AuthorTopic: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint  (Read 36903 times)

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #80 on: March 02, 2009, 09:01:22 am
It's a pretty clear-cut issue from my vantage really. You're free to have - and to voice, in appropriate channels - any opinion you want in Pixelation, as long as you're polite about it. For example if anyone posted in the Off Topic thread that they think Ptoing is annoying or that Mia is irresponsible or that Jad is too pretty or whatever, no action of moderation would take place. If anything I would expect these individuals to challenge those statements in person, their time permitting. Keep in mind that this is not the standard on the Internet. Most places where you criticize the moderation == instaban. It is unfortunate than most of the times where these sorts of dialogs occur they do trickle down towards clear name-calling and other pathologies and therefore strikes are administered. If someone can make a polite case for their concerns then it will be dealt with respect. Calling people hoity toity artfags and not retracting when asked to politely is not a good starting point for such a discussion, I hope it is now clear. I'll let the Xelados matter rest as he is no longer around to state his case, but that was his choice.

The arch you build between matters of administration here in Pixelation and in PJ is one which you base on matters of perception. The problem with this parallel in my opinion is that a dubious or unfair call here can be challenged in the proper channels and generally there very rarely are insta-bans and other such drastic decisions taken. Generally I would hope it to be true that even the staunchest Pixelation critics would agree that though perhaps we are too hard-assed for their liking, we are not unfair. We use the three strike system exactly for that purpose. The sheer volume of problematic calls I've witnessed in PJ in terms of what is accepted (and to lesser degree what is not) in the gallery makes this a logistical problem more than anything. It's not that you guys are more unfair, it's that you make a huge amount of calls per week and the unfairness stands out more. There aren't channels for refuting bad calls and most importantly, the procedures through which someone is dealt with are not public. Not to say that they should be completely public (there is certainly a point to take things to PMs) but they aren't enough so that the users of PJ (and I stress, not the users of the *forum* in particular) could be able to tell on which terms something was allowed to exist or not. Wikipedia has this great feature where if an article is in distress or facing deletion one can follow the whole history of what went down in the 'talk' page of that article. Perhaps something similarly public should be put in place in PJ? This way you can simplify this concept of 'outside counsel'. Just make a talk page for each piece that is actively facing deletion and let all interested argument for or against and then have a moderator make a final call after the thread has ran its course and/or a set amount of time (a week?)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 09:04:21 am by Helm »

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #81 on: March 02, 2009, 12:50:48 pm
I was informed that Xelados had removed the insult from his prior post before he was banned and therefore I have lifted the ban - and I'll remove that one strike as soon as I find out how to do that exactly. Apologies for hasty action. Let's carry on.

Offline Panda

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #82 on: March 02, 2009, 12:59:57 pm
and I'll remove that one strike as soon as I find out how to do that exactly.

Done :0

Offline The B.O.B.

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #83 on: March 02, 2009, 03:15:41 pm
To keep it on topic...

The sheer volume of problematic calls I've witnessed in PJ in terms of what is accepted (and to lesser degree what is not) in the gallery makes this a logistical problem more than anything. It's not that you guys are more unfair, it's that you make a huge amount of calls per week and the unfairness stands out more.

