AuthorTopic: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint  (Read 41159 times)

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #50 on: February 26, 2009, 01:44:45 pm
objective measures of things like: Amount of banding, Total Number of colors, Average colors per 16x16 tile, Random noise, overall contrast ratio, contrast ratio per tile (these are all metrics which are relatively simple to take).

These all might be objective quantifiers of measuring a certain thing, but definately not wheter something or not can be pixelart.

Amount of Banding: more to do with being new to the craft
Total Number of colors: As I stated before, good colourcontrol is a boon to pixelart but not necessary. You can handpick 100+ colours and put them manually, just not giving a damn about optimisation.
Average colors per 16x16 tile: How does this come in? I mean yes, you could see that something has a silly amount of colours in some tiles, but still, they could be placed by hand.
Random noise: Even this can be done manually and some people dither noisier than others.
overall contrast ratio: Pictures can vary a lot in contrast, within the same picture or between pictures. This can come also come down to things like artistic choice.
contrast ratio per tile: Same more or less.

You can not write a little tool that takes some measurements and then says Pixelart yay or nay!
You need people with good knowledge and judgement to make calls.
If a team of people who have that would look at all the 25k+ pieces in retrospect I think lots of shit would fall under the hammer of being not really pixelpushed.

I can think of quite a few people who have pictures in their galleries which pretty much blatantly disregard the rules (and I do not mean arbitrary nonsense ones).
Atm everything is just a tiny bit smelly and ambigious over there and ideally it would need a grand revision of everything in the gallery already. A huge and tedious task but ultimatly one that has to be done for PJ to keep believability.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline ter-o

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #51 on: February 26, 2009, 02:57:51 pm
So is using a wacom also prohibited? Since you really can't control the placement of each individual pixels if you're drawing loosely or painterly?

A bit exaggerated example but that's how this whole issue sounds to me. Even if I would always stick to the PJ rules by accident just because of personal preference, the mere fact that my picture could be rejected based on some vague rules which don't make any sense when looking at the spirit of pixel art, I don't think I would like to post anything to PJ, even if chased by undomestic equines. :D
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Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #52 on: February 26, 2009, 03:08:06 pm
So is using a wacom also prohibited? Since you really can't control the placement of each individual pixels if you're drawing loosely or painterly?

Of course it's not allowed, you must use a mouse. But then Mermaid comes along and says fuck mice, they are newfangled shit, you have to use the keyboard to pixel.

You see where I am going here :P
Also a wacom is not less accurate, the fact that it does not rest on the table makes it a bit more wobbly, but that is down to the person who holds it. And to make things more accurate you can always zoom, go technology.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Helm

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #53 on: February 26, 2009, 03:14:41 pm
First of all, Pixelblink, there is no animosity from my part towards you or really anyone. I don't have a problem with anyone person over this. I am talking about the managment of a website and how it could be improved. I think I've been constructive in my critique, but here's a recap:

1. Weed out your moderator base, if people come and go or are problematic, ditch them. When we did the same for Pixelation there was a lot of unpleasantness, but it was at the end, for the best. There should be no 'you're my friend' loyalty from a managerial point of view. Ptoing is my close friend but if I were away from Pixelation for 6 months or just logged on but didn't do anything you bet he would remove me from the mods. It is useful if there is a head mod that is level-headed and well... a bit German.

2. If you need more moderators, you should pick people whom have shown they have sound judgment on these matters, not just are hard-working or loyal. Making them go through a few test runs with some grey area pixel art pieces would help. Also they should never behave like assholes. I remember a lot of times where moderators of PJ were sarcastic or worse towards potential rule-breakers. This isn't cool. It looks cool at the time, but it really breaks trust.

3. Arrive to a sensible set of rules as to what is pixel art that doesn't rest upon knowing anything about the process, just the end result (while simultaneously really encouraging people to post workstages and references as much as possible), and make it clearly public. I'd rather if that set of rules was closer to the Pixelation standard, but even if it differs, just as long as it's application is consistent, I think you'll be fine. However the more strange your definition is, the more it will become inconsistent to practice moderation on top of it, as you see.

4. After this is public, train your userbase to understand these rules and then leave it up to them in some automated voting system to choose what is pixel art from the new images. This will alleviate a LOT of moderator grief over having to slog through stuff every day. They should only come in if they feel some piece that is pixel art has been unfairly sent back by the userbase.

5. Spend more time in your community discussing the merits of pixels and some learning instead of 'what music do you listen to?' and stuff like that. This might initially seem odd a suggestion, but a community must have a focus, if that focus is diluted, there start to become other concerns that become primary over its focus, like 'these are my internet friends and I can't break their hearts' and other such bullshit. If PJ is about pixels, then train the userbase to spend time on the boards talking about pixels.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #54 on: February 26, 2009, 03:38:42 pm
Well, I would remove you as a mod if you would just leave without any reason and not be reachable for ages. But yes, I would remove you.

Also, what is this talk about PB trying to find a copy of Promotion for some time now. FIND? How about downloading the trial from the Cosmigo website. It has some features removed (I think some animation stuff) and you wont be able to save stuff after 30 days, but it is very much functional in what can be done with it. And then if you pixel enough and really like it I don't think $78 is asked too much. Or get grafx2. Serisously?, finding?
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Cure

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #55 on: February 26, 2009, 04:40:44 pm
Our key problematic mod is gone now, and we’ve already begun investigating new moderators.  We take assholitude and judgement into account, believe me.  We’ve agreed that past mods have had some rather unsavory attitudes that have definitely hurt our image and our mission, and we don’t plan to repeat this mistake.  One potential candidate was discarded for just this reason.

