AuthorTopic: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!  (Read 173953 times)

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #140 on: July 13, 2010, 03:44:27 pm
To add to the concept of beautiful clusters: the more beautiful a cluster the less the artist should feel they have to hide it with antialias and blending and other tricks. Therefore it follows that the fewer colors an artist has to work with, the more they should gravitate towards beautiful clusters.

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #141 on: October 15, 2011, 01:20:50 pm
Here's an unsettling thought that recently came to me.

Ordered dither always leads to a degree of banding.

Think about it, the way an

XOXOXO
OXOXOX
XOXOXO

50% dither pattern is made essentially brings attention to the grid, lowers the percieved resolution in order to gain some texture or be used for buffering.
This goes for the denser, toching types of dither.

Then again, noise dither might not promote banding, but it looks careless.

So here's a small selection of patterned dithers that do not contribute to banding. Easing from one to another is bound to prodouce some, but them the breaks.



Anyone who understands the theory could supply more patterns.

Offline ptoing

  • Moderator
  • 0101
  • *
  • Posts: 3063
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • variegated quadrangle arranger
    • the_ptoing
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/2191.htm
    • View Profile
    • Perpetually inactive website

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #142 on: October 15, 2011, 07:05:26 pm
I don't think that any of those increase the perceived resolution compared to 50% dither. You can still see what is the smallest unit and that the gaps in many of them are the smallest unit as well, thus giving away the resolution. And depending on what you are doing they would work less in terms of blending colours.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #143 on: October 15, 2011, 09:02:46 pm
I disagree. The issue with touching pixels in dithering is not only that they give away the minute unit, but that they touch in such a way that they show off the grid that they're aligned on. The examples I provided above certainly do show that there are pixels, but they are patterned without magnifying the grid.

Offline ptoing

  • Moderator
  • 0101
  • *
  • Posts: 3063
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • variegated quadrangle arranger
    • the_ptoing
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/2191.htm
    • View Profile
    • Perpetually inactive website

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #144 on: October 15, 2011, 10:36:44 pm
Not to the same extent as 50% dither perhaps, but they still show the grid imo.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #145 on: October 15, 2011, 11:31:29 pm
The way I see it, elements arranged with equidistance do not necessarily connote a pixel grid. It's a simple thing to explain, it's at the core of how I pixel nowadays:



Equidistance is a powerful design tool. But (the worst) banding occurs when things aren't just equidistant in some abstract level, but are actively aligned at the edges.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 11:36:15 pm by Helm »

Offline ptoing

  • Moderator
  • 0101
  • *
  • Posts: 3063
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • variegated quadrangle arranger
    • the_ptoing
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/2191.htm
    • View Profile
    • Perpetually inactive website

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #146 on: October 16, 2011, 08:32:39 am
I know exactly what you mean. They do not show the grid as blatantly as the oldschool dither stuff, but for me they still very prominently show the smallest unit and thus to some degree the grid.

I would still say that 50% dither is very nice for blending, esp if you use colours which are not too far apart in value.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #147 on: October 16, 2011, 03:50:44 pm
It is but then it's designed to be close to imperceptible. It's an interesting give/take.  If you're trying to hide dither, perhaps close colors and 50% are the best you can do (and in the past on blurry tvs it would not give anything away, really) but if you're trying to both use it as a blending device and as a texture device and you don't want banding...

Offline Ryumaru

  • Moderator
  • 0100
  • *
  • Posts: 1669
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • to be animated soonly
    • ChrisPariano
    • View Profile

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #148 on: October 19, 2011, 12:46:00 am
It is but then it's designed to be close to imperceptible. It's an interesting give/take.  If you're trying to hide dither, perhaps close colors and 50% are the best you can do (and in the past on blurry tvs it would not give anything away, really) but if you're trying to both use it as a blending device and as a texture device and you don't want banding...

I think you have done too much to apply your definition of banding to the traditional 50% dither without taking into consideration the fact that actual banding has a distinct unappealing look to the edge of a pixel cluster where as the 50% dither ( if also done in a relatively solid pixel cluster) will never give off that same striking appearance to the edge.
Your distaste in banding is justified, and the definition that you have created is mostly just fine, but it just so happened that you made a connection to that definition with the traditional dither and you're trying to fix a problem that really isn't a problem imo. Eliminating the grid seems like a moot point as most of your work ( while made with the intention of aesthetically formed pixel clusters) often showcases the grid. I know different pieces have different purposes but between your signature and avatar, " eliminating the grid( the actual pixel grid, not in the way a banding edge duplicates forms and makes the grid apparent)" does not seem to be a point of yours.

Your pattern dithers are nice, but they are just that: pattern dithers. The traditional dither, while allowing for texture, is also a bridge between two colors and our ability to notice it as 50% one color and 50% the other attempts to make our mind perceive it as one blended color. Pattern dither always seems to suggest smaller repeating details such as scales or pores on the skin, and while this is useful in representation or stylistic render, it fails at the main purpose of the traditional dither which is to make two colors into one.

Edit: I skimmed over the last part of " as a blending device and as a texture device and dont want banding". My argument still stands that to you the 50% dither is only banding by your definition and not by actual practice, but I think pattern dither has always been the obvious choice if you wanted both texture and blending so it should be the go to anyway- but not for the sake of perceived avoidance of banding.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 12:54:55 am by Ryumaru »

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Ramblethread! A brainstorm approaches!

Reply #149 on: October 19, 2011, 02:04:53 am
The thing with banding is that the more you become attuned to it, the more you can see it. At your point in your pixel journey you might think I'm overreacting to 50% dither blocks banding. I understand that. But I'm not.

Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't use 50% dither, I might use it too. I'm just saying it bands. People can create whatever they want, with as much banding as they want for all it concerns me.