   This is the reason why people complain more about Pixeljoint, than Pixelation: The volume of users that are active at Pixeljoint, are much larger than Pixelation. Of course, there are several reasons why, but it's easier to understand that with tons of users in a gallery site,   especially most being new to the site, or new artists entirely, we get several "middle child" users, who want nothing more than attention, or to be the popular one. So it's far easier to be critical of Pixeljoint, as we don't have time to isolate and deal with most user issues, or to evaluate their being there. If we spot a problem with a user, we try to come up with a group decision, and decide whether this person will grow as a user, out of their "troll" status, and start being a better person for the community as a whole, or will they continue their current ways.
   We try our best to calm some down and solve the problem in a nice manner, via direct pm's with the users in question. Some times it works, and some times it doesn't. I've seen public rants about this same conversation in the past, on pixeljoint in the chatterbox. Sane ones, actually. But when a moderator politely pm's this same user as to how we can help, I've seen these same sane users go across the line to insane, cursing us, using derogatory names, and whatnot in pm form, where only we can see what he/she says, not the general public. So it's easy to chastise the moderator team, when you can't see what lies behind the scenes.
   Where as here, at Pixelation, the user base is much smaller, with more active users who are a very tight knit, group. Helm, Panda, and Ptoing being one of the mods, are also fairly close with most of the active user base, here(though not all, and I've seen a recent bunch of new users, so I'm sure things may change in the future). Therefore, issues with new users, are easier to deal with, as the general user base understands the mindset of the website with what is and isn't allowed, allowing the mods less time to deal with the general user base, and more time to isolate the problematic ones much easier. And this hard-assery' is also what keeps most newer pixel artists away from this site, fearing how bad their art will be criticized(I've actually seen proof of this, when some users Pm me to help them with their art at PJ, and when I couldn't offer any more help, I'd ask them to go to our pj forums for assistance, or Pixelation, being a great site for critique. Majority of the time, they would say something along the lines of " No, I've lurked at pixelation before, I'm afraid those guys are a little too advanced for me, or may be too harsh on my work."). Now I hate to use the "numbers" game as an excuse, but you have to admit, it does come into play, sometimes.
   That being said, yes, PJ has some kinks to work out, but to be honest, most of the suggestions thrown out on this thread, have actually been thrown out secretly in our mod chats in the past. It was just a matter of indecision as to what may happen if we do so, as, I hate to admit, some of us mods there haven't been there that long(though we are coming into our own, and now starting to function like a great unit...a mechanical BEAST if you will), so enforcing such rash changes on the site, seemed a bit uncomfortable, as it's a phase of change most humans have a hard time adjusting to(again, I know pixelation can relate, as I remember some of the issues you guys had back then over the shift of powa'). We were used to the set rules we already had in place, which is why some of us were elected into the mod-squad to keep the site in track. So coming in there, and than hearing suggestion that we need to change some things severely was a bit over our head. We've however, decided, it's for the best now.

   Again, I'm sure this has all been said in this thread somewhere. I'm sure Pixelation and PJ mods differ on some aspects of the Pixel art, and where it's standards lie, but I'm hopeful that soon in the near future our definitions will get to the point where it matches, and a global understanding between all pixel artists, new and old, is met.

*ps, so after all this fighting, when do we get to the sweaty man-orgy? : P
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Offline ter-o

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #84 on: March 02, 2009, 05:33:17 pm
Quote from: The B.O.B.
Majority of the time, they would say something along the lines of " No, I've lurked at pixelation before, I'm afraid those guys are a little too advanced for me, or may be too harsh on my work.").

I personally fail to see how this is a bad thing? Eatpoo was in its glory days a good example of a forum where people actually would benefit being part of it (well to be honest, they were at times a bit TOO rude, which I don't think is an issue here. Here people would actually help you even more, by making paintovers and such.). I think if you want to be an artist but you're not willing to learn, or willing to accept that people will have opinions about your work every time you bring them to public, then maybe it's for the best that you make your art only for your mom or store it in a drawer. I don't think it's elitist to say that if someone can't take criticism, they should stay away, I think it's just true. If this place would change into an asspat community, everyone would suffer. If you just want praise about your work, there are places for that too, but I don't see it's here.

By no means the critique should be rude or otherwise degrading, just the opposite but even as hard as it is, you should be able to recieve criticism if you want to learn. I don't think Pixelation is a show gallery either. I think this applies also to the issues that Xelados has. Since some people have traditional training, of course they will bring out those points in their criticism, and I don't see why they shouldn't? One might even gain something if they would listen to those advices, no matter how personal and "unique" style they have.

These are of course only my personal opinions about what Pixelation is and isn't so...
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 05:35:29 pm by ter-o »
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Offline The B.O.B.

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #85 on: March 02, 2009, 06:01:27 pm
@ter-o: Exactly. WE don't see critique as a bad thing, but newcomers do. Several don't understand that it's meant to help. Most take it as insults to their art. That, or they are painfully shy. Why do you think I always would ask them to come here for help in the first place?
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Offline ter-o

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #86 on: March 02, 2009, 06:07:47 pm
I say it's their loss. They will mature in time. As long as the c&c is polite and constructive, I don't see why this forum even should try to please everyone. It will help those willing to learn, and they deserve it.
I don't know everything, I just know everything else.
Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try. -Master Yoda

Offline Metaru

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #87 on: March 02, 2009, 09:00:32 pm
not like someone "deserves" critique, but rather have the attitude to take it as a critique and not as a ofense, to an extent of course.

 pretty much like what happened here.