors of the bricks. In fact, if I were to share colors between the mortar and the bricks, I could define a level of realism with the bricks that I currently can not. It's really a question of the style you are going for, and in your case, I assume you're going for generalizations and cartoony appearance over realism. I realize that I didn't really go over anything concerning color choices, and instead focused on a few random theories that revolved around color choices (specifically: value), but there are numerous things you can read on color selection, and not so many things you can read about color theory. Especially when it comes to brick tiles.

For all that I've said, I feel like I could write another 2-3 paragraphs, but I'm going to end it here. If you have any further questions I would be glad to answer to them.

Offline Mike

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 294
  • Karma: +0/-3
    • View Profile
    • Scribble onto the Abyss

Re: I'm having a mental brickdown!! Help! LV2*

Reply #7 on: April 04, 2009, 10:31:35 am
I need to go to bed now but before I do I just wanted to say that you nailed the perspective I imagined for the top of the building!!  I hope you don't mind if I keep that perspective(of course I'll make my own version)  Also your brick tiles are leagues ahead of mine! 

I'm gonna be at City walk for the DSi launch tomorrow but hopefully before I go I can get another edit out that uses your in depth knowledge and advice.  I'm loving the multiple colors for the bricks.  Thanks for the critique Doppleganger!