AuthorTopic: GR#003 - Spritework (Nudity) - Sprite Process Critique  (Read 20536 times)

Offline EvilEye

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Taking another break to do some art. Feel free to comment.

-SPRITE-

Sketch:



Progress:

>>>>>>>

-PORTRAIT-

Reference:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w104/chris_6713/p3.gif

Sketch:

This first sketch took a while and I wasn't happy with the result ( too rigid and boring ). I am posting it just for the hell of it.



I did another one which was more dynamic and decided to use it instead.



Progress:

>>>>>>>>>>

In-game screenshot:

« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 03:55:27 pm by EvilEye »

Offline Shrike

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #1 on: March 29, 2009, 11:19:16 pm
Good drawing.

One thing that immediately bugs me is the wing color; first of all, I feel like it's too light, and make it something other than blue, maybe black, because right now it blends with the hair immensely.  Perhaps a dark... something.  Red maybe, the whole piece is rather light.  The wings should be made something dark IMO.

Sprite has strange shading;  perchance a bit too sparse.  Not sure, edit soon maybe.

Good work.
Later
Shrike

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #2 on: March 29, 2009, 11:24:10 pm
I finished coloring it and reduced the contrast. Hows it look to you guys?

Offline Shrike

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #3 on: March 29, 2009, 11:28:09 pm
Critique still applies from my last post.   :lol:

Nice job, I like the sprite.  But do make the wings black, or a dark color.  Perchance more contrast on the sprite?

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #4 on: March 29, 2009, 11:57:51 pm
Here's some black wings for you then. Changed around the colors again.

Offline TrevoriuS

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 12:03:33 am
You have a very strong angle in the middle of the right upper leg, and a more round shape at the calves in your sketch. I like the contrast of these 2 occurences, as well as te stylishness of the sharp edged leg to begin with. Considerable to bring it back in?
Further I recommend you to define some hip-bone and work on the hair to give it more texture.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 12:51:19 am
Ok, think I got the calve and the hips. Not sure what you mean by more hair texture. Hard to do at that size. Maybe show me with an edit?

Offline heyy13

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #7 on: March 30, 2009, 01:17:39 am
Wing edit. Currently it looks really insubstantial and the inner curve has verry harsh angles. This is one direction you could go to fix that. I love the body though. Good work. : )

Offline Helm

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 01:45:47 am
Here's critique.

You do not gain from having worked from a high resolution cg image because it does not help you think like a pixel artist.
At this resolution, how powerful is a single-pixel fat line? The black lines outside overpower the soft sading inside (squint your eyes) and they invalidate it. It's like it doesn't exist. The pixel clusters are merging into a big blob of yellow.

The problem is further exacerbated by that, due to following the cg image you have created a lot of 'connection points' where the outlines of various forms on different planes converge on the same spot, and flatten the image. Look where the left wing touches the hair and the other wing. Look where the long hair touches the legs. What is in front? What is in the back?

You're not shading as if your forms is made of pixels. You're shading as if the pixels and the forms are separate things. You have in your mind visualized the forms from the cg and are resisting in using your colors to make the whole thing MERGE into something made of pixels, pixel art. The contrast is borrowed from the reference and as such doesn't work. You are lacking darker range because the reference is done like comic art. Black lines and a light middle shade for the body, more or less. This won't work for pixel art of this size, of this subject matter, of this aesthetic. You'll have to sculpt it with a full range of color. For instance think of the back leg, why is it almost the same value as the fore leg? Shouldn't they be separated with shading so the player knows what they're looking at?

A big part of the problem I see here is that from checking the png I see you're not actually working much like a pixel artist. You have shades that are underused in just a few pixels, you have a broken alpha mask that you simply don't need for something made of 16 colors like this. Your methods are obstructing you from becoming a pixel artist. What is your goal from using pixels to do this sprite? You need to switch mindsets if you really want to use pixels for these small sprites.

