AuthorTopic: Arabian Knight  (Read 22051 times)

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #30 on: June 11, 2009, 05:12:51 am
But i don't think that faris As'sahraa' is right.  It would translate as "knight (indefinite), the desert," or worse "knight (indefinite) is the desert."  I could be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure that's not the way to say The Desert's Knight.  If he's bent on using an Arabic phrase, the grammar should be proper.  I say ask a native speaker just I can't tell you how to translate such a complex possessive like "the Desert's Knight."  I don't see how that ruins any puns (there's only one character Faris in the entire arabian nights, an egyptian, and he is only featured for a little while?).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 05:21:23 am by ndchristie »
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Offline hsn2555

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #31 on: June 11, 2009, 08:42:26 am
ndchristie

awesome, i see you know how to speak arabic and how its words are pronunced, really interesting.  :y:
but in case you don't know,I'm an arabian muslim guy, and the arabic is my native language. so don't worry about the translation's part.
Faris Assahraa' ,means (the desert's knight) as (The desert's rider) .which the knight is definite

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I suggest something simpler like the desert rider (al faris sahra'i), the rider in the desert (al faris fissahra') or the rider from the desert (al faris manissahra').
*The desert rider : Faris assahra' فارس الصحراء
*The rider in the desert : Al-Faris fe assahra' ,which could be (Faris(ُ ) fessahraa') فارسٌ في الصحراء
*The rider from the desert : Alfaris min assahra', <-- it's not suitable.( Fairs(ٌ ) min assahraa' ) is more suitable فارسُ من الصحراء
it can't be Al-Faris Assahrawi because assahrawi leads us that he completely lives in a desert,or like a desert race car.
and if i'd go with (Al)-Faris, it'd be written alone ( Al-Faris - The Knight) which ease the desert idea.




here you can see how the arabian soldiers functionally look. but mine isn't a soldier, he's doing the play and everything hiddenly in order to get to the responsible man for all what's happening.


i might take a bit of this one, you see how sharp it is ?

Arabian Nights puns, also known as one thousand and one nights, it's inspiring .

==
Mathias

i'm definitely gonna change his head, which is gonna take a bit of time, i'm also going to change his legs,foots positions.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 08:54:15 am by hsn2555 »
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Offline ndchristie

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #32 on: June 11, 2009, 05:01:54 pm
Heh, I got shut down!  Right down to a picture of 5 men and no horses and a big sign above their head saying (فريس) :yell:  That's a really great lesson though.  I've actually saved all this for the examples.
Do you mind if I ask a few questions for my own reasons?
How does the knight become definite without al- or written diacritics like you have in the last few examples?  Is it purely by it's relationship to assahra'?
I always wondered how to continue out of a word ending with a hamza as in Assahrawi.  I know you aren't using it, but could you write it out? (i'm not sure exactly what letter combos a-w-i means).  Is it generally "w" or is it like those other hamzas, which can change sound with the letters around them?  What I wouldn't give to go somewhere where these things were just lived and spoken naturally rather than studied as rules and systems...
It's great that you have a relationship to Arabia far beyond what my university has been able to offer.  I'm envious.  And I'll stop reading to you out of books what you can look around to see :).

Good to see you've got a northern (syrian? perhaps even persian?) reference to balance out my berbers.
If you're looking to round out the references, i suggesting looking for the elite guard as well, which were called (unfortunately, because it makes them impossible to find) "غلام" warriors.  Maybe they were sons of noblemen?  Or perhaps there is another meaning aside from "boy" that I don't know.  I don't know how late you want, but janissaries will come to prominence in turkish lands about the 1430's.
It might pay to keep in mind also that even in Saladin's time, when arbia had well-established wealth and military presence, the "Ghazi" made up the bulk of the army and this term generally referred to dirt-poor brigands with limited military training and more often than not no home to go back to.  The usual depiction (in italian and byzantine illustrations) is a fighter with an unbelted tunic, simple round shield (of the buckler type, not the large perisan sort) and a spear or a short, gently curving sword.  Short bows were also prevalent.  Other depictions have a heavy, cloth-belted garment over the tunic, kinda like a western surcoat with short sleeves or a highly padded bathrobe.  Armor was rare, and produced largely in urban areas and ancient centers of industry (damascus, antioch, tyre, fars, sidon).  The favored weapon of arabian elite as always been the crescent-shaped axe designed specifically for breaking well-armored opponents but which could also take your hero's head without concern :P.