I agree whole heartedly that our forums need more focus and less bullshit.

Offline Gil

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #56 on: February 26, 2009, 06:24:51 pm
What about consultants?

You could take external consultants, people you think have the right skillset to assist in decision making, and ask them to help out when a discussion over a piece arrises. They wouldn't actually be mods or have any moderator rights, they just sit in on some discussions and provide some help in decision making.

Right now I feel you have a very passionate and competent mod squad, but they lack the industry experience, longlasting experience and tool experience needed to run a site the size of Pixeljoint. These are not necessarily things that make you a better mod, but they cause the problems I perceive.

I don't doubt that you are willing to research new methods, but the question begs asking: how old is PJ? Why haven't you downloaded and tried the dirty tools already? Shouldn't you be studying what makes pixel art tick BEFORE becoming a mod of a huge pixelart gallery?

The discussion feels a bit like:

"We're open minded"
"Have you actually tried any advanced pixel programs?"
"No, but we were going to at some point, so that proves it"

Offline Ai

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #57 on: February 26, 2009, 10:58:04 pm
objective measures of things like: Amount of banding, Total Number of colors, Average colors per 16x16 tile, Random noise, overall contrast ratio, contrast ratio per tile (these are all metrics which are relatively simple to take).

These all might be objective quantifiers of measuring a certain thing, but definately not wheter something or not can be pixelart.

Amount of Banding: more to do with being new to the craft
Total Number of colors: As I stated before, good colourcontrol is a boon to pixelart but not necessary. You can handpick 100+ colours and put them manually, just not giving a damn about optimisation.
Average colors per 16x16 tile: How does this come in? I mean yes, you could see that something has a silly amount of colours in some tiles, but still, they could be placed by hand.
Random noise: Even this can be done manually and some people dither noisier than others.
overall contrast ratio: Pictures can vary a lot in contrast, within the same picture or between pictures. This can come also come down to things like artistic choice.
contrast ratio per tile: Same more or less.

You can not write a little tool that takes some measurements and then says Pixelart yay or nay!
Yes, that's exactly the point.  The above metrics are meant to help inform judgement, not to make judgement -- as I said, effectively part of the picture. 'Normal' range of these parameters would need to be calibrated over time. It's just a time saving device.

Quote
I can think of quite a few people who have pictures in their galleries which pretty much blatantly disregard the rules (and I do not mean arbitrary nonsense ones).
Atm everything is just a tiny bit smelly and ambigious over there and ideally it would need a grand revision of everything in the gallery already. A huge and tedious task but ultimatly one that has to be done for PJ to keep believability.
I have to agree there!

Still busy, write more later.
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Cure

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #58 on: February 27, 2009, 12:17:11 am
Just a note: if there are pieces in the gallery that blatantly disregard the rules- then report them!

Offline Metaru

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Re: Pixel purism and the PixelJoint

Reply #59 on: February 28, 2009, 04:56:08 am
it totally sucks that i lack the vocabulary to express myself as i would like, so i'd try to do my best.

for me, PJ is the the place to share/showcase and get a light "introduction" to the world of pixels. but Pixelation is the place to worship the true essence of this artform. to follow "the way of the pixel"(i didnt had to use that but i couln't resist). on my own, personal experience i do have to admit that if i ever wanted to improve and start racking knowledge, and get some serious improvement over my skills(and learn more about what i'm doing) i'd have to switch to Pixelation for what helm said in his point 5. PJ is a group of folks who gather around for having the same hobbie in common(making pixels), and eventually, for sharing the same jokes and stuff like that. nothing more, nothing else. i think the only reason because i don't start being more active around here is just because it would suck to be the new guy after all those years spamming nonsense over there. while i often refer pj as one of the most well known sites related to PJ with Pixelation, i never, ever would consider one above the another. it just doesnt make any sense to do such thing.

now, on the particular issue of the moderation(wich was the main point of this post), i must admit that all this issue started with one single twist of someone trying to impose this "purism" as the only option posible. considering how newcomers tend to absorb that kind of statements, this leaded to a complete and unnecesary wicthhunt that ended with the said piece deleted. i consider pixel art as a vehicle to present a concept in the same way i could chose to use color pencils or a photomanipulation or a song, therefore i feel like i can chose between limiting myself to use 16 colors and stick to MSPaint or simply go and use a dither brush in PSP, so for me the said statement about "purism" was completely retarded and so close-minded that it totally defeated the "art" part of pixel art.

i do see the moderation over PJ to be more focused to common sense rather than as a guide into what should and shouldnt(for the same reason all pieces who are submitted are allowed in the end by a mod). this requires also indeed a minimal knowledge of what is and whats not pixel art plus each one's personal opinion. i wont lie that i though i could take dogmeat's place in the moderation team, but i did realised i am no one to take that place for the reason i was banned a few days ago.

sorry if at any point i didn't make any sense, i did my best but its almost 2AM and lacking half of the words i needed to know didn't help.