This image is extremely challenging to properly shade without arriving at selout hell because of that there are so many curves to convey in such a space where a single pixel row worth of difference is too steep a move. It takes masterful skill to get it to work both on black and white backgrounds without using black outlines or selout. Selout is not my taste, but why didn't I use black outlines, you might ask? Because your image in not made from outlines and fill-ins, it's made of PIXEL CLUSTERS and they need to be addressed as such. Pieces of shading conveying volumes under light, outlines only diminish the womanly form here.

Simplify the wings, even go with pure black if you like (though I like the ambient blue personally), the more they merge with the hair, the worse for the piece.
Shade as if you're doing pixel art. I can't explain this any further. It's different from when you're shading something with pixels that in your mind is still a CG image. Avoid the banding issues you have, work on your curves as much as possible.



edit: also wanted to mention that at this size the reference image betrays you and it mostly looks like she's an amputee, better have the arm extended I'd say. In the bigger CG version it could work, here, more clarity is needed.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:48:31 am by Helm »

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 02:48:46 am
That's an interesting edit Helm, but its a wild deviation from my style. There are a few spots where I see some improvement though.

I think I get the gist of what you are saying. Translating the sketch into pixels as accurately as possible was indeed my goal. Your saying this is a problem?

Heres an edit that should fix the wings ( I hope ). Thanks to hey13 for pointing that out.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 02:51:57 am by EvilEye »

Offline Helm

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 02:50:57 am
What is your style?

If your style doesn't work with pixels well, is it the fault of the pixels, or the fault of your style?

When you draw in photoshop, use the means photoshop provides. When you do pixel art, make art that utilizes pixels to their outmost.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #11 on: March 30, 2009, 02:55:49 am
What is your style?

If your style doesn't work with pixels well, is it the fault of the pixels, or the fault of your style?

When you draw in photoshop, use the means photoshop provides. When you do pixel art, make art that utilizes pixels to their outmost.

The edges are darker and there are no black outlines. This just doesn't look right to me.

I like what you did with the hair though. Are the wings better?

I want a second opinion on the arm. Does it looked chopped off to anyone else?

Offline Dr D

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #12 on: March 30, 2009, 03:02:52 am
I wasn't thinking it knowing what the pose was originally, and probably wouldn't notice it and nod it off, even if I didn't.

But further analyzing it, it does look amputated.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #13 on: March 30, 2009, 05:48:11 am
I tried redrawing the arm, but the whole pose was drawn with the idea of the arm being a certain way. I would have to change the whole pose to fix it :yell:

But I did do some minor updates, taking into account a few things said by helm.

Offline NaCl

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #14 on: March 30, 2009, 06:52:33 am
Hey EvilEye, cool sprite. The only problem that I can see is that some of the forms are hard to distinguish. Like the arm, the color seperating the arm and the torso are so light it is a little bit of a strain to see exactly what you are looking at. I threw some of the darker colors there, and inbetween the legs. Also, the hair and wings are close in color and a bit hard to tell apart, so I moved the hair and wing color a bit apart.



It's a pretty minor edit but it's all I can see thats wrong with it... keep up the good work

Offline politopo

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #15 on: March 30, 2009, 08:48:45 am
what a nice girl here we have... but in my opinion, the right feet is too little and breaks the dynamic line that the origina piece had,
I did a small edit to show you what i mean, I just enlarged it a little on the bottom left side.

I hope it comes helpfull.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #16 on: March 30, 2009, 02:29:42 pm
Did some minor edits based on the suggestions above.

Hopefully the arm is a bit clearer. It may just be one of those things you can't do anything about :blind:

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 02:33:45 pm by EvilEye »

Offline hotnikkelz

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #17 on: March 30, 2009, 03:47:02 pm
The black outline on her right side looks so harsh to me  :-\
Hmm i'll take a shot at it later on and get back to u. Helm's edit is a good one i think, where the forms are concerned (although more chiseled compared to your softer contours) BUT i think by the bottom of the legs looks rather congested. The proportions of her left calf and shin seems off.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #18 on: March 31, 2009, 04:16:25 am
Did a very minor update on the sprite. I will call this done for now.



I am starting on the portrait. Posted the reference etc on the top post.

Offline HughSpectrum

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 01:37:33 pm
Since you prefer to use black outlines (hey, I do too), may I give a suggestion to make the transition from the harsh, dark black to the lighter colors smoother?