Edit! - I found some scans of one of my good books on my harddrive.  I wish i could bing the est up but my scanner is broken so these old ones will have to do:



These are centuries apart on the one hand, but on the other hand what they say as arabian armies 600-800 will continue to be true into the 15th century for rural forces.  The "Islam" page shows those jackets which are the bathrobes I described, accomplished or professional soldiers (i mean, half of them are wearing chain underneath) - they have no militia or peasant levies here.  Even though the art seems a little childish, they're drawn by one of the leading military researchers of our grandparent's generation (back before it was "cool" to hate muslims).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 05:37:47 pm by ndchristie »
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Offline hsn2555

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #33 on: June 11, 2009, 11:25:22 pm
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Heh, I got shut down!  Right down to a picture of 5 men and no horses and a big sign above their head saying (فريس) yell  That's a really great lesson though.  I've actually saved all this for the examples.
it's not فريس fiyrs.. it's قريش - Quraish ..

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How does the knight become definite without al- or written diacritics like you have in the last few examples?  Is it purely by it's relationship to assahra'?
we call it (Edhafa - additament) which is a grammatical rule.Faris As-sahraa' it's an additament ,Faris is the additive word ,As-sahra' is additive to word. means "yea, that guy is the desert's knight ;the knight of the desert." we don't add (Al) to the first word because we know him/it, we add (AL) to the second word.
another example : The Pixelation's prince --> Ameer Al-Pixelation أمير البكسليشن

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I always wondered how to continue out of a word ending with a hamza as in Assahrawi.  I know you aren't using it, but could you write it out? (i'm not sure exactly what letter combos a-w-i means).  Is it generally "w" or is it like those other hamzas, which can change sound with the letters around them?  What I wouldn't give to go somewhere where these things were just lived and spoken naturally rather than studied as rules and systems...
oh, i thought you meant assahrawi صحراوي ,which is an adjective, but it seems like you meant ( الصحرا(ء with the hamza which is a noun. there are more than one hamza, but the one in assahraa' is the singled one, which is put at the end of the word.
you can't say (assahra(a'o)) or (assahra(a'i)) when they're placed at the end of a sentence or a title.
Assahraa'a <<-- Fat-ha
Assahraa'o <<-- Dhama
Assahraa'i <<-- Kasra

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It's great that you have a relationship to Arabia far beyond what my university has been able to offer.  I'm envious.  And I'll stop reading to you out of books what you can look around to see
xD

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Good to see you've got a northern (syrian? perhaps even persian?) reference to balance out my berbers.
berbers (persian people)'s clothes' style was actually similar to the arabian, being persian traders selling goods and slaves at arabian bazaars   usually caused them to be getting some epithets and clothes style from eachother .
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If you're looking to round out the references, i suggesting looking for the elite guard as well, which were called (unfortunately, because it makes them impossible to find) "غلام" warriors.  Maybe they were sons of noblemen?  Or perhaps there is another meaning aside from "boy" that I don't know.  I don't know how late you want, but janissaries will come to prominence in turkish lands about the 1430's.

غلام means (a boy),غلمان (boys) were known as servants. according to the scans you posted i see you're talking about the 15th century,Andalusia <3 i like it.
yet i am not going for it, i'm going back to the 7th century.
and i don't see any arabian sword.they all don't have the originality of the arabian swords.
i think they're mongrel ones.

here are some scans (of series of books of an encyclopedia . the book i took the scans from talks about the world's civilisations ) showing the arabian clothes during the 5th century.
portraits :-

An arabian manager reading a massage loudly to a group of people .

an arabian travler .

An arabian leader/ prince. /faris ,taken as a rank as well as an adjective here.

scenes :

an arabian camel rider.

An arabian horseman/knight/rider

A battle's scene shot, called poitiers .

anyway,i'm supposed to be studying now.
I have exams to study for, lots of studies !!! omg. so i'll be gone for a while ,i might not be able to post anything during these three weeks.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 11:30:12 pm by hsn2555 »
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Offline ndchristie

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #34 on: June 12, 2009, 01:46:46 am
Heh, this is fun.

I think I was still talking about صحراوي, being confused about how the noun form would become the adjective form, as with nationalities.  Or maybe I am just confused :P.

Poitiers was fought by the Ummayads against what would become the Holy Roman Empire, the bulk of their forces were western Muslims (berbers mostly) and slaves with the exception of the home-grown elite guard.  The second page i posted is of the proper time frame but it's also i think more generic, with the red lances still being a national symbol in morocco (which isn't really Arabia :P).

So little is documented about the first caliphates that it's almost impossible to research them.  The rest of the world largely had ignored the region until that point.  the Ummayads though are vey well documented and flamboyant and they are the ones who took the fight for Islam all the way here!
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Offline Gil

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #35 on: June 12, 2009, 03:12:08 am
Is that page talking about the city of Poitiers (as in the Charles Martel battle you mention in your last paragraph) or is there a person called Poitiers too?

This thread is gold.

If the last images are some representative of actual clothes during the era, I'm beginning to think the design of the hero might be okay. I'm assuming that the gear he's wearing is indicative of any desert-going commoners in any age though. I'm not sure I like the black cape, the design seems to call for something else. Either the black needs to return in the rest of the clothing or the color of the cape needs to be brought together with the sand colors (brown?)