Edit to show:

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #20 on: April 01, 2009, 03:38:49 am
I dunno kitten the contrast between the sprite and the outlines doesn't really bother me that much.

Howabout some help on the portrait instead.



Too contrasted?

*EDIT*

Finally starting to get somewhere halfway decent.



*EDIT*

Getting there... Mess with something long enough and eventually it will look OK.



*EDIT*

Update



*EDIT*

My thread seems to have died. Noone has any opinions on the portrait?

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:09:21 am by EvilEye »

Offline politopo

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #21 on: April 03, 2009, 07:35:26 am
The pose you chose is nice, but it is not clear, try starting from scratch drawing volumes of anatomy (possibly a larger view)
another things that could , would be to move the hair away from her body as she just rotated her head, it would add a dynamic effect that could improve much the piece.

Offline NaCl

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #22 on: April 03, 2009, 10:28:30 am
Hey EvilEye, this piece is shaping up well. I like the new hair a lot. Also, the face itself is steadily improving. The main problem is that the neck is rotated at a crazy angle, and so it is not immediately apparent that she is looking over her shoulder. It first looks like her upper body is all messed up. I think the shoulder would look better turned around, like this:



I'm actually into the over the shoulder pose, but her face just doesn't seem to be at the right angle (get up and try to turn your head like that). Also, try and see the body as if it is facing us, then it suddenly becomes crazy, like an optical illusion. That alternate way of seeing it is going to be how a lot of people initially see it, and that will hurt the piece overall.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #23 on: April 05, 2009, 08:46:34 pm
Took a little break :blind:



Well I guess I ended up with the original pose anyway.

I changed the colors around a little. Not sure if it helped.

*EDIT*

On a roll now. Finishing touches.




*EDIT*

Well I think its done. Opinions?



*EDIT*

Added a screenshot from the game engine
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:26:29 pm by EvilEye »

Offline tehwexxl0rz

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 11:42:08 pm
Done?! AA time plz? ???

Offline EvilEye

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Re: SpriteWork ( partial nudity )

Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 01:06:14 am
Ok then, did some AA and a few minor touchups.



*EDIT*

One more edit.



There are still a few things that bother me but I will call this done for now.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 03:56:56 pm by EvilEye »

Offline EvilEye

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[WIP] More Characters

Reply #26 on: April 10, 2009, 06:13:38 am
Redoing my wizard art.

Sketch:



Progress:

>>>


Already did the portrait ( no I am not pixeling this one ).




In Game Screenshot:

« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 06:46:38 am by EvilEye »

Offline Shrike

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #27 on: April 11, 2009, 03:40:11 pm
No!

Sort of strange..  Why does he have to book out when he's not reading it?  Either have him looking at it or just make it so he holds it closed.  Also the hat as it is looks a bit comical with it pulled down over his face.  I would life it up a bit.  And reverse the coloring of the hat and cape, it looked better the other way around.

And wtf is going on with his arms?  They're like stubs, where you've put the hands indicates a very uncomfortable position.  Loosen it up, specifically the arm holding the staff.

Good luck!
Shrike

Offline Malor

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #28 on: April 11, 2009, 07:31:16 pm
No!



And wtf is going on with his arms?  They're like stubs, where you've put the hands indicates a very uncomfortable position.  Loosen it up, specifically the arm holding the staff.


I think I have to disagree with you on that point, I think the hands are fine, however you might want to add an elbow or something to the arm holding the staff, to give it more depth.
Quote from: Adarias
I'm not going to pretend this is a small task either; certainly none of us here can claim to have accomplished it.  it's the realm of masters.  still, it's what we all have to try for.

Offline Atnas

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 08:37:00 pm
I disagree as well... And I think the book is fine open. I think it's better it's open than closed, actually. I'd like to see some real folds on the turquoise robe, and if it's not conflicting with the other sprites, maybe a hint of some fingers?

Offline JonathanOfDrain

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #30 on: April 12, 2009, 03:21:32 am

<- Mine | Yours ->
You have quit a few extra colors you could easily clean up. AA'd parts and might have found a solution to that fingers problem. Tried showing some indications of a face. I think it just blends in with the beard.
Clean up your color count and try AAing a few parts and I think you'll fix a few problems. I did a few small things that I can hardly notice. Zoom in and find anything you like. I think you can make a more attractive looking hand than I did.

Good luck and great work so far.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #31 on: April 12, 2009, 06:17:47 am


Tried to fix some issues mentioned above.

Played around with his hands a bit. Should look more natural.

How do the folds look now Atnas?

Not sure about switching the hat and cape color Shrike, looks decent to me the way it is. Of course, if you want to do the work for me :P

Since I am not working in a paletted mode sometimes the colors get screwed up a bit. Tried to clean it up so I didn't have unneeded colors floating around.

Added a game screenshot.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 06:47:15 am by EvilEye »

Offline kaio

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #32 on: April 12, 2009, 08:07:09 am
Maybe it's just me, but somehow the black outline is bugging me. It just doesn't fit the style  :crazy:

Offline Dr D

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #33 on: April 13, 2009, 12:53:26 am
I just don't feel the mixed rendering styles, you have some sprites and/or portraits painted, and some pixelled. Unless I'm wrong and you're going to pixel them all, why did you choose to make it that way? It makes it seem as if you are unsure of what you want to do, or don't care for consistency.

Offline EvilEye

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #34 on: April 13, 2009, 03:59:57 am
I just don't feel the mixed rendering styles, you have some sprites and/or portraits painted, and some pixelled. Unless I'm wrong and you're going to pixel them all, why did you choose to make it that way? It makes it seem as if you are unsure of what you want to do, or don't care for consistency.

When you have a ton of art to do, consistency is not a huge issue. Hell, I threw in some art I did years ago that had nothing to do with the game at all.

The pixeling is mostly just for fun and to see if I could do it fast enough to make it viable. After around 5 or so sprites I can say its definitely NOT viable within my time limit. But its mildly entertaining. That said, I probably won't be pixeling any more for a while since I am in crunch time for the next release of my game.

Offline Voodoofusion

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #35 on: April 14, 2009, 02:38:50 pm
I also think the book open is fine. And he doesn't need to be looking at the book just because it's open, because perhaps he just read a line out of the book for memorization and is now focusing on the enemy. One thing to consider is maybe having him hold the staff out a bit further for a more epic, striking pose.

Offline CharlesGabriel

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #36 on: April 16, 2009, 09:58:38 am
I also think the book open is fine. And he doesn't need to be looking at the book just because it's open, because perhaps he just read a line out of the book for memorization and is now focusing on the enemy. One thing to consider is maybe having him hold the staff out a bit further for a more epic, striking pose.

I agree. If we judge it that he just memorized an spell he's about to cast, then a more threatening pose towards the enemy will look much better. Really, I understand some of the points that people mentioned that could be improved, but I totally disagree with many of the things that people didn't like... I don't consider them critical at all. This a nice piece, very well done character in my opinion, this character reminds me of this style someone made:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Milano-Cat/3319/muz/002.html

About the consistence part, I don't think it matters at all... you can use both Artwork and Sprites, there is no rule anywhere that says you have to make your own game X or Y way... what matters most is how it is executed, let's say do the sprites match well with the scenery and the art portraits? etc... you get my drift.

Offline Dr D

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Re: [WIP] More Characters

Reply #37 on: April 16, 2009, 05:41:57 pm
About the consistence part, I don't think it matters at all... you can use both Artwork and Sprites, there is no rule anywhere that says you have to make your own game X or Y way... what matters most is how it is executed, let's say do the sprites match well with the scenery and the art portraits? etc... you get my drift.

Of course there isn't, and I wasn't trying to imply there was. But there are always ways to improve, and that's what you probably want to do if you want your products to be more successful and popular. In my opinion, consistency is better than inconsistency. Both EvilEye's paintings and pixels are well-done, but it would likely be even better if he stuck to one style at least for characters and portraits in their own group. For example, a pixelled sprite fighting a painted sprite is NOT consistent, in my opinion, and rather redundant.