Also, beware of contrast! Your art has very strange contrast curves, with almost no contrast contradicted by gamma-heavy black.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #36 on: June 12, 2009, 05:25:05 am
Is that page talking about the city of Poitiers (as in the Charles Martel battle you mention in your last paragraph) or is there a person called Poitiers too?

The battle of poitiers took place north of the town, on the road to tours, the last-standing bastion of catholic france.  Had it fallen, no urban center stood to hold the muslims from invading all the way to Britain in the north, or into pagan germany, allowing them to come at byzantium and italy from east and west, likely conquering or at least severing/encircling the christian world.  The franks represented the only remaining christian power at that time outside Byzantium, with the british isles dissolving in civil strife under norse invaders, italy also a series of tiny warring states and the goths+visigoths all but broken into other tiny factions (the lombards, who would form northern italy, the vandals, who had already fallen to the moors, etc etc).  The victory, a now-textbook case of why never to charge heavy cavalry up wooded hills (and why not to commit your reserves early - mass attack means mass victory or mass rout, in this case it was a rout) successfully broke the muslim advance, giving much-needed spirit to the frankish tribes who united more strongly that day than ever in history.  they repelled the muslims out of fance and laid the grounds for the carolingian empire, which would establish catholocism in france and germany and provide support to andalusian/celtiberian aragon, castile, gascony, navarre, and portugal.
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Offline hsn2555

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #37 on: June 12, 2009, 01:51:28 pm
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Poitiers was fought by the Ummayads against what would become the Holy Roman Empire, the bulk of their forces were western Muslims (berbers mostly) and slaves with the exception of the home-grown elite guard.  The second page i posted is of the proper time frame but it's also i think more generic, with the red lances still being a national symbol in morocco (which isn't really Arabia Tongue).

as Poitiers was fought in Paris
ummayads (bani ummayah بني أمية) marched beyond Andalusia to the france ,they built up an army by gathering slaves and berbers along their marching. yup
Ummayads had the biggest marine armada. <-- Randoms xD

we had studied all the islamic history in school (including the Caliphates starting with Rashidun الخلفاء الراشدون
passing by Umayyads الاموي,Abbasids العباسي,Ottomans العثماني ,to the End of the Caliphate نهاية الخلافة.)
i'm going to read those books once again right after i'm done with my finals.

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Is that page talking about the city of Poitiers (as in the Charles Martel battle you mention in your last paragraph) or is there a person called Poitiers too?
poitiers was name of either a place or a city(, i'm not sure), located in paris.

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I'm assuming that the gear he's wearing is indicative of any desert-going commoners in any age though.
as anyone would assume.

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Either the black needs to return in the rest of the clothing or the color of the cape needs to be brought together with the sand colors (brown?)
the matter of colors is another issue, good point though.

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Also, beware of contrast! Your art has very strange contrast curves, with almost no contrast contradicted by gamma-heavy black.
i've been cautioned about that before xD.

ndchristie, your histroical knowledge is much needed in such issues. i really appreciate it.
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Offline Gil

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #38 on: June 12, 2009, 05:51:52 pm
Yeah, I knew the part about the battle at Poitiers. As a kid I was pretty heavily into Carolingian, Merovingian, etc history. Something about those post-Roman parts of history. They obviously shaped the whole region I live in, that might be it.

I'm pretty impressed by your knowledge of old world history ndchristie. I have a great game storyline lying around featuring teutonic and templar knight orders that you might find interesting.

hsn2555: Poitiers, Tours and Paris are actually still a pretty fair distance from each other. As ndchristie noted, it was a case of extreme luck for Europe that the Ummayads were stopped there.

I don't think they had the strength to hold the entire region of France, so it would have just ended in turmoil, but as you can see in the southern part of Spain, it might've affected Mediterranean culture a lot.

As for the art, would you like a palette edit? I can try to pull the colors together a bit more...

Offline hsn2555

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Re: Arabian Knight

Reply #39 on: June 12, 2009, 07:20:04 pm
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I have a great game storyline lying around featuring teutonic and templar knight orders that you might find interesting.
You've just found the right person.

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I don't think they had the strength to hold the entire region of France, so it would have just ended in turmoil, but as you can see in the southern part of Spain, it might've affected Mediterranean culture a lot.
they'd be able to go further than where they were at if they axed the gaiety sense and were more careless about sumptuous stuff, tempting .The part of spain you're talking about (when was included to Arabia) was called Andalusia.

to be honest, i actually was not going to give a big attention and be strict to make this games' objects basing on historical facts,
but now i'll be punctual to keep it stand the right way.

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As for the art, would you like a palette edit? I can try to pull the colors together a bit more...
that'd be great
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